[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 23

Dave Rogers · 11th January 2021, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

Remember the parades he wanted?

Still possible. I'd be happy to supply the tumbrel.

Dave

carlosy · 11th January 2021, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

I don't think that Trump has the intellect to go that route. His response to stuff he doesn't like is basically just stamping his feet and flinging stuff around and bawling. It takes a lot of effort to impose and maintain Martial law.

Since when does he need intellect?
It's enough if some of the crazies around him planting the idea in his head.

alfaniner · 11th January 2021, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I can imagine he might declare that he wants martial law to be imposed on the 19th. If the people he declares it to have any sense, their response will be "Yes sir, we'll get back to you on the details," followed by insurmountable difficulties in contacting them for the next 48 hours.

Dave

They should tell him they'll be ready... in two weeks.

slyjoe · 11th January 2021, 06:40 AM

Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution?

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution?

People have spent entire legal careers trying to answer just one various sub-question to that.

Yes, no, sorta, maybe, Yes with But, No with an except... all are sorta accurate answers to that question.

slyjoe · 11th January 2021, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

People have spent entire legal careers trying to answer just one various sub-question to that.

Yes, no, sorta, maybe, Yes with But, No with an except... all are sorta accurate answers to that question.

So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear.

Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law.

Horatius · 11th January 2021, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear.

Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law.

One of the fun things about attempting a coup - you don't have to follow the rules.

The question "Can Trump use the Army to stay in power?" won't, can't be answered by reference to rules, laws or traditions. The real answer will only come when he gives an order, and we see if the Army obeys it or not.

I'd guess "Not", but that has little to do with the law, and everything to do with the willingness of the Army to obey the law.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear.

Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law.

Well because at the end of the day at a certain point in government you reach a level so high that questions of "technically legal" become pointless.

If the President does something and Congress and the Supreme Court either agree with it or don't actively and effectively counter him questions of whether or not what he does is "legal" become amazingly academic.

And Trump more than any other President before him has leaned hard into the "Everything I do is legal until somebody stops me" mentality.

timhau · 11th January 2021, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Well at least one GOP Senator would have to show up. A quorum of 51 Senators is required to conduct business.

Having seen Mitt Romney's speech from Wednesday night, I'm pretty sure he will be there.

Too bad he ran in 2012, not 2016.

thaiboxerken · 11th January 2021, 07:37 AM

They invaded the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS....

But we can't call it a coup?

Meadmaker · 11th January 2021, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution?

There's a halfway decent wikipedia article on that. Basically, there is the possibility of suspension of habeas corpus, which basically means the government can lock people up without giving a reason, which is basically martial law.

For more info, try wikipedia. I think the term I looked up was "martial law in the US".

The Don · 11th January 2021, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

Having seen Mitt Romney's speech from Wednesday night, I'm pretty sure he will be there.

Too bad he ran in 2012, not 2016.

Why ?

Let's say that he ran in 2016 and was successful, would there have been any significant difference in policy ?

Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ?

Would he have implemented a tax cut and exploded the deficit ?

Would he have taken every opportunity to add conservatives to SCOTUS ?

Would he have decreased environmental protections ?

The only possible difference IMO would have been w.r.t. the response to Covid, but there are still enough idiots in charge of states to ensure a massive death toll in any case.

timhau · 11th January 2021, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Why ?

Because he isn't a

ing fascist.

The Don · 11th January 2021, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

Because he isn't a

ing fascist.

True, but if it doesn't make an appreciable difference to the policies then why is it better.

Indeed, if he's more likely to get said policies enacted because he's a far more competent politician and legislator and if he's far more likely to get re-elected then a Romney victory in 2016 could have been even worse for the US.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 07:50 AM

"LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place.

The Don · 11th January 2021, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place.

How so ?

For all the sound and fury, President Trump has been a comparative failure as President. He hasn't really managed to get much of his legislative agenda passed, relying instead on relatively impotent Executive Orders, and he's managed to fail to get re-elected and has lost the House and Senate along the way.

