IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

Reply
Old 11th November 2020, 04:07 PM   #121
DaveBB
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
Arline Kercher Died

A month or so ago I took the 25 minute train journey from my local rural station to East Croydon, then bicycled the 3 miles or so to Croydon Mitcham Road Cemetery to see for myself whether Arline Kercher had died and was buried next to Meredith as the TJMK poster had stated. And call it what you will, the twice daily correct broken sweep hand clock or whatever, that is indeed the case. The obviously recently prepared grave bears a temporary wooden cross marker with death date of 11 June 2020 at age 74. The only thing amiss is her name misspelled "Arlene" which hopefully will be corrected on the permanent stone. And while yes, I have the photo "receipts" on my mobile to bear me out, I don't feel minded to post them feeling it would be exploitative, certainly invasive of the family's privacy. As to why her passing went unnoticed unlike John Kercher, I can only assume it was the more public manner of his sudden death on the street which prompted a police inquiry.
DaveBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 04:17 PM   #122
DaveBB
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
Arline Kercher Died

Deleted duplicate

Last edited by DaveBB; 11th November 2020 at 04:54 PM.
DaveBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 07:11 PM   #123
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
A month or so ago I took the 25 minute train journey from my local rural station to East Croydon, then bicycled the 3 miles or so to Croydon Mitcham Road Cemetery to see for myself whether Arline Kercher had died and was buried next to Meredith as the TJMK poster had stated. And call it what you will, the twice daily correct broken sweep hand clock or whatever, that is indeed the case. The obviously recently prepared grave bears a temporary wooden cross marker with death date of 11 June 2020 at age 74. The only thing amiss is her name misspelled "Arlene" which hopefully will be corrected on the permanent stone. And while yes, I have the photo "receipts" on my mobile to bear me out, I don't feel minded to post them feeling it would be exploitative, certainly invasive of the family's privacy. As to why her passing went unnoticed unlike John Kercher, I can only assume it was the more public manner of his sudden death on the street which prompted a police inquiry.
I see you joined Nov 5. Forgive me if I take your post with a grain of salt. It is not above certain people to join under a false name and post bogus info and I find it odd that someone should find this thread on a subject long out of the public eye and post this info.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 07:49 PM   #124
AnimalFriendly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 230
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
it would be exploitative, certainly invasive of the family's privacy.
How could posting a picture of a wooden cross marker be exploitative or invasive of the family's privacy? That does not make sense.

Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
as to why her passing went unnoticed unlike John Kercher, I can only assume it was the more public manner of his sudden death on the street which prompted a police inquiry.
This doesn't make much sense to me either in that, as much as the entire Kercher family has been in the U.K. news since 2007, it's hard to believe at least one of the tabloids would not have learned of Arline Kercher's death and reported it by now. Regardless of the manner of death.
AnimalFriendly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:24 AM   #125
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,706
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When I was researching my ancestors in Northumbria (North East England) I came across quite a few witchcraft trials. None of them were to do with 'confession' and 'being tortured to confess'; they were almost all to do with accusations by neighbours about mysterious illnesses and happenings, which they ascribed to the accused putting curses on them. In English common law, for something to be a crime you need someone who claims to have suffered a tort.
For once I agree with you!
Planigale is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 06:42 AM   #126
DaveBB
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
All right, as a newbie I lack the privilege of posting urls here. If someone here can provide an email or other contact detail, I’ll send the 2 pics I referred to above.
DaveBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 08:56 AM   #127
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
All right, as a newbie I lack the privilege of posting urls here. If someone here can provide an email or other contact detail, I’ll send the 2 pics I referred to above.
Don't worry about it. Thanks for the info.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:16 AM   #128
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I sent an email to Mitcham Rd Cemetery yesterday. This morning I received a reply confirming that Arline Kercher was buried there on June 11 this year. So I was wrong. See? It's not so hard to admit and the world did not come crashing down. I don't know why that is so hard for some people. When my friend called and she was told there was so record of Arline being buried there, perhaps the records on the computer had not been updated yet or perhaps the first name being misspelled caused the error.

Quote:
Dear Stacy

Thanks for your email. We can confirm that the late Arlene Kercher was buried in grave number 14119/Y4 in Mitcham Road cemetery.

