What a 'defund the police' plan in Seattle might look like

[Brainster]

The NY Times accidentally publishes some excellent journalism on what the business owners and residents of the CHOP went through:

Quote:

Faizel Khan was being told by the news media and his own mayor that the protests in his hometown were peaceful, with “a block party atmosphere.”

But that was not what he saw through the windows of his Seattle coffee shop. He saw encampments overtaking the sidewalks. He saw roving bands of masked protesters smashing windows and looting.

Young white men wielding guns would harangue customers as well as Mr. Khan, a gay man of Middle Eastern descent who moved here from Texas so he could more comfortably be out. To get into his coffee shop, he sometimes had to seek the permission of self-appointed armed guards to cross a border they had erected.

Eric Hoffer observed that every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business and eventually degenerates into a racket. Black Lives Matter seems to be hustling in that direction:

Quote:

When a tall man in a trench coat and hiking boots walked over to question Mr. Khan, the man spread his coat open, revealing several pistols on harnesses around his chest and waist. He presented a badge on a lanyard that read “Black Lives Matter Community Patrol.”

His name is Rick Hearns and he identified himself as a longtime security guard and mover who is now a Black Lives Matter community guard, in charge of several others. Local merchants pay for his protection, he said as he handed out his business card.

Protection indeed.

[Puppycow]

Black people in Portland struggle to be heard amid protests

Quote:

In June, the City Council cut nearly $16 million from the Police Bureau budget. The cuts shuttered programs like the gun violence reduction unit, a youth services program and ended the presence of school resource officers in three school districts.

In July, the city experienced a sharp rise in gun violence that has overwhelmingly hurt Black people. There were 99 shootings — more than triple the amount from the previous July — and the city has tallied 366 non-suicide shootings this year compared to 388 in all of 2019. Roughly two-thirds of the victims in July were Black, said police Sgt. Derrick Foxworth.

Kimberly Dixon, who lost her son to gun violence in 2013, said the dissolution of the gun violence reduction team has hurt the Black community. Mayor Ted Wheeler said he is working on a solution that will be made public soon.

“You took away the expertise that was there, the relationships that were there,” Dixon said. “That connectivity is important, historical context is important. When you disbanded it, did you rebuild? … This is the carnage that is left in the community.”

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Black people in Portland struggle to be heard amid protests

Violent crime is up across the country, including in cities with little to no protesting or plans to reform their police departments.

Laying this spike of crime at the feet of BLM protests in the context of an extended economic free fall during a pandemic that sees large swaths of people unemployed with very little relief strikes me as heavily motivated reasoning.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Speaking of Portland Police and their role in protecting the community:

Demetria Hester was attacked by a racist while riding the MAX yellow line. After being harangued by the avowed neo-Nazi, she left the train and was assaulted with a bottle. She managed to pepper spray the man.

When the police arrived, the assaulter was still on the scene washing his face in a water fountain. The cops refused to place the man under arrest and allowed him to leave the scene.

The next day Jeremy Christian would again launch into a racist tirade on a MAX train. He then stabbed 3 courageous people who intervened, killing 2.

Random unarmed Portlanders on the MAX train are braver than the PPB who allowed a Neo-Nazi to commit a racially based assault and walk away.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/jer...rtland-police/

PPB is bad at their job, despite drawing tremendous resources from the city. It's no mystery why people want to defund this ineffective and oppressive agency and divert the funds to alternatives that might actually serve the public.

[Emily's Cat]

I'm curious when white people will actually start listening to people in the black community, rather than just making decisions about what white people think is best for black people.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm curious when white people will actually start listening to people in the black community, rather than just making decisions about what white people think is best for black people.

Yeah, how dare white Seattle people have an opinion about policing. Let's leave it up to the 0.5% of the black population of the city to sort out.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yeah, how dare white Seattle people have an opinion about policing. Let's leave it up to the 0.5% of the black population of the city to sort out.

Sure, sure. When poll after poll of actual black people says "Hey, we don't want the police abolished or cut; we want them held accountable and to not be douches"... but white people are busy insisting that abolishing or defunding the police is "what's best for the black community" I think we might have a bit of a problem.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Sure, sure. When poll after poll of actual black people says "Hey, we don't want the police abolished or cut; we want them held accountable and to not be douches"... but white people are busy insisting that abolishing or defunding the police is "what's best for the black community" I think we might have a bit of a problem.

