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Tags 2020 elections , George Conway , PACs , republican party , Rick Wilson , steve schmidt , The Lincoln Project

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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:45 PM   #81
Bob001
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So rather than address the whole complexity of the Pandemic, you can only do Orange Man Bad, you have the blinders. And are part of the problem.

The rest of the Western world seems to have addressed the pandemic more effectively. When Orange Man took office, Obama left him a detailed plan for dealing with pandemics, and a White House office created for that purpose. Orange Man threw out the plan and closed the office. And when it hit, Orange Man was chattering that it would "disappear, like a miracle." Yes, Orange Man Bad. Very bad. Deadly bad.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...icials-confirm
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opini...it/ar-BB1192Xy
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:47 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The rest of the Western world seems to have addressed the pandemic more effectively. When Orange Man took office, Obama left him a detailed plan for dealing with pandemics, and a White House office created for that purpose. Orange Man threw out the plan and closed the office. And when it hit, Orange Man was chattering that it would "disappear, like a miracle." Yes, Orange Man Bad. Very bad. Deadly bad.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...icials-confirm
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opini...it/ar-BB1192Xy
So stop playing petty politics and offer a better plan. Or your just in the way.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:48 PM   #83
dann
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump was fully aware of the problem with COVID in China for months and did nothing.

What he did was much worse than just doing nothing. He pretended to be doing something. If he had simply done nothing and been honest about it, people would have known that it was up to them to cope with the pandemic.

Trump pretended that the virus would never affect the USA, that it was a hoax.
When people started to get ill and die, he pretended that it was nothing to worry about.
When it became obvious that it was infecting and killing a significant number of people, he pretended that it would be over in April.
When testing and contact tracing was essential, he pretended that it had been taken care of.
As the virus continued to spread, he claimed that it was due the incompetence of D governors.
To strengthen the idea that it was a hoax, he created the anti-masker movement.
He organized Covid-19 parties like the Tulsa rally.
He persuaded R governors to reopen their states before lockdowns had hammered down the virus effectively.
And he has now ordered schools to reopen so children can help spread the virus to each other and their families.

Don't you ever claim that Trump did nothing about Covid-19!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The proper word if we're going old school, is filthy PINKO. P I N K O....
Use it correctly, as in I'm gonna vote Biden and I hate America. (Joking on the last part)
I can't help but notice that your answer is without substance.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I can't help but notice that your answer is without substance.
As is yours, I did say the last part was a joke. Did it strike a nerve?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Republican voters didn't vote for Trump because his opponent was Clinton, they voted for Trump because he was the Republican candidate. Used to be, most of the country would turn out for one candidate or the other, winners got most of the vote and there was no question who won. Not now, since before I was born the party lines were drawn and no one crosses them.

Don't forget that the majority of Republicans will still vote for him. How do you think he became the Republican candidate in the first place? It's not like they didn't have other candidates before they nominated Trump.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:56 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The rest of the Western world seems to have addressed the pandemic more effectively. When Orange Man took office, Obama left him a detailed plan for dealing with pandemics, and a White House office created for that purpose. Orange Man threw out the plan and closed the office. And when it hit, Orange Man was chattering that it would "disappear, like a miracle." Yes, Orange Man Bad. Very bad. Deadly bad.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...icials-confirm
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opini...it/ar-BB1192Xy
Rocky thinks if he can just point out that criticism of Trump is only partisan it will make people ignore that Trump flat out failed to respond and lead when faced with a crisis.

But there is no ignoring that Trump did not listen to the scientists and put his head in the sand. Or said it will go away as if wishful thinking will solve our problems. Trump not only did not do his job. He shirked his job. Instead of the "buck stops here", he responded with "it's not my responsibility".

And today, instead of leading the country, he's playing golf.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:59 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What he did was much worse than just doing nothing. He pretended to be doing something. If he had simply done nothing and been honest about it, people would have known that it was up to them to cope with the pandemic.

Trump pretended that the virus would never affect the USA, that it was a hoax.
When people started to get ill and die, he pretended that it was nothing to worry about.
When it became obvious that it was infecting and killing a significant number of people, he pretended that it would be over in April.
When testing and contact tracing was essential, he pretended that it had been taken care of.
As the virus continued to spread, he claimed that it was due the incompetence of D governors.
To strengthen the idea that it was a hoax, he created the anti-masker movement.
He organized Covid-19 parties like the Tulsa rally.
He persuaded R governors to reopen their states before lockdowns had hammered down the virus effectively.
And he has now ordered schools to reopen so children can help spread the virus to each other and their families.

