The behaviour of US police officers - Page 21

lobosrul5 · 29th December 2018, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Baylor

The people on the left of this bar graph are.

https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png

https://www.nationmaster.com/country...d-States/Crime

The total homicide rate in Austria was only .5 per 100,000. So how could the firearms homicide rate be over 2?? That leads me to question the rest of your chart.

Baylor · 29th December 2018, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

https://www.nationmaster.com/country...d-States/Crime

The total homicide rate in Austria was only .5 per 100,000. So how could the firearms homicide rate be over 2?? That leads me to question the rest of your chart.

I'm not sure what year they're using but we went over similar statistics in my thought-provoking thread "White Americans and Europeans murder at about the same rate."

Nessie · 30th December 2018, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

You've made your disdain for black people very clear.

You are lying with that claim. Nothing in this thread shows disdain for any race. It shows disdain for the US police.

Baylor · 30th December 2018, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

You are lying with that claim. Nothing in this thread shows disdain for any race. It shows disdain for the US police.

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period.

Nessie · 30th December 2018, 03:53 AM

Nothing in that graph makes my comment racist. Fact is, the USA is very tolerant of its citizens and police shooting each other, a comment I base on the lack of positive action to reduce the number of shootings.

Or are YOU now suggesting that there is a tolerance because it is more of a black and hispanic than a white problem?

fagin · 30th December 2018, 03:55 AM

One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse.

Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ())

Per 100,000 of population.

USA - 4.62 (11.96)

Finland .32 (3.25)

Austria .12 (2.9)

France .21 (2.83)

Canada .16 (2.05)

Czech Rep .15 (2.01)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.

Matthew Best · 30th December 2018, 04:38 AM

That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist.

fagin · 30th December 2018, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist.

Originally Posted by fagin

One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse.

Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ())

Per 100,000 of population.

USA - 4.62 (11.96) - Injuns.

Finland .32 (3.25) - Vikings.

Austria .12 (2.9) - Saxons.

France .21 (2.83) - Gauls.

Canada .16 (2.05) - Beavers.

Czech Rep .15 (2.01) - probably foreigners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.

FTFY.

Nessie · 30th December 2018, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist.

I wonder if Baylor is being racists for not dividing up the Finnish, French etc figures into race?

jimbob · 30th December 2018, 07:32 AM

It has also been pointed out that violence correlates with poverty.

Nessie · 30th December 2018, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

It has also been pointed out that violence correlates with poverty.

The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence?

jimbob · 30th December 2018, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence?

No, but Baylor's charts don't control for that well-known influence.

Or for the effects of systematic and systemic discrimination which would promote crime.

The Norseman · 30th December 2018, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence?

See, it's absurd statements like this that have made me drop out of even attempting to have a decent conversation in this thread. This isn't the only or the first, just the latest in a foolish string of statements.

Nessie · 30th December 2018, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

See, it's absurd statements like this that have made me drop out of even attempting to have a decent conversation in this thread. This isn't the only or the first, just the latest in a foolish string of statements.

That was so absurd it must have obviously been for comic effect and a dig at another poster who makes ridiculous connections.

Baylor · 30th December 2018, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I wonder if Baylor is being racists for not dividing up the Finnish, French etc figures into race?

Those countries don't categorize murders based on race.

Baylor · 30th December 2018, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Nothing in that graph makes my comment racist.

Nessie · 31st December 2018, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

Those countries don't categorize murders based on race.

Are you sure about that? Can you produce their homicide statistics and show the race is not recorded?

In any case, I am talking generally about Americans, who are made up of many different races, often mixed.

So, when I say Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period, that is encompassing of all.

Nessie · 31st December 2018, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

https://i.imgur.com/liqOm2d.png

What is my problem with that? What has that got to do with my comment on how tolerant Americans are with shooting each other?

fagin · 31st December 2018, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

Originally Posted by fagin

One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse.

Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ())

Per 100,000 of population.

