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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM   #401
Giordano
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Double irony in regard to this thread: for most of their existence DAR actively prohibited African Americans/Blacks from joining. I am not certain what percent was required to invalidate one's application. However for many years in the South "one drop" black blood" (any black ancestry) was considered enough to define one as black legally and socially. Of course Warren would be considered without question Native American if this type of standard was applied to her!

This also illustrates how slippery, complex, and often erroneous definitions of race are. The central problem of course is that "race" is a meaningless term in genetics. The classical definitions of race do not match up with the actual science. Some alleles tend to be more common in some groups than others and this can be used as an approximation of ancestry. But there is enormous variation within each group, people outside that group may nonetheless share some of the same alleles as those inside, and the boundaries are very vague. Most people are a complicated mix of different ancestries. To try to say that having 1/4 some "race-related" alleles qualifies you as that race, but 1/8 or 1/16 etc. doesn't is meaningless as well as arbitrary; it simply doesn't work like that. The genetic data cannot be interpreted that way.
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Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe you forgot your complaint that she lied. You just said that her ancestry is a matter of fact, which means that it wasn't a lie on her part.
I've made it as clear as can be that I don't consider her ancestry sufficient to claim her race as American Indian. I've never once denied her fractional makeup or even inferred it. Pay just a whit of attention please.
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Old Yesterday, 11:00 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I've made it as clear as can be that I don't consider her ancestry sufficient to claim her race as American Indian.

(.................sigh....................)


HOW MANY TIMES NEED YOU BE TOLD THAT'S IRRELEVANT AND INSUFFICIENT TO WHETHER OR NOT WARREN LIED?

I'm quite satisfied with the fact.....yes, I know it to be a FACT.....that you don't think she has sufficient ancestry to be Native American. It astounds me that you continue to remain ignorant of the fact that what you think is absolutely irrelevant to what she thinks, which is really the determining factor of whether she lied or not.

It really is that simple!

You are wrong. Just man up and admit it. It'll be OK.
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Old Yesterday, 11:19 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
I don't see where we disagree on this.
Weren't you saying it would have been better for her not to have done the test? That was the part I disagreed with. I think it was handled poorly but ultimately successful in delegitimizing the complaints.
No. I said just the opposite. I think you misread this part:

"While, imo, that makes her claim completely credible, her detractors naturally jumped on the "10" generations detail and then on her claim of being NA on paperwork over 30 years ago. As I said, that was her mistake. If she had not done so, this whole ludicrous thing would have disappeared long ago. "

The DNA test was not a mistake; putting "Native American" down on her professional paperwork was her mistake.
Quote:
I think the best thing she can do is get ahead of it with tribal endorsements. She's clearly the best option for native american interests, but she needs to get them to say so and that'll take the wind out of all the Pocahontas talk. **** yeah she's Pocahontas, so what?
I agree.
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Old Yesterday, 06:20 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I've made it as clear as can be that I don't consider her ancestry sufficient to claim her race as American Indian.
So, what?

This has been pointed out multiple times now, but disagreeing with someone doesnít mean they are lying.
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
So, what?

This has been pointed out multiple times now, but disagreeing with someone doesnít mean they are lying.
This doesn't follow in the conversation. Your opaque communication style grows tedious. I've made my position clear. You don't agree. I get it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:49 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This doesn't follow in the conversation.
Of course, it does. That's what people have been telling you for pages now.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Your opaque communication style grows tedious.
Opaque? You appear to be the only one who hasn't understood what I've been saying.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM   #408
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People are stll talking about this? Who cares? I sure as hell don't.
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Old Yesterday, 08:30 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Opaque? You appear to be the only one who hasn't understood what I've been saying.
OK then. In this sentence...
disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean they are lying
Who is the someone and what is the point of disagreement?

Add: Opaque isn't quite right. More like muddled.
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Old Yesterday, 08:55 PM   #410
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I was away enjoying not reading his thread and I missed this post. Pardon me!

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
[1] There are no members who do not meet the minimum requirement, because it is a minimum requirement for membership.

[2] Again, that is an odd way of putting it. The name is just a descriptive name. They take pride in their ancestral connection and identify with it.

[3] Not even a little bit. Even if they were named the GGGGGDAR, the situation would still be analogous. They would still be an organization that identifies and takes pride in their "fractional" ancestral connection to a particular group.

[4] That is a matter of opinion.


I'd say the parallels are obvious. As I have said many times now, both identify, in part, with an ancestor roughly the same generations removed. (I'd argue that DAR members do even more so than Warren, in my experience, but that's neither here nor there.) If you label Warren's identification with Native Americans a lie, should you not similarly label the DAR's identification with people involved in the Revolutionary War?

