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Tags 2020 elections , George Conway , PACs , republican party , Rick Wilson , steve schmidt , The Lincoln Project

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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:06 AM   #121
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
To make the point, all some do is whine and blame storm, but have no alternative, just whining and blame storming.
And now that you've seen a response to your supposed challenge, you will admit that your attempt at making a point failed?

You remind me of those anti-vaxxers*** who used to always challenge people in Orac's blog with "I bet you don't have all your vaccines!" and then everyone would respond showing, in fact, yes. My kids are all up-to-date (including an 11 yo boy with HPV vaccine) and I even got my 2 doses of Shingrix last summer.

(comparison to anti-vaxxers is not by coincidence)
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:09 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Okay - use the Global Health Security and Biodefense unit, which I wouldn't have disbanded, to advise and coordinate the response, as well as following the playbook that had been created by the previous administration, and taking advice from the CDC, WHO, etc.

Observe what was happening - and what was working - in other countries and lock down early and hard. Couch it in terms of patriotism and honour, to get the more unwilling on board. Make it clear that the faster and more thoroughly lockdown happens, the quicker it can be lifted and people can get back to ordinary lives.

Ensure clear and constant lines of communication with foreign countries, as well as coordinating safe means of the trade of vital goods.

Stockpile PPE and testing kits, distributing them widely across the states, using federal funds. Ensure that there are enough for hospitals, key workers, care home staff, etc.

Institute a 14-day quarantine period for everybody entering the country.

Train and employ a large number of contact tracers so that outbreaks can quickly be quashed.

Provide extra funds for research. Set up a committee to coordinate that research with the research being done in other countries, if necessary.

Set up a furlough scheme so that people can remain employed and don't lose too much money while locked down. Have a similar scheme for people who are self-employed. Introduce universal basic income to ensure that nobody is left behind.

Provide funds and/or equipment to families and schools so that everybody has equal access to online learning.

Provide additional funds for people engaged in social care to ensure that vulnerable people are not harmed by the lockdown.

Provide funds to local authorities to partner with hotels and hostels to house the homeless during the crisis. Set up a committee to formulate and enact a plan to prevent the homeless being thrown out on the street again once the crisis is over.

Mandate mask-wearing in public spaces for those key workers who cannot stay home, and for those who need to leave the house for legitimate reasons. Impose standards for people who seek to sell masks, and make information about how to make your own freely and easily available.

Under the guidance of experts, set out clear criteria which have to be met before lockdown can be eased. Have a clear, public plan for what will happen, when, and under what conditions.

Hold regular briefings to keep the public informed, as well as using social media. For very important developments, also have text messages sent to everybody, as well as using television and radio ads.

This could be funded through the deficit, which I didn't run up by giving a massive tax break to the top 1%. Once things start to return to normal, I would bring the deficit down again by taxing the rich and reducing, if not eliminating, corporate welfare.
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
To make the point, all some do is whine and blame storm, but have no alternative, just whining and blame storming.


sO MuCh wHiNiNg! [/FakeTrump]
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:10 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
To make the point, all some do is whine and blame storm, but have no alternative, just whining and blame storming.
I suppose you do more than just discuss issues on this forum?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:13 AM   #124
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:21 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And now that you've seen a response to your supposed challenge, you will admit that your attempt at making a point failed?

You remind me of those anti-vaxxers*** who used to always challenge people in Orac's blog with "I bet you don't have all your vaccines!" and then everyone would respond showing, in fact, yes. My kids are all up-to-date (including an 11 yo boy with HPV vaccine) and I even got my 2 doses of Shingrix last summer.

(comparison to anti-vaxxers is not by coincidence)
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:39 AM   #126
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none.
You didn't read squeegee's post and followups?

I've said it before, trumpers live in alternate reality.

You might want to insist that "it wouldn't work" but that is not the same as not having a plan.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:39 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
Right. We shouldn't hold the president of the United States to the same standards as random people on an obscure backwater message board. After all, if an out of work car mechanic is Sheboygan doesn't have a detailed plan to address the pandemic then how could the head of the federal ******* government, with access to all its resources and experts, ever hope come up with one, either?

Again, when my plane crashes on landing because Race Bannon forgot to drop the landing gear I'm going to give myself full liberty to criticize his ass even though my flying experience consists of nothing more than a lot of hours behind the stick with Descent : Freespace 1 and 2.

******* blame storm indeed.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:58 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
Proving again that Denial is not just a river in Africa.

