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Tags Grace Millane , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 12th November 2019, 03:25 PM   #41
Fixit
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The rest of the pathologist cross was essentially
1. There was no preexisting condition apparent, she was a normal healthy 22 year old
2. Her blood alcohol was 122 mg per liter
3. There was no damage to bones
4. There was a deep internal bruise about 8 by 6 cm present only on the left side of the throat.
5. Sustained pressure for 4 to 5 minutes would be needed to cause death.
6. Similar coloured bruises were constrained to both inner arms suggesting solid restraint.
7. Fingernail scrapings were taken but no data was presented in court. Conclusion, no accused dna found to suggest she was fighting him off.
Good point about the fingernail DNA unless there has been evidence about that you didn't hear.
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Old 12th November 2019, 03:28 PM   #42
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I don't think the absence of fingernail DNA proves she wasn't trying to fight him off, depending on how she was restrained. It's just that its presence would have been a fairly good indication that she had in fact tried.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not sure the legal distinction is framed like that. Murder requires a mens rea, an intention to commit the act. If the accused succeeds in creating reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury that he had the mens rea, then as far as I know it's not murder.

I don't think there was premeditation here, and I have a great deal of doubt as to whether there was actual mens rea even for the instant it takes for that to happen. However I have a lot of sympathy with the view that says, if the negligence that led to the death was extreme then it's arguable that it should be murder. It's just that I don't think that's what the law says. I think the law would put it on the high end of culpable homicide and perhaps the sentence might be comparable to a murder sentence. Maybe we're talking about how we think the law ought to be as opposed to how it actually is.
Under NZ Law being reckless with disregard for the outcome, whether the outcome was intended to be death or not, constitutes the legal definition of murder. If the intent is established as not being reckless as to whether death 'ensued or not' a person may be found guilty of manslaughter.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I think it's more probable that he was recklessly indifferent as to whether he harmed/killed her than that he planned to do so. Once the indifference reaches a certain level I don't know that there is that much distinction morally between not caring whether you are harming somebody or not and intentionally harming them.

I don't see how the actions afterwards could make it murder, but it might cause the jury to be likely to see it that way - that is, attempting to conceal what happened could be taken as an indication of guilt.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:11 PM   #45
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The prosecutor did not ask about fingernail evidence, but defence did. I was all ears to hear what the evidence revealed, but it was simply established that they had been kept as always, and defence did not ask what was found. Then pretty soon it was lunch break, and me back to work. I can't rule out further discussion but from memory there was another subject following. I must check my notes.

Last edited by Samson; 12th November 2019 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:27 PM   #46
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I haven't read all of Samson's links. But one woman called to give evidence said she met with the accused and had sex during which he put pressure on her neck which was 'just right.' Another said she panicked and slumped in order that he may have thought she was dead. The 2nd witness was exposed somewhat during her cross examination for exchanging 705 texts with the accused after their meeting. She claimed she did that because she was scared, she also admitted knowing details about the man before her police interview which she had earlier denied. Defence counsel put it her that she may have been exaggerating her story because of the embarrassment of a 'hook up' with was to become an accused murderer. She also had a boyfriend and so on. But both those witnesses evidence was a surprise favouring the defence telling the Jury that it was a consensual act gone wrong.
With certain reservations I'd say there may have been other times in NZ where police might have 'hidden' the type of evidence that the first lady gave.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:29 PM   #47
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This from this afternoon, this passage needs reading, almost a Coen brothers script

The jury is now hearing from the woman the accused went on a date with on December 2.
They met at about 4pm at the Revelry bar in Ponsonby after earlier matching on the dating app Tinder.
The accused at the Revelry bar on December 2.
She told the court the accused mentioned all his mates were police officers, whom he would enjoy barbeques with.
"I thought it was strange that all his friends were police officers, I thought that was a bit odd," she said.
The accused, the woman told the court, also said he was "trying to find a really large duffel bag".
"He really wanted to find a big bag with wheels on it."
The accused, the woman said, also told her one of his friends had come to New Zealand to be a Crown prosecutor.
The woman said she was a former journalist and had covered murder trials.
The accused, however, recalled a story about how a man had killed a woman during rough sex and was later convicted of manslaughter, the woman said.
"It's crazy how guys can make one wrong move and go to jail for the rest of their life," the accused allegedly told her.
She told the court the accused appeared "very intense, he was quite calm though".
"He seemed to have empathy with this man that he knew."
But, she added, the accused also seemed to be aloof.
"I think he was just kind of in his own world telling this story."
The woman said: "I just felt a bit uncomfortable."
The accused then allegedly told his date the police were "having a really tough time out in the Waitakere's cause a lot of bodies are out there".
"There are a lot of bodies going missing in the Waitakeres," the woman recalled the accused mentioning.
She said the alleged killer also told her police dogs can only smell bodies if they are buried four feet or less underground.
"I thought it was an unusual thing to say on a date but people say strange things on dates," the woman told the court."