Kind regards

Bereavement Services
Residents and Gateway
Croydon Cemeteries &
Crematorium Office
Mitcham Road
Croydon, CR9 3AT
I still find in incredible that not a single report of her death was reported in the media.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 12th November 2020 at 10:18 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:26 AM   #129
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
DaveBB, my suspicions were based on past experiences of trolls (sock puppets) who join groups for the express purpose of posting false information then are never seen again. My apologies. Welcome to the group.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:39 AM   #130
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
DaveBB, my suspicions were based on past experiences of trolls (sock puppets) who join groups for the express purpose of posting false information then are never seen again. My apologies. Welcome to the group.
Once again, the difference between the two "sides" in this sometimes inflamed on-line debate is revealed.

I only know of one "side" who's ever admitted to being wrong, and (indeed) taking the lead in proving themselves wrong.

With evidence.

Why is that so hard for some?

Anyway, kudos, StacyHS.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:51 PM   #131
Numbers
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,403
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
All right, as a newbie I lack the privilege of posting urls here. If someone here can provide an email or other contact detail, I’ll send the 2 pics I referred to above.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I sent an email to Mitcham Rd Cemetery yesterday. This morning I received a reply confirming that Arline Kercher was buried there on June 11 this year. So I was wrong. See? It's not so hard to admit and the world did not come crashing down. I don't know why that is so hard for some people. When my friend called and she was told there was so record of Arline being buried there, perhaps the records on the computer had not been updated yet or perhaps the first name being misspelled caused the error.



I still find in incredible that not a single report of her death was reported in the media.
DaveBB, thanks for your posts correcting the wrong suspicions on the claim of the death of Arline Kercher.

Stacyhs, thanks for providing additional confirmation.

I had wrongfully suspected that the claim of Arline Kercher's death was untrue, because the the claim originated on a site known for misinformation and it was not accompanied by any confirmation.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:59 PM   #132
Welshman
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nonsense. The Italian judicial system bends over backwards for defendants. They are entitled to two automatic appeals, one to the Supreme Court. The average UK convict can only get an appeal with High Court consent and as for getting to the Supreme Court: no way José! Maybe one every five years. The State vs Knox/Sollecito trial was extremely fair and went on throughout Bongiorno's pregnancy and maternity leave. A UK court would have no patience with that and would insist on a replacement barrister. Sollecito was able to call a child kidnapper/murderer and an incarcerated Mafia criminal as his star witnesses. Absolute rubbish that the trial was unfair in any way whatsoever.
The prosecution were allowed as per the links below to commit numerous abuses such as denying access to lawyers, not taping the interrogations, lying to Amanda she had HIV, destroying evidence, feeding false information to the media, suppressing evidence and committing perjury in court. Amanda was convicted of calunnia on the basis of an illegal interrogation. Amanda and Raffaele had to wait a year before trial and the Massei trial lasted a year. The Italian justice system moves at a snails’ pace. Defence requests were turned down. Amanda was charged with calunnia while witnesses who provided false testimony were not charged. Amanda was charged for speaking out against abuse suffered in the interrogation.
In view of the brutal treatment Amanda and Raffaele received under this system, can Vixen explain how exactly does the Italian Justice System bend over for backwards for defendants.

If the Italian Justice System is fair, can Vixen explain the problems highlighted in the below link
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Italianjustice.html

Police prosecution/misconduct

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contam...bwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...ry-corruption/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-...irs-apartment/
https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com/...ele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post11071314
https://amandaknoxauguriesofinnocenc...om/2014/06/11/

Evidence used against Amanda and Raffaele

A knife with the following characteristics

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Luminol Footprints with the following characteristics

All footprints were negative for TMB which is highly sensitive and can detect as few as five red blood cells
None of the luminol prints contained Meredith’s DNA which should have existed if they had been made in Meredith’s blood.
None of the prints were in Meredith’s room
None of the prints showed blood visible to the naked eye
Two of the prints were shapeless blobs which were impossible to determine who they belonged to

A bra clasp with the following characteristics

Not collected for six weeks
The crime scene had been trashed by the time the clasp was discovered
The claps was dirty and damaged by the time it was discovered
Stefanoni didn’t want the claps tested and allowed it to rust
There were other profiles on the clasp which supported contamination

The witness testimony had credibility

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...mised-witness/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/marco-quintavalle/
Welshman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 03:24 PM   #133
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Once again, the difference between the two "sides" in this sometimes inflamed on-line debate is revealed.

