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Tags Grace Millane , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 25th November 2019, 02:46 PM   #361
Samson
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What was this man's actual cause of death? I don't think I saw it in that news report.
Strangely there is little available by google search so I have to go by memory and later accounts by Chignall. He died because he essentially was hanged, misadventure. Chignal and Walker went for coffee and cigarettes in a classic breach of occupational health and safety.
Of course it was much more fun for everyone if he was alive and cast over the Huka Falls, and a terrible joke surfaced "How much will this cost me?"

In fact the crown contended they found a minute particle in his lungs showing he breathed in. In my opinion this is like the double dna LCN knife in Knox, or the brain on shirt in Lundy, or foetal blood in Lindy Chamberlain, or the nonsense analysis in the Bamber silencer.

ETA I hope this might illuminate how NZ treats cases like Millane, added to try to demonstrate we are on topic.

Last edited by Samson; 25th November 2019 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 25th November 2019, 04:24 PM   #362
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This may not be strictly logical, but the more I hear about this charmer the more I feel that an appropriate verdict would be "guilty due to body of work".
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Old 25th November 2019, 04:32 PM   #363
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Caution photos are disturbing.

Not peer reviewed but certainly photos of ligature strangulation are real.

I think that it's clear a ligature was not used on Grace. The lack of bruising more than likely could indicate 2 hands were not used to apply pressure - but more info required. If a single hand was used to strangle (a possibility) we would expect bruising from the thumb pressure.


https://forum.deathaddict.co/threads...ulation.35522/
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:00 PM   #364
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Some further observations:

1) Carotid sinus instantaneous death in humans is a controversial topic and one which has never (to date) been reliably demonstrated to be true.

2) Even if true, the mechanism for death in this sort of manner would have nothing to do with the starvation of oxygenated blood to the brain - rather, the cause of death would be cardiac arrest. And I'd contend that in most cases, a forensic autopsy would be able to determine the difference.

3) Even if this case did involve carotid sinus instantaneous death (and there's no reliable evidence that such a manner of human death even exists in any event), we're still stuck with the problems around this man's claimed story. Remember, he claimed to have wandered off to have a shower once their sexual activity had concluded. and then only chanced upon Millane's dead body some time later. But IF Millane really had died more-or-less instantaneously from carotid sinus stimulation, then we're supposed to believe that the following sequence of events unfolded: 1) the man put his hand(s) to the conscious-and-consenting Millane's neck and started to choke her; 2) Millane died almost instantaneously (and by definition of course, she fell limp, unresponsive, uncommunicative, eyes-closed, and NOT BREATHING); 3) the man somehow a) didn't observe that this had even happened, b) decided (unilaterally of course) that the sexual activity had finished; c) removed his choke hold from Millane's neck; and d) got up and walked to the shower, without a shred of concern that Millane had not moved, communicated, opened her eyes or even breathed* while he was removing his choke grip and walking away. Not credible, IMO. If however the man had claimed that he started choking Millane, realised quickly that she'd gone limp and stopped breathing, and then went in to a panic etc, then his story would have carried more credibility. But that was not his story. QED (once again).....

3) The matter of whether a ligature or a hand was used for constriction is only of minor relevance. One difference is that the use of a ligature looped around the entire neck would necessarily include constriction of the trachea (windpipe) which would obviously have a consequent effect upon breathing - whereas it's possible (and in fact desirable where erotic asphyxiation is concerned) for a choke grip to constrict one or both of the carotid arteries without putting any pressure onto the trachea. Nevertheless, in many instances of erotic asphyxiation, especially auto-erotic-asphyxiation, ligatures are the means employed (for obvious reasons in the case of auto-erotic-asphyxiation....).

4) Even though certain other details that were not included in this man's trial have now been revealed, and even though these new details only tend to paint this man in an extremely poor light, it's important to remember that the Millane case should only be considered with respect to evidence actually admitted into the trial (that is of cpirse to say the judicial/legal case against him, rather than any debate about his factual guilt). But in any event, I'd very strongly argue that, based only on the evidence introduced into the trial, there's sufficient reason to find for murder BARD.