Don't you ever claim that Trump did nothing about Covid-19!
He did nothing...for a while. And then he acted...which was worse.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:59 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So stop playing petty politics and offer a better plan. Or your just in the way.
For starters, most of us do have a plan, and that is to get the clown in charge who got us to this out of the picture. In the meantime, most of us have been doing what is needed on a personal level: wearing masks and sheltering in place as much as possible. The ones 'in the way' here are those who refuse, and frankly there's a lot of MAGA hats in the crowd.

Your demand that we, that is the posters of this forum, develop a pandemic plan is frankly, ridiculous. There was a plan, Trump trashed it. Now you are demanding we clean the dump he took on the kitchen floor. Its a pathetic defense.

Just so you know, at this point saying "Orange Man Bad" is a non-starter. Its basically just another way of saying "I have no defense of Trump's actions, so I'll attack you for criticizing Trump".
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So rather than address the whole complexity of the Pandemic, you can only do Orange Man Bad, you have the blinders. And are part of the problem.
OMG, you did it again.

Acbytesla discussed the complexity of Trump's failure to address the pandemic, in detail. And that's all you read.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So stop playing petty politics and offer a better plan. Or your just in the way.

There's no mystery here. The states that have "flattened the curve" have imposed mask-wearing requirements and closed or limited non-essential businesses. But Orange Man refused to set an example by wearing a mask, and the Repub governors refused to impose limits. If the same rules had been applied across the country in February, as they were in Germany, Japan, South Korea and many other countries, we could have started getting back to work and school in May. And those counries provided income support to everyone in one form or another so people didn't have to worry about being evicted or foreclosed on.

And that's before you consider that Orange Man refused to order the production of additional PPE and seems to think that testing creates cases.

In January(!) one of Orange Man's closest advisors warned him of what was coming. Orange Man ignored it. Orange Man Bad.
Quote:
In the first memo, Navarro warned of a worst-case scenario in which a half-million Americans could die. In the second, he warned the risk was growing to imperil the loss of 1.2 million lives.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/polit...yt/index.htmlN
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:01 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
For starters, most of us do have a plan, and that is to get the clown in charge who got us to this out of the picture. In the meantime, most of us have been doing what is needed on a personal level: wearing masks and sheltering in place as much as possible. The ones 'in the way' here are those who refuse, and frankly there's a lot of MAGA hats in the crowd.

Your demand that we, that is the posters of this forum, develop a pandemic plan is frankly, ridiculous. There was a plan, Trump trashed it. Now you are demanding we clean the dump he took on the kitchen floor. Its a pathetic defense.

Just so you know, at this point saying "Orange Man Bad" is a non-starter. Its basically just another way of saying "I have no defense of Trump's actions, so I'll attack you for criticizing Trump".
Nope, you are blame-storming and playing politics, offer an alternative, with actual specs.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG, you did it again.

Acbytesla discussed the complexity of Trump's failure to address the pandemic, in detail. And that's all you read.
Nope I challenged him to offer a better solution and so far, just more ridicule and blame storming. Step up or step aside.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:03 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Republican voters didn't vote for Trump because his opponent was Clinton, they voted for Trump because he was the Republican candidate. Used to be, most of the country would turn out for one candidate or the other, winners got most of the vote and there was no question who won. Not now, since before I was born the party lines were drawn and no one crosses them.
The middle crosses back and forth. It may not be a big middle but people do cross over.

IMO The Lincoln Project and the head of the Federalist Society condemning Trump are chipping people off the GOP block.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:05 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope, you are blame-storming and playing politics, offer an alternative, with actual specs.
Let me ask you this: Do you honestly think this is a legitimate counter-argument? Demanding members of a forum develop a pandemic plan after the POTUS crapped the bed?

Talk about the baddest of bad faith arguments.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:11 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope I challenged him to offer a better solution and so far, just more ridicule and blame storming. Step up or step aside.
A better solution is to shut the country down from coast to coast. Implement social distancing guidelines, and masks requirements, increase production of PPE and increase testing as well as national contact tracing. Don't recommend medicines that are not recommended by the FDA and/or CDC.

And that's just the beginning. I would have government and business leaders in the White House daily. I'd do the DAMN ******* JOB!
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Let me ask you this: Do you honestly think this is a legitimate counter-argument? Demanding members of a forum develop a pandemic plan after the POTUS crapped the bed?

Talk about the baddest of bad faith arguments.
All you're doing is offering blame, rather than dealing with a real problem. Offer a better one or frankly, shut up because you're dragging down what we have to work with. Don't be a tick.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
All you're doing is offering blame, rather than dealing with a real problem. Offer a better one or frankly, shut up because you're dragging down what we have to work with. Don't be a tick.
I'm sorry, I am not a puppet to do a dance for you. Your demands are ridiculous and frankly, childish. I am not in a position of power or logistics such that any plan I make could be implemented. So any plan I make is yelling at clouds.

