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Tags jet fuel , north tower explosion , william rodriguez

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Old 10th September 2019, 05:41 PM   #1
MattNelson
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Removed from 9/11 Truth Movement FB Group

Thought y'all would get a kick out of this... me being kicked off the/a 9/11 Truth Movement Facebook group because of uttering... the truth, namely that the first plane hit the WTC BEFORE the explosions on lower levels.

That's in disagreement with the tale of William Rodriguez, as advertised by James Corbett in his latest "9/11 Whistleblowers" video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irNqB5N0o30
Multiple times we hear the myth of explosions before plane. (at 12:33, for example) I sent James an email, but I guess there's no recourse for me at Kevin Ryan's closed FB group. (That is not to say he personally banned me. He has moderators.)

I commented on the video and at FB:

Quote:
Other witnesses and an audio recording help to put the story together. The plane did in fact hit first. The explosions that followed 9 seconds later (as recorded by Ginny Carr on audio) are painstakingly discussed in my book and in my video. http://www.911conspiracy.tv/pdf/9-11...att_Nelson.pdf (see "9 Seconds") and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFjFfdYPHtQ (see Kenneth Summers at 22:40 for example). Other witnesses were confused about which came first, the explosions or the plane, so be sure to watch the witness across West St. at 6:51...
A couple hours later I noticed I couldn't view my post... or see if it was still pending review.

Quote:
Sorry, this content isn't available right now

The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in.
Willy felt the plane hit below (not an explosion) because the vibrations traveled through the steel at 5,000+ meters per second. A seismic event was recorded lasting 12 seconds.

I'm sure this topic has been discussed elsewhere. Instead of rehashing the basement/lobby explosions topic, we could probably link to other threads.

If you have a general comment on my book (260+ pages, 68MB PDF) "9/11 Debris: An Investigation of Ground Zero," there's already a thread for that: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=284475

So, heads up. Now thousands more people think bombs went off before the plane hit. I'll try my best to shoot down the myth.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:46 PM   #2
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Flat-earthers can't agree with each other, either.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:49 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Flat-earthers can't agree with each other, either.
It ain't flat! It's Oblate Flatoidal!
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:00 PM   #4
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I thought facebook was cleaning up fake news groups who spread lies.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
That's in disagreement with the tale of William Rodriguez, as advertised by James Corbett in his latest "9/11 Whistleblowers" video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irNqB5N0o30
Multiple times we hear the myth of explosions before plane.
Willie got it right way back when on the first anniversary, when he was interviewed on CNN:

Originally Posted by Willie Rodriguez
And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance.
BTW, back in the day (like around 2006) there were badges at JREF for people who had been banned from the Loose Change Forum. Ironically, I never got one, because I had already been suspended when they started banning people.
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Last edited by Brainster; 10th September 2019 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Thought y'all would get a kick out of this... me being kicked off the/a 9/11 Truth Movement Facebook group because of uttering... the truth, ....
Welcome to the Club. I moved into FaceBook posting about three years back as a challenge by a truther engineer who wanted a real engineer to debate WTC collapses. (An ISF colleague asked me to come. Silly me accepted the challenge. I've forgiven him.. but I'll preserve his anonymity.) So I joined the group, posted a bit of my CV for the job and the truther engineer disappeared over the horizon - no longer active. I should have left the scene ... but....

Recently 3 or 4 of us had the same FaceBook experience of being banned fro truther "echo box groups". The sort of hiding places where nearly all the still active truthers hang out. So I've been banned twice... so far.

On the first occasion by invite of a Truther Admin who - read this TWICE - wanted serious and honest debate in his Group and needed some knowledgeable types. He got three - a WTC collapse specialist, a highly qualified general science researcher and one of the most knowledgeable persons on the ME political history build up to 9/11.

Then a civil war broke out - treasonous revolution against the Admin who wanted to be honest. (Sort of... )

The second examples - more recently - was less dramatic.

In both cases I went by invite .. and departed by being banned in a purge following a "palace revolution".
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:24 AM   #7
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Rodriguez no longer believes any of that crap. Before I came here I used to post on the Screw Loose Change blogspot comments and Willie showed up to apologize and set the record straight about how he bought into a pack of lies thinking it would do some good.

He's a good guy. Here's a sample:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...st-debate.html

Make sure to read the comments because they're hilarious.