* If a man is in such proximity to, and in such intimate contact with, a woman (which must be the case if he's choking her...), then I'd argue that it would be near-impossible for such a man NOT to notice that the woman has stopped breathing.


ETA: It's certainly possible to determine death by a long constriction of the carotid artery (or arteries), because the manner of death is cumulative brain death. And it's possible to observe this at autopsy because widespread apoptosis (cell death) would have taken place throughout the brain. So the presence of such evidence would effectively prove the cause of death as apoxic brain death, via extended choking. Only in the absence of such evidence could one even begin to consider things such as sudden death through any mechanism.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 25th November 2019 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:12 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Strangely there is little available by google search so I have to go by memory and later accounts by Chignall. He died because he essentially was hanged, misadventure.

Is that based on actual autopsy evidence? I'd doubt it. Because there are actually lots of ways in which one can die by "hanging". Chief among them are a broken neck, anoxic brain death (starvation of oxygen to the brain) due to compression of the carotid arteries, and asphyxia due to constriction of the trachea (windpipe) and consequent interruption to breathing. But there are others as well.

But there are plenty of other ways in which someone being "treated" in a BDSM "torture chamber" can die. I'd suggest that for a man of this Plumley Walker's age, cardiac arrest (but, NB, not cardiac arrest by means of carotid sinus stimulation) is a very strong candidate, for example.

So it would be useful to have a reliable medical source as to Plumley Walker's precise cause of death. Even notwithstanding that, there are also plenty of differences between this man's case and the Millane case.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:55 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Is that based on actual autopsy evidence? I'd doubt it. Because there are actually lots of ways in which one can die by "hanging". Chief among them are a broken neck, anoxic brain death (starvation of oxygen to the brain) due to compression of the carotid arteries, and asphyxia due to constriction of the trachea (windpipe) and consequent interruption to breathing. But there are others as well.

But there are plenty of other ways in which someone being "treated" in a BDSM "torture chamber" can die. I'd suggest that for a man of this Plumley Walker's age, cardiac arrest (but, NB, not cardiac arrest by means of carotid sinus stimulation) is a very strong candidate, for example.

So it would be useful to have a reliable medical source as to Plumley Walker's precise cause of death. Even notwithstanding that, there are also plenty of differences between this man's case and the Millane case.
Yes the key similarities if my understanding is correct is death by asphyxiation and "panic" concealing of body not expected to be on hand to have to deal with. Of course if Moore was prosecuting honestly there would be evidence only of death by drowning.
Millane convicted says he pressed the 111 keys but did not follow through. I doubt there are key stroke records on his phone, but if he could prove he did as claimed I would see it as exculpatory.

Last edited by Samson; 25th November 2019 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 25th November 2019, 06:05 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Yes the key similarities if my understanding is correct is death by asphyxiation and "panic" concealing of body not expected to be on hand to have to deal with. Of course if Moore was prosecuting honestly there would be evidence only of death by drowning.

Well, all the same, it would be better to have primary-source evidence for his manner of death.




Quote:
Millane convicted says he pressed the 111 keys but did not follow through. I doubt there are key stroke records on his phone, but if he could prove he did as claimed I would see it as exculpatory.


There would indeed be no record of that upon his phone. Which means that it exists only as an unverifiable and unfalsifiable claim of his. I'm heavily incline to disregard it, for what should be obvious reasons.

And even if this DID happen, how does that sit alongside going on another Tinder date the very following evening, while Millane's dead body was lying in his hotel room....?
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:05 PM   #368
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For something that doesn't happen (stopping blood to the brain by pressure on the carotid sinus) there is sure a lot of info on it. I think cardiac arrest stops blood.

Interrupting blood supply to the brain.

Feel for the pulse point low on your neck and don't press too hard. You can interrupt blood supply to the brain by applying pressure too high on the carotid artery. Pressing too hard may cause an irregular heartbeat.