As for blame? Damn right I'm blaming. This disaster has been massively exacerbated by the Executive Branch. There is little I can do about that except, wear my masks, shelter when needed, write my congresspoeple and vote in November to get the clown out. Your tantrum demands for us to somehow solve it or else we are the problem simply does not parse.

The idea that you think that demanding over and over hat we solve the problem ourselves or else we are to blame is some kind of legitimate argument is speaking volumes about your thought process.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:25 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
All you're doing is offering blame, rather than dealing with a real problem. Offer a better one or frankly, shut up because you're dragging down what we have to work with. Don't be a tick.
Nonsense! Trump didn't wear a mask publicly for 6 months. He publicly said COVID would just go away. He told and continues to promote quack cures. This isn't "blame storming" These are the ******* FACTS!

Trump could have won reelection in a walk. He just had to do one thing. Lead. And his leadership was to pretend COVID would go away. He took a non-partisan crisis and made it partisan. He attacked Democratic governors who simply followed his own CDC's recommend policies. He pushed his supporters to ignore the CDC and now the the Red States are facing the brunt of his stupidity.

Talk about seizing defeat from the jaws of victory.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 2nd August 2020 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:31 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense! Trump didn't wear a mask publicly for 6 months. He publicly said COVID would just go away. He told and continues to promote quack cures. This isn't "blame storming" These are the ******* FACTS!

Trump could have won reelection in a walk. He just had to do one thing. Lead. And his leadership was to pretend COVID would go away. He took a non-partisan crisis and made it partisan. He attacked Democratic governors who simply followed his own CDC's recommend policies. He pushed his supporters to ignore the CDC and now the the Red States are facing the brunt of his stupidity.

Talk about seizing defeat from the jaws of victory.
OFFER A SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:31 PM   #101
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Oh yeah, 'you're playing the blame game'. The old canard they used to throw out when rightfully criticized, before they discovered whataboutisms.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:32 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
OFFER A SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
In dealing with trolls, I have found facts to be useless, but ignore lists to be indispensable.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:40 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
OFFER A SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN.
I DID.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 02:38 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I DID.
No you didnt
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Old 2nd August 2020, 02:39 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No you didnt
Sure did. #96
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:27 PM   #107
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If I'm in a plane that crashes on landing because the pilot didn't put the landing gear down, do I need to detail which switches and knobs he should have hit before I can say he was a crap pilot?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:39 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
In dealing with trolls, I have found facts to be useless, but ignore lists to be indispensable.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:49 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As is yours, I did say the last part was a joke. Did it strike a nerve?
A nerve of what? Your question doesn't even make sense.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:44 AM   #110
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I see. After long, long silence, rethuglicans are back here. Now with 100% MOAR TROLLULZ.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:48 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
OFFER A SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN.
Revolutionary socialism.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:13 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A nerve of what? Your question doesn't even make sense.
Its a lame tactic msotly used by right wingers. Once they can no longer hand wave from the fact that they are outclassed, they resort to "hur hur, I was just joking, snowflake. You did exactly what I knew you would." It is safe to ignore them.

Anywho, this actually does go around to one of my original points. Part of why Trump failed is he went with a right wing talking point and put it on steroids. Let the private sector figure it out. W did do a lot to get the ball rolling on prepping for an outbreak like this, but the Republicans opposed Obama on things like expanding the national stockpiles of vital supplies and strengthening our operations with foreign governments and agencies. All in the name of "fiscal responsibility" (opposing a Democratic president). That had nothing to do with Trump, but it sent us further in his direction.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:28 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
OFFER A SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN.
Okay - use the Global Health Security and Biodefense unit, which I wouldn't have disbanded, to advise and coordinate the response, as well as following the playbook that had been created by the previous administration, and taking advice from the CDC, WHO, etc.

Observe what was happening - and what was working - in other countries and lock down early and hard. Couch it in terms of patriotism and honour, to get the more unwilling on board. Make it clear that the faster and more thoroughly lockdown happens, the quicker it can be lifted and people can get back to ordinary lives.

Ensure clear and constant lines of communication with foreign countries, as well as coordinating safe means of the trade of vital goods.

Stockpile PPE and testing kits, distributing them widely across the states, using federal funds. Ensure that there are enough for hospitals, key workers, care home staff, etc.

Institute a 14-day quarantine period for everybody entering the country.

Train and employ a large number of contact tracers so that outbreaks can quickly be quashed.

Provide extra funds for research. Set up a committee to coordinate that research with the research being done in other countries, if necessary.

Set up a furlough scheme so that people can remain employed and don't lose too much money while locked down. Have a similar scheme for people who are self-employed. Introduce universal basic income to ensure that nobody is left behind.