I only know of one "side" who's ever admitted to being wrong, and (indeed) taking the lead in proving themselves wrong.

With evidence.

Why is that so hard for some?

Anyway, kudos, StacyHS.
Fragile egos?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 05:05 PM   #134
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 797
stacyhs how is your husband?
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 05:07 PM   #135
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Doing all right for now. Pain is better. Having biopsy next week. Thanks for asking.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 11:06 AM   #136
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
I have sent the following email to the Mitcham Rd Cemetery:



I can't make it any larger or it won't post but this is the text:

"Thank you for your response. Please be advised that we were informed earlier on the phone by an employee that Arline Kercher was not buried there when she looked it up in the computer burial records last month. This lead to misinformation being posted on our site. This could be due to the misspelling of the first name as “Arlene” in your records."

Last edited by Stacyhs; 13th November 2020 at 11:09 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 11:31 AM   #137
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,042
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I have sent the following email to the Mitcham Rd Cemetery:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ecb1a56fbc.jpg

I can't make it any larger or it won't post but this is the text:

"Thank you for your response. Please be advised that we were informed earlier on the phone by an employee that Arline Kercher was not buried there when she looked it up in the computer burial records last month. This lead to misinformation being posted on our site. This could be due to the misspelling of the first name as “Arlene” in your records."


I did always say that a) it was such a specific and detailed account on TJMK that this alone made it unlikely to have been invented; b) low-paid council functionaries sometimes make mistakes (as indeed turns out to have happened here); and c) there's no reason why Arline Kercher's death should/would have made it into UK national media (as indeed it did not).

But glad it's sorted out definitively now.

And my very best wishes to your husband, Stacy (and to you too, as life can't be so easy for you either at the moment)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 11:32 AM   #138
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,042
BTW, where is True Vengeance for Amanda Knox these days? Did they not put enough money in the meter?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:01 PM   #139
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
A month or so ago I took the 25 minute train journey from my local rural station to East Croydon, then bicycled the 3 miles or so to Croydon Mitcham Road Cemetery to see for myself whether Arline Kercher had died and was buried next to Meredith as the TJMK poster had stated. And call it what you will, the twice daily correct broken sweep hand clock or whatever, that is indeed the case. The obviously recently prepared grave bears a temporary wooden cross marker with death date of 11 June 2020 at age 74. The only thing amiss is her name misspelled "Arlene" which hopefully will be corrected on the permanent stone. And while yes, I have the photo "receipts" on my mobile to bear me out, I don't feel minded to post them feeling it would be exploitative, certainly invasive of the family's privacy. As to why her passing went unnoticed unlike John Kercher, I can only assume it was the more public manner of his sudden death on the street which prompted a police inquiry.
Thank you, DaveBB.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:03 PM   #140
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I see you joined Nov 5. Forgive me if I take your post with a grain of salt. It is not above certain people to join under a false name and post bogus info and I find it odd that someone should find this thread on a subject long out of the public eye and post this info.
Wow. You believe wholeheartedly the words of a couple of fantasists proven by criminal courts to be prolific liars yet you call a decent upstanding citizen who took the trouble to inform us, when he didn't have to, a liar.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:04 PM   #141
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
For once I agree with you!
Must be a blue moon! (Oh it was.)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:06 PM   #142
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I sent an email to Mitcham Rd Cemetery yesterday. This morning I received a reply confirming that Arline Kercher was buried there on June 11 this year. So I was wrong. See? It's not so hard to admit and the world did not come crashing down. I don't know why that is so hard for some people. When my friend called and she was told there was so record of Arline being buried there, perhaps the records on the computer had not been updated yet or perhaps the first name being misspelled caused the error.



I still find in incredible that not a single report of her death was reported in the media.
This must be the most begrudging apology ever. It is not even an apology. It is an outrageous attempt to paint herself as being virtuous.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:08 PM   #143
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
DaveBB, my suspicions were based on past experiences of trolls (sock puppets) who join groups for the express purpose of posting false information then are never seen again. My apologies. Welcome to the group.
Isn't it better to give newbies the benefit of a doubt instead of jumping down their throat after their first, helpful and informative post?