Carotid sinus reflex death
Carotid sinus reflex death is a potential etiology[8] of sudden death in which manual stimulation of the carotid sinus allegedly causes strong glossopharyngeal nerve (Vagus nerve is for aortic arch baroreceptors) impulses leading to terminal cardiac arrest. Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation, hanging and autoerotic strangulation, but such deductions remain controversial. However, medical literature is replete with studies examining the use of carotid sinus massage as a diagnostic and therapeutic examination tool. In studies of thousands of uses on elderly patients, there were no complications of death or bradycardic events requiring treatment or resuscitation, even though this age group is more likely to be symptomatic from carotid sinus stimulation.[8] A carotid massage can also possibly dislodge a thrombus, or some plaque. This could lead to any number of life-threatening effects, including stroke.[9]
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:08 PM   #369
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OK, that's all very good, but the question I asked some time ago is still: would that show up in an autopsy?

In other words, would the cause of death be the same for manual strangulation and carotid sinus reflex?
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:12 PM   #370
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In martial arts and self defense
Stimulation of the carotid sinus via a slap or a strike, to induce (usually temporary, but sometimes lethal) loss of consciousness is a theatrical self-defense technique, and is often taught in martial arts such as karate.[
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:15 PM   #371
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Published paper on something that doesn't happen.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537223/
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:30 PM   #372
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Maybe she died of a heart attack!

That's also something that happens.
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Old 25th November 2019, 08:10 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
For something that doesn't happen (stopping blood to the brain by pressure on the carotid sinus) there is sure a lot of info on it. I think cardiac arrest stops blood.

Interrupting blood supply to the brain.

Feel for the pulse point low on your neck and don't press too hard. You can interrupt blood supply to the brain by applying pressure too high on the carotid artery. Pressing too hard may cause an irregular heartbeat.

Carotid sinus reflex death
Carotid sinus reflex death is a potential etiology[8] of sudden death in which manual stimulation of the carotid sinus allegedly causes strong glossopharyngeal nerve (Vagus nerve is for aortic arch baroreceptors) impulses leading to terminal cardiac arrest. Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation, hanging and autoerotic strangulation, but such deductions remain controversial. However, medical literature is replete with studies examining the use of carotid sinus massage as a diagnostic and therapeutic examination tool. In studies of thousands of uses on elderly patients, there were no complications of death or bradycardic events requiring treatment or resuscitation, even though this age group is more likely to be symptomatic from carotid sinus stimulation.[8] A carotid massage can also possibly dislodge a thrombus, or some plaque. This could lead to any number of life-threatening effects, including stroke.[9]


NB


ETA: You're also apparently conflating the concept of "stopping/interrupting the passage of blood to the brain" with "causing near-instantaneous death". I ought to make you aware that the two are very different.

If you think that anyone here is attempting to argue that choking pressure on the neck is NOT highly likely to stop (or at least constrict) the passage of blood to the brain.... then I really do suggest you go back and read the last few pages of the thread more carefully.

But that's a completely different concept - and completely different mechanism of death - from this alleged (but medically unproven) phenomenon of sudden death via stimulation of the carotid sinus (oh and you also appear to be unaware that "carotid sinus" and "carotid artery" are different things).

And when it comes to the timings and efforts required, causing someone's death by pressing on one or both carotid arteries (and thereby restricting the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain) takes a comparatively long time of continuous choking (at least 45 seconds and perhaps as long as 3 minutes or even more), when compared with this alleged (and medically unproven) phenomenon of instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation, which obviously would only necessitate a few seconds' choking.


And obviously any death will ultimately stop the passage of oxygenated blood to the brain (on account of the fact that the heart will have stopped pumping oxygenated blood).

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Old 25th November 2019, 08:14 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Published paper on something that doesn't happen.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537223/


You do know, don't you (well, actually you obviously don't) that this paper in no way whatsoever even addresses - far less endorses - the idea of instantaneous (or near-instantaneous) death due to carotid sinus stimulation?

