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Tags Grace Millane , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 26th November 2019, 04:21 PM   #401
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.


Oh and one more observation on this:

A critical factor in the assessment of intent (i.e. intent to seriously injure or kill) in this case is not merely the time needed for continuous compression of the carotid artery/arteries to cause death*, but - crucially - the amount of time that must have taken place between the man choking Millane into unconsciousness and him choking her to death.

Why? Because the man was claiming that this was purely an accident that happened during the commission of an erotic-asphyxiation sex game. Yet if it really had been nothing more than this, then IMO it's impossible to see how/why the man would have continued applying his choke hold to Millane's neck for such a considerable period of time after she fell unconscious. After all, in this sort of sex game, it's wholly obvious that as soon as the "chokee" falls unconscious, the choking has already gone too far. And at that point, or soon thereafter, the one doing the choking would release his/her choke hold to allow the person to regain consciousness.

What the one doing the choking would NOT do (IMO) is carry on choking a person who was patently limp, unresponsive, uncommunicative with their eyes closed, for an additional time period of something between 45 seconds and up to 3-4 minutes further. How could such an action possibly be compatible with a claim to be doing nothing more than performing erotic-asphyxiation choking on the person? And likewise, how could such an action be compatible with anything other than intent to seriously injure or kill the person? And if the latter (which I believe must be the case here), and if the person ends up dying at the hand of the choker, then the choker has committed murder.


* Which, as you point out, even this article puts at 2-4 minutes, in (ironically) a complete refutation of the very thing (i.e. instantaneous death) that Fixit was trying to support.....
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Old 26th November 2019, 04:57 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh and one more observation on this:

A critical factor in the assessment of intent (i.e. intent to seriously injure or kill) in this case is not merely the time needed for continuous compression of the carotid artery/arteries to cause death*, but - crucially - the amount of time that must have taken place between the man choking Millane into unconsciousness and him choking her to death.

Why? Because the man was claiming that this was purely an accident that happened during the commission of an erotic-asphyxiation sex game. Yet if it really had been nothing more than this, then IMO it's impossible to see how/why the man would have continued applying his choke hold to Millane's neck for such a considerable period of time after she fell unconscious. After all, in this sort of sex game, it's wholly obvious that as soon as the "chokee" falls unconscious, the choking has already gone too far. And at that point, or soon thereafter, the one doing the choking would release his/her choke hold to allow the person to regain consciousness.

What the one doing the choking would NOT do (IMO) is carry on choking a person who was patently limp, unresponsive, uncommunicative with their eyes closed, for an additional time period of something between 45 seconds and up to 3-4 minutes further. How could such an action possibly be compatible with a claim to be doing nothing more than performing erotic-asphyxiation choking on the person? And likewise, how could such an action be compatible with anything other than intent to seriously injure or kill the person? And if the latter (which I believe must be the case here), and if the person ends up dying at the hand of the choker, then the choker has committed murder.


* Which, as you point out, even this article puts at 2-4 minutes, in (ironically) a complete refutation of the very thing (i.e. instantaneous death) that Fixit was trying to support.....
What troubles me in this case is the clear lack of motive. I am fully aware the crown has vested itself with authority to deem motive irrelevant, but here we have several factors lining up that deny any motive.
1. Grace Millane's sexual history, and the justice minister has just declared this admissibility is not subject to any law change after the case.
2. The text she naively sent to a friend saying how well the date was going.
3. The large quantity of alcohol both consumed on empty stomachs.

Somehow the on thread verdict has become that we have a safe verdict of murder, yet the test is beyond all reasonable doubt. It is not close. IMO.

It is possible he knew she was dead before allegedly sleeping in the shower. It is also possible he photographed the deceased having decided he was going to move and conceal the body, as a precaution for a possible defence. One fortuitous matter is leading police to the body while it had a satisfactory state of preservation to allow an autopsy that lined up exactly with his statements in the arresting interview. He had a legitimate defence that nevertheless has the baying pack congratulating the jury on a swift verdict.

The only motive that makes plausible sense is that he got carried away with a dangerous act, but this is an assumption not legally allowed.

In summing up, Moore j said if the jury believes she consented to pressure on the neck they must acquit. What happened to that?
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Old 26th November 2019, 05:51 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
What troubles me in this case is the clear lack of motive. I am fully aware the crown has vested itself with authority to deem motive irrelevant, but here we have several factors lining up that deny any motive.
1. Grace Millane's sexual history, and the justice minister has just declared this admissibility is not subject to any law change after the case.
2. The text she naively sent to a friend saying how well the date was going.
3. The large quantity of alcohol both consumed on empty stomachs.

Somehow the on thread verdict has become that we have a safe verdict of murder, yet the test is beyond all reasonable doubt. It is not close. IMO.

It is possible he knew she was dead before allegedly sleeping in the shower. It is also possible he photographed the deceased having decided he was going to move and conceal the body, as a precaution for a possible defence. One fortuitous matter is leading police to the body while it had a satisfactory state of preservation to allow an autopsy that lined up exactly with his statements in the arresting interview. He had a legitimate defence that nevertheless has the baying pack congratulating the jury on a swift verdict.

The only motive that makes plausible sense is that he got carried away with a dangerous act, but this is an assumption not legally allowed.

