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Tags anti-semitism , anti-semitism incidents , France incidents , neo-Nazi incidents

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Old 31st January 2014, 12:47 AM   #1
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Protest in France: "Jews get out".

They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of that twit who does anti-Semitic performance art and invented a hidden Nazi salute.

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They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"
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Last edited by Virus; 31st January 2014 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 31st January 2014, 12:54 AM   #2
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That's shocking stuff. I see they were also chanting about Faurison and saying that the gas chambers never happened.

What a bunch of merdeheads.
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:23 AM   #3
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I see they don't even bother to disguise the Nazi salute anymore.
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:41 AM   #4
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aah look at our cultural superiority right there.....
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Old 31st January 2014, 03:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
aah look at our cultural superiority right there.....
I was saying the same thing.
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Old 31st January 2014, 03:08 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of

They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"
What is your position on this subject? Anti-semitism is alive and well all over the world. I'm sure you've heard of Brendan O'Connell and the Australian League of RightsWP?

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Old 31st January 2014, 03:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
They came out for a "Day of Rage" protest on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day in support of that twit who does anti-Semitic performance art and invented a hidden Nazi salute.

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They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"
I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum"
Quote:
Here I must add that the structure of socialist economic thought is exactly the same as the structure of ant-Semitic economic thought: if anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools, socialism is the anti-Semitism of intellectuals.
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.
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Old 31st January 2014, 03:59 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.
Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st January 2014, 04:02 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.
The ideological background is interesting. According to http://www.libertylawsite.org/about/ Liberty Law Forum is provided by Liberty Fund inc, described here.
Quote:
In his book The Assault on Reason, Al Gore says that between 2002 and 2004 97% of the attendees at Liberty Fund training seminars for judges were Republican administration appointees. Gore suggests that such conferences and seminars are one of the reasons that judges who regularly attend such conferences "are generally responsible for writing the most radical pro-corporate, antienvironmental, and activist decisions." Referring to what he calls the "Big Three," the Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment, George Mason University's Law & Economics Center (LEC), and the Liberty Fund he adds, "These groups are not providing unbiased judicial education. They are giving multithousand-dollar vacations to federal judges to promote their radical right-wing agenda at the expense of the public interest."
Liberty Fund has been cited as one of the endowed conservative foundations which laid the way for the election of U.S. president Ronald Reagan in 1980.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Fund
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Old 31st January 2014, 04:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, I thought that bit by Dalrymple made no sense whatsoever.
It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals".
Quote:
... a group of left-wing politicians, led by Blum, Edouard Daladier, Maurice Thorez, Edouard Herriot, Daniel Mayer formed the Popular Front in November 1935. Parties involved in the agreement included the Communist Party, the Socialist Party and the Radical Party.

The parties involved in the Popular Front did well in the May 1936 parliamentary elections and won a total of 376 seats. Blum, leader of the Socialist Party, now become prime minister of France. Blum therefore became the first Jew in France history to hold this post.

Once in power the Popular Front government introduced the 40 hour week and other social reforms. It also nationalized the Bank of France and the armaments industry.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm

Last edited by Craig B; 31st January 2014 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 31st January 2014, 04:36 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's not very clear from French history that "Socialism is the anti-semitism of intellectuals".http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWblum.htm
No, but it appears to be his own elaboration on an older formulation, which is currently doing the rounds:

Quote:
In the late 19th century, the German Marxist August Bebel observed that anti-Jewish prejudice was “the socialism of fools”. From Marx’s plea for the withering away of Jewishness to the popular euphemistic references to “rootless cosmopolitans” in the Stalin era, the left has had, to put it mildly, a problematic relationship with the world’s oldest monotheistic religion. The French left’s relationship has been more difficult than most. During the revolution of 1789, Jews were attacked for clinging selfishly to their religious identity. Even an ardent Dreyfusard such as the socialist leader Jean Jaurès could still insist that “the Jewish race was consumed by a sort of fever for profit”. What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse to a fashionable, anti-globalisation, up-yours, them-and-us (“them” frequently being Jewish financiers and Holocaust memorialisers) coalition of radical Islamists, hip middle-class white Parisians, alienated black youth and Jewish-world-domination conspiracy theorists.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-anti-semitism
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st January 2014, 05:02 AM   #12
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@ angrysoba

Quote:
What is new today is the appeal of this race-hate discourse
Interesting, but Léon Blum probably didn't see things that way last century, that socialism was "race-hate discourse"
Quote:
Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews. Campaigning as a Dreyfusard brought him into contact with the socialist leader Jean Jaurès, whom he greatly admired. He began contributing to the socialist daily, L'Humanité, and joined the Socialist Party, then called the SFIO. Soon he was the party's main theoretician.
Did he expound anti-semitism or race hate discourse as part of his theoretical contributions?