You were unaware of the DAR before this conversation, correct? What about the Daughters of the Confederacy, a similar but a few generations less distant from the ancestors in question? Warren's identification with a distant ancestry is neither unique or even uncommon. I suggest that you're thinking it is has more to do with your unfamiliarity with these kinds of people than it says anything about Warren.
Now I understand. And I also understand why I didn't understand. You're equating celebration of fractional identity with answering a specific question on an official form?!? Wow. We're back to apples and meatloaf here. Swear to Odin this didn't occur to me.
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
People are stll talking about this? Who cares? I sure as hell don't.
Nobody really, myself included. It's a conversation about the nature of a lie and political tribalism.
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Old Yesterday, 11:22 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This doesn't follow in the conversation. Your opaque communication style grows tedious. I've made my position clear. You don't agree. I get it.
Your position that Warren specifically lied on a form my lifetime ago is clear yes, and with many repetitions. Any evidence supporting it, a reason for it to be a lie, you have failed to even address.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This doesn't follow in the conversation. Your opaque communication style grows tedious. I've made my position clear. You don't agree. I get it.
Posters here have given you reason after reason after reason, with plenty of supporting evidence as to why your position, that Warren lied, cannot be proved to be correct. Unless you know what was in her mind when she filled out that form, you can never know for sure.

But like a conspracy theorist, you hand-wave away everything that everyone says for no other reason than it doesn't match YOUR personal view. Its seems to be a hill that you are prepared to die in no matter what.
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Old Today, 02:36 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I've made it as clear as can be that I don't consider her ancestry sufficient to claim her race as American Indian.
And we've told you over and over that this is irrelevant to the question of whether she lied.
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Old Today, 03:15 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
OK then. In this sentence...
disagreeing with someone doesnít mean they are lying
Who is the someone and what is the point of disagreement?

Add: Opaque isn't quite right. More like muddled.
You disagree with Warren about what constitutes race. That doesnít mean she was lying about hers.
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Now I understand. And I also understand why I didn't understand. You're equating celebration of fractional identity with answering a specific question on an official form?!? Wow. We're back to apples and meatloaf here. Swear to Odin this didn't occur to me.
Again, I think you are being disingenuous. If your only defense of your position is sarcasm, you have no argument. Is “it’s common sense!” coming along soon?

ETA:
What I’m actually doing is pointing out that the underlying assumption, namely:
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
is false. Lots of people do it and it is a socially acceptable practice and neither considered dishonest nor even that unusual.

Can we all agree that the DAR is not being dishonest in their self-identification with their fractional ancestry?
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Old Today, 04:08 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You disagree with Warren about what constitutes race. That doesnít mean she was lying about hers.
Does he disagree, though?

Does Warren claim to be Native American these days?
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Old Today, 05:50 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Posters here have given you reason after reason after reason...
I'm highly unimpressed by certain of the arguments that some of the more active posters have put forward. Your blatantly tribal approach to things, not just in this thread, serves as a prime example.
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Old Today, 06:01 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does he disagree, though?

Does Warren claim to be Native American these days?
Indeed.

The only evidence we have of Warren's contemporary stance on this is her apology. Seeing as I have expressed precisely zero disagreements with Warren, here or anywhere else on the forum, funny enough it's apparently Upchurch who has a disagreement with her.

@Upchurch -- that's why your post made no sense to me. You jumped into an exchange that Belz and I were having. Because I've expressed no differences with Warren, I wasn't clear who you were referring to. Sharpen your pencil, stop knee-jerking to false conclusions, and we'll be fine.

Add: Actually, as theprestige infers, we also have the evidence that she no longer self-identifies this way.
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Old Today, 06:22 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Your position that Warren specifically lied on a form my lifetime ago is clear yes, and with many repetitions. Any evidence supporting it, a reason for it to be a lie, you have failed to even address.
Help me out here. Are you in the camp that she wasn't truthful, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie? Or are you in the camp that she was truthful? That's the magical thinking camp. That's where if you're passionate about something, and you click your heels three times, that makes it so.

(I would enjoy it if camp1 would hash things out with camp2 and let me be a reader for a while.)

Camp is a figure of speech by the way. Gotta be careful around here.
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Old Today, 06:34 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
... Can we all agree that the DAR is not being dishonest in their self-identification with their fractional ancestry?
Yes. Furthermore, since they make it clear their ancestry is micro-fractional, they didn't do what Warren did.
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Old Today, 08:31 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I wouldn't address anyone that way, largely for reasons I've already pointed out. Namely, I have no personal connection to Africa. I'm just guessing what the asterisked word was, but I was under the impression that that is much more an American* term than an African one, and I certainly have no African American connections, as per my DNA test. There is a greater historical context why someone like me should not use that particular term.
I have deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Think Mariana Trench. A considerable percentage of my posts on this forum, ever since the day I joined, stand as evidence of this.

So here I am, a Caucasian with ancient African roots and a deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Yet if I go around greeting people with "Whazzup my *****" (the slang form of the N word) I'd be full of more BS than the cow ranch next door. And I bet that most posters would agree.

