Merged: Money/inequalities - Part 3 / Poll - willing to work for free?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You should pay the maximum price, everything you can give, but you don't want to do that. You have to take a human as it is.

Nope, one negotiates a fair price for whatever job. I do it all the time. As a matter of course. That's how it works.

Maybe it doesn't work that way in your current employ. Fine. Nothing stops you from seeking a different job if you are unsatisfied with your current employ. You will not accept that because you think there should be no employ at all. You think that merit has no value whatsoever.

Nowm, I have not had to rely on handouts throughout this pandemic. Why? Because what I do has value to people. Were they not paying me, I would have no reason to do it. Under your model, there would be no internet for you to spout your absurdities upon.

What you are really advocating for is a return to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, where women die in childbirth for lack of medical facilities, disabled children are left to die, injured or sick people are left to fend for themselves, and so on.

What you are doing is preaching hate for life. Because you are in a rush to get to your imaginary second imaginary life in your imaginary heaven. That you imagine.

In all of this, the one thing you fail to do is present any evidence for this phantasm that you seem to believe in. It clearly is not the christian god of tradition, because you present no evidence that it is even real. None. You make stuff up, lie about the bibble, invent extra biblical nonsense out of whole cloth, the list goes on.

You even promote non-christian concepts.

On top of that, you seem to have no idea what your magic book says, since it appears that you have never read it.

Now, I cannot read your mind, nor anyone elses, but this does not seem to me to be a convincing argument for anything' "Because I say so" is not convincing at any level.

[bruto]

How we imagine our ambitions.....

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Nope, one negotiates a fair price for whatever job. I do it all the time. As a matter of course. That's how it works.

The fair price is zero dollar because that's the price you want to pay for your neighbour labor.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The fair price is zero dollar because that's the price you want to pay for your neighbour labor.

The fact that you want something makes it neither right nor practicable.

What you want is only half the transaction.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I know that i don't serve God or humanity by using the system of money, that's why i want to abolish money. Off course a rich can't enter haven but it is not only that money can makes you rich, it is the use of money itself, you can't charge for the work done for your labor because you don't want to pay for the work of others, it is simply a matter of justice, the rule you apply to others applies to you, it is only justice, no justice, no haven. The justice is to treat your neighbour as you want to be treated not as he treats you. Money is the tool to treat your neighbour as he treats you. When people go shopping they want to pay the minimum price, zero dollar then the price you are allowed to charge for your work is zero dollar, it is only a matter of justice, the rule you apply to your neighbour applies to you, there can't be two different rule, one good for you, the minimum price and the maximum price paid for your work because it is not justice.

So you are currently not serving God. So from whom is this idea really coming from if you aren't serving God?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by bruto

The fact that you want something makes it neither right nor practicable.

What you want is only half the transaction.

There can't be different rules for fixing price, to be paid the highest price for your work and pay the lowest price for the work of your neighbour is not just. He wanted to be treated a different rule than he treats his neighbour

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[i] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The fair price is zero dollar because that's the price you want to pay for your neighbour labor.

No. That's complete crap. In both human psychology and basic economics there are two curves. The Demand Curve and the Supply Curve.

An exchange only takes place where both curves intersect at price (money)

So far all you have posted is religious fantasy about heaven where your God supplies everything for free.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The fair price is zero dollar because that's the price you want to pay for your neighbour labor.

Utterly wrong. I have no problem paying my neighbour a fair price for any labour. That is YOUR problem. You want everything for free for yourself because you are that selfish.

Meanwhile, why do you continue to serve satan?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Utterly wrong. I have no problem paying my neighbour a fair price for any labour.

This is not the truth. When people go shopping and see a product 2$ and the same product beside it at 0$, 99% take the product at 0$ the rest is creasy.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not the truth. When people go shopping and see a product 2$ and the same product beside it at 0$, 99% take the product at 0$ the rest is creasy.

Of course. Taking an offer is not the same as believing everything should always be free. I like gifts, and receive them with pleasure. I also sometimes give gifts, and also do that with pleasure. I'd be a raging idiot if I thought this was the model for all transactions. As the Bible says more than once, the laborer is worthy of his hire.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by bruto

Of course. Taking an offer is not the same as believing everything should always be free. I like gifts, and receive them with pleasure. I also sometimes give gifts, and also do that with pleasure. I'd be a raging idiot if I thought this was the model for all transactions. As the Bible says more than once, the laborer is worthy of his hire.