USA - 4.62 (11.96)

Finland .32 (3.25)

Austria .12 (2.9)

France .21 (2.83)

Canada .16 (2.05)

Czech Rep .15 (2.01)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.

The problem is your picture doesn't relate to reality. Looks like made up bollocks. Could you link to source.

Nessie · 31st December 2018, 03:29 AM

It is also not clear what it has to do with the thread topic.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 31st December 2018, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png

This chart tells me that, like almost everything else Americans hold in high esteem, black guys are better at it than white guys. Must be a real sore point for racists.

jimbob · 31st December 2018, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

Originally Posted by Baylor

Originally Posted by fagin

One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse.

Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ())

Per 100,000 of population.

USA - 4.62 (11.96)

Finland .32 (3.25)

Austria .12 (2.9)

France .21 (2.83)

Canada .16 (2.05)

Czech Rep .15 (2.01)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.

The problem is your picture doesn't relate to reality. Looks like made up bollocks. Could you link to source.

In answer to your guess about firearm homicide rate as a proportion of all US homicides, I have a graph of that from 2013, which supports your contention - I make it about 70% US homicides use firearms of some sort.

The raw numbers are below:

And this is my point about poverty affecting homicide rates:

lobosrul5 · 31st December 2018, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse.

Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ())

Per 100,000 of population.

USA - 4.62 (11.96)

Finland .32 (3.25)

Austria .12 (2.9)

France .21 (2.83)

Canada .16 (2.05)

Czech Rep .15 (2.01)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.

Where are you getting those total homicide rate numbers from? They all appear to be very high. Ie I'm seeing from Finlands own official report 73 murders/manslaughters in 2017. Which is a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 not 3.25 given their estimated population of 5.5 million.

https://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suolu...usolot_en.html

ETA: oh I see. 3.25 is not their total homicide rate its the total rate of firearms deaths including accidents and suicides. Its 11.96 in the USA.

ETA2: ahh and now I see how Nessie's chart is misleading. The other countries are listing the total firearms death rates including suicides and accidents (look at the numbers they match up almost perfectly to wiki). However, the US white rate is definitely not including suicides, because the suicide rate for white males by firearm is some 14 per 100,000. Even if women never killed themselves with firearms that would still be 7 per 100,000. ,

"the researchers found that white men had nine more firearm suicides per 100,000 people annually nationwide (5.41 for black men vs. 14.34 for white men)."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/healt...udy/index.html

ETA3: FYI that article does at times specify non-hispanic white.

fagin · 31st December 2018, 08:45 AM

The link below the numbers. First one I hit, which is why I said I can't be bothered to do a proper search in my post. The Finland figure is apparently 2013. I did look at a few more sites, which all seemed to be at least an order of magnitude lower than Baylor's picture, so really just want him to link to his source, as his whole graph seems to be bollocks, as your figure shows.

JoeMorgue · 31st December 2018, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is also not clear what it has to do with the thread topic.

"Racism is okay because blacks are bad because reasons."

lobosrul5 · 31st December 2018, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

The link below the numbers. First one I hit, which is why I said I can't be bothered to do a proper search in my post. The Finland figure is apparently 2013. I did look at a few more sites, which all seemed to be at least an order of magnitude lower than Baylor's picture, so really just want him to link to his source, as his whole graph seems to be bollocks, as your figure shows.

I may have added my "ETA's" after your reply. Your large number is the total number of people killed with firearms rate (it includes suicides), not the total homicide rate. I mean Austria's homicide rate has been under 1 for decades for example.

Baylor's chart is probably from a right wing source because they are using that number for other countries, while only including homicides for white American's.

autumn1971 · 31st December 2018, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

This doesn't seem to be the case. Had Bill Clinton's wife won the presidential election, she would have appointed two (three including Ginsburg's inevitable demise) activist justices who would have overturned DC v. Heller and would have adopted a "collectivist rights theory" interpretation of the second amendment.

