Protest in France: "Jews get out".

Virus · 31st January 2014, 12:47 AM

They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of that twit who does anti-Semitic performance art and invented a hidden Nazi salute.

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I AGREE

They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"

angrysoba · 31st January 2014, 12:54 AM

That's shocking stuff. I see they were also chanting about Faurison and saying that the gas chambers never happened.

What a bunch of merdeheads.

Virus · 31st January 2014, 01:23 AM

I see they don't even bother to disguise the Nazi salute anymore.

DC · 31st January 2014, 01:41 AM

aah look at our cultural superiority right there.....

L.Y.S. · 31st January 2014, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by DC

aah look at our cultural superiority right there.....

I was saying the same thing.

bluesjnr · 31st January 2014, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Virus

They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of

They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"

What is your position on this subject? Anti-semitism is alive and well all over the world. I'm sure you've heard of Brendan O'Connell and the Australian League of Rights^WP?

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I AGREE

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Virus

They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of that twit who does anti-Semitic performance art and invented a hidden Nazi salute.

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I AGREE

They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"

I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum"

Quote:

Here I must add that the structure of socialist economic thought is exactly the same as the structure of ant-Semitic economic thought: if anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools, socialism is the anti-Semitism of intellectuals.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.

angrysoba · 31st January 2014, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.

Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.

The ideological background is interesting. According to http://www.libertylawsite.org/about/ Liberty Law Forum is provided by Liberty Fund inc, described here.

Quote:

In his book The Assault on Reason, Al Gore says that between 2002 and 2004 97% of the attendees at Liberty Fund training seminars for judges were Republican administration appointees. Gore suggests that such conferences and seminars are one of the reasons that judges who regularly attend such conferences "are generally responsible for writing the most radical pro-corporate, antienvironmental, and activist decisions." Referring to what he calls the "Big Three," the Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment, George Mason University's Law & Economics Center (LEC), and the Liberty Fund he adds, "These groups are not providing unbiased judicial education. They are giving multithousand-dollar vacations to federal judges to promote their radical right-wing agenda at the expense of the public interest."
Liberty Fund has been cited as one of the endowed conservative foundations which laid the way for the election of U.S. president Ronald Reagan in 1980.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Fund

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.

It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals".

Quote:

... a group of left-wing politicians, led by Blum, Edouard Daladier, Maurice Thorez, Edouard Herriot, Daniel Mayer formed the Popular Front in November 1935. Parties involved in the agreement included the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Radical Party.

The parties involved in the Popular Front did well in the May 1936 parliamentary elections and won a total of 376 seats. Blum, leader of the Socialist Party, now become prime minister of France. Blum therefore became the first Jew in France history to hold this post.

Once in power the Popular Front government introduced the 40 hour week and other social reforms. It also nationalized the Bank of France and the armaments industry.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm

angrysoba · 31st January 2014, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals".http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm

No, but it appears to be his own elaboration on an older formulation, which is currently doing the rounds:

Quote:

In the late 19th century, the German Marxist August Bebel observed that anti-Jewish prejudice was “the socialism of fools”. From Marx’s plea for the withering away of Jewishness to the popular euphemistic references to “rootless cosmopolitans” in the Stalin era, the left has had, to put it mildly, a problematic relationship with the world’s oldest monotheistic religion. The French left’s relationship has been more difficult than most. During the revolution of 1789, Jews were attacked for clinging selfishly to their religious identity. Even an ardent Dreyfusard such as the socialist leader Jean Jaurès could still insist that “the Jewish race was consumed by a sort of fever for profit”. What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse to a fashionable, anti-globalisation, up-yours, them-and-us (“them” frequently being Jewish financiers and Holocaust memorialisers) coalition of radical Islamists, hip middle-class white Parisians, alienated black youth and Jewish-world-domination conspiracy theorists.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-anti-semitism

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 05:02 AM

@ angrysoba

Quote:

What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse

Interesting, but Léon Blum probably didn't see things that way last century, that socialism was "race-hate discourse"

Quote:

Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews. Campaigning as a Dreyfusard brought him into contact with the socialist leader Jean Jaurès, whom he greatly admired. He began contributing to the socialist daily, L'Humanité, and joined the Socialist Party, then called the SFIO. Soon he was the party's main theoretician.

