What the **** is Wrong with American Cops? - Page 3

Steve · 12th August 2020, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

There was a recent case here where the police dog injured someone. The police report says that the behavior of the police was consistent with police department policies.

The response from the community was, if that is consistent with policy, then the policy needs to be changed.

Cops tend to support policies that get them off the hook when they engage in “a bit of the old ultraviolence”. (Thank you, Anthony Burgess, for that word and quote).

Distracted1 · 12th August 2020, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.

Seems ridiculous, right?
The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book.
Think that turns out better?

Distracted1 · 12th August 2020, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Yes, I think the police included, or added, those things to their procedures book as the law evolved. I also think that police forces establish their own procedures, using current law, for how they expect arrests to be conducted. The point that you seem to be missing is that, just because arrest procedures are carried out in a lawful manner, it does not always make them the appropriate thing to do.

They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did.
The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit.

Steve · 12th August 2020, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did.
The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit.

I did not say otherwise.

Steve · 12th August 2020, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Seems ridiculous, right?
The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book.
Think that turns out better?

The alternative actually is to create different policies for dealing with children.

Steve · 12th August 2020, 04:32 PM

Dupe.

Minoosh · 12th August 2020, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It isn't at the expense of addicted customers. Getting high is great. People like it. The high from drugs is a benefit.

People get benefits and costs wrong all the time. Getting high is a benefit. Having a job is a cost

Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly.

Craig4 · 13th August 2020, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.

Some books should be burnt.

SuburbanTurkey · 13th August 2020, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.

The department is being sued. The chief isn't going to admit fault no matter what he thinks.

Cops are infamous for circling the wagons to protect their own. I'm curious what the Chief might have said if the officer had asked him prior to arresting a 8 year old for felony battery.

rockysmith76 · 13th August 2020, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly.

there are no benefits to illegal drugs.

Distracted1 · 13th August 2020, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

there are no benefits to illegal drugs.

What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)?

Steve · 13th August 2020, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)?

And cannabis.

Benefits of legal drugs:
- people don’t become criminals because of use
- quality control
- can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers

catsmate · 13th August 2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

"I can't breathe" lol

Yes, someone being asphyxiated is so amusing.

catsmate · 13th August 2020, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by elgarak

From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer.

Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year).

Two years at the training college, then a year in placements, then back to college.

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Still doesn't stop the claims...

Though it may help them kill one-twentieth as many people.

catsmate · 13th August 2020, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That’s part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs won’t make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization won’t change that. I can’t say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so.

And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.

Suddenly · 13th August 2020, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

And cannabis.

Benefits of legal drugs:
- people don’t become criminals because of use
- quality control
- can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers

There is also that people like these things. If that is taken out of the equation there are all sorts of things bad for us that badly flunk any cost/benefit analysis.

Soft drinks. The NFL. Reality television. Pop Tarts.

SuburbanTurkey · 13th August 2020, 01:00 PM

If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding.

This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause.

This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed)

Quote:

“If you smelled [marijuana] in a car, you could search a car,” Kennedy said. “When it became decriminalized, you couldn’t do that.”

https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana

The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops.

ponderingturtle · 13th August 2020, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding.

This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause.

This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed)

https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana

The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops.

Also gives them good things to keep on hand to plant for some juicy overtime.

rockinkt · 13th August 2020, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.

Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/legal-ca...tcan-1.1195761

pgwenthold · 13th August 2020, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed.

But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.

rockinkt · 13th August 2020, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.

23 Legal shops total. The rest are illegal. Most of the legal shops are less than a year old.

The funding of many of the legal shops has so far been subsidized from the years of illegal business they have done openly with no tax on their illegal supplies of weed. My sources suggest that a lot of the ongoing sales are also a way to wash cash from the illegal wholesale of their illegal cannabis grow-ops.

Also, the huge amount of money raised by the wildly speculative stock market in many cannabis companies has given them a huge cash reserve to fund losses for a long time hoping for something to change in their retail outlets.

Edited to add: I am in favor of legalization of most drugs that are illegal now. I just think that Canada has really made a mistake trying to cash in on a perceived potential windfall through taxation. Reducing police costs and harm reduction is enough to balance the books heavily in favor of legalization. IMHO.
(Former cop speaking)

rockinkt · 13th August 2020, 04:02 PM

duplicate post

Ziggurat · 13th August 2020, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.

If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs.

It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.

Steve · 13th August 2020, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs.

It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.

The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible.

And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country.

rockinkt · 13th August 2020, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible.

And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country.

