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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:46 PM   #1601
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So do that at the link you supplied and then justify your use of "a lot".
Somewhere on this forum, perhaps in this thread, is an actual tally of Confederate and not so Confederate. Among the ones toppled by mobs, the not so Confederates were higher. Among total removed, Confederates were higher.

I think the non-Confederate total is in the low '50s, if memory serves. Since "a lot" is an ill defined term, I won't justify it.

ETA: Memory was way off. Here's the link.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13373581
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:55 PM   #1602
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Somewhere on this forum, perhaps in this thread, is an actual tally of Confederate and not so Confederate. Among the ones toppled by mobs, the not so Confederates were higher. Among total removed, Confederates were higher.

I think the non-Confederate total is in the low '50s, if memory serves. Since "a lot" is an ill defined term, I won't justify it.
As long as we're categorizing though, the "not so confederate" statues were not really heavy on people generally considered to be "founding fathers".

You've got Columbus, conquistadors, etc.

I suppose it depends a bit on who you consider to be a "founding Father"
The term is generally used to identify a fairly narrow group of people ranging from around 7 to all the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Of those people, I just noticed Washington and Jefferson on the statue list. I may have missed someone.

They accounted for about 5 statues on the list (Again, I did a rough quick count, so correct me if I missed one).

Of those 5, I believe two were simply moved for their own protection to indoor locations.

I certainly wouldn't call that nothing, but compared to the whole statue phenomena, it's not what I would call a lot.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:09 PM   #1603
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OK. So my take away from this is that there are >not< a lot of statues of Founding Fathers being taken down. And what few are being formally taken down or moved are usually done with good reason. Even if we agree it's appropriate to still be erecting statues of Thomas Jefferson, for example, it doesn't mean he should be everywhere. There is good reason to think he's not appropriate on a predominately black campus which was the case for one of his statues.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:21 PM   #1604
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Well, fortunately, people can count the statues if they want. Wikipedia has all the statues, their numbers, and the means of their removal.


Here's my point, and what caught my eye about Skeptical Greg's original post.

There are a lot of people who think that last summer, protestors tore down statues associated with the Confederacy. If you are one of those people, check the Wikipedia page and decide if the actual number and type of statues torn down or otherwise removed matches your memory. If it does not.......draw whatever conclusions you can from that data.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:29 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, fortunately, people can count the statues if they want. Wikipedia has all the statues, their numbers, and the means of their removal.


Here's my point, and what caught my eye about Skeptical Greg's original post.

There are a lot of people who think that last summer, protestors tore down statues associated with the Confederacy. If you are one of those people, check the Wikipedia page and decide if the actual number and type of statues torn down or otherwise removed matches your memory. If it does not.......draw whatever conclusions you can from that data.
Fair enough, I think you maybe were confused when you used the term "Founding Fathers" when you meant "Non confederate historical figures".
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:58 PM   #1606
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I wonder if anyone will ever dare to explore the racism of our founding fathers?

Because, racists, misogynists and etc. they certainly were..

Can they be excused because they didn't know they were these things?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:19 PM   #1607
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I wonder if anyone will ever dare to explore the racism of our founding fathers?

Because, racists, misogynists and etc. they certainly were..

Can they be excused because they didn't know they were these things?
That's kind of funny.

Will anyone ever dare to? I think the guys who pulled down their statues probably had it in their heads those guys were racists. I'll bet they read that somewhere. Whoever wrote the things they read, probably had dared to explore it.

For Pete's sake stuff about the racism of the founding fathers is everywhere. That's why people are demanding schools be renamed and statues taken down and whatever else is being done. These days, a better question is will people ever stop obsessing about the racism of the founding fathers and acknowledge that they did anything of value?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:47 PM   #1608
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Quote:
I think the guys who pulled down their statues probably had it in their heads those guys were racists.
I don't think the guys who pulled down their ( the founding fathers ) statues had a clue..
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:48 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I wonder if anyone will ever dare to explore the racism of our founding fathers?

