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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:59 AM   #241
Caroline13
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatm...p-replacement/



Hip replacement surgery has helped millions of people. It sucks if you're one of the few it didn't help, but to use that single experience as an excuse to condemn not only the procedure itself but the whole of modern medicine is utterly ridiculous.
FEW??? Have you been down this road? I've talked to plenty who have done joint replacements and live with the aftermath damage. And some one mentioned repeat, so traumatize the body more. Not this gal, I live with what damage was done the first time and only HOPE there will be no more. Many do end up in wheelchairs as they have been infections, metal/plastic removed, and new parts put in and it's a vicious cycle of major surgeries.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:23 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...I don't care about stats. I'm crippled from hip replacement and boy did I read the stats pre surgery.
Do you realize this conspiracy you imagine requires the participation of...?

* virtually every relevant federal agency
* virtually every state/local health agency
* virtually every major hospital
* John Hopkins and other universities

Never mind a high fallutin word like "stat". Would you like me to dig up the covid death count as reported directly by a county agency of your choosing, and then we compare that number to the number that John Hopkins or another data aggregator reports?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:24 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
FEW???
There are some figures here:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hip-replacement/risks/

5% of patients experience a loosening of the joint, less than 1% get an infection, 7% need further surgery after 13 years ...

So yes, few. Far, far more people are better off as a result of hip replacement than are worse off.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:32 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
FEW??? Have you been down this road? I've talked to plenty who have done joint replacements and live with the aftermath damage. And some one mentioned repeat, so traumatize the body more. Not this gal, I live with what damage was done the first time and only HOPE there will be no more. Many do end up in wheelchairs as they have been infections, metal/plastic removed, and new parts put in and it's a vicious cycle of major surgeries.
Again I will ask the question that has yet to be answered: What was your condition BEFORE your hip replacement? Why did you have it in the first place?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:41 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Again I will ask the question that has yet to be answered: What was your condition BEFORE your hip replacement? Why did you have it in the first place?
I'm sure her hip was fine right up until the nasty allopathic docs got their hands on it. Then it was all downhill. She should have just stayed with her supplements.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:50 PM   #246
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That hugely popular book, "How to Lie With Statistics," has done a lot of harm. Simple folks latch onto the mere title and think that it's a refutation of any sort of quantification. They can get quite loud and angry -- at once scornful and frightened, I think -- if you start to use a statistical argument against them.

Proud ignorance, assertive ignorance, truculent ignorance, dangerous ignorance: that hideous strength!

Sorry, I meant to say, that piteous weakness. Aw hell, I wish it was.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:52 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I'm sure her hip was fine right up until the nasty allopathic docs got their hands on it. Then it was all downhill. She should have just stayed with her supplements.
Ah, so it was a cosmetic hip replacement. Only in the USA!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:19 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I've nearly died twice on the operating table in operations that are considered safe outpatient procedures.
And that's completely expected.

Anti-science folk simply don't appreciate how utterly deadly the world was before science-based medicine was adopted. There's a reason why the child mortality rate before the 19th century was FIFTY percent.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:21 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Oh I ended up in the ER in the 80's from a pharma drug, that was my turningpoint on the heavy duty drug world... And 2 surgeries and if I ever go fr a knife again, I need a major head examine.

30 yrs of sciatic nerve damage from hysterectomy when I was in my early 40's.

10yrs+ of body damage from hip replacement at 72.

That's it and want NO MORE. Thank goodness I'm retired and now need to count on friends/family to get where I have an appt.

And Yes, I do all I can to avoid major drugs and surgeries NOW.
My surgeries have gone all just fine. Maybe you're just unlucky and are extrapolating from your experience to the rest of the world.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:25 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I'm not a homeopathic doctor for starters. And it's all about "like cures like"...look it up.
We've looked it up extensively through the years. Probably more than you. Homeopahy doesn't work beyond placebo. It's water and sugar pills, and nothing more. That's a mathematical fact. And if you think "water" has a memory of what molecules it's been in contact with and it doesn't kill you, I have a bridge to sell you.

Quote:
I dare you.
I dare you to read peer-reviewed articles on tests of homeopathy, rather than pro-homeopathy booklets and anecdotes. If it worked, doctors would LOVE to prescribe it.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:29 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy stats as MOST are manipulated by and for the stat takers...
And where do you derive this little bit of knowledge?

Don't tell me: "common sense"?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:13 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I've talked to plenty who have done joint replacements and live with the aftermath damage. And some one mentioned repeat, so traumatize the body more.
And I have talked with many who have had hip replacements, and have praised it highly. Yours and my stories are what is known as anecdotes: worthless.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 08:38 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are some figures here:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hip-replacement/risks/

5% of patients experience a loosening of the joint, less than 1% get an infection, 7% need further surgery after 13 years ...

So yes, few. Far, far more people are better off as a result of hip replacement than are worse off.
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period..so much we don't know that goes on in the world anyway and to count on numbers???? omg...
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Old 3rd March 2021, 08:41 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
And I have talked with many who have had hip replacements, and have praised it highly. Yours and my stories are what is known as anecdotes: worthless.
How many is many? I've been on replacement forums from all over the world, and talked and hear stories from MANY MANY MANY and I don't have a count...