Did he expound anti-semitism or race hate discourse as part of his theoretical contributions?

ETA

Quote:

Blum, however, was attacked by segments of the French far-right, for his Jewishness, while the Action française, far-right leagues and the Cagoule terrorist group engaged in antisemitic propaganda.

End ETA

By the way, I accept that Karl Marx was anti-Jewish on a personal level, as well as in at least one of his published writings (his own Jewish origin notwithstanding), but his disciples didn't follow him in this. See F Kaplan http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marx-antisem.../dp/2902702647 .

Polaris · 31st January 2014, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.

Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair?

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair?

Don't be silly. I have just quoted a source containing these words:

Quote:

Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews.

This "traumatic effect" was occasioned by the very fact to which I have alluded: that given the historical background, this Affair was particularly outrageous, as are more modern manifestations of antisemitism in France.

Dreyfus was an army officer, one of many Jewish officers. How could this happen in France? Russia, or Germany ... How many Jewish officers in their armies? Anti semitism there was less surprising; in France it was very shocking.

Quote:

On January 13, 1898, France’s leading novelist, Émile Zola, entered the fray with a polemic, J’Accuse, naming the officers responsible for the conspiracy against Dreyfus. It was hailed as heroic by the Left, outrageous by the Right, and provoked anti-Semitic riots throughout France. Opinion abroad was incredulous. How could France, the most civilised country in Europe, experience this eruption of medieval barbarism? Why had the case of one Jewish officer led to this rage against all Jews?

(From: France is still fractured by the Dreyfus Affair, By Piers Paul Read. Daily Telegraph, 28 Jan 2012)

Giz · 31st January 2014, 08:42 AM

Wow. How quickly the discussion of modern anti-semites in france can get turned into an inquisition on a poster's sig line. Remarkable.

blutoski · 31st January 2014, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.

French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe.

1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration.

ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair.

Craig B · 31st January 2014, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by blutoski

French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe.

1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration.

ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair.

But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.

blutoski · 31st January 2014, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.

Yep. My feeling is that it's not so much increasing in popularity as perhaps increasing in boldness. The same perennial slice of national rejects, just now they're more likely to feel safe goosestepping through the streets.

Three generations removed from Nazi occupation, the association with that evil is weaker.
They can portray themselves as French nationalists without the taint of a German fifth column.

Ryokan · 31st January 2014, 02:32 PM

Maybe they're just Judaism critics?

Olowkow · 31st January 2014, 02:43 PM

Quote:

They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"

Subtle nitpick, but "La France n'est pas à toi" is more like "France does not belong to you" or "...is not yours."

Darth Rotor · 1st February 2014, 02:49 PM

Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question:

is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?"

Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France.

(And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards?

I ask this as ~~a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it~~ a person concerned about world heritage and culture. )

Craig B · 1st February 2014, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Maybe they're just Judaism critics?

Yes, just as the English Defence League are Islam critics.

Doctor Evil · 1st February 2014, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question:

is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?"

Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France.

(And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards?

I ask this as ~~a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it~~ a person concerned about world heritage and culture. )

My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French.

Craig B · 2nd February 2014, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French.

From the Washington Post, Jan 24

Quote:

Immigration to Israel ... is slowing, despite intensive, expensive outreach — and outright wooing — by the government and private organizations. About 19,200 Jews immigrated to Israel last year, down a bit from the 22,139 who came a decade ago.

Against that backdrop, France is the exception. There were 3,270 French arrivals last year, an increase of 63 percent from 2012, according to Israel’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption. Percentage-wise, that is a far greater number than the 3,070 Jews who emigrated from the United States, which has many more Jews than France.

Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that.

Darth Rotor · 2nd February 2014, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

From the Washington Post, Jan 24 Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that.

Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ...

"Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum.

It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French."

I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place.

Craig B · 2nd February 2014, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ...

"Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum.

It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French."

I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place.

After a short look: Commentators in the francophone blogosphere appear to be confirming that many more Jews are leaving France than the few thousand ending up in Israel. London and New York are cited as favoured destinations. Zionist writers are indignant about this. I haven't looked at any antisemitic sites yet - a dismal task that would be.

dudalb · 3rd February 2014, 12:17 PM

So there is still something Vichy about the French.......