This is not idiot this is justice, you can't charge for your labor because you don't want to pay for the work of your neighbour.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The difference between God and the devil:

God forgives; the devil never forgives.
God shares with others; the devil doesn't share anything, it's every man for himself.
God gives freely; when the devil gives, he always asks for something in return.
God loves, the devil loves no one.
God is devoted to others, the devil thinks only of himself.
God makes free; with the devil you're not free, you're stuffed with taxes, you can't eat or drink what you want, you can't dress how you want, you can't work when you want

You can replace the devil by money it is exactly the samething

Similarities between god and the devil:

They both kill people for fun.
They enjoy gambling.
They don't exist.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not idiot this is justice, you can't charge for your labor because you don't want to pay for the work of your neighbour.

But unless you're your neighbor's slave, you can refuse to do what he asks. You can choose what you do, and for whom, and so can your neighbor. Unless both make that choice with some regard for what they need in return, they're idiots (or slaves).

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by bruto

But unless you're your neighbor's slave, you can refuse to do what he asks. You can choose what you do, and for whom, and so can your neighbor. Unless both make that choice with some regard for what they need in return, they're idiots (or slaves).

In return for your work at no charge you take pruducts done for no charge

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In return for your work at no charge you take pruducts done for no charge

Here is the fundamental problem, you can't both do something for no charge and also "in return, take" as they are exactly the opposite. If you do something for no charge, there is no charge. You can't honestly then say that it entitles you to take everything that everyone else produces.

Also, you still haven't told us who you are serving, because it can't be god. Since you currently serve money, right? Why are you serving the devil? Why should any of us follow you and your self described satanic ways?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You can say you want to pay for the work of your neighbour but the truth is that you don't want to pay as every human being then you can't charge for your work.

I can say it and I do it, which means I can charge for my work because I do pay for the work of others. Even work I could easily do myself.

Do you pay for the work of others.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not the truth. When people go shopping and see a product 2$ and the same product beside it at 0$, 99% take the product at 0$ the rest is creasy.

Ah, so people are just "creasy" if they don't want to rip off their neighbors like you and actually want to apply what you have called "justice".

Why do you want to steal from your neighbor? Don't you get paid for your work? So by your stated "justice" you should ensure your neighbor also gets paid for their work by taking only the 2$ product.

Why are you so confused? You call it "justice", to ensure your neighbor gets paid as you do, in one post and then "creasy" in another?

Remember no one can agree with you until you can at least agree with just yourself.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not idiot this is justice, you can't charge for your labor because you don't want to pay for the work of your neighbour.

Do you get paid for your work?

Do you pay for the work of others?

While you might "want" something else, this is what you do and it conforms to your given 'do unto others' and 'love thy neighbor' requirements of "justice".

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not the truth. When people go shopping and see a product 2$ and the same product beside it at 0$, 99% take the product at 0$ the rest is creasy.

No. Again, that is complete crap. No one is going to supply a substitute product for no revenue. That's why you have to have both Demand and Supply curves simultaneously reaching an intersection point, for a transaction to take place.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In return for your work at no charge you take pruducts done for no charge

If it is not barter, what happens if the person refuses to give it? What if someone else came around and took it all? And what if nobody around has what I need?

The Gaetan system makes no provision for a person needing something that is not within easy reach. Sure, I could do free work for whoever happens by. But if what I need right now is brake rotors for my Hyundai, and all my neighbor has is maple syrup, at some point I'm going to have too much maple syrup and my car on blocks. Obviously (or obviously to anyone but a fool) the solution to this is to engage in trade. And the easiest, least cumbersome and most economically efficient form of trade is to work for money and then spend the money to buy what I need.

One of the fundamental logical flaws in the no-money argument is the circular contention that money was invented by greedy tyrants and that the way to get rid of greedy tyrants is to eliminate money. But clearly, the inventor comes before the invention.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by bruto

If it is not barter, what happens if the person refuses to give it? What if someone else came around and took it all? And what if nobody around has what I need?