How many have your talked to? What is your Many?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 08:47 PM   #255
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You avoid those numbers, eh? Do you ever balance your checkbook? Count the number of pineapple chunks to put on your pizza? Estimate how much longer you can drive before needing to fill up again? Look at the clock? Count you homeopathic pills?

Yeah, me neither. Numbers are so 60s, right?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:15 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period..so much we don't know that goes on in the world anyway and to count on numbers???? omg...
i think you’re overplaying the Poe angle on your trolling now.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:36 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
How many is many? I've been on replacement forums from all over the world, and talked and hear stories from MANY MANY MANY and I don't have a count...

How many have your talked to? What is your Many?
You understand that the people who frequent such forums are overwhelmingly going to be from the small percentage who have problems, whilst the vast majority who are fine just get on with enjoying their better quality of life?

Of course you don't understand that. You think that anecdotes are a more reliable source of information than rigorously collected and audited numbers. Which is just about the wrongest of wrong things it is possible to believe.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:30 AM   #258
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I'm not sure whether to scold people for beating up a 10 yr old or laugh at being duped by a troll....but this at least had mild entertainment value (briefly).

Well I'm off to take my ginko balboa and deer antler supplements.
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Old 4th March 2021, 04:55 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period..so much we don't know that goes on in the world anyway and to count on numbers???? omg...
Immediately followed by:

Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
How many is many? I've been on replacement forums from all over the world, and talked and hear stories from MANY MANY MANY and I don't have a count...

How many have your talked to? What is your Many?
'How many' is a question generally answered with a number.
Why ask for something you have already said you won't accept as an answer?

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
i think you’re overplaying the Poe angle on your trolling now.
I think you may be on to something there.
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Old 4th March 2021, 05:21 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
I'm not sure whether to scold people for beating up a 10 yr old or laugh at being duped by a troll....but this at least had mild entertainment value (briefly).

Well I'm off to take my ginko balboa and deer antler supplements.
Actually a self-proclaimed octogenarian. And there are web sites (Caroline13 gets all her "information" on line so that must be a reliable source) that tell us what happens to the brains of persons of advanced age, right?

But yeah, I think these posts are intended primarily for entertainment purposes.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:20 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Actually a self-proclaimed octogenarian.
Age ain't nothin' but a number.

You kids think you're so clever with your "data" and your "facts" and your "statistics". Well. Get off my lawn of "Truths". Or something.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:02 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
How many is many? I've been on replacement forums from all over the world, and talked and hear stories from MANY MANY MANY and I don't have a count...

How many have your talked to? What is your Many?
Of course there is a huge selection bias in those forums, because people with good results like my mom, grandfather, and several coworkers don't go on forums to talk about their experiences.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:06 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period..so much we don't know that goes on in the world anyway and to count on numbers???? omg...
This from someone who has already demonstrated that they don't know how the NHS works...Nor how science works...

We're not selling you the NHS data (we already have a government that would like to do that), but it is real and carefully collated by the likes of me or my sister and hosts of other clinicians filling in loadsa forms with loadsa data points and outcome codes and all sorts. We have one of the best healthcare data sets in the world, which is precisely why so many drug companies and private healcare providers are keen to get their mitts on it.

And I've already trumped your hip anecdote with my parents' careers - their anecdotal experience would tie with the figures you "don't buy".
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:09 AM   #264
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Naw, Carenline's got a point. Watch out for them numbers. They can add up to trouble.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:11 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
I'm not sure whether to scold people for beating up a 10 yr old or laugh at being duped by a troll....but this at least had mild entertainment value (briefly).

Well I'm off to take my ginko balboa and deer antler supplements.
Several of us have made comments about the possible nature of certain posters, but we got banished for being too specific.

And as specific responses to specific claims are never answered by the claimee, I'm tending to view it as a general rebuttal or refutation or whatever, just to keep the record straight.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:14 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Naw, Carenline's got a point. Watch out for them numbers. They can add up to trouble.
Naaah, they add up to nothing. Especially if red means run, son.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:44 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period.
Of course you don't. You've convinced yourself that real data is fake data and that your feelings are real data.

You've managed to insulate yourself from reality.
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:42 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
How many is many? I've been on replacement forums from all over the world, and talked and hear stories from MANY MANY MANY and I don't have a count...

How many have your talked to? What is your Many?

I thought you did not like numbers?
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:08 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I thought you did not like numbers?
So, kind of what I asked yesterday, then:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Immediately followed by:



'How many' is a question generally answered with a number.
Why ask for something you have already said you won't accept as an answer?



I think you may be on to something there.
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:39 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
I'm not sure whether to scold people for beating up a 10 yr old or laugh at being duped by a troll....but this at least had mild entertainment value (briefly).
I take it you are familiar with the term "chew-toy"? It's sorta fun watching them dig themselves deeper into very hole they started in, in the vain hope they can convince us they will come out in China. Like so many before.

