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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:40 AM   #1041
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?
As we all know, even when problems seem set to cripple an industry, if it's possible that a future government might eventually fix those problems then there's nothing to complain about.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:46 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?

Why do you speak about that which you know nothing ?

What would the UK give up in exchange?

What other non-EU countries have negotiated something like this?

Does the EU even have a mechanism to wave the visa requirements, or would this need to be negotiated with separately with every EU country?

Edit to add another question

Why would the UK government single out musicians to negotiate preferential treatment for? Why not for an agreement that covered everyone who wants to travel or work in the EU?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:48 AM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?

Why do you speak about that which you know nothing ?
The EU already offered this government access. Government said, no, it wants sovereignty.

80-seat majority it can do what it likes.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:19 PM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?

Why do you speak about that which you know nothing ?
Would that be done by having a piano at the border to test people or are we talking about a system similar to the system where you apply for a visa for a country but instead you apply for Musician's pass where you collect all the information you would need for a visa but also evidence of the musicians ability to play along with confirmed bookings to show they have the means to survive in the country they are performing.

I suspect the latter. The brexit loons are not going to be happy for us to wave through anyone carrying a tin whistle.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:21 PM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Would that be done by having a piano at the border to test people or are we talking about a system similar to the system where you apply for a visa for a country but instead you apply for Musician's pass where you collect all the information you would need for a visa but also evidence of the musicians ability to play along with confirmed bookings to show they have the means to survive in the country they are performing.

I suspect the latter. The brexit loons are not going to be happy for us to wave through anyone carrying a tin whistle.

Of course, before Fuxit, this was all pretty much free as it came with free movement. Anything put in place now is going to cost, which is a charge to be born by the musicians themselves, who, to be fair, could probably afford it if they sold their instuments...
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:43 PM   #1046
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Of course, before Fuxit, this was all pretty much free as it came with free movement. Anything put in place now is going to cost, which is a charge to be born by the musicians themselves, who, to be fair, could probably afford it if they sold their instuments...
Indeed, control of our borders and who comes into the country was the main issue on the leave side. Obviously control on our side would be mirrored on the EU side. I mean they couldn't have thought it was one sided. No one in their right minds would think that. Surely they realised. ****, they didn't have a ******* clue did they?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:36 PM   #1047
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The EU already offered this government access. Government said, no, it wants sovereignty.

80-seat majority it can do what it likes.
This government won't always be in power.

Meanwhile, it's not the end of the world.

This is the travel guidance:
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:51 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
This government won't always be in power.

Meanwhile, it's not the end of the world.

This is the travel guidance:https://musiciansunion.org.uk/Musici...R.jpg?ext=.jpg
Are you taking the piss now? That's a total nightmare. My son's (occasional) band used to just load up and go. If the financial return is marginal or even just covers costs nobody will jump through those hoops to plat at a weekend music festival in the EU.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:53 PM   #1049
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It's not a total nightmare.

What is a total nightmare for songwriters is the demise of album sales.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:55 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It's not a total nightmare.

What is a total nightmare for songwriters is the demise of album sales.
A totally o/t response. Get a grip.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:10 PM   #1051
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I have musician friends who have toured Europe, and they're South African.
South Africans require visas. Their tours are profitable.

You're over-reacting.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:33 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And they'll still be able to play those venues.
With all the extra fees and hassle that you helpfully voted for
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:37 PM   #1053
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Life goes on.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:37 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I have musician friends who have toured Europe, and they're South African.
South Africans require visas. Their tours are profitable.

You're over-reacting.
How much profit because I strongly suspect you actually mean "covered their costs"
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:38 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Life goes on.
You could have just saved us the time and said "I simply don't care about anyone negatively effected by Brexit"
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:56 PM   #1056
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And you could have saved time and said "I simply don't care about anyone positively affected by Brexit".

But of course, I do care.

I just care about democracy more than economics.
Democracy is more important than any of us.
And in so many ways, in so many fields of policy, democratic choice was gone.
And now it is restored.