Please reflect on how you handle information given in good faith.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 01:31 PM   #144
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
All this talk about Trump sending Knox a donation for her defence and her feeling entitlement to (a) belittle this gesture as meaning nothing and actually harming her case, thanks to Trump's openly racist view of Italians and (b) thinking it appropriate to compare her rightful three-year conviction and one year on remand to being the equivalent of four years of his administration, reminds me that unlike Knox being funded by the US Embassy and Trump, together with myriad patriotic Americans, whilst the parents of the murder victim, Arline and John Kercher, together with sister Stephanie and brothers John and Kyle, had no help from the British government and had to make their own way to the trial. Father John Kercher relates in his book he was so harrowed by the murder he could not bring himself to view Meredith laying in the morgue one last time, her body cut up by an autopsy and the video of it distributed by Sollecito's father to the Italian tv channels, whilst Arlene, the mother, who spoke with her popular, gentle, kind daughter at least twice daily had to face all of this horror. She had to face Knox jeering in the mass media that she wanted to confront Meredith's parents and complained that they had turned her down. These two gentle souls, John and Arline Kercher are now at rest themselves. They never got justice. They never got donations from Trump or patriotic Americans. But justice doesn't lie with us here on earth. Justice belongs to God. We cannot know how this justice will be manifested. However, the ancient Egyptians believed in the after life and that each of our hearts is weighed after death. John, Arline and Meredith were the innocent parties in all of this and I for one, now that they are no longer here physically, realise that the moment for justice has passed with their passing.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 02:15 PM   #145
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow. You believe wholeheartedly the words of a couple of fantasists proven by criminal courts to be prolific liars yet you call a decent upstanding citizen who took the trouble to inform us, when he didn't have to, a liar.
Please point out where I called him a 'liar'. I said I took it with a 'grain of salt' which means "to be skeptical of something". This is the skeptics forum, isn't it? So let's look at why I might be skeptical:

1. An earlier phone call to the cemetery resulted in being told that Arline
Kercher was not buried there.
2. Not a single media report was ever found on Arline Kercher's death.
3. Sock puppets/unethical posters with an agenda commonly post false
information.
4. The ONLY previous source of this claim was by one person on TJMK which is
well known for posting such lies such as the 'mixed blood' nonsense and
the "Mignini won his lawsuit against Sollecito who will be issuing a public
apology and admitting he lied" fabrication.
5. DaveBB joined ISF Nov 5 in a thread on a subject basically old news for
years which has had virtually no new members in ages.

No, there was no reason to be skeptical at all, was there?


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This must be the most begrudging apology ever. It is not even an apology. It is an outrageous attempt to paint herself as being virtuous.
You're right. It wasn't an apology. Why on earth should apologize for believing the employee who said Arline Kercher was not buried at the cemetery? The difference between you and me, Vixen, is that when I'm wrong, I can and will admit it. I could have done what you do when proved wrong: dig my heels in or just disappear and act like it never happened.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Isn't it better to give newbies the benefit of a doubt instead of jumping down their throat after their first, helpful and informative post?

Please reflect on how you handle information given in good faith.

Sure...and if that is what I had actually done, I'd agree with you. But it's not. I also apologized to DaveBB for being skeptical and welcomed him. Which is more, I suspect, than you would have done had the situation been reversed.

Please reflect on how you twist and manipulate the actual actions and words of people in such dishonest ways.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 02:18 PM   #146
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All this talk about Trump sending Knox a donation for her defence and her feeling entitlement to (a) belittle this gesture as meaning nothing and actually harming her case, thanks to Trump's openly racist view of Italians and (b) thinking it appropriate to compare her rightful three-year conviction and one year on remand to being the equivalent of four years of his administration, reminds me that unlike Knox being funded by the US Embassy and Trump, together with myriad patriotic Americans, whilst the parents of the murder victim, Arline and John Kercher, together with sister Stephanie and brothers John and Kyle, had no help from the British government and had to make their own way to the trial. Father John Kercher relates in his book he was so harrowed by the murder he could not bring himself to view Meredith laying in the morgue one last time, her body cut up by an autopsy and the video of it distributed by Sollecito's father to the Italian tv channels, whilst Arlene, the mother, who spoke with her popular, gentle, kind daughter at least twice daily had to face all of this horror. She had to face Knox jeering in the mass media that she wanted to confront Meredith's parents and complained that they had turned her down. These two gentle souls, John and Arline Kercher are now at rest themselves. They never got justice. They never got donations from Trump or patriotic Americans. But justice doesn't lie with us here on earth. Justice belongs to God. We cannot know how this justice will be manifested. However, the ancient Egyptians believed in the after life and that each of our hearts is weighed after death. John, Arline and Meredith were the innocent parties in all of this and I for one, now that they are no longer here physically, realise that the moment for justice has passed with their passing.
If one takes out the vitriol aimed at a random Seattleite, this would actually be a decent post.