There is a subtle racism there- that is missed more often than not by those who have not spent their lives in, or in close proximity to, the "black community".

It is in the assumption that the black community is upset over the killing of George Floyd (amongst others) because he was black, when, more often that community is instead upset over the killing of George Floyd because he was black.

"take him behind the courthouse and shoot him", "lock him up and throw away the key", and "not in my neighborhood" are not sentiments exclusive to the white community.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yeah, how dare white Seattle people have an opinion about policing. Let's leave it up to the 0.5% of the black population of the city to sort out.

Yeah, if they're a tiny minority who cares what they have to say?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Yeah, if they're a tiny minority who cares what they have to say?

It's disingenuous to complain about a high representation of white people at protests in a city where the white people make up a large majority.

I'm not seeing how these calls for police reform are stated in strictly racial terms anyway. Seems like most of the demands are not, in fact, narrowly focused on race.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It's disingenuous to complain about a high representation of white people at protests in a city where the white people make up a large majority.

I'm not seeing how these calls for police reform are stated in strictly racial terms anyway. Seems like most of the demands are not, in fact, narrowly focused on race.

Yeah, it sounds to me like the white radicals are piggy-backing on BLM for their purposes, too.

Meanwhile, Seattle moves aheadwith what purports to be a 41% defunding for now, with more to come in 2012:

Quote:

However, the council recently admitted it would not be able to hit that 50% mark – about $85 million — for 2020, and instead would pass what it could for the 2020 package and focus on getting to that 50% in the 2021 budget, which the council starts work on next month. The council estimates that if enacted annually, the cuts it approved Monday would total 41%.

I feel certain that getting more sociologists onto the streets will make them safer.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Yeah, it sounds to me like the white radicals are piggy-backing on BLM for their purposes, too.

Meanwhile, Seattle moves aheadwith what purports to be a 41% defunding for now, with more to come in 2021:



I feel certain that getting more sociologists onto the streets will make them safer.

Falsifiable prediction: This is going to be a disaster for Seattle.

BTW, here's what Gallup says about the opinions of black Americans:
Black Americans Want Police to Retain Local Presence

Quote:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- When asked whether they want the police to spend more time, the same amount of time or less time than they currently do in their area, most Black Americans -- 61% -- want the police presence to remain the same. This is similar to the 67% of all U.S. adults preferring the status quo, including 71% of White Americans.

Meanwhile, nearly equal proportions of Black Americans say they would like the police to spend more time in their area (20%) as say they'd like them to spend less time there (19%).

Only 19% want less police presence.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Falsifiable prediction: This is going to be a disaster for Seattle.

BTW, here's what Gallup says about the opinions of black Americans:
Black Americans Want Police to Retain Local Presence


Only 19% want less police presence.

National polling is probably not the best indicator of how people in specific cities feel about their police departments.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

National polling is probably not the best indicator of how people in specific cities feel about their police departments.

What is a better indicator?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Distracted1

What is a better indicator?

According to national polling, defunding the cops is very unpopular, and yet these localities seem to be responding to local pressure to do just that.

Seeing as there's a seeming contradiction there, it's probably best not to rely too heavily on national polls to explain the actions of how city dwellers respond to city police.

What's the response from people who actually live in Seattle? Are the elected officials responding to real popular support, or are they going out on an unsupported limb to support these policies?

National polling is irrelevant.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

According to national polling, defunding the cops is very unpopular, and yet these localities seem to be responding to local pressure to do just that.

Seeing as there's a seeming contradiction there, it's probably best not to rely too heavily on national polls to explain the actions of how city dwellers respond to city police.

You also missed that Seattle is overwhelmingly white, which means if white voters in Seattle want to refund police but black voters in Seattle don't, well, the police are going to get defunded.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You also missed that Seattle is overwhelmingly white, which means if white voters in Seattle want to refund police but black voters in Seattle don't, well, the police are going to get defunded.

Is there evidence of this? Did I miss some polling data that shows what the people of Seattle actually feel about this?

Even according to national polling shared, black respondents are less opposed to defunding than white respondents. Claiming that the black community in Seattle is opposed to this policy based on national polling is absurd.

I see no evidence that whites are forcing a policy that the black community opposes.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Is there evidence of this? Did I miss some polling data that shows what the people of Seattle actually feel about this?