At a future election, in the manifestos of opposition parties, alternative policies can be put forwards.
Potential alternatives, with different rules for musicians can be put forwards.

Last edited by Airfix; 3rd March 2021 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:08 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I have musician friends who have toured Europe, and they're South African.
South Africans require visas. Their tours are profitable.

You're over-reacting.
It depends on the nature of the tour, doesn't it?

Is it worth it for the money/effort? Yes - go ahead. It used to, but now it doesn't - let's not bother.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:33 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And you could have saved time and said "I simply don't care about anyone positively affected by Brexit".

But of course, I do care.

I just care about democracy more than economics.
Democracy is more important than any of us.
And in so many ways, in so many fields of policy, democratic choice was gone.
And now it is restored.

At a future election, in the manifestos of opposition parties, alternative policies can be put forwards.
Potential alternatives, with different rules for musicians can be put forwards.
There's still going to be costs incurred that wouldn't otherwise have existed.

Free movement covered the costs. Now there will be charges for visas and paperwork.

I really don't think you have a clue.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:03 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It's not a total nightmare.

What is a total nightmare for songwriters is the demise of album sales.
What does that have to do with live performance, gigging and 'jobbing' musicians?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:04 PM   #1060
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Brexit: EU says UK grace period extension breaches international law

The EU says a UK move to unilaterally extend grace periods for Irish Sea border checks will be a breach of international law.

Northern Ireland has remained a part of the EU's single market for goods so products arriving from GB undergo EU import procedures.

The grace periods mean procedures and checks are not yet fully applied.

The first of these periods will expire at the end of March, but the UK has said it will be extended until October.

European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič said the move amounted to "a violation of the relevant substantive provisions" of the Brexit deal on Northern Ireland, known as the NI Protocol.

He said the EU would respond in accordance with the "legal means" established by the protocol and the wider Brexit deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56262527


Complying with treaties, who knew it would be so difficult?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:23 PM   #1061
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One of my friends is a busy professional session guitarist and plays with several bands.
He says that the new arrangements will make a lot of work he does in Europe uneconomic.

Not that he can do much work at the moment anyway. None of the bands can gig.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:22 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Ask the British musicians, actors etc who used to travel and work freely all over Europe and are now going to have to compete for jobs with equally talented professionals from 27 countries who don't need visas after just 90 days.
Ya lost me with this argument, Pixel42. Didn't such UK talent have to compete with that of all 27 EU countries before Brexit?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:40 PM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
5. The UK is less attractive to seasonal migrants meaning a lot of our industries where we struggle to get UK workers will not get the staff they need to supply their goods. It will hit the local economy.
6. It will also make it harder to get UK goods in the supermarket if those goods are still rotting in a field.
I think an economist would argue that the problem is not the availability of seasonal workers but rather that UK employers are not willing to pay local workers enough to get them to take seasonal jobs. Now, you might argue that that would raise the cost of seasonal goods - and you'd be absolutely right. Thus, the demand for such goods would decrease, lessening the demand for seasonal labor, etc., etc. until a new market equilibrium is reached.

Another argument is that easing the restrictions on non-local season workers ends up dumping their home countries with the costs of the workers when they get old or injured and can no longer do the work. This case is worsened if the seasonal workers pay local taxes on their labor yet when they no longer work, they consume social services in their home country which has not been able to tax their labor.

These points may be off topic regarding Brexit and, if so, we can just drop it. I myself could find large holes in these points and bring them up more as a discussion topic, not something that is at the core of my ideology.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:57 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Ya lost me with this argument, Pixel42. Didn't such UK talent have to compete with that of all 27 EU countries before Brexit?
Yes but they weren't restricted to just 90 days in a year and they didn't have to jump through administrative hoops.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:58 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I think an economist would argue that the problem is not the availability of seasonal workers but rather that UK employers are not willing to pay local workers enough to get them to take seasonal jobs. Now, you might argue that that would raise the cost of seasonal goods - and you'd be absolutely right. Thus, the demand for such goods would decrease, lessening the demand for seasonal labor, etc., etc. until a new market equilibrium is reached.