Because, racists, misogynists and etc. they certainly were..

Can they be excused because they didn't know they were these things?
At this rate, I think the safest thing to do is to burn all of the history books, tear down all of the statues, get rid of most art, and pretty much erase the past from our consciousness. We certainly can't hold any person from the past in regard for anything they did, seeing as all of them did something that is currently unacceptable.

Yep. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:53 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
At this rate, I think the safest thing to do is to burn all of the history books, tear down all of the statues, get rid of most art, and pretty much erase the past from our consciousness. We certainly can't hold any person from the past in regard for anything they did, seeing as all of them did something that is currently unacceptable.

Yep. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Set up a stupid straw man and then immediately knock it down.

Brilliant.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:06 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's kind of funny.

Will anyone ever dare to? I think the guys who pulled down their statues probably had it in their heads those guys were racists. I'll bet they read that somewhere. Whoever wrote the things they read, probably had dared to explore it.

For Pete's sake stuff about the racism of the founding fathers is everywhere. That's why people are demanding schools be renamed and statues taken down and whatever else is being done. These days, a better question is will people ever stop obsessing about the racism of the founding fathers and acknowledge that they did anything of value?
I think there is a lot to admire about the founding fathers. The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights was a huge step forward in humanity and government. But the Constitution was far from perfect and the founders were just human beings.

Jefferson in his letters and in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence called for an end to slavery but he also owned hundreds of slaves and impregnated one of them was 16 and he was 46. You'd go to jail today for that. Madison, Jefferson, Washington were instrumental for founding this country and all three owned slaves. Hamilton had three duels and fooled around with the wives of others.

If you judged the founders by today's morals most would not be viewed that positively.

But I could care less if they tore down every Confederate monument. Why is there only one memorial to Thomas Paine and hundreds of monuments and memorials to the traitor Robert E Lee. Hell, Tennessee has a monument to Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate General and founder of the KKK overlooking the State Capitol.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:10 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
At this rate, I think the safest thing to do is to burn all of the history books, tear down all of the statues, get rid of most art, and pretty much erase the past from our consciousness. We certainly can't hold any person from the past in regard for anything they did, seeing as all of them did something that is currently unacceptable.

Yep. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
What absurdity. No one has suggested burning the history books.

But lets not whitewash history either. And maybe it's not a good idea to have statutes and public memorials to traitors and white supremacists.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:58 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What absurdity. No one has suggested burning the history books.

But lets not whitewash history either. And maybe it's not a good idea to have statutes and public memorials to traitors and white supremacists.
Care for an avatar bet? I hate forum avatars, so your win will be especially delicious.

By this time next year, there will be a history book burning, from the left.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:06 PM   #1614
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Care for an avatar bet? I hate forum avatars, so your win will be especially delicious.

By this time next year, there will be a history book burning, from the left.
I'm half tempted to take that one up myself. The left won't burn books. They know that burning books is bad. They don't understand why, and they don't get that the "burning" part is really just symbolism. I wouldn't take you up if you went to generic "book destruction" of some sort, but they won't burn.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:09 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think there is a lot to admire about the founding fathers. The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights was a huge step forward in humanity and government. But the Constitution was far from perfect and the founders were just human beings.

Jefferson in his letters and in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence called for an end to slavery but he also owned hundreds of slaves and impregnated one of them was 16 and he was 46. You'd go to jail today for that. Madison, Jefferson, Washington were instrumental for founding this country and all three owned slaves. Hamilton had three duels and fooled around with the wives of others.

If you judged the founders by today's morals most would not be viewed that positively.

But I could care less if they tore down every Confederate monument. Why is there only one memorial to Thomas Paine and hundreds of monuments and memorials to the traitor Robert E Lee. Hell, Tennessee has a monument to Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate General and founder of the KKK overlooking the State Capitol.
Agreed on all counts.