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12284844

Last edited by Samson; 12th November 2019 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Under NZ Law being reckless with disregard for the outcome, whether the outcome was intended to be death or not, constitutes the legal definition of murder. If the intent is established as not being reckless as to whether death 'ensued or not' a person may be found guilty of manslaughter.
yup, here's the actual law...

Murder defined
Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:
(a) if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:
(b) if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:
(c) if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:
(d) if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.

b) is a pretty good case in this one as causing injury through strangulation is likely to cause death and is reckless.
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Old 13th November 2019, 04:25 AM   #49
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The woman he met after killing Grace said he told her he used to be an international level sportsman back in Australia.
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Old 13th November 2019, 07:54 AM   #50
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I realise we've just heard (part of) the prosecution case thus far, and we don't know what his actual defence will turn out to be, but as far as I am concerned, stick a fork in him, he's done.
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Old 13th November 2019, 02:10 PM   #51
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Yup. After reading Phantom Wolf's quotes of the actual law (I assume of New Zealand), I concur.
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Old 13th November 2019, 10:33 PM   #52
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In terms of the thread title, it is worth noting the few soft tissue injuries, arms and left throat, and the unblemished fingernails ( a point the pathologist noted when I referred to notes), are consistent with what he told the arresting cop in the second interview. Shades of grey is pretty out there for those unfamiliar, I have just seen some of the second movie and not read the books.

Then, the accused claims, Millane began talking about 50 Shades of Grey.
"She told me that there's a few things she likes doing and that she'd done with her ex-partner.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12285173

Last edited by Samson; 13th November 2019 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 14th November 2019, 12:15 AM   #53
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https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...cid=spartandhp

Another link hope it works.

In one of NZ's controversial cases Mark Lundy fingernail DNA of 2 males is ignored, here the lack of any male DNA under Grace's nails supports as a lack of defensive injuries.

Overall this case appears finally balanced. I'm interested to know if 'Tinder' has algorithms for what has been described as 'hookups' indicating what the parties are looking for in a partner. I'm told 'hookups' are by design meant to be sole meetings.
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Old 14th November 2019, 01:32 AM   #54
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Can't believe a word he says. On his date number two after the death he told the woman that he knew of a guy who had asked her for asphyxiation during sex and she had accidentally died.

In his version to the police it was supposedly Grace asking him because she like '50 Shades of Gray'.

He also claims he fell asleep in the shower to explain how come he didn't notice straight away she was dead.

I am frankly sceptical that a 21/22-year-old woman from a sheltered background would be experienced in kinky sex and especially not on the first date with a complete stranger.
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Old 14th November 2019, 02:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Can't believe a word he says. On his date number two after the death he told the woman that he knew of a guy who had asked her for asphyxiation during sex and she had accidentally died.

In his version to the police it was supposedly Grace asking him because she like '50 Shades of Gray'.

He also claims he fell asleep in the shower to explain how come he didn't notice straight away she was dead.

I am frankly sceptical that a 21/22-year-old woman from a sheltered background would be experienced in kinky sex and especially not on the first date with a complete stranger.
It seems important on this forum to confront the evidence as it unfolds.
I might have had a sheltered background, without internet, but the shelter has been expunged for myriads of millenials and later who are now apparently being nursed through an epidemic of depression. Is this case an extreme iteration of what can go wrong?
Or is he a cold blooded killer?
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Old 14th November 2019, 03:10 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It seems important on this forum to confront the evidence as it unfolds.
I might have had a sheltered background, without internet, but the shelter has been expunged for myriads of millenials and later who are now apparently being nursed through an epidemic of depression. Is this case an extreme iteration of what can go wrong?
Or is he a cold blooded killer?
His lies and changing alibis are a red flag IMV.

He says he disposed of the body because finding a dead body in his hotel room 'would look bad'.

Well, why is his ID being kept secret. Has he done something similar before?
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Old 14th November 2019, 04:29 AM   #57
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I think his entire story stinks to high heaven. But I don't think the possibility of a young woman from a respectable background being experience in "kinky sex" is all that remote these days. There's the internet. There's the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey. There's the fact that she had been a student, presumably living on campus, for at least three years. And there's the fact that she was on a solo backpacking trip.