Quote:
Well I'm off to take my ginko balboa and deer antler supplements.
Want to fell (ahem) horny, eh?
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Old 5th March 2021, 12:29 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Age ain't nothin' but a number.

You kids think you're so clever with your "data" and your "facts" and your "statistics". Well. Get off my lawn of "Truths". Or something.
When I hear that from people's mouth, it's nothing but a number, I can about scream....

Oh if I could only do what I did at the numbers 40, 50 and 60's...I'd be in heaven or pretty high.
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Old 5th March 2021, 12:32 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I take it you are familiar with the term "chew-toy"? It's sorta fun watching them dig themselves deeper into very hole they started in, in the vain hope they can convince us they will come out in China. Like so many before.

Want to fell (ahem) horny, eh?
Norman, I took some deer antler supps years back and then when a great doc did labs on DHEA, and found how the tank was pretty low, I've been taking DHEA for over 20 yrs..he tested me at the age of 60, DHEA starts to decline at about 20 on.

I may have a thread here on Libido and DHEA or maybe it's on another group I'm on.

Why isn't there a thread like:

Other Than Allopathic Medicine

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Old 5th March 2021, 01:30 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Norman, I took some deer antler supps years back and then when a great doc did labs on DHEA, and found how the tank was pretty low, I've been taking DHEA for over 20 yrs..he tested me at the age of 60, DHEA starts to decline at about 20 on.
Whatever supplements you are taking, you look to be taking too much. Would you like to wait until the effect wears off and then form these words into a coherent sentence?

Quote:
I may have a thread here on Libido and DHEA or maybe it's on another group I'm on.
Planet, not group.

Quote:
Why isn't there a thread like:

Other Than Allopathic Medicine
All the other threads here are "other than allopathic medicine". There's no such thing as "allopathic" medicine. That is entirely a made-up theory by homeopaths, like "fairy dust". Thought that had been made clear to you. Clearly you need more practice in comprehension.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:51 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
When I hear that from people's mouth, it's nothing but a number, I can about scream....

Oh if I could only do what I did at the numbers 40, 50 and 60's...I'd be in heaven or pretty high.
Hmm. I thought you were the one who didn't buy numbers.
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Old 6th March 2021, 07:04 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Norman, I took some deer antler supps years back and then when a great doc did labs on DHEA, and found how the tank was pretty low, I've been taking DHEA for over 20 yrs..he tested me at the age of 60, DHEA starts to decline at about 20 on.

I may have a thread here on Libido and DHEA or maybe it's on another group I'm on.

Why isn't there a thread like:

Other Than Allopathic Medicine
Because nobody started one. You can do it, if you want one.

Hans
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Old 6th March 2021, 09:11 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There's no such thing as "allopathic" medicine. That is entirely a made-up theory by homeopaths, like "fairy dust".

Well, not quite. The medicine that Hahnemann derided as “allopathic” was based on the concept of balancing ‘humours’, and the idea that introducing an opposite effect would cure the patient. Modern medicine doesn’t do this, of course, but there are systems that rely on the same ideas still in use. In India, for example, they have Ayurveda and Unani. Ayurveda calls its humours “doshas”, and has three of them instead of four, but the founding principle is the same. Unani is in fact essentially the same Hippocratic/Galenic medicine that prescientific European medicine was based on. Ironically, they are both administered by the same Indian government department as homeopathy.

See also TCM, although that only has two humours.
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Last edited by Mojo; 6th March 2021 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Autocorrect!
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Old 6th March 2021, 09:18 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Why isn't there a thread like:

Other Than Allopathic Medicine

Searching the forum for threads tagged with “homeopathy” finds 500 of them.
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Old 6th March 2021, 09:58 AM   #278
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Caroline13, you'd love our old pal Kumar. Better than anybody else ever did.
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Old 7th March 2021, 11:26 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I don't buy your numbers, I don't buy numbers period..so much we don't know that goes on in the world anyway and to count on numbers???? omg...
I'm sure that approach works like a charm for managing your finances.

Last edited by CORed; 7th March 2021 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 7th March 2021, 07:34 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you thinking of the 1955 Beecher “powerful placebo” paper?
Again, I do not recall the specific details. I'm pretty sure this is one of the ones that were discussed over the course of many episodes. There were others. An example is below.

Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Placebo is not bad in itself. There are many conditions that cannot be helped, but if a placebo treatment helps, then that is much better than no treatment at all.
Except when you take into account measurable outcomes, rather than subjective self-reports.

There was an asthma study where placebo inhalers were tested against ones with active ingredients. Again, no cite because I'm going from memory. It was widely reported that the people in the placebo group had significant improvement over the control group. Except that what improved was the patients' self-report of their condition. When actual lung function was measured, there was no difference. The only thing that actually changed is that the patients said that they felt better even when by objective measures there was no significant improvement.

So yeah, I guess you could say that people thinking they feel better is a better outcome than people not thinking they feel better, but surely actual improvement is what we're interested in?
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