You do realize that only one president in US history has gone on record as saying “take the guns now and then worry about due process.”

lobosrul5 · 31st December 2018, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

You do realize that only one president in US history has gone on record as saying “take the guns now and then worry about due process.”

I mean that only lasted like half a day until he flipped the TV on to see what Fox & Friends had to say about it.

autumn1971 · 31st December 2018, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I mean that only lasted like half a day until he flipped the TV on to see what Fox & Friends had to say about it.

Still boggles the mind that American Corporatists (don’t want to make them all triggered by simplifying that to Fascist) support the person who has suggested total government control, without any judge or doctor being involved, of a person’s right to own a gun.

Has any “liberal” ever even suggested such a thing?

lobosrul5 · 31st December 2018, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Still boggles the mind that American Corporatists (don’t want to make them all triggered by simplifying that to Fascist) support the person who has suggested total government control, without any judge or doctor being involved, of a person’s right to own a gun.

Has any “liberal” ever even suggested such a thing?

Anyone that suggests that personal rights be summarily dismissed for expediency without due process, is by definition not a liberal, they are an authoritarian.

Has anyone on the "left" in the US ever said something like "gun rights need to be ended, I don't care what it says in the Constitution". Yeah probably. A president or serious presidential candidate? No probably not.

pgwenthold · 31st December 2018, 12:52 PM

Here's a case of "the behavior of US police officers."

A young woman had her car break down on the highway and left it there. It had been noticed by a LEO, who tagged it to let everyone know they knew it was there.

The woman's father (reportedly) called the police to let them know he was on his way to take care of it, so went out to the car with his repair tools. He was working on the car, with the back hatch open and (in my understanding) was working underneath it. State police showed up.

Oh, did I mention that the guy working on the car wears a holster with a handgun in it? He does. The state policeman saw it, and, believing he was a robber looting the car, says he yelled some commands at the guy. Then, he says, the guy reached for his weapon, so the LEO shot him dead.

No video.

This isn't a case of LWB, because it was a white guy. It's a case of the system we have. You want to carry a weapon, it comes with a risk.

We don't have enough information here to know who is to blame, but it doesn't matter. When you have a gun culture like we have, mistakes are going to happen, and when they do, people die. This is the cost of freedom. Good guys with a gun? Responsible gun owners? There are some that are going to die. They are sacrificed.

lobosrul5 · 31st December 2018, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Here's a case of "the behavior of US police officers."

A young woman had her car break down on the highway and left it there. It had been noticed by a LEO, who tagged it to let everyone know they knew it was there.

The woman's father (reportedly) called the police to let them know he was on his way to take care of it, so went out to the car with his repair tools. He was working on the car, with the back hatch open and (in my understanding) was working underneath it. State police showed up.

Oh, did I mention that the guy working on the car wears a holster with a handgun in it? He does. The state policeman saw it, and, believing he was a robber looting the car, says he yelled some commands at the guy. Then, he says, the guy reached for his weapon, so the LEO shot him dead.

No video.

This isn't a case of LWB, because it was a white guy. It's a case of the system we have. You want to carry a weapon, it comes with a risk.

We don't have enough information here to know who is to blame, but it doesn't matter. When you have a gun culture like we have, mistakes are going to happen, and when they do, people die. This is the cost of freedom. Good guys with a gun? Responsible gun owners? There are some that are going to die. They are sacrificed.

We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone seen with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy.

Nessie · 31st December 2018, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone seen with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy.

Very well put.

jimbob · 31st December 2018, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone ~~seen~~they think might be with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy.

Minor correction

Baylor · 31st December 2018, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

So, when I say Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period, that is encompassing of all.

You continue to show off your naivete. It's not possible to generalize a multi-racial society like the United States the way you try. This also ignores the "positive action" that you claim doesn't exist, like Black Lives Matter. People who live in all white countries like Scotland have a very childlike view on race.