I'd say it was at least within the realms of possibility.
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Old 14th November 2019, 04:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
yup, here's the actual law...

Murder defined
Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:
(a) if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:
(b) if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:
(c) if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:
(d) if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.

b) is a pretty good case in this one as causing injury through strangulation is likely to cause death and is reckless.
This is what I was wondering, as I know some laws are worded this way in relation to recklessness (the same with sexual assault, where some legal systems regard reckless indifference as to whether the other party was consenting as sufficient rather than requiring knowledge that there was no consent).

This would still require proof of intent to cause bodily injury likely to cause death.
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:29 AM   #59
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I had an ex girlfriend who was into the choking thing, but I really didn't like doing it. And she wanted to be choked to the point of passing out, which I was just flat out never going to do. But I mention it for those who are saying "how could you not know something is wrong?" These things can escalate rather quickly. The same girl also asked to be smacked in the face during sex, which I wouldn't do either. I'm just too much of a prude I suppose.
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:00 AM   #60
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Imagine how that girl he went on the second date with must be feeling. Jesus christ. If that were me, I don't think I'd ever be able to comfortably meet a new acquaintance again.
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
This is basically what I was trying to say in all my earlier wittering on.
Oh please you do yourself disservice.

Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think my personal disgust with these types of activities may have come through and clouded my message. I didn't mean for that to happen. There are lots of things that disgust me that I still believe should be perfectly legal and acceptable for people who like them.
Well we'll disagree about this; my SO's and I are active BDSM practitioners.

That said the acts describes are BDSM in the generally accepted sense being unsafe and (frankly) rather insane.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
yup, here's the actual law...

Murder defined
Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:
(a) if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:
(b) if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:
(c) if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:
(d) if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.

b) is a pretty good case in this one as causing injury through strangulation is likely to cause death and is reckless.
I think that's quite debatable. I don't see any evidence for actions that would plausibly be described as "bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death".
I see stupidity and recklessly unsafe behaviour, but I don't see the intentional infliction of injury of that type.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:07 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh please you do yourself disservice.


Well we'll disagree about this; my SO's and I are active BDSM practitioners.

That said the acts describes are BDSM in the generally accepted sense being unsafe and (frankly) rather insane.
I've hung around the scene. I just don't personally get down with the idea of the more hardcore stuff, chokings and beatings and knifeplay, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people who do. The idea just gives me the willies. Watching someone eat a sandwich slathered in ketchup gives me the willies as well, though.

Theprestige reacted somewhat poorly to what I was saying, so I assumed my personal feelings must have come through in my post. But they are entirely irrelevant to what went down between these other two people.

Since you are a fan of the scene yourself, I'd be curious to know - do you agree with what I'm saying, that a dom has essentially a "sacred" duty to keep their partner safe above all else? That's where it seemed like this guy ****** up, badly enough (in my opinion) to possibly constitute murder.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think his entire story stinks to high heaven. But I don't think the possibility of a young woman from a respectable background being experience in "kinky sex" is all that remote these days. There's the internet. There's the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey. There's the fact that she had been a student, presumably living on campus, for at least three years. And there's the fact that she was on a solo backpacking trip.

I'd say it was at least within the realms of possibility.
It never was, back to Kinsey's 3%...

The Richters, Grulich & de Visser study (Aus, 2003) found that "2.2% of men and 1.3% of women between ages 16–59 years had engaged in BDSM activity during the previous year". Flash forward sixteen years and the interest in BDSM is over 45% and regular practitioners around 7.5% (Holvoet, Huys & Coppens; Bel, 2018) with fantasy rates at ~70%.

I'm not aware of a recent Australian study but the Renaud & Byers study of Canadian university students seems plausibly applicable and found that:
  • 72% of men and 59% of women had had fantasies of being tied up
  • 65% of men and 58% of women had fantasies of tying up a partner
  • 60% of men and 31% of women indicated positive thoughts of whipping or spanking someone
  • 44% of men and 35% of women indicated positive thoughts of being whipped or spanked
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:16 AM   #65
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Well, I hope nobody ever looks at my search history, because I've been googling "how long does it take to die of strangulation" and stuff like that. It's as I thought - most sources are saying that it can take five minutes, although unconsciousness occurs long before that. I'm fairly uninitiated in this type of play, and I'm the first to admit it. So maybe I've got this wrong. But I'm having trouble understanding how a properly caring and attentive dom could keep going for that long after his partner was already unconscious. He must have been horribly careless, at best.