Even according to national polling shared, black respondents are less opposed to defunding than white respondents. Claiming that the black community in Seattle is opposed to this policy based on national polling is absurd.

I see no evidence that whites are forcing a policy that the black community opposes.

Hey, look at that- Agreement!
I posted (#15) in this thread that this is something that should definitely be put up for a referendum.
Why do you suppose the City made such a drastic decision without doing that?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Hey, look at that- Agreement!
I posted (#15) in this thread that this is something that should definitely be put up for a referendum.
Why do you suppose the City made such a drastic decision without doing that?

City council members are duly elected officials. If they are out of step with the voting public, then the electoral system can remove them at the end of their term. Why should they offer a referendum? It's their job to govern.

Apparently they felt confident enough to act. Maybe they know something about their constituents you don't.

Referendum are often used when politicians refuse to act, or take action the public doesn't support. If the people of Seattle hate this idea so much, let them launch a referendum to reverse it.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Falsifiable prediction: This is going to be a disaster for Seattle.

We have already seen what the response from the defunders will be. They'll point out that murders are up virtually everywhere (appears to be true), that the Seattle cops are conflating protest graffiti with violent crime (absurd) and they'll point out that use of force complaints are down (they will be, just look at Baltimore for that).

The Hill points out that the cuts (at least for 2020) are not quite as dramatic as the political theater would have us believe:

Quote:

The Seattle City Council approved measures on Monday that would cut up to 100 police positions and 1 percent of the department’s budget.

The proposal, which Black Lives Matter protesters backed and Mayor Jenny Durkan (D) and Police Chief Carmen Best were against, would take less than $4 million from the department’s $400 million annual budget The Associated Press reported.

Still the cuts were enough that Seattle's Black female police chief resigned in protest.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Brainster

We have already seen what the response from the defunders will be. They'll point out that murders are up virtually everywhere (appears to be true), that the Seattle cops are conflating protest graffiti with violent crime (absurd) and they'll point out that use of force complaints are down (they will be, just look at Baltimore for that).

The Hill points out that the cuts (at least for 2020) are not quite as dramatic as the political theater would have us believe:



Still the cuts were enough that Seattle's Black female police chief resigned in protest.

In fairness, the cuts would also be to her own salary.
In this climate, a black woman police chief can write her own ticket in any municipality in the Nation.
Politics would not surprise me.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Falsifiable prediction: This is going to be a disaster for Seattle.

BTW, here's what Gallup says about the opinions of black Americans:
Black Americans Want Police to Retain Local Presence


Only 19% want less police presence.

People never seem to dig very far into these studies:

Quote:

Although Black Americans seem about as comfortable as Americans overall with the amount of police presence where they live, they differ markedly in their perceptions of how their local police might treat them if they were to interact.

Fewer than one in five Black Americans feel very confident that the police in their area would treat them with courtesy and respect. While similar to the 24% of Asian Americans saying the same, it is markedly lower than the 40% of Hispanic Americans and the 56% of White Americans who feel this way. This could either stem from Black Americans' own negative experiences with the police or from their familiarity with people who have had negative encounters with law enforcement.

Turns out BLM is protesting against bad policing - you know, that thing that they've been saying the entire time that they've been protesting. Various police departments reacting by filling entire blocks with tear gas, beating up on the elderly, and so forth has been very effective in proving that they're absolutely correct.

Again.

Also notable, BLM is a youth organization. Mama White may well remember the bad old days when cops just were never around, but it's 17 YO Jamal who keeps getting harassed, beaten, and screamed at by police. Guess which one despises the local police?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Turns out BLM is protesting against bad policing - you know, that thing that they've been saying the entire time that they've been protesting. Various police departments reacting by filling entire blocks with tear gas, beating up on the elderly, and so forth has been very effective in proving that they're absolutely correct.

Again.

That old man was a crack ANTIFA operative bent on destroying law and order after all! And anyway broken skulls are what you get when you don't follow police orders to disperse, just ask John Lewis.

Imagine how if we treated every time the police needlessly broke someones skull as a serious event, the cops could never get anything done.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Distracted1

......
In this climate, a black woman police chief can write her own ticket in any municipality in the Nation.
.....