Why would I be full of BS? Anyone feel free to answer.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Help me out here. Are you in the camp that she wasn't truthful, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie? Or are you in the camp that she was truthful? That's the magical thinking camp. That's where if you're passionate about something, and you click your heels three times, that makes it so.

(I would enjoy it if camp1 would hash things out with camp2 and let me be a reader for a while.)
There's one more to add to your straw man camps. The one where she where what she said was true but also a lie.
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Old Today, 09:18 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yes. Furthermore, since they make it clear their ancestry is micro-fractional, they didn't do what Warren did.
Warren didn't make it clear her ancestry was micro-fractional? Was she claiming her parents were Native American? Her grandparents?

Or are you saying that she because she did not specify every time, she was being unclear?
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Old Today, 09:23 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I have deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Think Mariana Trench. A considerable percentage of my posts on this forum, ever since the day I joined, stand as evidence of this.

So here I am, a Caucasian with ancient African roots and a deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Yet if I go around greeting people with "Whazzup my *****" (the slang form of the N word) I'd be full of more BS than the cow ranch next door. And I bet that most posters would agree.

Why would I be full of BS? Anyone feel free to answer.
I want to add a casual comment that isn't intended to advance an argument nor rebut one. Can't be too careful hereabouts.

Add to my African-American credentials that I'm friends with approx 1/3 of the African Americans in my huge WA state county!
There are about 3 in total. The county is huge geographically. Welcome to the American Redoubt.
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Old Today, 09:44 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
So here I am, a Caucasian with ancient African roots and a deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Yet if I go around greeting people with "Whazzup my *****" (the slang form of the N word) I'd be full of more BS than the cow ranch next door. And I bet that most posters would agree.

Why would I be full of BS? Anyone feel free to answer.
Wait, African roots or African-American roots? Which one are you claiming?
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Old Today, 10:42 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I would need to know what you think those category errors are to do so.
I already explained once. Here, in detail:

(1) I was dismissive of policies/rules of tribes, more generally known as groups. See post 249.

(2) Later on, I mentioned I was looking forward to finding out the opinions of Native American individuals who I'll be working with soon. See post 347.

(3) You called this out. See post 349. Why should I care what these individuals think when I'm dismissive of tribal policies/rules?

This is textbook category error. An individual is not a group. It's irrational to saddle an individual with every aspect of the group they belong to (except for immutable characteristics). This is true as a matter of logic. This is true in real life.

Thinking of individual people that way is narrow-minded and obnoxious, but that's besides the point.

It took way too long to dredge those links ... to explain stuff I suspect you already know.

I have to work long hours over the next 6 weeks. I won't be posting much. I regret that our exchange turned acrimonious, in particular my contribution.
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Old Today, 11:44 AM   #428
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Let's just say for argument's sake that Elizabeth Warren lied many years ago. Lets say she has lied a few times since. That still puts her behind Trump by tens of thousands. Recent analysis has Trump lying 13 times every day. More than 10,000 since he took office. I think that makes Warren human and Trump a POS.
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Old Today, 12:13 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm highly unimpressed by certain of the arguments that some of the more active posters have put forward. Your blatantly tribal approach to things, not just in this thread, serves as a prime example.
That's your answer? Attack the arguer instead of the argument?
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Old Today, 12:29 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Help me out here. Are you in the camp that she wasn't truthful, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie? Or are you in the camp that she was truthful? That's the magical thinking camp. That's where if you're passionate about something, and you click your heels three times, that makes it so.

(I would enjoy it if camp1 would hash things out with camp2 and let me be a reader for a while.)

Camp is a figure of speech by the way. Gotta be careful around here.
I'm in camp 3... lies and untruths are not the same. A lie requires intent on the part of the teller... untruths do not. This is a well understood fact of the English language - something that intelligent, well educated people understand. If you say something that you believe to be true, but later turns out not to be, then that is not a lie, that is a mistake.

Given the above is undeniable fact, then my interpretation is that Warren acted in good faith in the belief that what she wrote down was the truth. At a time before DNA testing, she had every reason to belieive her family story, and no reason at all to doubt it....and as it turns out, what she wrote down was in fact a half truth (or partly true if you prefer).

However, your other assertion, that there is a bright line beyond which you cannot claim you are of a certain "race", and that this bright line applies to all races, is just a completely spurious fabrication, made up by you, to try to defend the indefensible. Even if you just take Native Americans, they cannot even agree between individual tribes where that bright line is, or even if one exists at all.
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Old Today, 01:01 PM   #431
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And round and round and round we go........
I get dizzy just reading this thread.
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Old Today, 01:33 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm in camp 3... lies and untruths are not the same. A lie requires intent on the part of the teller... untruths do not. This is a well understood fact of the English language - something that intelligent, well educated people understand. If you say something that you believe to be true, but later turns out not to be, then that is not a lie, that is a mistake.