Squeegee and I both offered solutions and you ignored them. His was very thorough.

But whether you like it or not, evaluating the success and assigning responsibility is important. In case you are unaware, the public has the opportunity to decide whether to continue with our present leadership or choose someone else to clean up the mess.

You can argue that the Trump administration's response to the COVID virus was timely and
effective. That no one could have done better.

But the facts belie that. Our President's response was not only not timely, it was pathetic and WRONG! Months went by when every minute counted. A total absence of International coordination. And speaking of playing the blame game, Trump decides to abandon the WHO during a pandemic. WTF!!? He has atracked our own CDC over and over. He promoted and still promotes quack cures. He said multiple times that COVID would just go away. He encouraged States to reopen against the CDC's recommendations leading to huge surges in Texas, Florida and other Red States

What part of this demonstrates competence and steady leadership to you?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:07 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
It is pretty obvious you won't accept anything anyone said in response.

And besides, it is red herring. I do not have to come up with my own plan. I can criticize complete utter failfest of Trump's response to COVID-19 either way.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:08 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
I too recommend Squeegee’s response. It is excellent. But if you intended to forward it to Trump you probably need a much shorter version. In which case I offer:

Do exactly what other countries have done that have been successful in containing the covid-19 outbreak.

There are many of them. If that had been done at the beginning our infection rate (and deaths) would now be a small fraction of what they are rather than increasing in much of the country. We would now be able to gradually reopen the economy safely rather than pretending everything is great and prematurely loosening crucial safeguards so that we are now doomed to the worse case scenario: more disease and more economic pain.

It’s not too late and it doesn’t need to be invented from scratch: we know exactly what it takes from other countries! Trump has not only failed to do the necessary steps but he has repeatedly undercut those attempting to implement them.

Maybe the most concise recommendation to Trump would be: step aside, stop screwing up, and stop working against those who know what they are doing.

Last edited by Giordano; 3rd August 2020 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:13 AM   #131
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Is it just me, or are Dear Leader fanbois not even trying anymore?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:22 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is it just me, or are Dear Leader fanbois not even trying anymore?
Its all attempts of some kind of pwnage with diminishing returns these days.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is it just me, or are Dear Leader fanbois not even trying anymore?
They have become a whole lot less active, and a whole lot less vocal recently.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Okay - (sic)
Also, don't decide to do nothing because the virus will mostly kill liberals in blue states.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:29 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Maybe the most concise recommendation to Trump would be: step aside, stop screwing up, and stop working against those who know what they are doing.
I wouldn't even say that. I would say, 1) acknowledge the problem and 2) plan to solve it.

The approach from the beginning has been to deny, deny and deny. As the situation has evolved, they have been drug along having to respond, but still it has been deny, deny, deny.

"Hoping it goes away on its own" is not a plan. Hoarding PPE is not a plan. Equiping hospitals with ventilators is not a plan. Even making tests available is not a plan to solve anything. It's part of the process, but testing in itself won't fix it. You need to have a plan for what to do with information.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:31 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is it just me, or are Dear Leader fanbois not even trying anymore?
Not a fanboi, just amused by the tunnel vision most of you have with him. Its far too easy to take any subject on this forum and ORANGE MAN BAD! Even if it had nothing to do with the subject.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:36 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not a fanboi, just amused by the tunnel vision most of you have with him. Its far too easy to take any subject on this forum and ORANGE MAN BAD! Even if it had nothing to do with the subject.
How about you comment on the solutions provided?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:40 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Its all attempts of some kind of pwnage with diminishing returns these days.
He did succeed in derailing this thread, though. He had to try various angles to finally get people to really bite, but in the end he got the forumites to spend 1Ĺ pages talking about responses to the pandemic, and how criticizing Trump isn't 'playing the blame game', only for him to declare victory anyway. Hence what I said about ignore lists.

For fairness' sake, I'm not sure how much more there was to say about the Lincoln Project, but I'm going with Troll Successful.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:42 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not a fanboi, just amused by the tunnel vision most of you have with him. Its far too easy to take any subject on this forum and ORANGE MAN BAD! Even if it had nothing to do with the subject.
Seems right on topic to me. And you now have some good answers to your question as to what Trump should be doing about the covid-19 epidemic. That’s what is so educational about this forum!
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:47 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Its far too easy to take any subject on this forum and ORANGE MAN BAD!
This topic IS bout the bad orange man. The whole point of the Lincoln Project is to fight him.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:48 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
He did succeed in derailing this thread, though. He had to try various angles to finally get people to really bite, but in the end he got the forumites to spend 1Ĺ pages talking about responses to the pandemic, and how criticizing Trump isn't 'playing the blame game', only for him to declare victory anyway. Hence what I said about ignore lists.