Although, I think that the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue is privately owned, on private land. I could be wrong about that, but either way, your point is still valid.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:27 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Care for an avatar bet? I hate forum avatars, so your win will be especially delicious.

By this time next year, there will be a history book burning, from the left.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm half tempted to take that one up myself. The left won't burn books. They know that burning books is bad. They don't understand why, and they don't get that the "burning" part is really just symbolism. I wouldn't take you up if you went to generic "book destruction" of some sort, but they won't burn.
I don't see the left burning history books either. At least nothing ritual.

But I do see the promotion of a little more honesty in our history books. Not the stuff I learned in public schools. I never understand why conservatives think that we should teach our children that the founders were perfect. Or this American exceptionalism. What's wrong with teaching students they were both exceptional and flawed?

Are we really forgetting history when we tear down one of hundreds of statutes to White Supremacists and traitors? Aren't there actual real patriots and servants available to celebrate? Why not Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman or John Brown? How about Medgar Evers or Shirley Chisholm?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:31 PM   #1617
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't see the left burning history books either. At least nothing ritual.

But I do see the promotion of a little more honesty in our history books. Not the stuff I learned in public schools. I never understand why conservatives think that we should teach our children that the founders were perfect. Or this American exceptionalism. What's wrong with teaching students they were both exceptional and flawed?

Are we really forgetting history when we tear down one of hundreds of statutes to White Supremacists and traitors? Aren't there actual real patriots and servants available to celebrate? Why not Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman or John Brown? How about Medgar Evers or Shirley Chisholm?
I went to high school in the '70s. They sure as heck didn't teach me that the founders were unflawed or that the constitution was perfect. Maybe it was just because I had a young teacher, in his first year out of college.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:37 PM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Agreed on all counts.

Although, I think that the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue is privately owned, on private land. I could be wrong about that, but either way, your point is still valid.
I just discovered it is not there now. It was removed and is in the possession of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. It will be put into a private museum where the racists can give it the NAZI salute and burn crosses on its lawn.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:40 PM   #1619
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I went to high school in the '70s. They sure as heck didn't teach me that the founders were unflawed or that the constitution was perfect. Maybe it was just because I had a young teacher, in his first year out of college.
We're about the same age. My memory of what they taught me in high school is a bit fuzzy. I do remember being surprised a great deal in college.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:48 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We're about the same age. My memory of what they taught me in high school is a bit fuzzy. I do remember being surprised a great deal in college.
I suspect that the young teacher was probably important in my case. Attitudes were changing a lot during that period, and a guy fresh out of college probably had different ideas than a 50 year old guy who was educated during the depression and fought in World War II.

I remember American History in the 8th grade, and thinking it was pretty much propaganda. I also had a young teacher for that one, too, but she wasn't very knowledgeable. I am sure she didn't know anything that wasn't in the book, and the book was pretty biased toward the pro-American side.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 08:34 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suspect that the young teacher was probably important in my case. Attitudes were changing a lot during that period, and a guy fresh out of college probably had different ideas than a 50 year old guy who was educated during the depression and fought in World War II.

I remember American History in the 8th grade, and thinking it was pretty much propaganda. I also had a young teacher for that one, too, but she wasn't very knowledgeable. I am sure she didn't know anything that wasn't in the book, and the book was pretty biased toward the pro-American side.
I'm quite biased towards America. This is a great country. And many of the founders were highly educated and great thinkers. There is so much to admire about some of these men. But they were men. Flawed and so was the country and its development.

The fact that this country's foundation is not only those great men but slavery and how it affected everything is still evident today. That there are White Supremacists in Congress today and the GOP is still actively trying to prevent people of color from voting is part of that legacy.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 08:54 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm quite biased towards America. This is a great country. And many of the founders were highly educated and great thinkers. There is so much to admire about some of these men. But they were men. Flawed and so was the country and its development.