Back in 2007 Willie was condemned by the "No Planes" crowd as a Government plant because of his work with *GASP* James Randi:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...rodriguez.html

Anyway, Willie now lives in the real world today. Truthers who quote him are morons.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Thought y'all would get a kick out of this... me being kicked off the/a 9/11 Truth Movement Facebook group because of uttering... the truth, namely that the first plane hit the WTC BEFORE the explosions on lower levels.
...
I sent James an email, but I guess there's no recourse for me at Kevin Ryan's closed FB group. (That is not to say he personally banned me. He has moderators.)
...
Which "the/a 9/11 Truth Movement" Facebook group was this, exactly? I have been monitoring most of the large 9/11 Truth-themed FB groups, often from the outside, for some years now, though I am banned from some of the largest, including two groups both named "The 9/11 Truth Movement":
One run by "KenDoc", which has around 39,000 members today
One run by B. Rogers, which has around 7,350 members

I didn't know there's a group that can legitimately be called "Kevin Ryan's group".

Who is James?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Thought y'all would get a kick out of this... me being kicked off the/a 9/11 Truth Movement Facebook group because of uttering... the truth, namely that the first plane hit the WTC BEFORE the explosions on lower levels.

That's in disagreement with the tale of William Rodriguez, as advertised by James Corbett in his latest "9/11 Whistleblowers" video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irNqB5N0o30
Multiple times we hear the myth of explosions before plane. (at 12:33, for example) I sent James an email, but I guess there's no recourse for me at Kevin Ryan's closed FB group. (That is not to say he personally banned me. He has moderators.)

I commented on the video and at FB:



A couple hours later I noticed I couldn't view my post... or see if it was still pending review.



Willy felt the plane hit below (not an explosion) because the vibrations traveled through the steel at 5,000+ meters per second. A seismic event was recorded lasting 12 seconds.

I'm sure this topic has been discussed elsewhere. Instead of rehashing the basement/lobby explosions topic, we could probably link to other threads.

If you have a general comment on my book (260+ pages, 68MB PDF) "9/11 Debris: An Investigation of Ground Zero," there's already a thread for that: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=284475

So, heads up. Now thousands more people think bombs went off before the plane hit. I'll try my best to shoot down the myth.
Because sound and light and perhaps mechanical energy travel through different mediums at different speeds it is quite hard to figure out whether the explosions in the sub basement were simultaneous with the plane strike. I am thinking they were... and what happened was that the plane parts going through the tower severed the high voltage risers and plumbing risers too.... this caused a short and the short caused the circuit protection for the risers in the sub basement to explode. The time delay would have been essentially 0 as electricity travels at the speed of light and sound travels at less that 1200' / sec.

This short may also have caused shorts and explosions in the Con Ed substation. Recall that there were "explosions" reported at around the time of the AA11 plane strike in 7 wtc and people thinking it was a terrorist bomb evacuated the building. When Jennings and Hess arrived the building was virtually empty of people.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:48 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Because sound and light and perhaps mechanical energy travel through different mediums at different speeds it is quite hard to figure out whether the explosions in the sub basement were simultaneous with the plane strike. I am thinking they were... and what happened was that the plane parts going through the tower severed the high voltage risers and plumbing risers too.... this caused a short and the short caused the circuit protection for the risers in the sub basement to explode. The time delay would have been essentially 0 as electricity travels at the speed of light and sound travels at less that 1200' / sec.

This short may also have caused shorts and explosions in the Con Ed substation. Recall that there were "explosions" reported at around the time of the AA11 plane strike in 7 wtc and people thinking it was a terrorist bomb evacuated the building. When Jennings and Hess arrived the building was virtually empty of people.
Just a small technical glitch; I don't think electricity travels at the speed of light. Close, but not quite. Does't really detract from your point, though...but thought I'd get it in before any pedantic "but wait, that's not right" crap starts
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Who is James?
James Corbett, I presume.
Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
[...]
That's in disagreement with the tale of William Rodriguez, as advertised by James Corbett in his latest "9/11 Whistleblowers" video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irNqB5N0o30
Multiple times we hear the myth of explosions before plane. (at 12:33, for example) I sent James an email, [...]
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:08 AM   #12
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From what vantage point were witnesses able to hear the noise "before" the plane crash in the first place?

Just one of the many irrelevant info in the days and months following 9/11.