Did you perhaps pick the first academic paper that even dealt with carotid sinus stimulation and link to it without even bothering to read it first?
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Old 25th November 2019, 11:03 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well, all the same, it would be better to have primary-source evidence for his manner of death.








There would indeed be no record of that upon his phone. Which means that it exists only as an unverifiable and unfalsifiable claim of his. I'm heavily incline to disregard it, for what should be obvious reasons.

And even if this DID happen, how does that sit alongside going on another Tinder date the very following evening, while Millane's dead body was lying in his hotel room....?
As defender....
By this time he was in full Coen brothers film script mode.
He was fully aware that he had failed to follow through the emergency call, and his fate was in the hands of the state. It is not entirely surprising he tried to vanish the deceased, after all, why die wondering?
But the tinder date was his last gasp at a lifestyle that had worked far beyond use by date, the landlord was circling, everything was looking south of the south pole.
He knew he was going down for twenty years I surmise.
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Old 25th November 2019, 11:31 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Yes the key similarities if my understanding is correct is death by asphyxiation and "panic" concealing of body not expected to be on hand to have to deal with. Of course if Moore was prosecuting honestly there would be evidence only of death by drowning.
Millane convicted says he pressed the 111 keys but did not follow through. I doubt there are key stroke records on his phone, but if he could prove he did as claimed I would see it as exculpatory.
If he went far enough for someone to answer there would be a record.

If it is like the time I accidentally rang 911 in London the call doesn't even finish if you hang up.



By "follow through" I think we are talking he didn't.
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:41 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
OK, that's all very good, but the question I asked some time ago is still: would that show up in an autopsy?

In other words, would the cause of death be the same for manual strangulation and carotid sinus reflex?
"Petechiae will not develop when there is enough force to obstruct carotid artery flow."
Just happened to find this earlier and lost the link when taking notes, no doubt will find again when I narrow down the search. Petechiae does form by manual strangling. I don't think either forensic pathologist was able to determine there had been manual strangling but were asked the maximum time and so there began the mantra. 1/3 rd of all strangling victims have a fractured hyoid bone, also pathologists look for cartilage fracture - apparently Grace had neither.

If there was evidence of strangling I'd more likely be out of here because of the behavior later. I think it's fair to say both are needed - but the strangling foremost - not neck pressure.
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:54 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You do know, don't you (well, actually you obviously don't) that this paper in no way whatsoever even addresses - far less endorses - the idea of instantaneous (or near-instantaneous) death due to carotid sinus stimulation?

Did you perhaps pick the first academic paper that even dealt with carotid sinus stimulation and link to it without even bothering to read it first?
From the paper with an explanation following as to Syncope is. In this case from pressure from shaving.

Heart rate and blood pressure drop.

"To compensate for this, efferent signals to the nucleus solitarius will cause venous dilation, arterial dilation, decreased heart rate with increased atrioventricular node refractory period, and ultimately reduced blood pressure. This sudden decrease in blood pressure can cause syncope, which often presents in patients who have a history of syncope while shaving or buttoning their shirts, activities which cause increased pressure on the carotid artery.[6]"



'Syncope is a temporary loss of consciousness usually related to insufficient blood flow to the brain. It's also called fainting or "passing out." It most often occurs when blood pressure is too low (hypotension) and the heart doesn't pump enough oxygen to the brain.'
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:59 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Maybe she died of a heart attack!

That's also something that happens.
Don't know. Trying to get a copy of the Crown's pathologist's evidence re deterioration post-mortem. Someone has made claims about the condition of brain not indicating problems from blood and oxygen stoppage.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:48 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
From the paper with an explanation following as to Syncope is. In this case from pressure from shaving.

Heart rate and blood pressure drop.

"To compensate for this, efferent signals to the nucleus solitarius will cause venous dilation, arterial dilation, decreased heart rate with increased atrioventricular node refractory period, and ultimately reduced blood pressure. This sudden decrease in blood pressure can cause syncope, which often presents in patients who have a history of syncope while shaving or buttoning their shirts, activities which cause increased pressure on the carotid artery.[6]"



'Syncope is a temporary loss of consciousness usually related to insufficient blood flow to the brain. It's also called fainting or "passing out." It most often occurs when blood pressure is too low (hypotension) and the heart doesn't pump enough oxygen to the brain.'