Baylor · 31st December 2018, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Racism is okay because blacks are bad because reasons."

"But when I ramble on endlessly how I hate black behavior....it's not about race...no.....it's....uh.......Americans I don't like....yeah......cause that's acceptable to the religion of skeptics......................"

Baylor · 31st December 2018, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is also not clear what it has to do with the thread topic.

That the US is multiracial society so it's not possible to apply the policing methods of a small lily white country like Norway or Scotland (lol).

That and it's proof you just plain don't like black people.

Baylor · 31st December 2018, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by fagin

The link below the numbers. First one I hit, which is why I said I can't be bothered to do a proper search in my post. The Finland figure is apparently 2013. I did look at a few more sites, which all seemed to be at least an order of magnitude lower than Baylor's picture, so really just want him to link to his source, as his whole graph seems to be bollocks, as your figure shows.

The US one is the only one of interest. And that is correct, confirmed months ago by several different people. Including: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12399486

Baylor · 31st December 2018, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

What is my problem with that? What has that got to do with my comment on how tolerant Americans are with shooting each other?

You don't like black behavior, black culture, black attitudes. You don't like black people. Saying it's "Americans" you have a problem with doesn't obfuscate this fact. There's no other way to put it.

JoeMorgue · 31st December 2018, 02:25 PM

"America gets to be racist because we're the only one with black people."

Stunning. Simply stunning.

And the irony is I have, in the past, taken issue with the way some extremely homogeneous countries make snarky remarks about how American has race problems. There is an air of... offness about a country that is 90+ percent one ethnic group looking its nose down on a multi-ethnic society having difficulty getting everyone to play nice. At times it does come across as "Dealing with minorities is easy if you don't actually have any to deal with."

The fact that the majority ethnicity in the US is only about 72% of the population while in Japan and some of the Nordic countries it's.... 100% with a rounding error pretty much is a legit factor in talking about why certain countries have racial problems and others don't.

Just don't excuse a thinly veiled racist agenda is all.

29th December 2018, 04:43 PM	#801
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by Baylor The people on the left of this bar graph are. https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png https://www.nationmaster.com/country...d-States/Crime The total homicide rate in Austria was only .5 per 100,000. So how could the firearms homicide rate be over 2?? That leads me to question the rest of your chart.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195

29th December 2018, 05:30 PM	#802
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 https://www.nationmaster.com/country...d-States/Crime The total homicide rate in Austria was only .5 per 100,000. So how could the firearms homicide rate be over 2?? That leads me to question the rest of your chart. I'm not sure what year they're using but we went over similar statistics in my thought-provoking thread "White Americans and Europeans murder at about the same rate."
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Last edited by Baylor; 29th December 2018 at 05:47 PM.

30th December 2018, 02:44 AM	#803
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by Baylor You've made your disdain for black people very clear. You are lying with that claim. Nothing in this thread shows disdain for any race. It shows disdain for the US police.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic Last edited by Nessie; 30th December 2018 at 02:46 AM.

30th December 2018, 03:24 AM	#804
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Nessie You are lying with that claim. Nothing in this thread shows disdain for any race. It shows disdain for the US police. Originally Posted by Nessie It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th December 2018, 03:53 AM	#805
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Nothing in that graph makes my comment racist. Fact is, the USA is very tolerant of its citizens and police shooting each other, a comment I base on the lack of positive action to reduce the number of shootings. Or are YOU now suggesting that there is a tolerance because it is more of a black and hispanic than a white problem?
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30th December 2018, 03:55 AM	#806
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse. Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ()) Per 100,000 of population. USA - 4.62 (11.96) Finland .32 (3.25) Austria .12 (2.9) France .21 (2.83) Canada .16 (2.05) Czech Rep .15 (2.01) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related.
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda Last edited by fagin; 30th December 2018 at 04:09 AM.

30th December 2018, 04:38 AM	#807
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,450	That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist.