Nonsense! You used Vancouver as an example. Your ~~facts~~ exaggerations were wrong. I posted the facts regarding numbers. My information is obtained by perusing information from a variety of public and private sources. My link was from a reputable source. Here are some more:

Deloitte said Canada’s legal cannabis industry would grow to as much as $4.34 billion in the first year of legalization, and that the majority of purchases would be made through the legal market rather than illicit sources. However, earlier StatsCan data shows that the illicit market still represents between 70 and 80 per cent of all cannabis sales in the first year of legalization.
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/pot-sale...tion-1.1361025

https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magaz...kets-in-chaos/

Now it is your turn to come up with evidence to back your claims. So far you have nothing.

arthwollipot · 17th August 2020, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.

Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.

Darat · 17th August 2020, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.

No it's a job for armed teachers!

Blue Mountain · 17th August 2020, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.

Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.

Suddenly · 17th August 2020, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.

Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process.

The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out.

This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process.

rockinkt · 18th August 2020, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process.

The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out.

This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process.

They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed.
Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn.

RedStapler · 18th August 2020, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed.
Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn.

Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs).

SuburbanTurkey · 18th August 2020, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.

Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.

rockinkt · 18th August 2020, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs).

Your assumption that this kid is from a poor family or all "problem" children are from poor families is very telling.

deadrose · 18th August 2020, 04:22 PM

And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control *because* they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?

rockinkt · 18th August 2020, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by deadrose

And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control *because* they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?

And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school?

Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".

rockinkt · 18th August 2020, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.

Where in the wide world of sports did you come up with the absurd notion that the word "assault" means "crime"?
If you don't know the meaning of a word maybe you should try and look it up on Google.

Steve · 18th August 2020, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school?

Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".

Yup. Call the cops to cuff the little bugger. Obviously no other way to handle it in the good ol' USA.

arthwollipot · 18th August 2020, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.

Which is why it's a problem for a trained social worker or counsellor, not an armed cop.

Myriad · 18th August 2020, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Where in the wide world of sports did you come up with the absurd notion that the word "assault" means "crime"?
If you don't know the meaning of a word maybe you should try and look it up on Google.

While we're looking up words, check out what "hogtie" actually means. I honestly thought your earlier post was sarcasm, because you said to "gently and safely hogtie" misbehaving kids. I suppose if that doesn't correct the issue, a mild flogging, then a moderate beheading, would be called for.

RedStapler · 18th August 2020, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Your assumption that this kid is from a poor family or all "problem" children are from poor families is very telling.

Your willingness to fling a strawman at me is very telling

12th August 2020, 02:00 PM	#81
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by pgwenthold There was a recent case here where the police dog injured someone. The police report says that the behavior of the police was consistent with police department policies. The response from the community was, if that is consistent with policy, then the policy needs to be changed. Cops tend to support policies that get them off the hook when they engage in “a bit of the old ultraviolence”. (Thank you, Anthony Burgess, for that word and quote).
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

12th August 2020, 03:29 PM	#82
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,628	Originally Posted by Steve Chief says they did it right. Followed the book. Seems ridiculous, right? The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book. Think that turns out better?
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

12th August 2020, 03:33 PM	#83
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,628	Originally Posted by Steve Yes, I think the police included, or added, those things to their procedures book as the law evolved. I also think that police forces establish their own procedures, using current law, for how they expect arrests to be conducted. The point that you seem to be missing is that, just because arrest procedures are carried out in a lawful manner, it does not always make them the appropriate thing to do. They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did. The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

12th August 2020, 04:29 PM	#84
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by Distracted1 They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did. The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit. I did not say otherwise.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

12th August 2020, 04:30 PM	#85
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Seems ridiculous, right? The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book. Think that turns out better? The alternative actually is to create different policies for dealing with children.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

12th August 2020, 04:32 PM	#86
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Dupe.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

12th August 2020, 05:18 PM	#87
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,344	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It isn't at the expense of addicted customers. Getting high is great. People like it. The high from drugs is a benefit. People get benefits and costs wrong all the time. Getting high is a benefit. Having a job is a cost Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly.

13th August 2020, 12:32 AM	#88
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,917	Originally Posted by Steve Chief says they did it right. Followed the book. Some books should be burnt.