In summing up, Moore j said if the jury believes she consented to pressure on the neck they must acquit. What happened to that?


You write that "the crown has vested itself with authority to deem motive irrelevant" - which seems to suggest you're arguing that the Crown is somehow pulling rank or skewing things unfairly in its own favour.

But there are extremely sound reasons why motive is not a necessary component of a guilty verdict. Sometimes the motive is pretty clear, and it does indeed feed into the narrative (for example: man comes home and finds his wife in bed with the gardener; man shoots garderner dead). But in many instances - including this case - it's near-impossible to search for a motive, because the motive is most likely locked within the deep psyche of the perpetrator.

Several pages ago in this thread, I did suggest a potential motive and driver for this man to have committed murder: I suggested that he may have become so aroused (not just sexually) by feelings of power and control once he was choking Millane, that some sort of "inner beast" took over and he felt compelled to continue choking her until all life had left her body.

Now, that may be wholly or partially accurate, or it may be entirely inaccurate. And it's nothing more than a hypothesis based on a fair (but not expert) understanding of human psychology. But I would have been totally shocked if this or any other hypothesis about motive had ever been raised in this trial. All that the crown had to prove was that the defendant must have had the intent to seriously injure or kill Millane. To that end, it's irrelevant to talk of perceived motive (or perceived lack of motive).

We will probably never know quite why this man did what he did. And it's actually far from unlikely that the man himself doesn't really know why he did what he did. But all that's important from a judicial/legal point of view is that it is proven BARD that he DID do what he did, and that he intended to do so.
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:11 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
In summing up, Moore j said if the jury believes she consented to pressure on the neck they must acquit. What happened to that?
I don't know. Did that actually happen? If so, it's the first I've heard of it, and it sounds extremely unlikely. Please provide the full quote from the judge.
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:36 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't know. Did that actually happen? If so, it's the first I've heard of it, and it sounds extremely unlikely. Please provide the full quote from the judge.


That sounds wildly improbable. For the simple reason that yes, she may have consented to pressure on the neck within the confines of erotic asphyxiation (which is to say she consented to being choked up to the point where she passed out, and by extension would have implicitly consented to being rendered unconscious if things went a bit too far, with the obvious proviso that he would then release his choke hold in order for her to regain consciousness).....

.....but that was as far as her consent (and implicit consent) went. It would be inconceivable - and actually contrary to laws around consent - that she would have "consented" to having the choke hold continued long after she lost consciousness, to the point where she died.

There are pretty clear and obvious boundaries for consent when it comes to this sort of activity. And it's perfectly feasible (and possible in this case, assuming that Millane consented to anything at all) for someone to consent to being taken to that boundary - unconsciousness - but no further.

I'll be absolutely astonished if the trial judge gave that instruction to the jurors in this case.
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:42 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't know. Did that actually happen? If so, it's the first I've heard of it, and it sounds extremely unlikely. Please provide the full quote from the judge.
In black and white, not shades of grey, here it is.

Justice Moore said if the jury believed Millane consented to the accused applying force to her neck - they must acquit the accused on both murder and manslaughter.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12287384
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:53 PM   #407
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That summing up is a bit confused to my eyes, and the judge seems to be saying conflicting things, in that he also says this:

"Consent can be revoked at any time … by words and actions," he said.

"And if someone goes beyond what they consented to - they no longer consent."

He said alcohol was an issue in the realm of consent relating to Millane's death.

"A person does not consent if they were so drunk that they cannot and do not consent," he said.

"Finally ... and significantly, no person can give consent if they are unconscious, for any reason, whatsoever."

He said that meant while Millane was unconscious she was no longer giving consent to anything she had allowed or agreed for the accused to do.
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:56 PM   #408
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Then he also says this:

If they found him guilty of murder, they were to go no further.

"Only if you do not, do you go on to consider manslaughter, the culpable homicide," he explained.

Only then would the issue of consent come in.

"Consent is not a defence to murder," said the judge.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:50 PM   #409
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And remember, this source is actually nothing more a real-time stream of newspaper reporting. The reporter was sitting in the courtroom, relaying proceedings as they happened. There's clearly room for a certain amout of error in this sort of process,

What this source is NOT is a reliable transcript. And I think that's a very important thing to consider. I'd like to see primary-source transcripts of the judge's instructions. As you say, Matthew, the way the judge's words have been reported in this news article appears contradictory and confusing.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:59 PM   #410
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And by the way, further down that livestream newspaper report (which equates to an earlier point in the judge's instructions), the following instructions from the judge are reported:

He (Justice Moore) said the concept of motive was important - and jurors must not confuse it with intention.

"Motive is the reason or emotion that may have prompted a particular act … the Crown doesn't have to prove motive.

"Intention is what result the person intended to bring about - not why they intended to do it."

Justice Moore then spent time explaining the intricacies of murderous intent as described by the Crimes Act.

He said the intentional killing of another person, by law, was murder.

Justice Moore said murderous intent was when a defendant means to cause bodily injury that is known to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not.

He said the jury had to be 100 per cent sure that the accused had murderous intent when he put his hands on Millane's neck.

"Are you sure that when he applied pressure to Miss Millane's neck … did he intend to cause injury?" he posed.

"If you answer is yes, then you would find [the accused] guilty of murder."

He said if the jury did not believe he intended to cause harm to Millane, he was not guilty of the charge of murder.