Simply take out the unproven rhetoric/claims about things like the US Embassy "funding" Knox, and it's a good post.

It's always escaped me why guilters think that the real way to narrate the utter nightmare that the Kercher's have faced, is by including false smears aimed at that random Seattleite.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 13th November 2020 at 02:22 PM.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 03:15 PM   #147
DaveBB
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow. You believe wholeheartedly the words of a couple of fantasists proven by criminal courts to be prolific liars yet you call a decent upstanding citizen who took the trouble to inform us, when he didn't have to, a liar.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12


Neither of the senior Kerchers lived to what we think of today as a ripe old age but at least they were spared the indignity of seeing their daughter's killer leave prison in 3 years time with his smug cat-ate-the-canary manner telling the media about his rudely interrupted hot date with Meredith and dammit, where's a condom when you need it.

Last edited by Agatha; 14th November 2020 at 02:02 PM.
DaveBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 03:18 PM   #148
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,042
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
If one takes out the vitriol aimed at a random Seattleite, this would actually be a decent post.

Simply take out the unproven rhetoric/claims about things like the US Embassy "funding" Knox, and it's a good post.

It's always escaped me why guilters think that the real way to narrate the utter nightmare that the Kercher's have faced, is by including false smears aimed at that random Seattleite.


At least Meredith Kercher's parents lived long enough to see the correct - and almost certainly the sole - culprit convicted and incarcerated. It's just such a crying shame that they got fed lies and misrepresentations by the police, the prosecution, their own lawyer, and the utterly ineffectual (and hopelessly compromised/conflicted) court of first instance - lies and misrepresentations which demonstrably created huge congnitive dissonance for the Kercher family from 2011 onwards.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 03:23 PM   #149
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Speaking of how things are twisted and completely misrepresented in dishonest ways by you, let's take a look at these quotes from your post above:

Quote:
unlike Knox being funded by the US Embassy and Trump, together with myriad patriotic Americans, whilst the parents of the murder victim, Arline and John Kercher, together with sister Stephanie and brothers John and Kyle, had no help from the British government and had to make their own way to the trial.
1. The US Embassy (nor the US Gov't ) did not fund the Knox/Mellas families in any way.

2. Trump made one donation...or so he claims. He never provided any proof nor did he
ever say how much this alleged donation was. He is pathological liar. For example, he
claimed he donated $10,000 to the 9/11 Fund. He never did. Trump is infamous for
promising to make donations that he never follows through with.

3. How do you know that the Kerchers did not receive donations from 'patriotic' Britons
or others who wanted to help defray costs? Besides, the cost from the UK to Italy
(less than $300 RT average) on Ryan Air, Gatwick to Perugia) is
substantially less than from Seattle to Italy. Nor did the Kerchers have to pay for
experts or lawyers as did the Knox/Mellas and Sollecito families. Italy paid for those.

Quote:
She had to face Knox jeering in the mass media that she wanted to confront Meredith's parents and complained that they had turned her down.
Your choice of words is truly revealing. These are Knox's actual words:
Quote:
She said: 'Contact the Kerchers? I haven't yet tried. There is this abyss of pain that separates us, that has grown during the trial, I haven't had the courage to cross it. Millions of times I've thought about it and millions of times in my own way I haven't done it because I am scared that they will think it a legal strategy or a media one.

'I don't want them to think of me like that. I read what they said about the trial, about Meredith. I've read John Kercher's (Meredith's father) book. I was absorbed and annihilated by the trial, by prison.

'I still don't have the strength to cry, to digest the loss of Meredith. I would like to meet them, one day I would like to go with them to the grave of my friend.