WildCat · 3rd February 2014, 06:34 PM

They're just anti-Zionists.

NWO Sentryman · 3rd February 2014, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

They're just anti-Zionists.

Yeah, and Anti-Zionism doesn't have a snazzy theme tune.

Now, the Serbs on the other hand...

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I AGREE

Word on the vine is that Tupac is going to make an album involving this sample.

Cleon · 3rd February 2014, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

They're just anti-Zionists.

No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all.

From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists.

Craig B · 4th February 2014, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all.

From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists.

Pretty normal. Which makes the expression cited above, from the Liberty Law Forum that

Quote:

socialism is the antisemitism of intellectuals

look even more odd.

Mycroft · 4th February 2014, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.

Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany.

That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road.

Craig B · 4th February 2014, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany.

That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road.

So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?

dudalb · 4th February 2014, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.

I was always afraid that as the generation who actually lived through World War 2 and the Nazi domination of Europe died off,and the living memory declined, that it would give Right Wing extremists a chance.

Mycroft · 4th February 2014, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?

India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement.

Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.

blutoski · 4th February 2014, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement.

Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.

I think that there's a huge difference between repatriating a diaspora versus recognizing a new state with its population in situ already, though.

"Moving buncha people" seems to be the harbinger of grief.

Cleon · 4th February 2014, 01:39 PM

I know the temptation is overwhelming, but please keep in mind the subject of this thread has nothing to do with Israel, Palestine, or Zionism.

If you'd like to discuss those subjects, we have a lovely thread for you right over here.

Posted By:Cleon

WildCat · 4th February 2014, 04:06 PM

nvm

NWO Sentryman · 5th February 2014, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?

REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES!

Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well.

Craig B · 5th February 2014, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES!

Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well.

Roma curry?

31st January 2014, 12:54 AM	#2
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,030	That's shocking stuff. I see they were also chanting about Faurison and saying that the gas chambers never happened. What a bunch of merdeheads.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

31st January 2014, 01:23 AM	#3
Virus Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,875	I see they don't even bother to disguise the Nazi salute anymore.
Virus Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,875	__________________ "They say the right things. They ‘speak truth to power’, ‘transgress boundaries’, and all the rest of it. But you will have noticed that they are careful only to challenge religions that won’t hurt them (Christianity) and governments that won’t arrest them (democracies)." - Nick Cohen.

31st January 2014, 01:41 AM	#4
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064	aah look at our cultural superiority right there.....
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064

31st January 2014, 03:03 AM	#5
L.Y.S. Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,467	Originally Posted by DC aah look at our cultural superiority right there..... I was saying the same thing.
L.Y.S. Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,467	__________________ "Tragedy seems to turn some people into morons." - Babbylonian

31st January 2014, 03:59 AM	#8
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,030	Originally Posted by Craig B I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791. Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

31st January 2014, 04:02 AM	#9
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by angrysoba Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever. The ideological background is interesting. According to http://www.libertylawsite.org/about/ Liberty Law Forum is provided by Liberty Fund inc, described here. Quote: In his book The Assault on Reason, Al Gore says that between 2002 and 2004 97% of the attendees at Liberty Fund training seminars for judges were Republican administration appointees. Gore suggests that such conferences and seminars are one of the reasons that judges who regularly attend such conferences "are generally responsible for writing the most radical pro-corporate, antienvironmental, and activist decisions." Referring to what he calls the "Big Three," the Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment, George Mason University's Law & Economics Center (LEC), and the Liberty Fund he adds, "These groups are not providing unbiased judicial education. They are giving multithousand-dollar vacations to federal judges to promote their radical right-wing agenda at the expense of the public interest." Liberty Fund has been cited as one of the endowed conservative foundations which laid the way for the election of U.S. president Ronald Reagan in 1980. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Fund

31st January 2014, 04:10 AM	#10
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by angrysoba Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever. It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals". Quote: ... a group of left-wing politicians, led by Blum, Edouard Daladier, Maurice Thorez, Edouard Herriot, Daniel Mayer formed the Popular Front in November 1935. Parties involved in the agreement included the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Radical Party. The parties involved in the Popular Front did well in the May 1936 parliamentary elections and won a total of 376 seats. Blum, leader of the Socialist Party, now become prime minister of France. Blum therefore became the first Jew in France history to hold this post. Once in power the Popular Front government introduced the 40 hour week and other social reforms. It also nationalized the Bank of France and the armaments industry. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm
	Last edited by Craig B; 31st January 2014 at 04:11 AM.