Again, they had to be sure beyond reasonable doubt.

"Are you sure when he applied pressure to Miss Millane's neck [he] ran the risk of Miss Millane dying … he nevertheless continued.

"If yes, then [the accused] is guilty of murder.

"In other words [he] must have appreciated Miss Millane's death was a likely consequence … but was willing to run that risk."
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:39 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And remember, this source is actually nothing more a real-time stream of newspaper reporting. The reporter was sitting in the courtroom, relaying proceedings as they happened. There's clearly room for a certain amout of error in this sort of process,

What this source is NOT is a reliable transcript. And I think that's a very important thing to consider. I'd like to see primary-source transcripts of the judge's instructions. As you say, Matthew, the way the judge's words have been reported in this news article appears contradictory and confusing.
Yes to all that, and I rang the high court. Transcripts are not automatically available, a reason must be given. I suspect the summings up are more likely to be procurable.

The email address for inquiry is

aucklandhc@justice.govt.nz
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:48 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'm finding it really strange how Fixit keeps posting new links claiming it proves his point, when it actually (if anything) does the complete opposite.

I hesitate to repeat wearily: there is simply no reliable medical evidence showing that instantaneous (or even near-instantaneous) death from carotid sinus stimulation can even occur.


(Oh and once again, that post of Fixit's shows him/her to be freely mixing-and-matching "death from carotid artery compression" and "death from carotid sinus stimulation". By this point, I actually don't think he understands the difference between the two)


ETA: And in another "you couldn't make it up" moment.... I've just realised that the passage quoted by Fixit was from a blog aimed at crime fiction writers!! The words "clutching at straws to try to shore up a position" comes strangely to mind
Just to help from earlier on. And sorry if you aren't agile enough to move from instant death from manual carotid pressure, a strike, a neck lock,
or collapse from pressure to the carotid when shaving. Most people would see the link to the overall sensitivity of the carotid, but not you obviously.

Bernard Knight: Lawyers Guide to Forensic Medicine pg 214

'Carotid Sinus'

'This is a common source of death in pressure on the neck, especially in manual strangulation, and can occur INSTANTLY when the neck is gripped.'


'In martial arts and self defense
Stimulation of the carotid sinus via a slap or a strike, to induce (usually temporary, but sometimes lethal) loss of consciousness is a theatrical self-defense technique, and is often taught in martial arts such as karate."
My experience with that was a single hand grip to both sides of the carotid sinus

Even in shaving for the elderly can cause a collapse:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537223/

"This sudden decrease in blood pressure can cause syncope, which often presents in patients who have a history of syncope while shaving or buttoning their shirts, activities which cause increased pressure on the carotid artery."

Like the above the 1933 paper on carotid compression has also been placed here earlier where neck holds were banned for law enforcement officials after instant death experiences in subduing suspects.

Don't hesitate to repeat anything 'wearily' because it's clear you can't help yourself and that it is something you love to do.

Just a reminder which I'm sure you don't want. Get anywhere with the vulnerability of a person shallow breathing having pressure applied to their necks? Or indeed why there was internal bruising only on side of Grace's neck. I won't bother you with a third one as you've been stuck on these 2 for days.

No need to write another book, yes or no will do.
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:51 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And remember, this source is actually nothing more a real-time stream of newspaper reporting. The reporter was sitting in the courtroom, relaying proceedings as they happened. There's clearly room for a certain amout of error in this sort of process,

What this source is NOT is a reliable transcript. And I think that's a very important thing to consider. I'd like to see primary-source transcripts of the judge's instructions. As you say, Matthew, the way the judge's words have been reported in this news article appears contradictory and confusing.
Old saying comes to mind - 'more reverse gears than an Italian tank.' Well done.
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Old 27th November 2019, 03:20 AM   #414
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This case is sure to travel a scenic route. There is a lot to consider in the summing up, it is clearly deeply flawed. There are circular arguments to make one giddy.
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Old 27th November 2019, 03:38 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Just to help from earlier on. And sorry if you aren't agile enough to move from instant death from manual carotid pressure, a strike, a neck lock,
or collapse from pressure to the carotid when shaving. Most people would see the link to the overall sensitivity of the carotid, but not you obviously.

Firstly, the very fact that you keep referring here to "the carotid" just goes to show that you still don't know/understand the difference between the carotid artery and the carotid sinus. They are different parts of the anatomy. Did you not know that?

Secondly, you're still playing fast and loose with trying to claim that temporary loss of consciousness (i.e. fainting) from carotid sinus stimulation is somehow the same as instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation. Why are you continuing to do this? Is it a conscious attempt to deceive?



Quote:
Bernard Knight: Lawyers Guide to Forensic Medicine pg 214

'Carotid Sinus'

'This is a common source of death in pressure on the neck, especially in manual strangulation, and can occur INSTANTLY when the neck is gripped.'


'In martial arts and self defense
Stimulation of the carotid sinus via a slap or a strike, to induce (usually temporary, but sometimes lethal) loss of consciousness is a theatrical self-defense technique, and is often taught in martial arts such as karate."
My experience with that was a single hand grip to both sides of the carotid sinus


Link please. Or it didn't happen.