Hell, Bush thought he saw the plane hit one of the towers, something he didn't really witness.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just a small technical glitch; I don't think electricity travels at the speed of light. Close, but not quite. Does't really detract from your point, though...but thought I'd get it in before any pedantic "but wait, that's not right" crap starts
There are a lot of factors, but roughly speaking, electricity travels about 90% or so the speed of light. Still WAY faster than sound though!

And I never quite understood the fascination with "architects and engineers for 9/11" truth or whatever it's called. Architects? Sure. CIVIL Engineers? Maybe. But I'm an EE and I have no more expertise in buildings falling than Joe the Plumber.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Which "the/a 9/11 Truth Movement" Facebook group was this, exactly? I have been monitoring most of the large 9/11 Truth-themed FB groups, often from the outside, for some years now, though I am banned from some of the largest, including two groups both named "The 9/11 Truth Movement":
One run by "KenDoc", which has around 39,000 members today
One run by B. Rogers, which has around 7,350 members

I didn't know there's a group that can legitimately be called "Kevin Ryan's group".

Who is James?
I have seen KenDoc there as an admin, but I believe there's another admin. Probably that group. I don't think the group is even visible until you are in it. Once inside, you can't "share" anything outside the group. Kevin Ryan posted often.

James Corbett.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
I have seen KenDoc there as an admin, but I believe there's another admin. Probably that group. I don't think the group is even visible until you are in it. Once inside, you can't "share" anything outside the group. Kevin Ryan posted often.

James Corbett.
Consider yourself fortunate and move on, never to return. Those of us that propose the event, without CD's, drone planes, missiles etc. unfortunately won't convince the hard core, maybe influence the fence sitters.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
I have seen KenDoc there as an admin, but I believe there's another admin. Probably that group. I don't think the group is even visible until you are in it. Once inside, you can't "share" anything outside the group. Kevin Ryan posted often.

James Corbett.
KenDoc is probably Admin in more than one group.
What you describe is a secret group - which I would not be able to monitor. What I monitor are either public or closed groups. On a closed group, if you are not a member you can't see any contents (and if members share content, non-members will find the shared content "unavailable"), but I can see the name, a minimum bit of history, the Admins, and how members the group has.

Do you perhaps still have a URL somewhere? Perhaps to a page that you no longer can open - but the URL is still there? Perhaps that URL contains some identifier that I can use.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:03 PM   #17
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It is common for groups that have woo beliefs (911 truth, physic powers, religion) to ban anyone who does not agree with them. Sometimes it takes a little while. Then they work out they are losing the debate and start issuing bans and removing posts.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
KenDoc is probably Admin in more than one group.
What you describe is a secret group - which I would not be able to monitor. What I monitor are either public or closed groups. On a closed group, if you are not a member you can't see any contents (and if members share content, non-members will find the shared content "unavailable"), but I can see the name, a minimum bit of history, the Admins, and how members the group has.

Do you perhaps still have a URL somewhere? Perhaps to a page that you no longer can open - but the URL is still there? Perhaps that URL contains some identifier that I can use.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2204686781/
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
It is common for groups that have woo beliefs (911 truth, physic powers, religion) to ban anyone who does not agree with them. Sometimes it takes a little while. Then they work out they are losing the debate and start issuing bans and removing posts.
Yeah, a couple of years ago I made a comment on AE 9/11 Truth Facebook page, and I was banned from posting comments within the hour.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Mmm. looks like a "closed group". An interesting "rogues' gallery" of admins and mods.
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:21 AM   #21
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Thanks for clarifying the speed electricity travels... But for all practical purposes for the distance involved it was as good as instantaneous.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:11 AM   #22
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Removed from 9/11 Truth Movement FB Group

JSanderO:

Yeah, close enough as makes no difference. But you know someone had to be pedantic about it


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Old 15th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #23
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People in the base would hear the impacts, most likely like an explosion sound, through the steel in 1/20 of a second after impact, and the through the air sound would be almost a second later.