30th December 2018, 05:02 AM	#808
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	Originally Posted by Matthew Best That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist. Originally Posted by fagin One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse. Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ()) Per 100,000 of population. USA - 4.62 (11.96) - Injuns. Finland .32 (3.25) - Vikings. Austria .12 (2.9) - Saxons. France .21 (2.83) - Gauls. Canada .16 (2.05) - Beavers. Czech Rep .15 (2.01) - probably foreigners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related. FTFY.
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30th December 2018, 05:25 AM	#809
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by Matthew Best That's great, but you haven't divided those figures up by race (of the victim? or the perpetrator? it's not clear). Therefore, by Baylor logic, you must be a racist. I wonder if Baylor is being racists for not dividing up the Finnish, French etc figures into race?
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30th December 2018, 07:32 AM	#810
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,920	It has also been pointed out that violence correlates with poverty.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

30th December 2018, 09:04 AM	#811
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by jimbob It has also been pointed out that violence correlates with poverty. The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence?
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30th December 2018, 09:26 AM	#812
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,920	Originally Posted by Nessie The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence? No, but Baylor's charts don't control for that well-known influence. Or for the effects of systematic and systemic discrimination which would promote crime.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

30th December 2018, 11:15 AM	#813
The Norseman Meandering fecklessly Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,424	Originally Posted by Nessie The poorer a police officer is, the more likely he/she will shoot an unarmed suspect and claim self defence? See, it's absurd statements like this that have made me drop out of even attempting to have a decent conversation in this thread. This isn't the only or the first, just the latest in a foolish string of statements.

30th December 2018, 12:54 PM	#814
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by The Norseman See, it's absurd statements like this that have made me drop out of even attempting to have a decent conversation in this thread. This isn't the only or the first, just the latest in a foolish string of statements. That was so absurd it must have obviously been for comic effect and a dig at another poster who makes ridiculous connections.
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30th December 2018, 04:41 PM	#815
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Nessie I wonder if Baylor is being racists for not dividing up the Finnish, French etc figures into race? Those countries don't categorize murders based on race.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th December 2018, 04:42 PM	#816
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Nessie Nothing in that graph makes my comment racist.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

31st December 2018, 03:10 AM	#817
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by Baylor Those countries don't categorize murders based on race. Are you sure about that? Can you produce their homicide statistics and show the race is not recorded? In any case, I am talking generally about Americans, who are made up of many different races, often mixed. So, when I say Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period, that is encompassing of all.
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31st December 2018, 03:11 AM	#818
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by Baylor https://i.imgur.com/liqOm2d.png What is my problem with that? What has that got to do with my comment on how tolerant Americans are with shooting each other?
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31st December 2018, 03:26 AM	#819
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	Originally Posted by Baylor Originally Posted by fagin One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse. Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ()) Per 100,000 of population. USA - 4.62 (11.96) Finland .32 (3.25) Austria .12 (2.9) France .21 (2.83) Canada .16 (2.05) Czech Rep .15 (2.01) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related. The problem is your picture doesn't relate to reality. Looks like made up bollocks. Could you link to source.
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31st December 2018, 03:29 AM	#820
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	It is also not clear what it has to do with the thread topic.
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31st December 2018, 03:34 AM	#821
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,823	Originally Posted by Baylor https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png This chart tells me that, like almost everything else Americans hold in high esteem, black guys are better at it than white guys. Must be a real sore point for racists.
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31st December 2018, 03:49 AM	#822
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,920	Originally Posted by fagin Originally Posted by Baylor Originally Posted by fagin One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse. Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ()) Per 100,000 of population. USA - 4.62 (11.96) Finland .32 (3.25) Austria .12 (2.9) France .21 (2.83) Canada .16 (2.05) Czech Rep .15 (2.01) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related. The problem is your picture doesn't relate to reality. Looks like made up bollocks. Could you link to source. In answer to your guess about firearm homicide rate as a proportion of all US homicides, I have a graph of that from 2013, which supports your contention - I make it about 70% US homicides use firearms of some sort. The raw numbers are below: And this is my point about poverty affecting homicide rates:
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending Last edited by jimbob; 31st December 2018 at 03:52 AM.