13th August 2020, 04:15 AM	#89
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,601	Originally Posted by Steve Chief says they did it right. Followed the book. The department is being sued. The chief isn't going to admit fault no matter what he thinks. Cops are infamous for circling the wagons to protect their own. I'm curious what the Chief might have said if the officer had asked him prior to arresting a 8 year old for felony battery.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

13th August 2020, 04:52 AM	#90
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by Minoosh Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly. there are no benefits to illegal drugs.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

13th August 2020, 05:38 AM	#91
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,628	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 there are no benefits to illegal drugs. What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)?
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

13th August 2020, 05:46 AM	#92
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by Distracted1 What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)? And cannabis. Benefits of legal drugs: - people don’t become criminals because of use - quality control - can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

13th August 2020, 10:48 AM	#93
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,389	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy "I can't breathe" lol Yes, someone being asphyxiated is so amusing.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

13th August 2020, 10:55 AM	#94
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,389	Originally Posted by elgarak From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer. Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year). Two years at the training college, then a year in placements, then back to college. Originally Posted by rockinkt Still doesn't stop the claims... Though it may help them kill one-twentieth as many people.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

13th August 2020, 10:59 AM	#95
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,389	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That’s part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs won’t make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization won’t change that. I can’t say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so. And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime. It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

13th August 2020, 12:27 PM	#96
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,121	Originally Posted by Steve And cannabis. Benefits of legal drugs: - people don’t become criminals because of use - quality control - can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers There is also that people like these things. If that is taken out of the equation there are all sorts of things bad for us that badly flunk any cost/benefit analysis. Soft drinks. The NFL. Reality television. Pop Tarts.

13th August 2020, 01:00 PM	#97
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,601	If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding. This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause. This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed) Quote: “If you smelled [marijuana] in a car, you could search a car,” Kennedy said. “When it became decriminalized, you couldn’t do that.” https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 13th August 2020 at 01:01 PM.

13th August 2020, 01:02 PM	#98
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,819	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding. This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause. This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed) https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops. Also gives them good things to keep on hand to plant for some juicy overtime.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

13th August 2020, 01:07 PM	#99
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by catsmate And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime. It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense. Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/legal-ca...tcan-1.1195761
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 01:09 PM. Reason: edited to add link

13th August 2020, 02:50 PM	#100
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,229	Originally Posted by rockinkt Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed. But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

13th August 2020, 03:56 PM	#101
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by pgwenthold But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money. 23 Legal shops total. The rest are illegal. Most of the legal shops are less than a year old. The funding of many of the legal shops has so far been subsidized from the years of illegal business they have done openly with no tax on their illegal supplies of weed. My sources suggest that a lot of the ongoing sales are also a way to wash cash from the illegal wholesale of their illegal cannabis grow-ops. Also, the huge amount of money raised by the wildly speculative stock market in many cannabis companies has given them a huge cash reserve to fund losses for a long time hoping for something to change in their retail outlets. Edited to add: I am in favor of legalization of most drugs that are illegal now. I just think that Canada has really made a mistake trying to cash in on a perceived potential windfall through taxation. Reducing police costs and harm reduction is enough to balance the books heavily in favor of legalization. IMHO. (Former cop speaking)
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 04:04 PM. Reason: typo, see edit

13th August 2020, 04:02 PM	#102
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	duplicate post
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

13th August 2020, 05:19 PM	#103
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,647	Originally Posted by catsmate And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime. It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense. If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs. It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

13th August 2020, 05:47 PM	#104
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by Ziggurat If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs. It's almost as if you're spouting straw men. The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible. And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

13th August 2020, 08:09 PM	#105
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by Steve The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible. And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country. Nonsense! You used Vancouver as an example. Your ~~facts~~ exaggerations were wrong. I posted the facts regarding numbers. My information is obtained by perusing information from a variety of public and private sources. My link was from a reputable source. Here are some more: Deloitte said Canada’s legal cannabis industry would grow to as much as $4.34 billion in the first year of legalization, and that the majority of purchases would be made through the legal market rather than illicit sources. However, earlier StatsCan data shows that the illicit market still represents between 70 and 80 per cent of all cannabis sales in the first year of legalization. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/pot-sale...tion-1.1361025 https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magaz...kets-in-chaos/ Now it is your turn to come up with evidence to back your claims. So far you have nothing.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 08:12 PM.

17th August 2020, 01:18 AM	#106
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,218	Originally Posted by Steve Chief says they did it right. Followed the book. Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

17th August 2020, 03:19 AM	#107
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,915	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police. No it's a job for armed teachers!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th August 2020, 10:50 AM	#108
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,528	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police. Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

17th August 2020, 02:20 PM	#109
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,121	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer. Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process. The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out. This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process.

18th August 2020, 01:23 AM	#110
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by Suddenly Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process. The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out. This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process. They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed. Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

18th August 2020, 01:45 AM	#111
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by rockinkt They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed. Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn. Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs).
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839

18th August 2020, 04:29 AM	#112
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,601	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer. Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal. An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

18th August 2020, 03:46 PM	#113
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by RedStapler Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs). Your assumption that this kid is from a poor family or all "problem" children are from poor families is very telling.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

18th August 2020, 04:22 PM	#114
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,582	And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control because they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?

18th August 2020, 05:20 PM	#115
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	Originally Posted by deadrose And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control because they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out? And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school? Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,123	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*