The Gaetan system makes no provision for a person needing something that is not within easy reach. Sure, I could do free work for whoever happens by. But if what I need right now is brake rotors for my Hyundai, and all my neighbor has is maple syrup, at some point I'm going to have too much maple syrup and my car on blocks. Obviously (or obviously to anyone but a fool) the solution to this is to engage in trade. And the easiest, least cumbersome and most economically efficient form of trade is to work for money and then spend the money to buy what I need.

One of the fundamental logical flaws in the no-money argument is the circular contention that money was invented by greedy tyrants and that the way to get rid of greedy tyrants is to eliminate money. But clearly, the inventor comes before the invention.

In a system of money products come by work and investment of money, in a system of no money products come by work then can't you see that if you eliminate investment as not require you'll have more products for the need of people, we can keep the system of money just for internationnal trade untill contries abolish money.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not the truth. When people go shopping and see a product 2$ and the same product beside it at 0$, 99% take the product at 0$ the rest is creasy.

Can you provide an example where this actually happens in the real world? Where the same product is exactly the same product and one costs money and the other is free?

Usually, in the cheaper, or free, product there is something wrong with it. It's defective, used, or somehow seen as less as a pristine product.

If you had the choice between a brand new Tesla, and used one, with faded paint, been in a few accidents and doesn't drive straight, with balding tires, and a battery pack that is going to need to be replaced in a year, which are you taking "for free"?

Are they the same product?

[bruto]

Once again, I think Gaetan is not looking beyond the tribal economy of slaughtering meat and the like. If he can find one example, anywhere in the world, anywhere in history, in which a manufacturing enterprise came into being without investment, now is the time to produce it.

The prospect of owning a free Tesla depends on the existence of Teslas, and the factory to build them. All that has happened in the money economy. Of course it's easy now to turn revolutionary and say "get rid of money" now after all the benefits of the money economy exist.

I'm reminded a bit of an internet thing I saw long ago, not sure if it still exists, in which a person decided to test the theory that one can make anything, by designing a toaster completely out of non-manufactured materials.

Ah, Here it is!

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Leftus

Usually, in the cheaper, or free, product there is something wrong with it.

It's simpler than that. The demand curve changes when a substitution is offered. As you already know, this is backed by hard empirical evidence.

The cheaper substitution product causes the original consumer product to increase in value as the supply cost increases. Thus Gataen's Tesla increases in price.

"Substitutes are goods where you can consume one in place of the other. The prices of complementary or substitute goods also shift the demand curve. When the price of a good that complements a good decreases, then the quantity demanded of one increases and the demand for the other increases."
https://inflateyourmind.com/macroeco...20vice%20versa.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In a system of money products come by work and investment of money, in a system of no money products come by work then can't you see that if you eliminate investment as not require you'll have more products for the need of people, we can keep the system of money just for internationnal trade untill contries abolish money.

We done this, you continue to deliberately confuse money with investment. Getting rid of money doesn't get rid of investment. The exact amount of required investment remains in , time, labor, energy, land, environmental intact..ect..ect. Getting rid of money just makes those required investments harder to compare across various options, schedules and stratagem.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

[color="Navy"]It's simpler than that. The demand curve changes when a substitution is offered. As you already know, this is backed by hard empirical evidence.

My point was a bit more basic than that, in that there is never two identical products being offered at radically different prices. And that is what I was hoping he would provide an example of (knowing he wouldn't address the issue head on).

Also, I wanted to point out that he would not accept the inferior product, and only take the best to which he is probably not normally entitled.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Leftus

My point was a bit more basic than that, in that there is never two identical products being offered at radically different prices. And that is what I was hoping he would provide an example of (knowing he wouldn't address the issue head on).

Also, I wanted to point out that he would not accept the inferior product, and only take the best to which he is probably not normally entitled.

I said the same product

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I said the same product

You did which was hilarious.

Why would anyone supply a product for free, when their competitors are selling a product with a net profit margin.....and driving around in Teslas?

Do you deny Supply curves in economics, are hard tested empirical evidence?