At worst, he was turned on by her dying and couldn't make himself stop even when things had gone too far. And many possibilities lie between those two points. None of them make him look very good in my mind.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:19 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
At worst, he was turned on by her dying and couldn't make himself stop even when things had gone too far. And many possibilities lie between those two points. None of them make him look very good in my mind.
I would say what he is alleged to have done afterwards doesn't look good.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:24 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It never was, back to Kinsey's 3%...

The Richters, Grulich & de Visser study (Aus, 2003) found that "2.2% of men and 1.3% of women between ages 16–59 years had engaged in BDSM activity during the previous year". Flash forward sixteen years and the interest in BDSM is over 45% and regular practitioners around 7.5% (Holvoet, Huys & Coppens; Bel, 2018) with fantasy rates at ~70%.

I'm not aware of a recent Australian study but the Renaud & Byers study of Canadian university students seems plausibly applicable and found that:
  • 72% of men and 59% of women had had fantasies of being tied up
  • 65% of men and 58% of women had fantasies of tying up a partner
  • 60% of men and 31% of women indicated positive thoughts of whipping or spanking someone
  • 44% of men and 35% of women indicated positive thoughts of being whipped or spanked
See, all that stuff sounds pretty good to me . It's just the more violent play that scares me. But again, I truly don't make a value judgment beyond "yikes, not my thing." Until someone gets killed, and then I guess I start to sound a little judgy. But I'm not judging the activity itself so much as someone who enjoys it to the exclusion of caring about someone else's life.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:28 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It never was, back to Kinsey's 3%...

The Richters, Grulich & de Visser study (Aus, 2003) found that "2.2% of men and 1.3% of women between ages 16–59 years had engaged in BDSM activity during the previous year". Flash forward sixteen years and the interest in BDSM is over 45% and regular practitioners around 7.5% (Holvoet, Huys & Coppens; Bel, 2018) with fantasy rates at ~70%.

I'm not aware of a recent Australian study but the Renaud & Byers study of Canadian university students seems plausibly applicable and found that:
  • 72% of men and 59% of women had had fantasies of being tied up
  • 65% of men and 58% of women had fantasies of tying up a partner
  • 60% of men and 31% of women indicated positive thoughts of whipping or spanking someone
  • 44% of men and 35% of women indicated positive thoughts of being whipped or spanked
The operative word here is 'fantasies'.

I can recall the punk era when many of my friends frequented the Roxy and the Embassy. Bondage tartan trousers, nose and tongue clips, shiny PVC, etc. Doesn't mean it translated into inflicting pain on each other during sex, Sid Vicious aside. I do recall Depeche Mode raising a few eyebrows with Master & Servant.
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:11 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
See, all that stuff sounds pretty good to me : D. It's just the more violent play that scares me. But again, I truly don't make a value judgment beyond "yikes, not my thing." Until someone gets killed, and then I guess I start to sound a little judgy. But I'm not judging the activity itself so much as someone who enjoys it to the exclusion of caring about someone else's life.
You're still trying to convert negligence to murder-by-default. Nowhere else in law is this principle recognized or applied.

A surgeon has a sacred duty, but when someone dies on the operating table we don't call it murder just because we can't discern his motive. A skydiving instructor has a sacred duty, but when he mis-packs his student's parachute we don't call it murder just because we can't discern his motive.

People engage in risky behavior and get each other killed through negligence all the time. Negligence is not murder. I think it's a serious failure of justice to conflate the two the way you are trying to do.

Criminal negligence? Yes. Murder? Not unless you can prove intent. Which is a separate thing from negligence.

---

As to whether your position is motivated by distaste for the activities themselves... Do you feel that death by negligence should always be prosecuted as murder in the absence of a clear intent? Or is it only in cases of carelessness during BDSM play?

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Old 14th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're still trying to convert negligence to murder-by-default. Nowhere else in law is this principle recognized or applied.

A surgeon has a sacred duty, but when someone dies on the operating table we don't call it murder just because we can't discern his motive. A skydiving instructor has a sacred duty, but when he mis-packs his student's parachute we don't call it murder just because we can't discern his motive.

People engage in risky behavior and get each other killed through negligence all the time. Negligence is not murder. I think it's a serious failure of justice to conflate the two the way you are trying to do.

Criminal negligence? Yes. Murder? Not unless you can prove intent. Which is a separate thing from negligence.