The fact that this country's foundation is not only those great men but slavery and how it affected everything is still evident today. That there are White Supremacists in Congress today and the GOP is still actively trying to prevent people of color from voting is part of that legacy.
Yeah, "pro-American" was a bad choice of words. I'm pretty pro-American, too, although I probably wouldn't have described myself that way until I was at least 25. I meant, of course, jingoistic, America is always right, pro-American, where Indians and slaves were mentioned briefly, and America won World War II pretty much by themselves.

My high school teacher was nothing like that, and the book (The American Pageant, 1976 edition) was much more balanced.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:08 PM   #1623
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, "pro-American" was a bad choice of words. I'm pretty pro-American, too, although I probably wouldn't have described myself that way until I was at least 25. I meant, of course, jingoistic, America is always right, pro-American, where Indians and slaves were mentioned briefly, and America won World War II pretty much by themselves.

My high school teacher was nothing like that, and the book (The American Pageant, 1976 edition) was much more balanced.
I haven't read that book. Do you recommend it?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:18 PM   #1624
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I haven't read that book. Do you recommend it?
No. I am told it is the most commonly used high school history text book in America today, although it has undergone many revisions since 1976. I don't know when it became dominant. My guess is that if my small town high school was using it, it was already dominant at that time.

I would say that if my memory serves correctly, it was a good high school history book, but unless that's what you are looking for, there's no need to read it.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:21 PM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No. I am told it is the most commonly used high school history text book in America today, although it has undergone many revisions since 1976. I don't know when it became dominant. My guess is that if my small town high school was using it, it was already dominant at that time.

I would say that if my memory serves correctly, it was a good high school history book, but unless that's what you are looking for, there's no need to read it.
I just googled it. I'm not a fan of history textbooks. They rarely grab your attention. But I love books on history though. There are some great biographies about the founding fathers. Highly recommend David McCullough's book on John Adams and 1776. Christopher Hitchens does a great job on Jefferson and Paine. Isaacson wrote a great page turner on Ben Franklin. Ron Chernow's book on Hamilton also.

You can download Thomas Paine's writings for free. Common Sense, The Rights of Man and The Age of Reason are must reads IMV. I doubt any writing at the time of the American Revolution summed up the character of the colonies better than Common Sense. Although it doesn't address slavery. It did more to end the practice of indentured servitude than any other. Hard to call it a book, because it was a series of pamphlets. But if you have never read it you will learn a lot about American thinking as he was really selling to the colonists the idea that America was a country and should be governed by people here.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:15 PM   #1626
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm half tempted to take that one up myself. The left won't burn books. They know that burning books is bad. They don't understand why, and they don't get that the "burning" part is really just symbolism. I wouldn't take you up if you went to generic "book destruction" of some sort, but they won't burn.
You're already wrong...
J.K. Rowling Book Burning Videos Are Spreading Like Wildfire Across TikTok

We haven't moved into history books yet, but book burning as a concept is apparently not as taboo as we might imagine.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:17 PM   #1627
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But I do see the promotion of a little more honesty in our history books. Not the stuff I learned in public schools.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I went to high school in the '70s. They sure as heck didn't teach me that the founders were unflawed or that the constitution was perfect.
I went to middle school and high school in the 80s. Predominantly on military bases. I was taught both the good and the bad of our founders.

I don't know where you went to school acbytesla, but I was definitely not taught that they were perfect.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:23 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're already wrong...
J.K. Rowling Book Burning Videos Are Spreading Like Wildfire Across TikTok

We haven't moved into history books yet, but book burning as a concept is apparently not as taboo as we might imagine.
<sigh>

Those who forget history....
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:35 PM   #1629
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I went to middle school and high school in the 80s. Predominantly on military bases. I was taught both the good and the bad of our founders.