She's worked there 28 years. If she has the kind of deal most cops have, she retires with a pension for life equal to a large part of her salary plus inflation adjustments. I doubt she'll want to take on somebody else's headaches. She's more likely to become a visiting professor somewhere and hit the speaking circuit.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Is there evidence of this? Did I miss some polling data that shows what the people of Seattle actually feel about this?

Even according to national polling shared, black respondents are less opposed to defunding than white respondents. Claiming that the black community in Seattle is opposed to this policy based on national polling is absurd.

I see no evidence that whites are forcing a policy that the black community opposes.

I've got no idea what the black community in Seattle feels. But the point is, it doesn't matter. Seattle will either fund or defund the police according to what its white residents want, regardless of what its black residents want. Maybe they want the same thing, maybe they don't, but it won't make a difference either way.

[Bob001]

Some perspective on where Seattle police money goes:

Quote:

Seattle Police Department (SPD): 1,326 highly compensated SPD employees made six-figures or more while 364 employees earned over $200,000 last year. Review the entire payroll posted at OpenTheBooks.com.

Twenty SPD employees out-earned police chief Carmen Best ($289,420). The five highest paid included Ron Morgan Willis (patrol officer - $414,543); William Edward Jr (sergeant - $360,277); Steven Kim (officer - $332,274); Eric Zerr (sergeant - $331,413); and Brian Miles (sergeant - $328,338).

Other high earners included assistant chief of collaborative policing Adrian Diaz ($241,802), who seeks to foster positive relationships between the department and the community; hostage negotiation officer James Garner ($273,917); and bomb squad sergeant Daniel Miller ($279,266).

SPD employees earning six figures last year cost taxpayers a total of $237 million and included 1,052 officers, 172 sergeants, 61 lieutenants, and 23 captains. At the police academy, nineteen instructors made between $167,000 and $247,796. The high earner was Sergeant Linda Cook – and she was the only female of the nineteen instructors listed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamand.../#717cb5c1cb1a

I don't begrudge anybody earning a good living. But I suspect there are a lot of people who work as hard as these and do as good a job for a lot less cash. I wonder how much Seattle would have to pay some social workers and drug counselors to go out with the cops when appropriate.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

According to national polling, defunding the cops is very unpopular, and yet these localities seem to be responding to local pressure to do just that.

Yes, they are responding to local pressure. It's just not particularly clear that the pressure is representative of the views of either the majority of residents or of the black communities in those localities.

In Seattle and Portland, for example, the protesters are relatively small compared to the populations, and include a rather large number of young white people. I'm not so comfortable assuming that their desires are what is wanted by the people they are claiming to speak for.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Yes, they are responding to local pressure. It's just not particularly clear that the pressure is representative of the views of either the majority of residents or of the black communities in those localities.

In Seattle and Portland, for example, the protesters are relatively small compared to the populations, and include a rather large number of young white people. I'm not so comfortable assuming that their desires are what is wanted by the people they are claiming to speak for.

The cops aren't doing themselves any favors by busting up old navy vets or shooting people in the face.

100% chance that these protests would have been over a month ago had the cops managed to exercise even a tiny amount of restraint.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The cops aren't doing themselves any favors by busting up old navy vets or shooting people in the face.

But do you have any idea how funny it is when you shoot someone in the face with a baton round?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Some perspective on where Seattle police money goes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamand.../#717cb5c1cb1a

I don't begrudge anybody earning a good living. But I suspect there are a lot of people who work as hard as these and do as good a job for a lot less cash. I wonder how much Seattle would have to pay some social workers and drug counselors to go out with the cops when appropriate.

Might be worth noting:

Quote:

A police spokesperson responded to our request for comment:

“Compensation for our officers is set through the collective bargaining process pursuant to state law. It should be noted that compensation reported for 2019 includes retroactive compensation for 2015-2018 due to the union contract having expired.”

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But do you have any idea how funny it is when you shoot someone in the face with a baton round?

Sorta. I once shot a kid right between the eyes with a paintball gun, and it scared the beejesus out of him. Though he was wearing a protective mask, and it was a paintball course.

Doesn't have quite the same satisfying *crack* that I imagine inflicting a TBI does, I suppose.

[Lupus]

What the leaders of BLM and Antifa are actually after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpbK...e_polymer=true

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Lupus

What the leaders of BLM and Antifa are actually after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpbK...e_polymer=true

Well, that had nothing to do with anything.