'I don't want to impose myself on their pain, I hope that I can meet them halfway, even if for now it is too early, they still think I am guilty and that is something that hurts me a great deal.'
If that is your definition of "jeering", "confront", and "complained" then perhaps you need to visit the London Library and check out their dictionary. And you have the gall to lecture me on why I was skeptical about just accepting Davebb's post at face value? Thank you for proving my point. I can always count on you.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 03:38 PM   #150
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow. You believe wholeheartedly the words of a couple of fantasists proven by criminal courts to be prolific liars yet you call a decent upstanding citizen who took the trouble to inform us, when he didn't have to, a liar.
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to conform with moderated post


Neither of the senior Kerchers lived to what we think of today as a ripe old age but at least they were spared the indignity of seeing their daughter's killer leave prison in 3 years time with his smug cat-ate-the-canary manner telling the media about his rudely interrupted hot date with Meredith and dammit, where's a condom when you need it.
DaveBB, I fixed your post as it looked like Vix's post was part of yours. Thanks for the nice words. Yes, her posts were very predictable. Vixen says she lives in Finland now. But I take that with a grain of salt, too.

Last edited by Agatha; 14th November 2020 at 02:03 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2020, 03:44 PM   #151
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,248
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
At least Meredith Kercher's parents lived long enough to see the correct - and almost certainly the sole - culprit convicted and incarcerated. It's just such a crying shame that they got fed lies and misrepresentations by the police, the prosecution, their own lawyer, and the utterly ineffectual (and hopelessly compromised/conflicted) court of first instance - lies and misrepresentations which demonstrably created huge congnitive dissonance for the Kercher family from 2011 onwards.
FTFY
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 01:18 AM   #152
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I sent an email to Mitcham Rd Cemetery yesterday. This morning I received a reply confirming that Arline Kercher was buried there on June 11 this year. So I was wrong. See? It's not so hard to admit and the world did not come crashing down. I don't know why that is so hard for some people. When my friend called and she was told there was so record of Arline being buried there, perhaps the records on the computer had not been updated yet or perhaps the first name being misspelled caused the error.



I still find in incredible that not a single report of her death was reported in the media.
As you know, Arline Kercher did not consider Knox innocent. She is quoted as saying that her daughter Meredith was killed because she was everything that Knox was not. She also said of the conviction:

Quote:
Meredith's mother insisted the trial had been conducted fairly and branded attempts by Knox's supporters to call on Hillary Clinton 'desperate'.
So do you mind my asking why you were so keen to keep contacting the cemetery given your hostile attitude towards the Kerchers?
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 01:20 AM   #153
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
DaveBB, I fixed your post as it looked like Vix's post was part of yours. Thanks for the nice words. Yes, her posts were very predictable. Vixen says she lives in Finland now. But I take that with a grain of salt, too.
I don't remember discussing my affairs with you or asking for your approval.

If you recall you were told weeks ago that Arline had died and that it was from a reliable source.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 01:29 AM   #154
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Speaking of how things are twisted and completely misrepresented in dishonest ways by you, let's take a look at these quotes from your post above:



1. The US Embassy (nor the US Gov't ) did not fund the Knox/Mellas families in any way.

2. Trump made one donation...or so he claims. He never provided any proof nor did he
ever say how much this alleged donation was. He is pathological liar. For example, he
claimed he donated $10,000 to the 9/11 Fund. He never did. Trump is infamous for
promising to make donations that he never follows through with.

3. How do you know that the Kerchers did not receive donations from 'patriotic' Britons
or others who wanted to help defray costs? Besides, the cost from the UK to Italy
(less than $300 RT average) on Ryan Air, Gatwick to Perugia) is
substantially less than from Seattle to Italy. Nor did the Kerchers have to pay for
experts or lawyers as did the Knox/Mellas and Sollecito families. Italy paid for those.



Your choice of words is truly revealing. These are Knox's actual words:


If that is your definition of "jeering", "confront", and "complained" then perhaps you need to visit the London Library and check out their dictionary. And you have the gall to lecture me on why I was skeptical about just accepting Davebb's post at face value? Thank you for proving my point. I can always count on you.
Amanda Knox did demand to confront Meredith's parents. Given both John and Arline considered her responsible for her death this strikes me as ill-mannered and ill-considered.

Quote:
Amanda Knox says she wants to visit the grave of Meredith Kercher with the murder victim’s parents
Cleared Knox said an 'abyss of pain' separates her from Meredith's family
She says she hopes one day she can visit Meredith's grave with them
Kercher family still think Knox is guilty, she says, which 'hurts a great deal'
She rejected calls for her to fly to Florence on September 30 for retrial
Said she could not risk exposing herself to another 'injustice' by returning
Given the facts found by the merits court and the final Supreme Court that Knox was certainly present during the murder, did hear the scream, did wash her hands of Meredith's blood and did name Lumumba to cover up for Guede, her demand to 'visit Meredith's gave with Meredith's parents' is a bit of a cheek to put it mildly.