Quote:
Even in shaving for the elderly can cause a collapse:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537223/

"This sudden decrease in blood pressure can cause syncope, which often presents in patients who have a history of syncope while shaving or buttoning their shirts, activities which cause increased pressure on the carotid artery."


Do you even know what syncope is? It seems likely that you don't (or that you do, but that you're attempting a willful deception. Because "syncope" does not mean "instantaneous death".



Quote:
Like the above the 1933 paper on carotid compression has also been placed here earlier where neck holds were banned for law enforcement officials after instant death experiences in subduing suspects.

Don't hesitate to repeat anything 'wearily' because it's clear you can't help yourself and that it is something you love to do.


What?




Quote:
Just a reminder which I'm sure you don't want. Get anywhere with the vulnerability of a person shallow breathing having pressure applied to their necks? Or indeed why there was internal bruising only on side of Grace's neck. I won't bother you with a third one as you've been stuck on these 2 for days.

No need to write another book, yes or no will do.


"Shallow breathing" has nothing whatsoever to do with the mechanisms of death from compression of the carotid artery/arteries. If you don't know that, I suggest more/better research.

And I've addressed this "bruising on one side" thing twice now. Go back and read my posts properly, cos I sure can't be bothered to write it out again.
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Old 27th November 2019, 03:43 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This case is sure to travel a scenic route. There is a lot to consider in the summing up, it is clearly deeply flawed. There are circular arguments to make one giddy.


But remember that this opinion is purely based on a real-time courtroom report of the judge's instructions. Not the verbatim instructions themselves. So I'd hold back until/unless a complete and accurate version is produced.

And in any case, my opinion is that this is a safe conviction based on the totality of the evidence.

A further thing to remember is that even if the judge's words were reported accurately, this would only tend to work in favour of the man's defence. In post-conviction appeals, the only real grounds for appeal in this area are where the judge has given improper jury instructions in a manner which favours the prosecution......
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Old 27th November 2019, 03:58 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But remember that this opinion is purely based on a real-time courtroom report of the judge's instructions. Not the verbatim instructions themselves. So I'd hold back until/unless a complete and accurate version is produced.

And in any case, my opinion is that this is a safe conviction based on the totality of the evidence.

A further thing to remember is that even if the judge's words were reported accurately, this would only tend to work in favour of the man's defence. In post-conviction appeals, the only real grounds for appeal in this area are where the judge has given improper jury instructions in a manner which favours the prosecution......
We engage here not just to check whether verdicts are legally safe, but whether they are factually safe.
My wish is that there is no sniping on thread while we consider this. When a judge's summing up is contradictory at the profoundest level all matters are germane.
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Old 27th November 2019, 04:28 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
We engage here not just to check whether verdicts are legally safe, but whether they are factually safe.
My wish is that there is no sniping on thread while we consider this. When a judge's summing up is contradictory at the profoundest level all matters are germane.


1) But a judge's summing up is everything to do with judicial/legal considerattions rather than factual considerations.

2) In your last sentence, I'd say it should read "if" rather than "when".

3) I believe that factually this man's conviction is safe.
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Old 27th November 2019, 04:32 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
1) But a judge's summing up is everything to do with judicial/legal considerattions rather than factual considerations.

2) In your last sentence, I'd say it should read "if" rather than "when".

3) I believe that factually this man's conviction is safe.
More for a philosophy thread, but I think "believe" is a dangerous word with bad outcomes. The rest I am happy to come back to.
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Old 27th November 2019, 04:38 AM   #420
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You know, I don't care. If this is, somehow, a miscarriage of justice, someone else can go to bat for the guy. I'm all out of sympathy.
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Old 27th November 2019, 04:57 AM   #421
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I loved the part in Catch 22 when a character, might have been major major, drew a list where he headed with Black eyes and Feathers in my cap.

The accused here actually had some authentic feathers in his cap, but I am getting from local and international reaction it is going to be more peaceful for those who wish to correct the record to engage elsewhere.
Alarming, and I am surprised that the murder conviction is so casually embraced on this forum.
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:05 AM   #422
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Grace Millane is dead. He killed her. Afterwards he tried to conceal her body.

Thanks, but I'll go with the jury on this one.
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:09 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I loved the part in Catch 22 when a character, might have been major major, drew a list where he headed with Black eyes and Feathers in my cap.

The accused here actually had some authentic feathers in his cap, but I am getting from local and international reaction it is going to be more peaceful for those who wish to correct the record to engage elsewhere.
Alarming, and I am surprised that the murder conviction is so casually embraced on this forum.
I am surprised that you are so often wrong in your support for clearly correct judicial decision, Pistorius being one.

Actually, Iím not surprised. You are usually wrong.
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:41 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Just to help from earlier on. And sorry if you aren't agile enough to move from instant death from manual carotid pressure, a strike, a neck lock,
or collapse from pressure to the carotid when shaving. Most people would see the link to the overall sensitivity of the carotid, but not you obviously.

Bernard Knight: Lawyers Guide to Forensic Medicine pg 214

'Carotid Sinus'

'This is a common source of death in pressure on the neck, especially in manual strangulation, and can occur INSTANTLY when the neck is gripped.'