But all of this is completely irrelevant to what you're actually trying to support: that there's such a thing as instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation.

We're not talking about a temporary loss of consciousness here. We're talking about instantaneous death. And the paper you're citing has nothing to say about that.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:04 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
"Petechiae will not develop when there is enough force to obstruct carotid artery flow."
Just happened to find this earlier and lost the link when taking notes, no doubt will find again when I narrow down the search. Petechiae does form by manual strangling. I don't think either forensic pathologist was able to determine there had been manual strangling but were asked the maximum time and so there began the mantra. 1/3 rd of all strangling victims have a fractured hyoid bone, also pathologists look for cartilage fracture - apparently Grace had neither.

If there was evidence of strangling I'd more likely be out of here because of the behavior later. I think it's fair to say both are needed - but the strangling foremost - not neck pressure.
Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:11 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......
But...
Could you suggest a motive for a man successfully doing serial tinder dates, a lifestyle at 27 admittedly somewhat under siege due to financial constraints, but operating with some predictability suddenly considering murdering a young woman as part and parcel of the lifestyle?

I will concede body of work to Rolfe, she is an anchor of rationality, but that is not a reason to find murder.
New Zealand is predictable, dumb, and totally lacking in a rational discourse on this tragedy.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:20 AM   #383
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I would add that the call is now seriously in New Zealand that the sexual history of the victim should be inadmissible.
A law change.
Well, evidence presented in court was that the victim had engaged in erotic asphyxiation practice where there was a protocol that she would tap three times to be released.
This law change would make Xi Peng look a moderate.
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Old 26th November 2019, 04:21 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
But...
Could you suggest a motive for a man successfully doing serial tinder dates, a lifestyle at 27 admittedly somewhat under siege due to financial constraints, but operating with some predictability suddenly considering murdering a young woman as part and parcel of the lifestyle?

I will concede body of work to Rolfe, she is an anchor of rationality, but that is not a reason to find murder.
New Zealand is predictable, dumb, and totally lacking in a rational discourse on this tragedy.


Once again.... motive is only peripherally important to a finding of guilt, and it's entirely unnecessary to even propose a motive in order to find for guilt.

This man was convicted of murder because the totality of the evidence convinced the court (and me and others in this thread) that he must have a) choked Millane for a considerable period of time after she fell unconscious; b) therefore intended to either seriously injure or kill Millane; and c) been the one who was responsible for Millane's death. And his actions in the immediate aftermath of her death and over the ensuing 24-36 hours simply are not compatible with a man who "panicked" and was worried that he'd "unfairly take the blame". Taken together, that adds up to a conviction for murder.
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Old 26th November 2019, 05:05 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But all of this is completely irrelevant to what you're actually trying to support: that there's such a thing as instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation.

We're not talking about a temporary loss of consciousness here. We're talking about instantaneous death. And the paper you're citing has nothing to say about that.
Surprised this has never happened in an MMA fight when a chokehold is applied...
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:52 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Surprised this has never happened in an MMA fight when a chokehold is applied...


That is a germane observation. And it's actually an excellent source of empirical evidence on this subject.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:19 AM   #387
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It is an interesting point. I don't know what sort of grip is involved in these chokeholds though.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:26 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is an interesting point. I don't know what sort of grip is involved in these chokeholds though.
They work by putting pressure on the carotid arteries, giving the opponent a choice of tapping out or passing out. Interesting study here.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/4/6...earch-explains
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:04 AM   #389
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Maybe she died of a heart attack!

That's also something that happens.
Er, ultimately we all die from heart cessation.
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:18 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, ultimately we all die from heart cessation.
Ultimately we all die from brain cessation. Sometimes this is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to heart cessation. Sometimes it is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to lung cessation. Sometimes brain cessation is caused directly at the brain, bypassing all the other organs.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:08 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......
Show the evidence from the pathologists. You're making it up.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:10 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is an interesting point. I don't know what sort of grip is involved in these chokeholds though.