Once again it is all about herself.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 01:31 AM   #155
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
At least Meredith Kercher's parents lived long enough to see the correct - and almost certainly the sole - culprit convicted and incarcerated. It's just such a crying shame that they got fed lies and misrepresentations by the police, the prosecution, their own lawyer, and the utterly ineffectual (and hopelessly compromised/conflicted) court of first instance - lies and misrepresentations which demonstrably created huge congnitive dissonance for the Kercher family from 2011 onwards.
Claim you.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 01:40 AM   #156
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,671
Originally Posted by DaveBB View Post
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow. You believe wholeheartedly the words of a couple of fantasists proven by criminal courts to be prolific liars yet you call a decent upstanding citizen who took the trouble to inform us, when he didn't have to, a liar.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12


Neither of the senior Kerchers lived to what we think of today as a ripe old age but at least they were spared the indignity of seeing their daughter's killer leave prison in 3 years time with his smug cat-ate-the-canary manner telling the media about his rudely interrupted hot date with Meredith and dammit, where's a condom when you need it.
Guede hasn't demanded the parents accompany him to Meredith's grave. Unilke Knox and Sollecito he has expressed remorse and apologised. OK to a parent of a murder victim, that maybe worth zippo but at least he has not harassed them.

Arline Kercher AIUI was born in Lahore, Pakistan. Do you believe her life mattered? Or do you agree with Trump that only German lives matter (40% of Americans like himself and Knox being of German descent). So of course Knox gets the financial support but not the victim's parents.

As Arline Kercher believed Knox was responsible for her daughter's death and you have expressed your dismissive opinion of her belief, can I ask why you went to visit her grave, given your lack of respect for her?
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 06:41 AM   #157
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Guede hasn't demanded the parents accompany him to Meredith's grave. Unilke Knox and Sollecito he has expressed remorse and apologised. OK to a parent of a murder victim, that maybe worth zippo but at least he has not harassed them.
This defence of Guede is simply obscene. Further, as per usual, you can produce no evidence at all of this "demand

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Arline Kercher believed Knox was responsible for her daughter's death and you have expressed your dismissive opinion of her belief, can I ask why you went to visit her grave, given your lack of respect for her?
Once again you force yourself into people's thoughts, further victimizing the original victims to all this. All in the name of smearing people who've been acquitted.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 06:45 AM   #158
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Given the facts found by the merits court and the final Supreme Court that Knox was certainly present during the murder, did hear the scream, did wash her hands of Meredith's blood and did name Lumumba to cover up for Guede, her demand to 'visit Meredith's gave with Meredith's parents' is a bit of a cheek to put it mildly.

Once again it is all about herself.
This is not what the final court found as factual. Also the Hellmann merits court did not find this as factual. Please quit misrepresenting the court record.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 06:54 AM   #159
Welshman
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Guede hasn't demanded the parents accompany him to Meredith's grave. Unilke Knox and Sollecito he has expressed remorse and apologised. OK to a parent of a murder victim, that maybe worth zippo but at least he has not harassed them.

Arline Kercher AIUI was born in Lahore, Pakistan. Do you believe her life mattered? Or do you agree with Trump that only German lives matter (40% of Americans like himself and Knox being of German descent). So of course Knox gets the financial support but not the victim's parents.

As Arline Kercher believed Knox was responsible for her daughter's death and you have expressed your dismissive opinion of her belief, can I ask why you went to visit her grave, given your lack of respect for her?
Why should Amanda and Raffaele express remorse for a crime they didn't commit.
Welshman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2020, 07:46 AM   #160
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you recall you were told weeks ago that Arline had died and that it was from a reliable source.
This whole thing has been an object lesson on what constitutes a reliable source.

Reliable sources don't just make claims. Reliable sources prove things.

Indeed, the only reliable source on this one has been Stacyhs. So reliable, in fact, that when the evidence went against her claims about what DaveSS had posted, she immediately 'fessed up.... even providing the thread with the actual evidence which disproved her original stuff.

Unreliable sources can turn out to be offering facts. But that's not what makes them worth listening to.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:45 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.