'In martial arts and self defense
Stimulation of the carotid sinus via a slap or a strike, to induce (usually temporary, but sometimes lethal) loss of consciousness is a theatrical self-defense technique, and is often taught in martial arts such as karate."
My experience with that was a single hand grip to both sides of the carotid sinus

Even in shaving for the elderly can cause a collapse:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537223/

"This sudden decrease in blood pressure can cause syncope, which often presents in patients who have a history of syncope while shaving or buttoning their shirts, activities which cause increased pressure on the carotid artery."

Like the above the 1933 paper on carotid compression has also been placed here earlier where neck holds were banned for law enforcement officials after instant death experiences in subduing suspects.

Don't hesitate to repeat anything 'wearily' because it's clear you can't help yourself and that it is something you love to do.

Just a reminder which I'm sure you don't want. Get anywhere with the vulnerability of a person shallow breathing having pressure applied to their necks? Or indeed why there was internal bruising only on side of Grace's neck. I won't bother you with a third one as you've been stuck on these 2 for days.

No need to write another book, yes or no will do.
And yet you can not show in an MMA fight, BJJ fight or any other grappling event where instantaneous death has occurred. You realize that chokeholds like the rear naked, the guillotine and the Darce target the blood flow to the brain by restricting the carotid arteries. According to you, they should be outlawed since instantaneous death can occur, or you should have examples of this happening to support your claim.

As to your claim that instant death is the reason that law enforcement banned chokes, I find nothing to support this. What I've found, is that they have been banned because too many officers did not know proper technique and did not restrict the carotids - which would have led to the person passing out. What happened, was that the officers restricted airflow, which ultimately led to death.

Quote:
When pressure on the carotids is released, the flow of oxygenated blood resumes immediately and consciousness slowly returns. In contrast, if the airway rather than the carotid arteries is blocked, the subject cannot breathe, but his brain is still perfused with blood and he will remain conscious and may continue to struggle for a minute or more; he will lose consciousness only when the oxygen in the circulating blood is consumed and he collapses from hypoxia. Even if the hold is released at this point, the blood circulating through the brain contains no oxygen, and consequently the subject may not regain consciousness or resume spontaneous breathing. Possibly the most important element of training for the use of chokeholds in law enforcement is the understanding that the subject should always be able to breathe freely.
(Bolding mine)
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:52 AM   #425
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That's really interesting, thanks.

(I'm mainly still trying to figure out how long it would have taken Dacid Gilroy to strangle Suzanne Pilley, but there is an awful lot of useful background information in this thread.)
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:01 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
And yet you can not show in an MMA fight, BJJ fight or any other grappling event where instantaneous death has occurred. You realize that chokeholds like the rear naked, the guillotine and the Darce target the blood flow to the brain by restricting the carotid arteries. According to you, they should be outlawed since instantaneous death can occur, or you should have examples of this happening to support your claim.


Well I don't know about you, but I'm definitely about to start a vociferous campaign to get all choke holds in MMA contests banned immediately: for heaven's sake, there's reliable medical evidence that a fighter could die instantaneously from such a choke hold being applied!!!

(Not)




Quote:
As to your claim that instant death is the reason that law enforcement banned chokes, I find nothing to support this. What I've found, is that they have been banned because too many officers did not know proper technique and did not restrict the carotids - which would have led to the person passing out. What happened, was that the officers restricted airflow, which ultimately led to death.


Yes. Unfortunately what's been happening here is that Fixit has been inventing his own version in order to support his a priori beliefs. People have died in police restraint holds to the neck because they've been choked - and all too often suffocated, as you point out - for several minutes. That's plenty long enough to cause death. And some police officers who have caused deaths in this manner have been successfully prosecuted for murder.
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:15 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I loved the part in Catch 22 when a character, might have been major major, drew a list where he headed with Black eyes and Feathers in my cap.

The accused here actually had some authentic feathers in his cap, but I am getting from local and international reaction it is going to be more peaceful for those who wish to correct the record to engage elsewhere.
Alarming, and I am surprised that the murder conviction is so casually embraced on this forum.


Firstly, what do you mean by "correct the record" here?

And secondly, I'm interested in your use of the terminology "so casually embraced on this forum". I'm not sure if you realise the purpose of debate, argumentation and opinion-forming. To my eyes, more-or-less everyone within this thread (and definitely I myself) who is arguing that this man has safely been found guilty has come to that conclusion after a rational and objective analysis of the evidence. Have you been missing all of that analysis? You're writing here as if people are either a) putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, or b) coming to a conclusion of guilt based on irrational methods such as jaundice, bias or hatred of all alleged violence by men against women.

As I mentioned above: speaking for myself (and, I believe, many others here), I conclude that this man a) factually did intentionally seriously harm Millane and in the process caused her death (i.e. murder), and b) was therefore correctly and safely convicted in court of her murder. But I came to that conclusion based upon what I judge to be a rational, objective and scientific analysis of the pertinent evidence in this case. I have no innate "desire" to have come to this conclusion, and nor have I come to this conclusion on a whim (or "casually"). And if you think that I or many others in this thread have "casually embraced" a conclusion of murder, then I'd suggest that you've been reading a different thread than this one.......
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:46 AM   #428
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Earlier in the thread we had the actual New Zealand statute defining the crime of murder quoted.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
yup, here's the actual law...

Murder defined
Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:
(a) if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:
(b) if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:
(c) if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:
(d) if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.

b) is a pretty good case in this one as causing injury through strangulation is likely to cause death and is reckless.