Thus you have the bomb in the basement before impact of the flight, but after the impact. And we have simile again for 9/11 truth gullible followers with the "bomb in the basement" syndrome.
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Old 15th September 2019, 09:31 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Yep, that's KenDoc's group. The largest 9/11-Truth group of them all, by quite a margin. Had been hovering around 38,700 members for a while (2018/19), jumped over 39K in July+August, and then suddenly grew by almost 1,000 members in just 5 days last week to crack 40K in more than 5 years at least.
Unfortunately, I don't have an inside look into it. I guess I need a new FB account one day... or borrow one XD

Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Mmm. looks like a "closed group". An interesting "rogues' gallery" of admins and mods.
Hmm haven't look at it in quite a while.
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just a small technical glitch; I don't think electricity travels at the speed of light. Close, but not quite. Does't really detract from your point, though...but thought I'd get it in before any pedantic "but wait, that's not right" crap starts
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
There are a lot of factors, but roughly speaking, electricity travels about 90% or so the speed of light. Still WAY faster than sound though!
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Thanks for clarifying the speed electricity travels... But for all practical purposes for the distance involved it was as good as instantaneous.
I don't know the particulars about when the sounds and actions happened in this event, so I'm not going to argue which came first. But I caution anyone who does to consider some variables.

Vibrations can travel through solid objects (steel, earth, whatever), arrive somewhere, and generate an air-wave sound. Under the right conditions, such sound may appear to arrive before the merely air-wave sound.

It's also possible for sounds to reflect off of hard, solid objects (a NY skyscraper, for instance), and arrive at the listener's ear later than the original. (This may explain the sounds reported coming from the Dallas "grassy knoll" -- not two shooters, but one shooter and an echo from the concrete wall.)

Add all these well-known physical phenomena to memories that may be faulty and testimony that may be distorted by the "fog of war", and it takes a lot of chutzpah to claim, without serious analysis, that event X occurred before or after event Y.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
...
Add all these well-known physical phenomena to memories that may be faulty and testimony that may be distorted by the "fog of war", and it takes a lot of chutzpah to claim, without serious analysis, that event X occurred before or after event Y.
Particularly when the witnesses are in a windowless basement and have not the slightest idea what the loud sounds they are hearing could possibly be. Rodriguez (or insert any other name down there) heard a bang and a boom and a rumble, and perhaps another boom and another rumble. And at the time could never have guessed that a plane had crashed, that fuel was deflagrating, that elevators were falling, and what not.

They learned all that MUCH later.

Who know what preliminary hypotheses they formed in their heads. "Bombs ..."?

And then they had to unlearn and make sense of - what then was already - their former memories. It is nigh impossible that this recollection is true to the original sensations.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:25 PM   #27
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His first description, from a phone interview with CNN aired on 2001-09-11 at 13:30, talked about a rumble, not an explosion:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../11/bn.24.html
I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his body. All of the skin.
Remember how truthers give so much importance to the first descriptions? Except when it's inconvenient, maybe.

ETA: My guess: first rumble = plane impact; second rumble = elevators crashing.

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Old 15th September 2019, 03:58 PM   #28
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We should be able to agree that:

the crash MIGHT cause shorts and circuit protection in the sub basement exploding (almost instanteously)

air born sound of the plane crash arrives at street level or below in about 1 second after the impact

vibrations and sound transmitted though the structure would arrive AFTER the plane strike.

This is confusing to the observer.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:19 PM   #29
Redwood
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattNelson
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2204686781/
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Mmm. looks like a "closed group". An interesting "rogues' gallery" of admins and mods.
You'd think that a group dedicated to "The Truth" (TM) would be wide open rather than closed. Or at least, if it were dedicated to private discussion, it would be about how to reach out to the public at large and especially to engineers. There are FB pages dedicated to civil engineering that have hundreds of thousands of followers.

Truthers never post to these pages. The explanation is left to the Truther.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:52 PM   #30
Brainster
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Rodriguez no longer believes any of that crap. Before I came here I used to post on the Screw Loose Change blogspot comments and Willie showed up to apologize and set the record straight about how he bought into a pack of lies thinking it would do some good.

He's a good guy. Here's a sample:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...st-debate.html

Make sure to read the comments because they're hilarious.

Back in 2007 Willie was condemned by the "No Planes" crowd as a Government plant because of his work with *GASP* James Randi:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...rodriguez.html

Anyway, Willie now lives in the real world today. Truthers who quote him are morons.
Let me just echo the point about him being a good guy. We used to talk over the phone back in the day and he was always honest and straightforward with me. He managed to put his life back together and used his 9-11 experience as a motivational speaker. I have photos around somewhere of him addressing large crowds.
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