For fairness' sake, I'm not sure how much more there was to say about the Lincoln Project, but I'm going with Troll Successful.
Recognized but I felt it was fun pinning him down when he refused to admit that his question had been answered.

Bad attempts at pwnage can prove embarrassing to the initiator.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:54 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
South Korea is irrelevant, Apple and Orange. The US is a huge place with 300 million people in 50 states, the situation was doomed to be more complicated, than a smaller place with a homogenius population. That is a moved goal post.

Yes, trump sucks, but so do the establishment democrats, and by staying home thinking Hillary was a shoe in, many of those democrats are responsible for the Orange man being there. Own it.
Nonsense. Whatever one thinks of the Dems, and personally I'm not impressed, the only responsibility for what Trump does lies with Trump and his supporters.

You can't rob a bank and say "Hey, it's the responsibility of those who didn't stop me!"

Trump, the GOP, and their voters must answer for what they have brought on your country, period.

Hans
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:56 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Bad attempts at pwnage can prove embarrassing to the initiator.

Anyone still shilling for Trump at this point is beyond embarrassment. They're out there right now, shirt-cocking it with a lit roman candle shoved up their ass.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:11 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I won't quote squeegee's long post, but I will add "And start doing it early."
Yes, I meant for that to be implied.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:13 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nothing failed. I offered a challenge to provide a better plan, you admitted you have none. If anyone failed, it's the blame storm.
The US currently ranks 10th in the world in deaths per million. Who, in your opinion, is to blame for that?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:16 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This topic IS bout the bad orange man. The whole point of the Lincoln Project is to fight him.
Rocky's responses are as bad as Trump's. It's basically the whine, "why is everyone picking on me".

I'm actually happy about his attempt to derail. It allows us to point out Trump's failures in detail. It's not just as Rocky has said "Orange man bad". No it's about the importance of a timely response to a crisis. It's about listening to more knowledgeable and smarter people. It's about empathy for others. It's about setting a positive example.

There is a reason that so many former Republicans have jumped ship and are actively working to defeat a Republican President. When the last 3 Republican nominees for President despises or despised the current Republican president it's not because the current President is "too conservative".
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:27 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Its far too easy to take any subject on this forum and ORANGE MAN BAD! Even if it had nothing to do with the subject.
What's the difficulty rating for the response "you just said Orange Man Bad"?

And how does saying so mean that whatever he's done that's being called bad was not bad (every single time)?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 01:12 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Recognized but I felt it was fun pinning him down when he refused to admit that his question had been answered.

Bad attempts at pwnage can prove embarrassing to the initiator.
Yes, it's the same response you get from CTers when you debunk their claims, they arbitrarily decide your response doesn't count because they can't refute it, and they go on to spam 'still waiting for counter-evidence to x' for half a dozen more posts .

And yes, I admit Squeegee's reply went a long way towards making the derail worthwhile to me.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 01:47 PM   #148
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:15 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is it just me, or are Dear Leader fanbois not even trying anymore?
That's a distinct possibility.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:49 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Conservatives are triggered by fear, and in fact feeling fear tends to make people more conservative in their political outlook. Liberals are inspired by confidence and feeling confident tends to make people more liberal in their political outlook.

It may be possible to turn many more conservatives to the Democrats by painting Republicans as trying to change the US into something scary and different, but this would be at the expense of rallying their own base so itís a delicate balancing act at best.
Absolutely. Conservatism is fear based: fear of change, fear of different, fear of others. That's a huge part of Trump's appeal to his base and why his message is so anti-immigrant, anti-China, anti-Democrat, etc. It's all these 'others' are out to get you.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:56 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
In dealing with trolls, I have found facts to be useless, but ignore lists to be indispensable.
Ditto
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Old 4th August 2020, 08:05 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Rocky's responses are as bad as Trump's. It's basically the whine, "why is everyone picking on me".

I'm actually happy about his attempt to derail. It allows us to point out Trump's failures in detail. It's not just as Rocky has said "Orange man bad". No it's about the importance of a timely response to a crisis. It's about listening to more knowledgeable and smarter people. It's about empathy for others. It's about setting a positive example.