31st January 2014, 04:36 AM	#11
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,030	Originally Posted by Craig B It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals".http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm No, but it appears to be his own elaboration on an older formulation, which is currently doing the rounds: Quote: In the late 19th century, the German Marxist August Bebel observed that anti-Jewish prejudice was “the socialism of fools”. From Marx’s plea for the withering away of Jewishness to the popular euphemistic references to “rootless cosmopolitans” in the Stalin era, the left has had, to put it mildly, a problematic relationship with the world’s oldest monotheistic religion. The French left’s relationship has been more difficult than most. During the revolution of 1789, Jews were attacked for clinging selfishly to their religious identity. Even an ardent Dreyfusard such as the socialist leader Jean Jaurès could still insist that “the Jewish race was consumed by a sort of fever for profit”. What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse to a fashionable, anti-globalisation, up-yours, them-and-us (“them” frequently being Jewish financiers and Holocaust memorialisers) coalition of radical Islamists, hip middle-class white Parisians, alienated black youth and Jewish-world-domination conspiracy theorists. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-anti-semitism
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

31st January 2014, 05:02 AM	#12
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	@ angrysoba Quote: What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse Interesting, but Léon Blum probably didn't see things that way last century, that socialism was "race-hate discourse" Quote: Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews. Campaigning as a Dreyfusard brought him into contact with the socialist leader Jean Jaurès, whom he greatly admired. He began contributing to the socialist daily, L'Humanité, and joined the Socialist Party, then called the SFIO. Soon he was the party's main theoretician. Did he expound anti-semitism or race hate discourse as part of his theoretical contributions? ETA Quote: Blum, however, was attacked by segments of the French far-right, for his Jewishness, while the Action française, far-right leagues and the Cagoule terrorist group engaged in antisemitic propaganda. End ETA By the way, I accept that Karl Marx was anti-Jewish on a personal level, as well as in at least one of his published writings (his own Jewish origin notwithstanding), but his disciples didn't follow him in this. See F Kaplan http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marx-antisem.../dp/2902702647 .
	Last edited by Craig B; 31st January 2014 at 05:10 AM. Reason: ETA

31st January 2014, 06:11 AM	#13
Polaris Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 11,396	Originally Posted by Craig B I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791. Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair?
	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk.

31st January 2014, 06:30 AM	#14
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Polaris Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair? Don't be silly. I have just quoted a source containing these words: Quote: Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews. This "traumatic effect" was occasioned by the very fact to which I have alluded: that given the historical background, this Affair was particularly outrageous, as are more modern manifestations of antisemitism in France. Dreyfus was an army officer, one of many Jewish officers. How could this happen in France? Russia, or Germany ... How many Jewish officers in their armies? Anti semitism there was less surprising; in France it was very shocking. Quote: On January 13, 1898, France’s leading novelist, Émile Zola, entered the fray with a polemic, J’Accuse, naming the officers responsible for the conspiracy against Dreyfus. It was hailed as heroic by the Left, outrageous by the Right, and provoked anti-Semitic riots throughout France. Opinion abroad was incredulous. How could France, the most civilised country in Europe, experience this eruption of medieval barbarism? Why had the case of one Jewish officer led to this rage against all Jews? (From: France is still fractured by the Dreyfus Affair, By Piers Paul Read. Daily Telegraph, 28 Jan 2012)

31st January 2014, 08:42 AM	#15
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709	Wow. How quickly the discussion of modern anti-semites in france can get turned into an inquisition on a poster's sig line. Remarkable.
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709

31st January 2014, 12:54 PM	#16
blutoski Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,369	Originally Posted by Craig B I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791. French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe. 1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration. ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett Last edited by blutoski; 31st January 2014 at 12:56 PM. Reason: ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other

31st January 2014, 01:18 PM	#17
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by blutoski French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe. 1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration. ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair. But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.