Provide funds and/or equipment to families and schools so that everybody has equal access to online learning.

Provide additional funds for people engaged in social care to ensure that vulnerable people are not harmed by the lockdown.

Provide funds to local authorities to partner with hotels and hostels to house the homeless during the crisis. Set up a committee to formulate and enact a plan to prevent the homeless being thrown out on the street again once the crisis is over.

Mandate mask-wearing in public spaces for those key workers who cannot stay home, and for those who need to leave the house for legitimate reasons. Impose standards for people who seek to sell masks, and make information about how to make your own freely and easily available.

Under the guidance of experts, set out clear criteria which have to be met before lockdown can be eased. Have a clear, public plan for what will happen, when, and under what conditions.

Hold regular briefings to keep the public informed, as well as using social media. For very important developments, also have text messages sent to everybody, as well as using television and radio ads.

This could be funded through the deficit, which I didn't run up by giving a massive tax break to the top 1%. Once things start to return to normal, I would bring the deficit down again by taxing the rich and reducing, if not eliminating, corporate welfare.
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Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 3rd August 2020 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:39 AM   #114
pgwenthold
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I won't quote squeegee's long post, but I will add "And start doing it early." There is no reason the government could not have started doing this back in February. It was clear there was going to be a problem.

anecdote: I went to the NP on March 1 with the flu. He asked a couple of questions to rule out covid, and said yep, doesn't sound like you have covid, but it's coming, make no mistake.

As I said, this was the local nurse practitioner on March 1, telling me that it was coming. Clearly there were those who knew well before that.

And they did nothing to prepare.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:42 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Korea is a crap comparison, completely different place, YOU moved the goal post, we would have had a mess regardless. The situation can be handled locally, and well in some cases, my state has done pretty well, but you arent caring about the pandemic, because, Orange Man bad, you have blinders on.
If Korea alone doesn't cut it for you, look at the charts for all countries. I think only Brazil gives the US a run for its money on how truly ghastly was the effed-up response. And both these nations have incompetent efftards at the top.

If your justification for the US' poor response is the composition of 50 States, then how do you account for Germany's success with a somewhat similarly decentralized Government?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:46 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I won't quote squeegee's long post, but I will add "And start doing it early." There is no reason the government could not have started doing this back in February. It was clear there was going to be a problem.

anecdote: I went to the NP on March 1 with the flu. He asked a couple of questions to rule out covid, and said yep, doesn't sound like you have covid, but it's coming, make no mistake.

As I said, this was the local nurse practitioner on March 1, telling me that it was coming. Clearly there were those who knew well before that.

And they did nothing to prepare.
It was worse than doing nothing.

Every country has contrarians and cranks that are opposing masks and other necessary countermeasures, but Trump elevated these arguments early on. Covid denial was the official party line for the critical early weeks, and Trump's leadership in this issue signaled to other Republican leaders, including governors and other local leaders, that taking a contrarian stance was encouraged.

Trump's decision to make public health best practices a partisan issue was disastrous.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:49 AM   #117
Lurch
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
But you dont offer a better plan, just lay blame. If you want to be better, you need a better alternative and you aren't offering one. You're playing politics, and are therefore part of the problem and in the way of a solution.
Why ask forumites here for a plan? The rest of the world has shown how to do it.

The problem in the US is that too many idiots are selfish and hung up on their free-dumb. It ain't *all* down to the 'leadership.'
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:54 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Why ask forumites here for a plan? The rest of the world has shown how to do it.

The problem in the US is that too many idiots are selfish and hung up on their free-dumb. It ain't *all* down to the 'leadership.'
To make the point, all some do is whine and blame storm, but have no alternative, just whining and blame storming.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:58 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It was worse than doing nothing.

Every country has contrarians and cranks that are opposing masks and other necessary countermeasures, but Trump elevated these arguments early on. Covid denial was the official party line for the critical early weeks, and Trump's leadership in this issue signaled to other Republican leaders, including governors and other local leaders, that taking a contrarian stance was encouraged.

Trump's decision to make public health best practices a partisan issue was disastrous.
Let's also note that Trump's idiots were seizing medical supplies to states & cities that needed them, they bought tests that turned out to be useless, and botched co-ordination at every level they were supposed to handle. Now we find out that what limited plans there were got hamstrung because Trump & Family wanted to hurt Democratic Governors.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:02 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
To make the point, all some do is whine and blame storm, but have no alternative, just whining and blame storming.
Plenty of ideas have been presented here. Many more plans were in place well before this even started. Whining that 'you're just trying to blame' is a poor smokescreen for the fact that the Executive Branch totally screwed the pooch on this.

Give it a rest already. You aren't even fooling yourself.
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