I don't know where you went to school acbytesla, but I was definitely not taught that they were perfect.
I went to public school in Iowa and Washington State. They barely touched the issue of slavery or the hypocrisy of many of the founders. I remember well the absurd story about George Washington, the Cherry tree and how he could not tell a lie. But that was the 70s.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:40 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're already wrong...
J.K. Rowling Book Burning Videos Are Spreading Like Wildfire Across TikTok

We haven't moved into history books yet, but book burning as a concept is apparently not as taboo as we might imagine.
While I think this is stupid and misguided, nothing on the extremes surprises me any more. It should be noted that Harry Potter books are banned in many libraries in the US not because of Rowling's remarks but because of religious whackadoodles complaining about the witchcraft.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:41 PM   #1631
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It is more that they were going after statues that glorified people or causes that were racist.

So Jefferson wasn't in the Civil War, but he owned slaves and raped at least one of them. They knew who he was, and that he was not involved with the Civil War - but he was a slave owner.
If raping 14 year old slaves is wrong, you will have to seriously rework much history.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:44 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's kind of funny.

Will anyone ever dare to? I think the guys who pulled down their statues probably had it in their heads those guys were racists. I'll bet they read that somewhere. Whoever wrote the things they read, probably had dared to explore it.

For Pete's sake stuff about the racism of the founding fathers is everywhere. That's why people are demanding schools be renamed and statues taken down and whatever else is being done. These days, a better question is will people ever stop obsessing about the racism of the founding fathers and acknowledge that they did anything of value?
Hey there was the canceling of king Leopold II for being a basic european ruler and doing nothing great heroes of our past haven't done. I don't get why people try to make him out to be such a bad guy when the only real difference between him and columbus was that he wasn't convinced the earth was pear shaped.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:49 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're already wrong...
J.K. Rowling Book Burning Videos Are Spreading Like Wildfire Across TikTok

We haven't moved into history books yet, but book burning as a concept is apparently not as taboo as we might imagine.
The greatest tragedy since the famed disco demolition night!
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:51 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
<sigh>

Those who forget history....
Yea like how the Christians doing that to DND in the 80's have ended DND for all time!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh wait we are supposed to ignore all identical right wing actions I forget that some times.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:54 PM   #1635
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Well I guess we need to learn to reframe Henry Fords distrobution of the Protocalls of the Elders of Zion from some antisemitic statement against the jews and understand what it was, promoting free speech.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:55 PM   #1636
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The greatest tragedy since the famed disco demolition night!
Hey, I liked Disco music. Give me Earth Wind and Fire, Parliament, the Commodores and KC and the Sunshine Band any day.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:57 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hey, I liked Disco music. Give me Earth Wind and Fire, Parliament, the Commodores and KC and the Sunshine Band any day.
I am referring to this one of the greatest crimes in American history and it was perpetrated by Major League Baseball!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:57 PM   #1638
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I went to middle school and high school in the 80s. Predominantly on military bases. I was taught both the good and the bad of our founders.

I don't know where you went to school acbytesla, but I was definitely not taught that they were perfect.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
<sigh>

Those who forget history....
Spare us the melodramatics. Angsty teens burning their own copies of a book to protest the TERF author is by no means comparable to Nazis raiding libraries and the mass destruction of "degenerate" writing. You've never thrown away a book you're no longer interested in before?

Ironically enough, the first target of the Nazi book burning campaign was the Institute of Sexology, a groundbreaking institute that, among other topics, was one of the leading advocates of transgender people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instit...Transsexualism

This should be not be shocking because fascists are almost always vicious transphobes.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:58 PM   #1639
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I wonder if anyone will ever dare to explore the racism of our founding fathers?

Because, racists, misogynists and etc. they certainly were..

Can they be excused because they didn't know they were these things?
They hated women? I think you meant "sexist".
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Old 4th March 2021, 01:07 PM   #1640
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am referring to this one of the greatest crimes in American history and it was perpetrated by Major League Baseball!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night
I remember it well. A reactionary moment in time which signalled the beginning of the end of disco. Kind of sad moment for me. I liked disco.
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