---

As to whether your position is motivated by distaste for the activities themselves... Do you feel that death by negligence should always be prosecuted as murder in the absence of a clear intent? Or is it only in cases of carelessness during BDSM play?
I asked you before if you really don't see a difference between negligently continuing to choke or beat a person you have in a helpless position and other types of negligence, such as packing a parachute wrong. You never answered.

I think there is a difference, because in the former case, it's not just a single whoopsie. It's an ongoing, active, physical beatdown of some sort.

Now, you're right about the intent part. And that is crucial. But still, something like this surely deserves a higher charge than someone whose actions caused a workplace accident. Intent gets greyer when you're actually choking someone within an inch of their lives and cross over. That's how I see it, anyway.


What do the laws say about whether or not someone can consent to be assaulted, anyway? Does that vary by location?
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:45 AM   #71
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I have no idea about New Zealand, but in the UK that was one of the main points of contention about Operation Spanner.

A resulting House of Lords judgement, R v Brown, ruled that consent was not a valid legal defence for actual bodily harm in Britain
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:49 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I would say what he is alleged to have done afterwards doesn't look good.
That influenced me in the beginning but other evidence reduced that, someone noted that his complete and disastrous attempt to hide the body (which he later guided police to) shows he had little forethought as to some disaster potentially following.

His defence has been inspired. It is of much interest if whether he takes the stand or not. In his interview he spoke about vomiting - an indication of shock.
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Old 14th November 2019, 11:00 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
That influenced me in the beginning but other evidence reduced that, someone noted that his complete and disastrous attempt to hide the body (which he later guided police to) shows he had little forethought as to some disaster potentially following.

His defence has been inspired. It is of much interest if whether he takes the stand or not. In his interview he spoke about vomiting - an indication of shock.
I wasn't thinking it was (if accurate) evidence of premeditation, more as an absence of normal moral emotions (which might also increase the likelihood of not having paid attention to or responded normally to signs of distress during the incident).
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Old 14th November 2019, 11:07 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I have no idea about New Zealand, but in the UK that was one of the main points of contention about Operation Spanner.

A resulting House of Lords judgement, R v Brown, ruled that consent was not a valid legal defence for actual bodily harm in Britain
Not sure in NZ, know of prosecutions for assisted death. There are possible elements of manslaughter here. Perhaps counsel should have inquired from the Crown what elements in the evidence were seen to lift the charge to murder although it's something NZ police commonly do which arguably increases the risk of an inappropriate verdict on the wrong charge. Counsel may consider asking the Court to reduce the charge - a request which in itself suggests guilt for manslaughter but not murder. From memory such requests would happen in chambers in order that it doesn't influence the Jury. Here, I think from the opening pleadings which I took little notice of, the defence will look for an acquittal but perhaps expect the worst case scenario to be a conviction for manslaughter.
Looking at what the defendant said about his drinking, and the apparent drinking they did as a couple - alcohol played a significant role. If so where did he, they, lose the capacity to predict what might 'ensue?'
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Old 14th November 2019, 01:52 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
That influenced me in the beginning but other evidence reduced that, someone noted that his complete and disastrous attempt to hide the body (which he later guided police to) shows he had little forethought as to some disaster potentially following.

His defence has been inspired. It is of much interest if whether he takes the stand or not. In his interview he spoke about vomiting - an indication of shock.
Sure. That's why he threw away her phone.

He also watched porn afterwards and took dirty pictures.

Crocodile tears. Anyone can claim they vomited and screamed, 'Grace, Grace!' like it was a complete surprise.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think his entire story stinks to high heaven. But I don't think the possibility of a young woman from a respectable background being experience in "kinky sex" is all that remote these days. There's the internet. There's the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey. There's the fact that she had been a student, presumably living on campus, for at least three years. And there's the fact that she was on a solo backpacking trip.

I'd say it was at least within the realms of possibility.


I'd agree.

But I'd also say that he pretty much damned himself with his changing stories. Having originally claimed that she left the hotel of her own accord, I think it's highly likely* that he only changed his story when he was confronted with evidence in the form of CCTV footage from the hotel showing her entering but never leaving.

And, frankly, I think that any jury in the world would find it nigh-on impossible to believe that - HAD she died accidentally during kinky sex as he then claimed - he would have gone out to buy a large suitcase and a shovel, hire a car, wheel her body out of the hotel in the suitcase, drive her body to the countryside outside Auckland, and bury her (still within the suitcase). Panicking if one actually does discover a sex partner has died accidentally in these circumstances is one thing. But the carefully-crafted lengths that he went to in this case went (IMO) way, way beyond the actions of a panicking man who'd chanced upon the accidental death of a sex parner.