As we discussed the details of this case we repeatedly came back to the observation that the guy was vulnerable under point (b). Someone (Matthew Best?), on reading that, responded with "stick a fork in him, he's done."

We continued to debate whether the guy's actions as described really did fall under that heading, but it's difficult to sustain a position that they definitely didn't. Restricting someone's airway is definitely a bodily injury likely to cause death, and any adult should know that. So we're only talking about whether there was recklessness.

On this point I am content to defer to the decision of the jury. There was blood pouring from her nose. She clearly didn't speak or move after he stopped constricting her breathing. But he claimed not to have realised she was dead, and to have gone into the shower. Somehow he formed the impression that she had got up and left the flat.

That to me seems to point damningly towards recklessness. He had so little care for her wellbeing that he didn't even look at her long enough to realise she was unresponsive, or to notice the blood pouring from her nose. If you're not being reckless you look at your partner and have a care to see that she is OK. He didn't do that, which is consistent with recklessness. This seems to me to be the line the jury took and I'm absolutely OK with it. Not casual at all.

If the jury had taken a different line I would have been interested to understand that too. I struggle to see how they could get past the uncaring move to the shower without noticing that he'd killed his date and not see it as evidence of recklessness. But in the event they seem to have concluded that it was.

This isn't some glaring factual error like Meredith Kercher's stomach contents indicating she was dead a couple of hours before the police theory said she was, or the Lockerbie suitcase bomb being on the bottom layer of luggage rather than the second one, or the conversation Andrina Bryson says she saw being invisible to her if she was driving north, therefore she must have been driving south when she saw it, therefore it must have been an hour later than the time the police thought it was. These things are factual, capable of being appreciated by commentators not in court, and the court's decision challenged when they don't seem to have been understood.

This is a subjective issue. We know what happened, to a reasonable degree of detail. It boils down to whether or not the accused was reckless. There is reasonable empirical evidence to support the conclusion that he was. The jury actually saw him and were in a position to assess his attitude and degree of care better than we can.

Yes vengeful harpy, yes body of work, but when you come down to it this was a perfectly rational verdict on the evidence presented. The jury believed beyond reasonable doubt that he had been reckless. I see no reason to disagree with them.
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Old 27th November 2019, 08:54 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
And yet you can not show in an MMA fight, BJJ fight or any other grappling event where instantaneous death has occurred. You realize that chokeholds like the rear naked, the guillotine and the Darce target the blood flow to the brain by restricting the carotid arteries. According to you, they should be outlawed since instantaneous death can occur, or you should have examples of this happening to support your claim.

As to your claim that instant death is the reason that law enforcement banned chokes, I find nothing to support this. What I've found, is that they have been banned because too many officers did not know proper technique and did not restrict the carotids - which would have led to the person passing out. What happened, was that the officers restricted airflow, which ultimately led to death.

(Bolding mine)
No I can't show anything from a fight because around a decade ago when I saw the video of a Russian fighter choking his opponent to death I didn't save it. If you don't see the significance in the difference of the muscularity of the neck of a trained fighter to that of a young woman who it is suggested asked to have her neck pressed your engaging without thinking. There are details of that on line. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I have already put up the 1933 paper in which when analysed in more modern times - re choke holds, is found to still stand up. Elsewhere in America there are civil suits alleging death followed choke holds. Likewise I didn't save them and can't be bothered looking for them again. But I may despite Grace's death was an MMA fight.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:28 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Firstly, the very fact that you keep referring here to "the carotid" just goes to show that you still don't know/understand the difference between the carotid artery and the carotid sinus. They are different parts of the anatomy. Did you not know that?

Secondly, you're still playing fast and loose with trying to claim that temporary loss of consciousness (i.e. fainting) from carotid sinus stimulation is somehow the same as instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation. Why are you continuing to do this? Is it a conscious attempt to deceive?







Link please. Or it didn't happen.








Do you even know what syncope is? It seems likely that you don't (or that you do, but that you're attempting a willful deception. Because "syncope" does not mean "instantaneous death".







What?








"Shallow breathing" has nothing whatsoever to do with the mechanisms of death from compression of the carotid artery/arteries. If you don't know that, I suggest more/better research.

And I've addressed this "bruising on one side" thing twice now. Go back and read my posts properly, cos I sure can't be bothered to write it out again.
You didn't address the bruising you gave a list of 6 scenarios - guesswork.

What I know about shallow breathing is that it was mentioned trial by the pathologist in terms of resumption of breath. So take that up with the pathologist. In fact I'm sure you could give him a lecture about it, the same one many times over. If you can show that interruption of blood and oxygen flow caused by carotid pressure resulting in shallow breathing, then being reapplied is not harmful a second or third or more times and would not result in death or serious brain or heart damage that would be much appreciated. But by all means keep going around the same circle.

One of many definitions of synope: "Jan 20, 2003 - Syncope, or fainting, is a sudden, temporary loss of consciousness. ... Syncope is caused by a temporary decrease in the flow of blood to the brain. ... The doctor may recommend certain diagnostic tests to determine the cause of your fainting episodes."
Apparently the part 'enjoyed' in 'breath play' for the pleasure which in fact is the body's resistance to unconsciousness.

Temporary loss of consciousness which can happen by either 'pressure' or 'massage' of the carotid. Loss of consciousness may not be temporary in every case as Knight says, as the 1933 paper says and other links placed here.