We've already had details giving reasons why choke holds were outlawed by police - instant death.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:57 PM   #393
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I'll put the link up for this shortly, again it's something that couldn't happen according to some posters - death or instant death from carotid pressure (the reason why police abandoned choker holds.) It's recognized as having the potential of being fatal in karate from a single hold to the neck and is the reason mat fighters 'tap out'.) When considering terms like 'recovery' and so on it should be borne in mind that that at trial it was said 'recovery breathing' between applications of 'pressing' on the neck was shallow.



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Q and A: How Long Does It Take For Someone To Die From Carotid Artery Compression?
09
Jul
Q: How long does it take for someone to die if their carotid artery is compressed?
A: The two carotid arteries lie in the front of the neck on either side of the trachea (windpipe) and carry blood from the heart to the brain. They supply 90% or so of the brain’s blood, with the rest coming from the two small vertebral arteries that travel along the spine and over the back-most portion of the brain. The carotids are interconnected in the brain so that in a normal individual compressing a single carotid artery will have little effect. Compressing both can cause a loss of consciousness in 15 to 20 seconds and death in 2 to 4 minutes.
One general rule in medicine is that if the heart stops, the victim will lose consciousness in about 4 seconds if standing, 8 if sitting, and 12 if lying down. This simply reflects the effects of gravity on blood flow. These numbers would also mostly hold true if both carotids were suddenly pressed shut—not easy to do—see below. But, to the brain, the complete interruption of blood flow through carotids would look the same as it would if the heart had stopped. Either way, the brain would receive no blood supply, and the brain needs a continuous supply of blood to function and survive.
Another medical truism is that dizziness, loss of consciousness, and sudden death are simply gradations along the same scale. That is, what makes you dizzy can make you lose consciousness, and what makes you lose consciousness can cause death. One of the things that can do this is compression of the carotid arteries. Brief compression, can cause dizziness, longer compression can cause loss of consciousness, and even a longer period of compression can cause death.
A major variable in play here is how severely the arteries are compressed. If only partially collapsed, the victim might have no problems. Severe and almost complete compression can cause loss of consciousness and death in short order. And anywhere in between. Significant and potentially deadly compression can result from strangulation–either manual or ligature–hanging, or an aggressively applied choke hold.
So, depending upon the nature, force, and duration of the compression, your victim could have no symptoms, become dizzy, lose consciousness, or die. Or could progressively move from one of these to the next. The time required for death could be a couple of minutes or many minutes if the compression is less severe or intermittent. As the victim struggled, he could intermittently release the strangle or choke hold and this would prolong the ordeal.
All these variable means that you can have it almost anyway you want. The killer could overpower the victim, render him unconscious in 20 seconds, and kill him in 2 minutes. Or the struggle could go on for many, many minutes. It’s up to you.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:58 PM   #394
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https://writersforensicsblog.wordpre...y-compression/
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Old 26th November 2019, 02:37 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
I'll put the link up for this shortly, again it's something that couldn't happen according to some posters - death or instant death from carotid pressure (the reason why police abandoned choker holds.) It's recognized as having the potential of being fatal in karate from a single hold to the neck and is the reason mat fighters 'tap out'.) When considering terms like 'recovery' and so on it should be borne in mind that that at trial it was said 'recovery breathing' between applications of 'pressing' on the neck was shallow.