Given the above is undeniable fact, then my interpretation is that Warren acted in good faith in the belief that what she wrote down was the truth. At a time before DNA testing, she had every reason to belieive her family story, and no reason at all to doubt it....and as it turns out, what she wrote down was in fact a half truth (or partly true if you prefer).

However, your other assertion, that there is a bright line beyond which you cannot claim you are of a certain "race", and that this bright line applies to all races, is just a completely spurious fabrication, made up by you, to try to defend the indefensible. Even if you just take Native Americans, they cannot even agree between individual tribes where that bright line is, or even if one exists at all.
Well said.

Who's to know for certain that family lore is accurate? My father use to say we were related to a famous baseball manager for whom we share the same last name. But genealogy searches don't seem to support this claim.

He also use to tell us as children that he walked miles in the snow in Iowa to school. And then on a visit to his hometown he pointed out the home he grew up in and his school. They were maybe a block away from each other.

It was then I realized my father sometimes told stories. For years I doubted that he was on Omaha beach on D-day. He never said much about it other than he was there. You see my Dad was in the Navy. I couldn't see how this could be true. Given what happened there, I always thought this was probably a huge lie. It made me dislike him more than I did. It turns out he was. He was stationed on an LST (A tank landing craft) that sunk on the beach. He was one of two survivors from that boat. It cost me a pretty penny to find this out but I'm glad it wasn't another story.
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Old Today, 04:06 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does he disagree, though?

Does Warren claim to be Native American these days?
If you would pay attention, you would realize the issue is what Warren thought 30 years ago.
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Old Today, 04:07 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

Add: Actually, as theprestige infers, we also have the evidence that she no longer self-identifies this way.
And as I just noted, that's absolutely irrelevant to whether she lied 30 years ago.

This ain't that hard, man.
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Old Today, 04:10 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Help me out here. Are you in the camp that she wasn't truthful, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie? Or are you in the camp that she was truthful? That's the magical thinking camp. That's where if you're passionate about something, and you click your heels three times, that makes it so.


Actually, if you truly understand the definition of a lie, that's actually rather accurate: If you believe it, it's not a lie.

Whether the statement is objectively true or not is absolutely irrelevant.
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Old Today, 04:13 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I have deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Think Mariana Trench. A considerable percentage of my posts on this forum, ever since the day I joined, stand as evidence of this.

So here I am, a Caucasian with ancient African roots and a deep affinity for African-American cultural forms. Yet if I go around greeting people with "Whazzup my *****" (the slang form of the N word) I'd be full of more BS than the cow ranch next door. And I bet that most posters would agree.

Why would I be full of BS? Anyone feel free to answer.

Apples and oranges, bro; apples and oranges. Unless you think simply identifying as a certain ethnicity is equivalent to using racial slurs.
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Old Today, 04:15 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Actually, if you truly understand the definition of a lie, that's actually rather accurate: If you believe it, it's not a lie.

Whether the statement is objectively true or not is absolutely irrelevant.
Then again, if you can't show it to be objectively false, it is relevant. Totally.


Person believes something to be true + you can't show that it objectively isn't = not a lie
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Old Today, 04:16 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I want to add a casual comment that isn't intended to advance an argument nor rebut one. Can't be too careful hereabouts.

Add to my African-American credentials that I'm friends with approx 1/3 of the African Americans in my huge WA state county!
There are about 3 in total. The county is huge geographically. Welcome to the American Redoubt.

The fact that you claiming African ancestry would be a lie (because you actually don't believe it) does not imply anything about another person, her claim, and her beliefs. You might as well claim you like fried chicken, therefore Warren likes fried chicken.

Two different people, man. Two different people. This is news to you?
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Old Today, 04:18 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I already explained once. Here, in detail:

(1) I was dismissive of policies/rules of tribes, more generally known as groups. See post 249.

(2) Later on, I mentioned I was looking forward to finding out the opinions of Native American individuals who I'll be working with soon. See post 347.

(3) You called this out. See post 349. Why should I care what these individuals think when I'm dismissive of tribal policies/rules?

This is textbook category error. An individual is not a group. It's irrational to saddle an individual with every aspect of the group they belong to (except for immutable characteristics). This is true as a matter of logic. This is true in real life.

Thinking of individual people that way is narrow-minded and obnoxious, but that's besides the point.

It took way too long to dredge those links ... to explain stuff I suspect you already know.

I have to work long hours over the next 6 weeks. I won't be posting much. I regret that our exchange turned acrimonious, in particular my contribution.

What a waste of time--All is irrelevant to what Warren believed and how she identified herself.

Too much of a coward to confront me proving you wrong? I guess some prefer ignorance. I hear it's a good place to wallow.
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