You deliberately overlook what Knight says and hen pick over words, repeating your points in a nonsensical way before dancing back to how the offender acted after Grace's death. I could equally point out that while there is no doubt the offender is a proper arse, that Grace enjoyed 'breath play' and was therefore more likely to be engaged in it than somebody who had not done it before and texted her friend that she and the man 'had clicked.'
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:41 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Earlier in the thread we had the actual New Zealand statute defining the crime of murder quoted.




As we discussed the details of this case we repeatedly came back to the observation that the guy was vulnerable under point (b). Someone (Matthew Best?), on reading that, responded with "stick a fork in him, he's done."

We continued to debate whether the guy's actions as described really did fall under that heading, but it's difficult to sustain a position that they definitely didn't. Restricting someone's airway is definitely a bodily injury likely to cause death, and any adult should know that. So we're only talking about whether there was recklessness.

On this point I am content to defer to the decision of the jury. There was blood pouring from her nose. She clearly didn't speak or move after he stopped constricting her breathing. But he claimed not to have realised she was dead, and to have gone into the shower. Somehow he formed the impression that she had got up and left the flat.

That to me seems to point damningly towards recklessness. He had so little care for her wellbeing that he didn't even look at her long enough to realise she was unresponsive, or to notice the blood pouring from her nose. If you're not being reckless you look at your partner and have a care to see that she is OK. He didn't do that, which is consistent with recklessness. This seems to me to be the line the jury took and I'm absolutely OK with it. Not casual at all.

If the jury had taken a different line I would have been interested to understand that too. I struggle to see how they could get past the uncaring move to the shower without noticing that he'd killed his date and not see it as evidence of recklessness. But in the event they seem to have concluded that it was.

This isn't some glaring factual error like Meredith Kercher's stomach contents indicating she was dead a couple of hours before the police theory said she was, or the Lockerbie suitcase bomb being on the bottom layer of luggage rather than the second one, or the conversation Andrina Bryson says she saw being invisible to her if she was driving north, therefore she must have been driving south when she saw it, therefore it must have been an hour later than the time the police thought it was. These things are factual, capable of being appreciated by commentators not in court, and the court's decision challenged when they don't seem to have been understood.

This is a subjective issue. We know what happened, to a reasonable degree of detail. It boils down to whether or not the accused was reckless. There is reasonable empirical evidence to support the conclusion that he was. The jury actually saw him and were in a position to assess his attitude and degree of care better than we can.

Yes vengeful harpy, yes body of work, but when you come down to it this was a perfectly rational verdict on the evidence presented. The jury believed beyond reasonable doubt that he had been reckless. I see no reason to disagree with them.
This is all good. But I think the evidence (according to his interview) was that he noticed the blood after coming from the shower.
I haven't yet found anything in any detail about blood from the nose from victims of strangulation?
Was there any advantage for him in mentioning the blood and would have been known about if he had not?
I have however read about an unconscious body being in a position where breathing may be inhibited. These details may have been covered at trial and would quite likely make a difference in understanding the differences between the Crown and Defence cases.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:43 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Firstly, what do you mean by "correct the record" here?

And secondly, I'm interested in your use of the terminology "so casually embraced on this forum". I'm not sure if you realise the purpose of debate, argumentation and opinion-forming. To my eyes, more-or-less everyone within this thread (and definitely I myself) who is arguing that this man has safely been found guilty has come to that conclusion after a rational and objective analysis of the evidence. Have you been missing all of that analysis? You're writing here as if people are either a) putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, or b) coming to a conclusion of guilt based on irrational methods such as jaundice, bias or hatred of all alleged violence by men against women.

As I mentioned above: speaking for myself (and, I believe, many others here), I conclude that this man a) factually did intentionally seriously harm Millane and in the process caused her death (i.e. murder), and b) was therefore correctly and safely convicted in court of her murder. But I came to that conclusion based upon what I judge to be a rational, objective and scientific analysis of the pertinent evidence in this case. I have no innate "desire" to have come to this conclusion, and nor have I come to this conclusion on a whim (or "casually"). And if you think that I or many others in this thread have "casually embraced" a conclusion of murder, then I'd suggest that you've been reading a different thread than this one.......
Feel free to generously congratulate yourself.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:44 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
No I can't show anything from a fight because around a decade ago when I saw the video of a Russian fighter choking his opponent to death I didn't save it.
Of course you didn't. Looking up the history, it appears that zero MMA deaths have been attributed to choking with the majority due to strikes. A few have been kidney failure, probably from dehydration due to weight cutting.

Quote:
If you don't see the significance in the difference of the muscularity of the neck of a trained fighter to that of a young woman who it is suggested asked to have her neck pressed your engaging without thinking. There are details of that on line.
That has nothing to due with the carotid and the claim of instantaneous death. You would expect to hear about it in training, especially with those just starting out.

Quote:
I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I have already put up the 1933 paper in which when analysed in more modern times - re choke holds, is found to still stand up.
Of course you are trying to convince us, you've brought it up repeatedly and asked for people to explain it. When we do, you just tell us we're wrong. As LondonJohn pointed out, nothing stands up in your paper.