o Today
Foreign Accent Syndrome →
Q and A: How Long Does It Take For Someone To Die From Carotid Artery Compression?
09
Jul
Q: How long does it take for someone to die if their carotid artery is compressed?
A: The two carotid arteries lie in the front of the neck on either side of the trachea (windpipe) and carry blood from the heart to the brain. They supply 90% or so of the brain’s blood, with the rest coming from the two small vertebral arteries that travel along the spine and over the back-most portion of the brain. The carotids are interconnected in the brain so that in a normal individual compressing a single carotid artery will have little effect. Compressing both can cause a loss of consciousness in 15 to 20 seconds and death in 2 to 4 minutes.
One general rule in medicine is that if the heart stops, the victim will lose consciousness in about 4 seconds if standing, 8 if sitting, and 12 if lying down. This simply reflects the effects of gravity on blood flow. These numbers would also mostly hold true if both carotids were suddenly pressed shut—not easy to do—see below. But, to the brain, the complete interruption of blood flow through carotids would look the same as it would if the heart had stopped. Either way, the brain would receive no blood supply, and the brain needs a continuous supply of blood to function and survive.
Another medical truism is that dizziness, loss of consciousness, and sudden death are simply gradations along the same scale. That is, what makes you dizzy can make you lose consciousness, and what makes you lose consciousness can cause death. One of the things that can do this is compression of the carotid arteries. Brief compression, can cause dizziness, longer compression can cause loss of consciousness, and even a longer period of compression can cause death.
A major variable in play here is how severely the arteries are compressed. If only partially collapsed, the victim might have no problems. Severe and almost complete compression can cause loss of consciousness and death in short order. And anywhere in between. Significant and potentially deadly compression can result from strangulation–either manual or ligature–hanging, or an aggressively applied choke hold.
So, depending upon the nature, force, and duration of the compression, your victim could have no symptoms, become dizzy, lose consciousness, or die. Or could progressively move from one of these to the next. The time required for death could be a couple of minutes or many minutes if the compression is less severe or intermittent. As the victim struggled, he could intermittently release the strangle or choke hold and this would prolong the ordeal.
All these variable means that you can have it almost anyway you want. The killer could overpower the victim, render him unconscious in 20 seconds, and kill him in 2 minutes. Or the struggle could go on for many, many minutes. It’s up to you.
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:39 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ultimately we all die from brain cessation. Sometimes this is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to heart cessation. Sometimes it is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to lung cessation. Sometimes brain cessation is caused directly at the brain, bypassing all the other organs.
Be that as it may, medics will announce one's death as soon as there is no pulse (flatlined).

You can be brain dead yet can live a long time hooked up to a machine. Your death certificate will be based on when your heart seizes up.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:49 PM   #397
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So all these people whose heartbeat flatlined and they were then resuscitated are legally dead then? Along with all these people whose hearts were stopped so the open-heart surgery could be performed?
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:51 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.

The stuff Fixit quoted is about partial or complete compression of the carotid artery, not about the carotid sinus effect.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:58 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.


I'm finding it really strange how Fixit keeps posting new links claiming it proves his point, when it actually (if anything) does the complete opposite.

I hesitate to repeat wearily: there is simply no reliable medical evidence showing that instantaneous (or even near-instantaneous) death from carotid sinus stimulation can even occur.


(Oh and once again, that post of Fixit's shows him/her to be freely mixing-and-matching "death from carotid artery compression" and "death from carotid sinus stimulation". By this point, I actually don't think he understands the difference between the two)


ETA: And in another "you couldn't make it up" moment.... I've just realised that the passage quoted by Fixit was from a blog aimed at crime fiction writers!! The words "clutching at straws to try to shore up a position" comes strangely to mind

Last edited by LondonJohn; 26th November 2019 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 26th November 2019, 04:04 PM   #400
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Be that as it may, medics will announce one's death as soon as there is no pulse (flatlined).


Uhhh no they don't.



Quote:
You can be brain dead yet can live a long time hooked up to a machine.

No, no you can't. If you're brain dead (or, strictly speaking, dead at the brain stem), you're dead. You cannot live whatsoever, whether "hooked up to a machine" or not.



Quote:
Your death certificate will be based on when your heart seizes up.

Totally incorrect. Your death certificae will be based on when you are adjudged to have experienced brain stem death.

(You're really not aware of the fact that in most cardiac arrests, the heart stops beating (the clue is in the name "cardiac arrest"), yet cardiac massage and artificial operation of airways will often cause a resumption of heartbeat? Or, as you might put it, "bring the patient back to life"..........)
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