[bruto]

I'm curious, what our theorist expects he himself would contribute in this society. It is asserted that he does not have the wherewithal to buy a Tesla, which puts his skills in question. And yet in this give-and-take utopia such things are still made. That's a lot of man-hours of manufacture, shipping, and engineering, in an economy that is, according to him, entirely egalitarian. The idea depends on the idea that work is not compulsory and not assigned a value - work must be done with no expectation of reward. But the society, to exist without massive hardship and starvation, requires that everyone participate with the maximum of both effort and faith. If people are going to get Teslas, they'll have to do a Tesla's worth of work, even if they pretend there's no connection. Otherwise shortages of everything will occur, from Teslas to toilet paper.

So Gaetan, what worthy work of social significance are you planning to do?

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by bruto

I'm curious, what our theorist expects he himself would contribute in this society.

Gaetan? This is a very good question. What are you going to give us for free?

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I said the same product

And I said provide a real world example where the same product is being offered to the same population at radically different prices.

But you did not, because you can not, and you know it. This is just another fantasy you've created and falls apart when reality is injected.

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In a system of money products come by work and investment of money, in a system of no money products come by work then can't you see that if you eliminate investment as not require you'll have more products for the need of people, we can keep the system of money just for internationnal trade untill contries abolish money.

In a money system, we have cars, planes and modern conveniences. Yes there might be sone wealth inequality but a few examples of a no money society, there is a lot of manual labor, shorter lifespans and little to no modern conveniences.

Also, there are no Teslas in a no money society.

You are free to join a no money society while I choose modern society with money.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Joecool

In a money system, we have cars, planes and modern conveniences. Yes there might be sone wealth inequality but a few examples of a no money society, there is a lot of manual labor, shorter lifespans and little to no modern conveniences.

Also, there are no Teslas in a no money society.

You are free to join a no money society while I choose modern society with money.

A few fellows seemed to be obsessed by Tesla, i heard there is problem with those cars porbably due to profit consideration.

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

A few fellows seemed to be obsessed by Tesla, i heard there is problem with those cars porbably due to profit consideration.

You have not answered a simple question.

What product or service are you offering us for free?

If you cannot answer this it means you do not believe your own claims.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

A few fellows seemed to be obsessed by Tesla, i heard there is problem with those cars porbably due to profit consideration.

You know how much they cost, any "problems" you've "heard" about aren't because Tesla can't raise the price to solve those "problems." They are a luxury good, and as such can absorb such a price fluctuation.

We are "obsessed" with Teslas, because that is your bone of contention with the world. There are items you can't afford, specifically a Tesla, and rather than find a way to afford one, you'd rather freeload your way to victory.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

You have not answered a simple question.

What product or service are you offering us for free?

If you cannot answer this it means you do not believe your own claims.

He hasn't answered any questions, simple or complex.

He clearly serves money, and thusly, the devil. We should dismiss his satan worshipping ass as such.

[bruto]

A little glitch in the no-money system:

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/383

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

In a system of money products come by work and investment of money, in a system of no money products come by work then can't you see that if you eliminate investment as not require you'll have more products for the need of people, we can keep the system of money just for internationnal trade untill contries abolish money.

Gaetan is wrong again. In a no money system, those societies do not produce products. They work to survive. They build shelters and hunt and gather food. They do not produce canned goods or electronic devices. The only things they produce is what they need to survive.

It is the modern society and the use of money that helped to advance society because money is a resource that can be stored for future use.

In no money societies, you can’t store your daily labor for use at another time. This is why your idea fails, Gaetan.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by bruto

A little glitch in the no-money system:

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/383

That raises a point. I have never been able to decide whether Gaetan is proposing marxist extremism, or a christian extremism or a weird mix of both, or something else.

Regardless of which ideology is being proposed, it simply does not work, of course. Currently, it looks like christian Marxism, but let us not forget that some time ago, he was proposing slavery, so my view may change depending on what he posts next.

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not idiot this is justice, you can't charge for your labor because you don't want to pay for the work of your neighbour.

This is a ridiculous assertion. If my neighbor’s expertise is chopping firewood and my job is to perform brain surgery which requires a lot more training and education, why shouldn’t I be compensated more if I had to invest more time to learn my skill?

If your world, a bum would be equal to a doctor. Your system would completely eliminate the desire to strive for more in life.

Do you know of any brain surgeons or rocket scientists in a no money society? No because they don’t exist. Instead you have farmers, hunters and gatherers.