I'd say that the combination of 1) his changing stories (with the changes only forced upon him by the presentation to him of evidence which disproved his original story), and 2) the carefully premeditated steps he took to transport and dispose of Millane's body, make his case for innocence - or even any case for manslaugher - very weak indeed. Provisionally, I'd say he's factually guilty of her murder.


* This may actually have come out in the trial - I haven't followed it closely enough to know for sure.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:36 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think his entire story stinks to high heaven. But I don't think the possibility of a young woman from a respectable background being experience in "kinky sex" is all that remote these days. There's the internet. There's the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey. There's the fact that she had been a student, presumably living on campus, for at least three years. And there's the fact that she was on a solo backpacking trip.

I'd say it was at least within the realms of possibility.
Do you know anything about 50 Shades? Reading it actually makes you less experienced at BDSM. If that was her source of truth, no wonder she's dead.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:52 PM   #78
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No. I don't know anything about it at all beyond maybe a paragraph I saw quoted somewhere to poke fun at it. And I don't really remember that in any detail.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:36 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sure. That's why he threw away her phone.

He also watched porn afterwards and took dirty pictures.

Crocodile tears. Anyone can claim they vomited and screamed, 'Grace, Grace!' like it was a complete surprise.
You seem to be mistaking the discussion of possibilities as some sort of challenge?

That he was trying to avoid being caught was most likely the reason he threw away his phone, moved the body and didn't ring emergency services. That seems pretty clear.

You must have missed the evidence that he admitted that he and Grace took photos of one another. The time of the photos in respect as to when Grace died, isn't clear. There was a claim they were after she died, but that now isn't clear.

They may, or may not have been crocodile tears. I'm sure once he made the claim that he vomited had police found he did not would have been used against him - as a major indication that he was still lying 'after he came clean.'

I'm not positional about my opinion. I've already changed my mind once, and may again. At the moment he had one partner who said she was happy with the way the accused pressured her neck, the next claimed she wasn't happy with - she had a boyfriend and exchanged some 700 texts with the accused after their hookup. The accused's second statement to this point has not been derailed. The police would want to show he lied in his second statement but their case is closed and that did not happen. The first witness Monday is meant to be a forensic pathologist. A rumour circulates that a former boyfriend of Grace's may give evidence.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:47 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'd agree.

But I'd also say that he pretty much damned himself with his changing stories. Having originally claimed that she left the hotel of her own accord, I think it's highly likely* that he only changed his story when he was confronted with evidence in the form of CCTV footage from the hotel showing her entering but never leaving.

And, frankly, I think that any jury in the world would find it nigh-on impossible to believe that - HAD she died accidentally during kinky sex as he then claimed - he would have gone out to buy a large suitcase and a shovel, hire a car, wheel her body out of the hotel in the suitcase, drive her body to the countryside outside Auckland, and bury her (still within the suitcase). Panicking if one actually does discover a sex partner has died accidentally in these circumstances is one thing. But the carefully-crafted lengths that he went to in this case went (IMO) way, way beyond the actions of a panicking man who'd chanced upon the accidental death of a sex parner.

I'd say that the combination of 1) his changing stories (with the changes only forced upon him by the presentation to him of evidence which disproved his original story), and 2) the carefully premeditated steps he took to transport and dispose of Millane's body, make his case for innocence - or even any case for manslaugher - very weak indeed. Provisionally, I'd say he's factually guilty of her murder.


* This may actually have come out in the trial - I haven't followed it closely enough to know for sure.
As I wrote above the defence has the opportunity to say he told the truth in the 2nd instance and to this point he has not been exposed as having lied. He's either gone from thick to clever, or he panicked. Premeditation? Where did it start, when he panicked, or later? He clearly hadn't planned to kill a woman he'd never met, we know of 1 partner who was quite 'happy,' another that claimed not to be but whose subsequent behaviour indicated otherwise. If he was going to kill Grace deliberately where was he going to take his next date?

My opinions on this are tempered by not having read 50 shades of Grey and being surprised by these sort of hookups - the reason I question whether there is some kind of algorithm encoded in the Tinder 'advertising' for partners. Again, 1 who wanted to have her neck pressured, 1 who claimed she didn't then a 3rd we may never know about.

Monday will be interesting. I think the man is Australian by the way.
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