What BLM wants will vary depending on which BLM you're discussing - by design, the various local chapters are autonomous in order to respond to the local situation. As far as I can tell, white supremacist militias that local cops wink and grin at are more of a problem in the northwest than on the east coast - where BLMNY and BLMDC is strongly fighting "stop and frisk" techniques and over-policing on subways.

Since it's not a real group, the only real thing "antifa wants" is to uproot "-fa" before it grows and multiplies.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Might be worth noting:

That would typically include cost of living, if it wasn't already paid, and whatever other bumps they agreed on, which in the current environment would be slim. I'd be very surprised if the difference is as much as 10 percent for the whole four years.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Still the cuts were enough that Seattle's Black female police chief resigned in protest.

She explains her reasons:

Outgoing Seattle police chief says it's not about money, but 'lack of respect' for officers

Quote:

Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best on Tuesday announced her resignation, saying that she was not leaving because of pay cuts to her department, but because of the “lack of respect” toward her fellow officers.

Best’s resignation comes amid the City Council’s decision to reduce the department by as many as 100 officers through layoffs and attrition.

In response to a reporter who asked if her decision was motivated by protesters who appeared at her home earlier this month, or the City Council’s decision, Best said it "is not about the money, and it certainly isn’t about the demonstrators."

“I mean, be real, I have a lot thicker skin than that," Best said. "It really is about the overarching lack of respect for the officers, the men and women who work so hard, day in and day out."

She added: “The idea that we’ve worked so incredibly hard to make sure our department was diverse, that (it) reflects the community that we serve, to just turn that all on a dime and hack it off, without having a plan in place to move forward, is highly distressful for me.”

Best, the city's first Black police chief, said in a letter to the department that her retirement will be effective Sept. 2.

"I am confident the department will make it through these difficult times," Best said in the letter. "You truly are the best police department in the country, and please trust me when I say, the vast majority of people in Seattle support you and appreciate you.”
In an email to police, Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan said she accepted Best's decision "with a very heavy heart."

"I regret deeply that she concluded that the best way to serve the city and help the department was a change in leadership, in the hope that would change the dynamics to move forward with the City Council," Durkan wrote.

A military veteran, Best joined the department in 1992 and had worked in a wide variety of roles, including patrol, media relations, narcotics, operations, and as deputy chief. The mayor picked Best in July of 2018 to lead the department. She had been serving as interim chief.

The cuts may make the SPD less diverse, not more, if anyone cares about diversity of the police force.

[Emily's Cat]

Durkan's rendition of Best's reason for leaving seems... disingenuous.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

She explains her reasons:

Outgoing Seattle police chief says it's not about money, but 'lack of respect' for officers

Real tough knowing that there are people who don't respect you in any way, huh?

Shoulda thought of that before showing that they don't respect black people, then.

Quote:

The cuts may make the SPD less diverse, not more, if anyone cares about diversity of the police force.

Don't, until cop culture changes. Or at least, until black cops stop treating black people even worse than white cops do.

Till then...Buh-bye!

[Lupus]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Well, that had nothing to do with anything.

What BLM wants will vary depending on which BLM you're discussing - by design, the various local chapters are autonomous in order to respond to the local situation. As far as I can tell, white supremacist militias that local cops wink and grin at are more of a problem in the northwest than on the east coast - where BLMNY and BLMDC is strongly fighting "stop and frisk" techniques and over-policing on subways.

Since it's not a real group, the only real thing "antifa wants" is to uproot "-fa" before it grows and multiplies.

Which group loots stores, kills people who say "all lives matter" and riots? It's BLM.
That's quite rude to say the militia's are white supremacist I'm not sure what you after here but their main interest is a sense of security within turmoil. If you look at the political stances of the main ones they are patriotic and libertarian.
Talk about who police wink and grin at, the state police are ordered by someone above to leave BLM alone in liberal states. How did you think CHOP held out as long as it did? The police were told to stand down.
For antifa firstly their goals matter to them more than who they oppose, which is anarcho-communism. If you named a neo-nazi group, "Peace and Love Org", does that make them suddenly only be about Peace and Love?
You must have not watched the video.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Lupus

What the leaders of BLM and Antifa are actually after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpbK...e_polymer=true

Deleted, too off topic.

[Lupus]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Deleted, too off topic.

It's on topic, it was saying from an empirical point of view what it would look like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_en...t_in_Venezuela