Another argument is that easing the restrictions on non-local season workers ends up dumping their home countries with the costs of the workers when they get old or injured and can no longer do the work. This case is worsened if the seasonal workers pay local taxes on their labor yet when they no longer work, they consume social services in their home country which has not been able to tax their labor.

These points may be off topic regarding Brexit and, if so, we can just drop it. I myself could find large holes in these points and bring them up more as a discussion topic, not something that is at the core of my ideology.
People don't want seasonal agricultural work anymore.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:48 PM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brexit: EU says UK grace period extension breaches international law

The EU says a UK move to unilaterally extend grace periods for Irish Sea border checks will be a breach of international law.

Northern Ireland has remained a part of the EU's single market for goods so products arriving from GB undergo EU import procedures.

The grace periods mean procedures and checks are not yet fully applied.

The first of these periods will expire at the end of March, but the UK has said it will be extended until October.

European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič said the move amounted to "a violation of the relevant substantive provisions" of the Brexit deal on Northern Ireland, known as the NI Protocol.

He said the EU would respond in accordance with the "legal means" established by the protocol and the wider Brexit deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56262527


Complying with treaties, who knew it would be so difficult?
I'm sure this is the EU's fault. After all, they forced the UK to not be prepared for the realities of Brexit, then horribly decided to give *another* extension of the old rules the UK wants to be rid of, so now the UK has no choice but the extend those rules they don't want unilaterally.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:01 PM   #1067
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A reminder of the exchange which started this discussion about British musicians working in Europe:

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Immigration is not why I voted leave, but there are benefits to both parties from immigration controls.
Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
Which are far outweighed by the negatives of ending free movement.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
LOL

Such as ?
I gave one example, Lothian listed 10. Airfix ignored Lothian's list, and has now dismissed mine with

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Life goes on.
Which I take as at least an acknowledgement that there are indeed negatives.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:25 PM   #1068
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Ya lost me with this argument, Pixel42. Didn't such UK talent have to compete with that of all 27 EU countries before Brexit?
They had to compete with non EU countries too, but freedom of movement gave them an advantage over them which they have now lost, and talent from EU countries still has. Employers are bound to favour those who they know will have no problem with visas etc, you can't really blame them.

It's like how British farmers preferred to employ migrant workers from the EU over those from other countries, because there was so much less hassle getting them here to pick their crops.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:49 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Ya lost me with this argument, Pixel42. Didn't such UK talent have to compete with that of all 27 EU countries before Brexit?
I’ve mentioned before about a company I was doing some contract work for. They had two studios, one in the UK, one in an EU country. During crunch periods - such as needing to hit a contractual deadline - they could move people between those two studios as needed with no hassle. It gave them a lot of flexibility. That “free movement” flexibility no longer exists. They are now in the process of closing the UK studio and expanding the EU studio. And they can’t even offer a good relocation package to some of the key members they’d really like to keep, because they are not eligible under the immigration policies of the EU country.

The U.K. ‘creative industry” has a very good reputation, often considered the best in the world. So if I was producing a TV show last year and the on location filming was in say Croatia and there was an issue it would not be unusual for someone to say “Get hold of Bob (in the UK) and see if he can get his team here tomorrow at the latest”. Bob had a team he could fly out that afternoon. Hey presto - problem averted and the production is completed on time. Now if Bob’s team wasn’t available they might try Roberto (in Italy), his teams aren’t quite as good but we could probably manage. Sadly today I’d ring Bob and Bob would say “Yeah I’ve got a team I can fly out, I’ll just need to get their work permits/visas sorted out - I should be able to have them to you by middle of next week,”. Guess what - Roberto gets the contract.
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Old 4th March 2021, 01:17 AM   #1070
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As an example of UK musicians touring the EU, browsing through the provisional lineup for Roskilde Festival 2021*, of the 69nice bands and performers currently on the bill, 15 are from the UK. And most of are these aren't headliner act, who will presumably have large-ish tours set up which can recover the cost of the barriers, but the likes of Welsh dream pop DJ's (Kelly Lee Owens), folk and indie rock (Cate Le Bon), and grime (Slowthai).