31st January 2014, 01:27 PM	#18
blutoski Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,369	Originally Posted by Craig B But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening. Yep. My feeling is that it's not so much increasing in popularity as perhaps increasing in boldness. The same perennial slice of national rejects, just now they're more likely to feel safe goosestepping through the streets. Three generations removed from Nazi occupation, the association with that evil is weaker. They can portray themselves as French nationalists without the taint of a German fifth column.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

31st January 2014, 02:32 PM	#19
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 10,416	Maybe they're just Judaism critics?

31st January 2014, 02:43 PM	#20
Olowkow Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,230	Quote: They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you" Subtle nitpick, but "La France n'est pas à toi" is more like "France does not belong to you" or "...is not yours."
Olowkow Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,230

1st February 2014, 02:49 PM	#21
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question: is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?" Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France. (And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards? I ask this as ~~a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it~~ a person concerned about world heritage and culture. )
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 1st February 2014 at 02:51 PM.

1st February 2014, 10:41 PM	#22
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Ryokan Maybe they're just Judaism critics? Yes, just as the English Defence League are Islam critics.

1st February 2014, 11:45 PM	#23
Doctor Evil Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,014	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question: is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?" Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France. (And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards? I ask this as ~~a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it~~ a person concerned about world heritage and culture. ) My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

2nd February 2014, 02:54 AM	#24
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Doctor Evil My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French. From the Washington Post, Jan 24 Quote: Immigration to Israel ... is slowing, despite intensive, expensive outreach — and outright wooing — by the government and private organizations. About 19,200 Jews immigrated to Israel last year, down a bit from the 22,139 who came a decade ago. Against that backdrop, France is the exception. There were 3,270 French arrivals last year, an increase of 63 percent from 2012, according to Israel’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption. Percentage-wise, that is a far greater number than the 3,070 Jews who emigrated from the United States, which has many more Jews than France. Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that.

2nd February 2014, 09:03 AM	#25
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by Craig B From the Washington Post, Jan 24 Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that. Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ... "Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum. It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French." I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

2nd February 2014, 10:26 AM	#26
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ... "Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum. It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French." I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place. After a short look: Commentators in the francophone blogosphere appear to be confirming that many more Jews are leaving France than the few thousand ending up in Israel. London and New York are cited as favoured destinations. Zionist writers are indignant about this. I haven't looked at any antisemitic sites yet - a dismal task that would be.

3rd February 2014, 12:17 PM	#27
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,005	So there is still something Vichy about the French.......

3rd February 2014, 06:34 PM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	They're just anti-Zionists.

3rd February 2014, 07:25 PM	#30
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 25,682	Originally Posted by WildCat They're just anti-Zionists. No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all. From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

4th February 2014, 04:34 AM	#31
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Cleon No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all. From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists. Pretty normal. Which makes the expression cited above, from the Liberty Law Forum that Quote: socialism is the antisemitism of intellectuals look even more odd.

4th February 2014, 11:19 AM	#32
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,814	Originally Posted by Craig B That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791. Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany. That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

4th February 2014, 11:39 AM	#33
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Mycroft Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany. That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road. So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?

4th February 2014, 11:59 AM	#34
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,005	Originally Posted by Craig B But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening. I was always afraid that as the generation who actually lived through World War 2 and the Nazi domination of Europe died off,and the living memory declined, that it would give Right Wing extremists a chance.

4th February 2014, 01:10 PM	#35
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,814	Originally Posted by Craig B So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there? India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement. Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

4th February 2014, 01:31 PM	#36
blutoski Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,369	Originally Posted by Mycroft India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement. Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq. I think that there's a huge difference between repatriating a diaspora versus recognizing a new state with its population in situ already, though. "Moving buncha people" seems to be the harbinger of grief.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

4th February 2014, 04:06 PM	#38
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	nvm
	Last edited by WildCat; 4th February 2014 at 04:08 PM.

5th February 2014, 01:53 PM	#39
NWO Sentryman Proud NWO Gatekeeper Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6,994	Originally Posted by Craig B So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there? REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES! Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well.
	__________________ If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East

5th February 2014, 02:34 PM	#40
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES! Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well. Roma curry?