The best counter-example to this whole "You're just complaining about the pandemic response because you hate Trump!" is Canada's reactions to Doug Ford.

For those who don't know, Doug Ford is the current Premier of Ontario, brother to the late drug-addled mayor of Toronto Rob Ford, whom you are more likely to have heard about. DF, when he was elected as Premier, was described as the "Canadian Donald Trump", and was, in my opinion, the least qualified candidate for high office I've ever seen in Canada. And yet, he has been praised from all sides of the political debate for his handling of the pandemic, largely because he didn't follow in Trump's footsteps. He mostly put aside partisan ideology, avoided conflict with the federal government (with whom he largely disagrees about everything), listened to his medical advisors, and called the few anti-lockdown protestor idiots we had "a bunch of yahoos". That is, he displayed actual leadership of the exact sort we needed for this crisis.

So what's more likely: that Canadians are so much better at putting aside partisan politics, and recognizing DF's decent leadership, or that Trump is a **** up?
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Old 4th August 2020, 08:21 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The best counter-example to this whole "You're just complaining about the pandemic response because you hate Trump!" is Canada's reactions to Doug Ford.

For those who don't know, Doug Ford is the current Premier of Ontario, brother to the late drug-addled mayor of Toronto Rob Ford, whom you are more likely to have heard about. DF, when he was elected as Premier, was described as the "Canadian Donald Trump", and was, in my opinion, the least qualified candidate for high office I've ever seen in Canada. And yet, he has been praised from all sides of the political debate for his handling of the pandemic, largely because he didn't follow in Trump's footsteps. He mostly put aside partisan ideology, avoided conflict with the federal government (with whom he largely disagrees about everything), listened to his medical advisors, and called the few anti-lockdown protestor idiots we had "a bunch of yahoos". That is, he displayed actual leadership of the exact sort we needed for this crisis.

So what's more likely: that Canadians are so much better at putting aside partisan politics, and recognizing DF's decent leadership, or that Trump is a **** up?
The irony of many responses here are, if you're so dead set on getting rid of Trump you should at last cooperate in a counter message with other groups, you can hash it out with them later, but that seems to be asking too much.
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Old 4th August 2020, 10:30 AM   #154
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rockysmith76, the US currently ranks 10th in the world in deaths per million. Who, in your opinion, is to blame for that?
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Old 4th August 2020, 10:41 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
rockysmith76, the US currently ranks 10th in the world in deaths per million. Who, in your opinion, is to blame for that?
That has absolutely nothing to do with my last post.
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Old 4th August 2020, 10:56 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
That has absolutely nothing to do with my last post.
Well, you didn't reply when it was relevant to what you'd just said, so I assumed you must have accidentally missed it. Feel free to answer. There's no rule that says you can only answer questions about things you have spoken about within the last few hours.
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Old 4th August 2020, 10:59 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
That has absolutely nothing to do with my last post.
It certainly addresses your earlier posts. You seem to think that Trump's response to the pandemic is fine.
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:23 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The irony of many responses here are, if you're so dead set on getting rid of Trump you should at last cooperate in a counter message with other groups, you can hash it out with them later, but that seems to be asking too much.
Huh? What the hell are you talking about. Why don't you address the points?

Do you think Americans should take Hydroxychloroquine? Trump continues to promote its use despite that the FDA, the WHO, the CDC and other health organisations have warned against it. Do you think under those circumstances it is right for POTUS to tell people they should be?

Do you think the administration should have a plan to protect Americans from COVID?
Do you think they should have a plan to deal with the economic hardship?

Do you know how many times Trump has told the country that COVID is under control? He said it the day after the first person in the US was diagnosed with it. That was before there was a single death. Here we are closing in on 200,000 deaths and Trump said it again. This despite there is no evidence to support this.

Don't you think it robs the President of credibility when everything he says is a lie? Do you think the people should trust Trump?
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Last edited by acbytesla; 4th August 2020 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The irony of many responses here are, if you're so dead set on getting rid of Trump you should at last cooperate in a counter message with other groups, you can hash it out with them later, but that seems to be asking too much.
There are words here, but no sense to them whatsoever.
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:44 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The irony of many responses here are, if you're so dead set on getting rid of Trump you should at last cooperate in a counter message with other groups, you can hash it out with them later, but that seems to be asking too much.
You should be dead-set in getting rid of Trump, too. It's people like you he harms.
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