* It's still very much touch and go whether or not it will go ahead, it's set to start at the end of June, with the current vaccine schedule suggesting the vaccination effort will be completed by mid-June.
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:54 AM   #1071
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The EU already offered this government access. Government said, no, it wants sovereignty.

80-seat majority it can do what it likes.
If Airfix had bothered to research the issue s/he'd have found this out; I linked to the ISM's take on the matter.
On six occasions last year (03JUN, 22JUN, 10SEP, 21OCT, 16NOV and 22DEC) the BoJo regime repeatedly gave assurances to the music sector that free travel would be preserved. It lied. Apparently "sovereignty", blue passports and rotting fish are more important.
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:56 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Are you taking the piss now? That's a total nightmare. My son's (occasional) band used to just load up and go. If the financial return is marginal or even just covers costs nobody will jump through those hoops to plat at a weekend music festival in the EU.
S/He doesn't understand the realities of such matters and has displayed noreal care for those effected.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It's not a total nightmare.

What is a total nightmare for songwriters is the demise of album sales.
You are, as usual, spouting complete nonsense in another pathetic attempt to distract from the unpleasant, even disastrous, consequences of Brexit.
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:57 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Life goes on.
Ah, Brexiteers in a nutshell.
"Screw everyone else there'll be fewer brown people".
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:59 AM   #1074
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brexit: EU says UK grace period extension breaches international law

The EU says a UK move to unilaterally extend grace periods for Irish Sea border checks will be a breach of international law.

Northern Ireland has remained a part of the EU's single market for goods so products arriving from GB undergo EU import procedures.

The grace periods mean procedures and checks are not yet fully applied.

The first of these periods will expire at the end of March, but the UK has said it will be extended until October.

European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič said the move amounted to "a violation of the relevant substantive provisions" of the Brexit deal on Northern Ireland, known as the NI Protocol.

He said the EU would respond in accordance with the "legal means" established by the protocol and the wider Brexit deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56262527


Complying with treaties, who knew it would be so difficult?
Yep, more UKian incompetence and bad faith. Further disincentive for anyone to do business with the UK.
From what I've heard the EU's possible retaliation will be very unpleasant for the City of London.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:00 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
People don't want seasonal agricultural work anymore.
Indeed. It's been a while since the London poor flocked to Kent to pick hops for the summer.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:30 AM   #1076
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Students used to do crop picking in the summer, that doesn't happen these days.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:34 AM   #1077
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It depends on the nature of the tour, doesn't it?

Is it worth it for the money/effort? Yes - go ahead. It used to, but now it doesn't - let's not bother.
They normally make a profit so their tours are worth it for the effort.
However sometimes they've been robbed and have had to replace instruments.

A danger for any band really.

Big problem for them at the moment is Covid, they cannot tour.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:42 AM   #1078
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Students used to do crop picking in the summer, that doesn't happen these days.
They still could, if idiots didn't assume what they want and don't want to do to have a bit of money of their own.

I did all kinds of jobs between school and college and sometimes during college too.
Everything from factory work to traffic counting and even film extra work.

You'll not find a more boring job than being a film extra, most of it is sitting around talking to other extras.
However, the pay however, is excellent.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:45 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Students used to do crop picking in the summer, that doesn't happen these days.
In part because the job now requires sufficient skills that "casual" labour cannot do it economically.
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Old 4th March 2021, 03:51 AM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
They still could, if idiots didn't assume what they want and don't want to do to have a bit of money of their own.

I did all kinds of jobs between school and college and sometimes during college too.
Everything from factory work to traffic counting and even film extra work.

You'll not find a more boring job than being a film extra, most of it is sitting around talking to other extras.
However, the pay however, is excellent.
Well.

You had a bunch of people willing to do these jobs. But these are not allowed to do it anymore.

In other news.
News here (Netherlands) speaks about Northern Irish militants revoking their support of the Good Friday agreement, because of the Brexit.
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