ETA
Quote:
Blum, however, was attacked by segments of the French far-right, for his Jewishness, while the Action française, far-right leagues and the Cagoule terrorist group engaged in antisemitic propaganda.
End ETA

By the way, I accept that Karl Marx was anti-Jewish on a personal level, as well as in at least one of his published writings (his own Jewish origin notwithstanding), but his disciples didn't follow him in this. See F Kaplan http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marx-antisem.../dp/2902702647 .

Last edited by Craig B; 31st January 2014 at 05:10 AM. Reason: ETA
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Old 31st January 2014, 06:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.
Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair?
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Old 31st January 2014, 06:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Not familiar with the Dreyfus Affair?
Don't be silly. I have just quoted a source containing these words:
Quote:
Blum had little interest in politics until the Dreyfus Affair of 1894, which had a traumatic effect on him as it did on many French Jews.
This "traumatic effect" was occasioned by the very fact to which I have alluded: that given the historical background, this Affair was particularly outrageous, as are more modern manifestations of antisemitism in France.

Dreyfus was an army officer, one of many Jewish officers. How could this happen in France? Russia, or Germany ... How many Jewish officers in their armies? Anti semitism there was less surprising; in France it was very shocking.
Quote:
On January 13, 1898, France’s leading novelist, Émile Zola, entered the fray with a polemic, J’Accuse, naming the officers responsible for the conspiracy against Dreyfus. It was hailed as heroic by the Left, outrageous by the Right, and provoked anti-Semitic riots throughout France. Opinion abroad was incredulous. How could France, the most civilised country in Europe, experience this eruption of medieval barbarism? Why had the case of one Jewish officer led to this rage against all Jews?
(From: France is still fractured by the Dreyfus Affair, By Piers Paul Read. Daily Telegraph, 28 Jan 2012)
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:42 AM   #15
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Wow. How quickly the discussion of modern anti-semites in france can get turned into an inquisition on a poster's sig line. Remarkable.
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Old 31st January 2014, 12:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think maybe this is what Virus is getting at, from his linked article at "Liberty Law Forum" That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.
French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe.

1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration.


ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair.
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Last edited by blutoski; 31st January 2014 at 12:56 PM. Reason: ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
French attitude toward Jews eroded at the end of the 19th century, in concert with the rest of Europe.

1894's [L'Affaire Dreyfus] precipitated familiar prewar European antisemitism that was arguably only reversed by the aftermath of WWII - the association of domestic antisemitism with foreign (ie: Nazi) collaboration.


ETA: sorry for repeating information already discussed on the thread - I replied before continuing and hadn't read the other posts on Dreyfus Affair.
But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.
Yep. My feeling is that it's not so much increasing in popularity as perhaps increasing in boldness. The same perennial slice of national rejects, just now they're more likely to feel safe goosestepping through the streets.

Three generations removed from Nazi occupation, the association with that evil is weaker.
They can portray themselves as French nationalists without the taint of a German fifth column.
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Old 31st January 2014, 02:32 PM   #19
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Maybe they're just Judaism critics?
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Old 31st January 2014, 02:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
They're saying "Jews get out. France is not for you"
Subtle nitpick, but "La France n'est pas à toi" is more like "France does not belong to you" or "...is not yours."
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Old 1st February 2014, 02:49 PM   #21
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Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question:

is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?"

Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France.

(And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards? I ask this as a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it a person concerned about world heritage and culture. )
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Old 1st February 2014, 10:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Maybe they're just Judaism critics?
Yes, just as the English Defence League are Islam critics.
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Old 1st February 2014, 11:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Thanks for that point on meaning, Olowkow, but that raises the question:

is it their intention to "send those Jews back to Israel, where they came from?"

Sorta hard, given how many generations of Jews have been born and raised in France.

(And if they wanted to toss out all of those Jews in France, then who will produce that magnificent wine from the Rothschild vineyards? I ask this as a lush who loves that wine when I can afford it a person concerned about world heritage and culture. )
My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French.
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Old 2nd February 2014, 02:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
My impression is that quite a few have already left. I have no statistics but the last decade saw a huge increase in the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel. It now much easier to encounter someone whose mother language is clearly French.
From the Washington Post, Jan 24
Quote:
Immigration to Israel ... is slowing, despite intensive, expensive outreach — and outright wooing — by the government and private organizations. About 19,200 Jews immigrated to Israel last year, down a bit from the 22,139 who came a decade ago.