Quote:
Elsewhere in America there are civil suits alleging death followed choke holds. Likewise I didn't save them and can't be bothered looking for them again. But I may despite Grace's death was an MMA fight.
Show us a suit for a choke causing instant death. The suits, as pointed out to you, are for chokes that restrict the airway and have nothing to do with the carotids.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:46 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well I don't know about you, but I'm definitely about to start a vociferous campaign to get all choke holds in MMA contests banned immediately: for heaven's sake, there's reliable medical evidence that a fighter could die instantaneously from such a choke hold being applied!!!

(Not)








Yes. Unfortunately what's been happening here is that Fixit has been inventing his own version in order to support his a priori beliefs. People have died in police restraint holds to the neck because they've been choked - and all too often suffocated, as you point out - for several minutes. That's plenty long enough to cause death. And some police officers who have caused deaths in this manner have been successfully prosecuted for murder.
How jolly. No idea that fighters strengthen their necks?

Of course your opinion about choke holds varies from the 1933 paper and the published book of Bernard Knight - the details of which I posted 'again' for you yesterday.

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Old 27th November 2019, 09:58 AM   #435
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You're not understanding my meaning. Never mind why the blood was there or what it might say about the exact cause of death. We're talking about evidence of negligence while he was actually engaging in this supposed "breath-play".

I think we agree that any adult should know that restricting someone's ability to breathe by compressing their neck is something that is likely to cause death. The question then boils down to one of, was his behaviour while he was doing that reckless as to whether death actually resulted?

The only way to avoid such recklessness is to observe one's partner carefully. To be alert for signs that something is going wrong. If he had not been reckless he should have noted two things about Grace. That blood was coming from her nose and that she was unresponsive. Absolutely without doubt. Both of these things happened, when he was still up close and personal to her, and he was doing something which required care and prudence. If such care and prudence had been in evidence he would have noticed both things right then and there.

Instead by his own admission he didn't notice. Didn't notice that he had in effect climbed off a dead or dying body that was bleeding from the nose. Didn't check to see if she was responsive, never mind that she was still breathing. Just went into the shower.

This is not behaviour which seems to me to be consistent with someone who was being careful, as opposed to negligent, when he was doing something likely to cause death. So I'm for guilty.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:07 AM   #436
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http://www.markwynn.com/wp-content/u...angulation.pdf

This advances on the 1933 paper Gonzales. Indicates that death may follow from a choker hold without the intent of the officer and the difficulty at pm in determining culpability in suspected cases of strangulation - no comment about 'breath play', meaning that it likely has not be specifically studied because of the difficulty in confirming such cases.

This quote from disbelief above has a foothold for a defendant in even possibly a 'breath play' case:


"When pressure on the carotids is released, the flow of oxygenated blood resumes immediately and consciousness slowly returns. In contrast, if the airway rather than the carotid arteries is blocked, the subject cannot breathe, but his brain is still perfused with blood and he will remain conscious and may continue to struggle for a minute or more; he will lose consciousness only when the oxygen in the circulating blood is consumed and he collapses from hypoxia. Even if the hold is released at this point, the blood circulating through the brain contains no oxygen, and consequently the subject may not regain consciousness or resume spontaneous breathing. Possibly the most important element of training for the use of chokeholds in law enforcement is the understanding that the subject should always be able to breathe freely."
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Feel free to generously congratulate yourself.


What am I congratulating myself about?

Instead of imputing emotions to me, you should perhaps instead concern yourself with the fact that you've still not provided a shred of reliable medical evidence that a choke hold can impart INSTANTANEOUS DEATH in the person being choked....?

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Old 27th November 2019, 10:51 AM   #438
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I don't actually care how long it took to kill her, or whether she died because of airway obstruction or carotid artery obstruction or the nebulous carotid sinus effect. He killed her while he was doing something to her which he knew carried the risk that she might die, and he was so negligent that he didn't actually notice she had died.

That's enough, under that statute.

To elaborate. It may well be possible to kill someone accidentally in this way. Despite the absence of negligence, something may go wrong. Alcohol is a depressant, and something that might not kill a sober person might be enough if she's absolutey plastered. However, in the absence of negligence, what we would be expecting is something like "OMG Gloria, wake up!" Not a trip to the shower and the assumption that she'd just got up and left.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:36 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What am I congratulating myself about?

Instead of imputing emotions to me, you should perhaps instead concern yourself with the fact that you've still not provided a shred of reliable medical evidence that a choke hold can impart INSTANTANEOUS DEATH in the person being choked....?

Bernard Knight.

Go to pages 213-214 under heading Carotid Sinus Pressure:
'This is a common source of death in pressure on the neck, especially in manual strangulation, and can occur INSTANTLY when the neck is gripped.'

10th time lucky
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't actually care how long it took to kill her, or whether she died because of airway obstruction or carotid artery obstruction or the nebulous carotid sinus effect. He killed her while he was doing something to her which he knew carried the risk that she might die, and he was so negligent that he didn't actually notice she had died.

That's enough, under that statute.

To elaborate. It may well be possible to kill someone accidentally in this way. Despite the absence of negligence, something may go wrong. Alcohol is a depressant, and something that might not kill a sober person might be enough if she's absolutey plastered. However, in the absence of negligence, what we would be expecting is something like "OMG Gloria, wake up!" Not a trip to the shower and the assumption that she'd just got up and left.
That's a judgement on post death behaviour only?
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