31st December 2018, 08:37 AM	#823
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by fagin One again you post a random picture. Which you appear to have pulled out of your arse. Can't be bothered to do a proper search, but according to wiki, homicide rates with a firearm for those countries is: (total homicide rates in ()) Per 100,000 of population. USA - 4.62 (11.96) Finland .32 (3.25) Austria .12 (2.9) France .21 (2.83) Canada .16 (2.05) Czech Rep .15 (2.01) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate Which look slightly more realistic. Interesting that the US nor only has a fairly high murder rate, but also a significant proportion of those are firearm related. Where are you getting those total homicide rate numbers from? They all appear to be very high. Ie I'm seeing from Finlands own official report 73 murders/manslaughters in 2017. Which is a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 not 3.25 given their estimated population of 5.5 million. https://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suolu...usolot_en.html ETA: oh I see. 3.25 is not their total homicide rate its the total rate of firearms deaths including accidents and suicides. Its 11.96 in the USA. ETA2: ahh and now I see how Nessie's chart is misleading. The other countries are listing the total firearms death rates including suicides and accidents (look at the numbers they match up almost perfectly to wiki). However, the US white rate is definitely not including suicides, because the suicide rate for white males by firearm is some 14 per 100,000. Even if women never killed themselves with firearms that would still be 7 per 100,000. , "the researchers found that white men had nine more firearm suicides per 100,000 people annually nationwide (5.41 for black men vs. 14.34 for white men)." https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/healt...udy/index.html ETA3: FYI that article does at times specify non-hispanic white.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Last edited by lobosrul5; 31st December 2018 at 08:53 AM.

31st December 2018, 08:45 AM	#824
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	The link below the numbers. First one I hit, which is why I said I can't be bothered to do a proper search in my post. The Finland figure is apparently 2013. I did look at a few more sites, which all seemed to be at least an order of magnitude lower than Baylor's picture, so really just want him to link to his source, as his whole graph seems to be bollocks, as your figure shows.
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31st December 2018, 08:50 AM	#825
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,581	Originally Posted by Nessie It is also not clear what it has to do with the thread topic. "Racism is okay because blacks are bad because reasons."
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31st December 2018, 08:58 AM	#826
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by fagin The link below the numbers. First one I hit, which is why I said I can't be bothered to do a proper search in my post. The Finland figure is apparently 2013. I did look at a few more sites, which all seemed to be at least an order of magnitude lower than Baylor's picture, so really just want him to link to his source, as his whole graph seems to be bollocks, as your figure shows. I may have added my "ETA's" after your reply. Your large number is the total number of people killed with firearms rate (it includes suicides), not the total homicide rate. I mean Austria's homicide rate has been under 1 for decades for example. Baylor's chart is probably from a right wing source because they are using that number for other countries, while only including homicides for white American's.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Last edited by lobosrul5; 31st December 2018 at 09:01 AM.

31st December 2018, 09:29 AM	#827
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,305	Originally Posted by Baylor This doesn't seem to be the case. Had Bill Clinton's wife won the presidential election, she would have appointed two (three including Ginsburg's inevitable demise) activist justices who would have overturned DC v. Heller and would have adopted a "collectivist rights theory" interpretation of the second amendment. You do realize that only one president in US history has gone on record as saying “take the guns now and then worry about due process.”
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,305	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

31st December 2018, 09:36 AM	#828
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by autumn1971 You do realize that only one president in US history has gone on record as saying “take the guns now and then worry about due process.” I mean that only lasted like half a day until he flipped the TV on to see what Fox & Friends had to say about it.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195