Against that backdrop, France is the exception. There were 3,270 French arrivals last year, an increase of 63 percent from 2012, according to Israel’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption. Percentage-wise, that is a far greater number than the 3,070 Jews who emigrated from the United States, which has many more Jews than France.
Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that.
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Old 2nd February 2014, 09:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
From the Washington Post, Jan 24 Other French Jews are moving to neighbouring European countries in increased numbers, but I don't have statistics on that.
Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ...

"Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum.

It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French."

I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place.
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Old 2nd February 2014, 10:26 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Sadly, that stat can be spun as well. Here's an example of how that can be crafted into a nasty talking point ...

"Ahah! Those cowardly Jews, deserting us as our social conflict with the evil Muslims immigrants is growing in intensity! They never loved France anyway, and aren't rally French!" Ad nauseum.

It's a lose-lose deal. "Get out, France isn't yours!" "Cowards, abandoning France, you aren't French."

I don't know enough French to do so, but I suspect a Google of various agitator web sites might uncover that kind of rhetoric already in place.
After a short look: Commentators in the francophone blogosphere appear to be confirming that many more Jews are leaving France than the few thousand ending up in Israel. London and New York are cited as favoured destinations. Zionist writers are indignant about this. I haven't looked at any antisemitic sites yet - a dismal task that would be.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 12:17 PM   #27
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So there is still something Vichy about the French.......
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Old 3rd February 2014, 06:34 PM   #28
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They're just anti-Zionists.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 06:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They're just anti-Zionists.
Yeah, and Anti-Zionism doesn't have a snazzy theme tune.

Now, the Serbs on the other hand...

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Old 3rd February 2014, 07:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They're just anti-Zionists.
No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all.

From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists.
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Old 4th February 2014, 04:34 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
No, they're Anti-Semites. They're shouting "Juif! Juif!" Israel doesn't seem to be involved at all.

From the video, looks like skinheads and other far-rightists.
Pretty normal. Which makes the expression cited above, from the Liberty Law Forum that
Quote:
socialism is the antisemitism of intellectuals
look even more odd.
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Old 4th February 2014, 11:19 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But antisemitism in France is particularly shocking, as that was the first country to admit Jews to equal citizenship with other parts of the population, by decree of the National Assembly, 27 September 1791.
Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany.

That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road.
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Old 4th February 2014, 11:39 AM   #33
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Well, Germany was a pretty good home for Jews before it became Nazi Germany.

That was the point of Zionism; the realization that this particular bigotry is always present in European societies, and no matter how open and progressive it seems at the moment, you just don't know what will happen a few decades down the road.
So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?
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Old 4th February 2014, 11:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But still valuable. The reappearance of antisemitism in post WWII times is very disheartening.
I was always afraid that as the generation who actually lived through World War 2 and the Nazi domination of Europe died off,and the living memory declined, that it would give Right Wing extremists a chance.
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Old 4th February 2014, 01:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?
India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement.

Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
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Old 4th February 2014, 01:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
India is a pretty big place. If there were a Roma movement to start buying up land in a tiny corner there with the intent of eventually creating a place where Roma people could determine their own destiny...yeah, I'd have a lot of sympathy for that movement.

Same way I'd have sympathy if Kurdish people wanted to carve out a state from parts of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
I think that there's a huge difference between repatriating a diaspora versus recognizing a new state with its population in situ already, though.

"Moving buncha people" seems to be the harbinger of grief.
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Old 4th February 2014, 01:39 PM   #37
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Mod Warning
I know the temptation is overwhelming, but please keep in mind the subject of this thread has nothing to do with Israel, Palestine, or Zionism.

If you'd like to discuss those subjects, we have a lovely thread for you right over here.

Posted By:Cleon
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Old 4th February 2014, 04:06 PM   #38
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nvm

Last edited by WildCat; 4th February 2014 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 5th February 2014, 01:53 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So go and take land from non-Europeans? The Roma should go "back" to India and carve out a state there?
REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES!

Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well.
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Old 5th February 2014, 02:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
REMOVE CURRY FROM PREMISES!

Though when Serbia tried to do that with Kebab, Cheeseburger didn't take to that too well.
Roma curry?
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