31st December 2018, 09:52 AM	#829
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,305	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 I mean that only lasted like half a day until he flipped the TV on to see what Fox & Friends had to say about it. Still boggles the mind that American Corporatists (don’t want to make them all triggered by simplifying that to Fascist) support the person who has suggested total government control, without any judge or doctor being involved, of a person’s right to own a gun. Has any “liberal” ever even suggested such a thing?
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,305	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

31st December 2018, 11:28 AM	#830
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by autumn1971 Still boggles the mind that American Corporatists (don’t want to make them all triggered by simplifying that to Fascist) support the person who has suggested total government control, without any judge or doctor being involved, of a person’s right to own a gun. Has any “liberal” ever even suggested such a thing? Anyone that suggests that personal rights be summarily dismissed for expediency without due process, is by definition not a liberal, they are an authoritarian. Has anyone on the "left" in the US ever said something like "gun rights need to be ended, I don't care what it says in the Constitution". Yeah probably. A president or serious presidential candidate? No probably not.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Last edited by lobosrul5; 31st December 2018 at 11:42 AM.

31st December 2018, 12:52 PM	#831
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,228	Here's a case of "the behavior of US police officers." A young woman had her car break down on the highway and left it there. It had been noticed by a LEO, who tagged it to let everyone know they knew it was there. The woman's father (reportedly) called the police to let them know he was on his way to take care of it, so went out to the car with his repair tools. He was working on the car, with the back hatch open and (in my understanding) was working underneath it. State police showed up. Oh, did I mention that the guy working on the car wears a holster with a handgun in it? He does. The state policeman saw it, and, believing he was a robber looting the car, says he yelled some commands at the guy. Then, he says, the guy reached for his weapon, so the LEO shot him dead. No video. This isn't a case of LWB, because it was a white guy. It's a case of the system we have. You want to carry a weapon, it comes with a risk. We don't have enough information here to know who is to blame, but it doesn't matter. When you have a gun culture like we have, mistakes are going to happen, and when they do, people die. This is the cost of freedom. Good guys with a gun? Responsible gun owners? There are some that are going to die. They are sacrificed.
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31st December 2018, 01:12 PM	#832
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,195	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Here's a case of "the behavior of US police officers." A young woman had her car break down on the highway and left it there. It had been noticed by a LEO, who tagged it to let everyone know they knew it was there. The woman's father (reportedly) called the police to let them know he was on his way to take care of it, so went out to the car with his repair tools. He was working on the car, with the back hatch open and (in my understanding) was working underneath it. State police showed up. Oh, did I mention that the guy working on the car wears a holster with a handgun in it? He does. The state policeman saw it, and, believing he was a robber looting the car, says he yelled some commands at the guy. Then, he says, the guy reached for his weapon, so the LEO shot him dead. No video. This isn't a case of LWB, because it was a white guy. It's a case of the system we have. You want to carry a weapon, it comes with a risk. We don't have enough information here to know who is to blame, but it doesn't matter. When you have a gun culture like we have, mistakes are going to happen, and when they do, people die. This is the cost of freedom. Good guys with a gun? Responsible gun owners? There are some that are going to die. They are sacrificed. We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone seen with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy.
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31st December 2018, 01:25 PM	#833
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,120	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone seen with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy. Very well put.
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31st December 2018, 01:29 PM	#834
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,920	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 We live in a society where its OK in many many areas to openly carry a gun. And we live in a society where its OK for police to shoot anyone ~~seen~~they think might be with a gun without having to give a seconds thought as to context. Its a bizarre dichotomy. Minor correction
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31st December 2018, 02:09 PM	#835
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Nessie So, when I say Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period, that is encompassing of all. You continue to show off your naivete. It's not possible to generalize a multi-racial society like the United States the way you try. This also ignores the "positive action" that you claim doesn't exist, like Black Lives Matter. People who live in all white countries like Scotland have a very childlike view on race.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Last edited by Baylor; 31st December 2018 at 02:19 PM.