A seasoned political operator like Romney would likely have achieved far more and would have had 8 years to do it in. The underclass who voted for President Trump would still have been there and still have voted GOP but would be responding to quieter dog whistles.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

How so ?

BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP.

thaiboxerken · 11th January 2021, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place.

Maybe, but I believe a significant portion of Republicans who ran in 2016 are just as fascist. The entire party is driving towards fascism and has been for decades.

alfaniner · 11th January 2021, 07:59 AM

I find it weirdly prescient that the reflection on the bulletproof glass in front of Trump during his insurgency speech forms a big "X". At first I thought it might have been a Confederate flag, but I knew that couldn't be the case. Apparently it's some scaffolding or something at just the right angle.

The Don · 11th January 2021, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP.

True, they wouldn't have, but then again the wouldn't have needed to try because he would have more than likely been quietly re-elected.

He could then have got back to GOP business as usual:

Hamstringing and/or repealing the ACA
Implementing unafforable tax cuts for the rich
Repealing necessary environmental and worker protections
Attacking civil rights
Demonising the poor and minorities
Removing women's reproductive rights
Junking science and experts

IMO the lesson the GOP have learned from President Trump isn't that they shouldn't elect a demagogue and attempt a coup if he's not re-elected but rather that they should choose a more competent demagogue who would obviate the need for a coup (because he is re-elected) or who would make a far better job of carrying out the coup should it be required.

Dave Rogers · 11th January 2021, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ?

Given that it was essentially his own policy adopted by the Democrats as something they could actually force through, quite possibly not.

Dave

Wudang · 11th January 2021, 08:20 AM

Apologies if it's been posted before but over in the Computer section cow_cat posted

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13356525

Originally Posted by cow_cat

Parler is a sloppily hacked together, joke of a social-media site which has so many security flaws, this just happened.

TL;DR, the entire Parler database, including deleted posts (which weren't actually deleted, just removed from public view), images and their metadata (locations, IP address of uploader etc), account information, and even verified account information has been downloaded and stored in various places online.

Lithrael · 11th January 2021, 08:25 AM

In the alternate universe where some other republican won in 2016, someone is posting “can you imagine Trump’s administration responding to COVID? We might have had a quarter million deaths” and someone else is replying “come on, be realistic, nobody would screw it up that badly. TDS”

gnome · 11th January 2021, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

True, but if it doesn't make an appreciable difference to the policies then why is it better.

Indeed, if he's more likely to get said policies enacted because he's a far more competent politician and legislator and if he's far more likely to get re-elected then a Romney victory in 2016 could have been even worse for the US.

Not at all. True, we might have had a Republican more successful at enacting Republican priorities and staying in office, but having an unstable idiot in the white house, and having our whole democracy at risk from agitated mobs, is NOT BETTER.

Quoting Chidi: "That's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?"

The Don · 11th January 2021, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Given that it was essentially his own policy adopted by the Democrats as something they could actually force through, quite possibly not.

Dave

Hasn't stopped him from touting an alternative:

Quote:

Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) said Wednesday that he has a new plan to replace ObamaCare.

“It's a replacement for ObamaCare,” Romney told The Hill. “We're ready with that, but we'll see what kind of support we get.”

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lace-obamacare

TragicMonkey · 11th January 2021, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Hasn't stopped him from touting an alternative:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lace-obamacare

Romney did have a plan. A wonderful plan! But he accidentally left the binders full of his plan on top of his car, where the dog ate it.

Jack by the hedge · 11th January 2021, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP.

Indeed. A mob of Mormons won't do. It's awfully close, but not quite right.

shemp · 11th January 2021, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP.

FTFY

eerok · 11th January 2021, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Well, this is interesting.

https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1348115530654347266

These are not lone actors.

Why are they staged there?

Did they come into the Capitol building?

If they did not, did they plan to?

Are they related to the group of 100 LARPers I mentioned above?

P.S. My referring of them as LARPers is not meant to diminish the seriousness of what they represent. At one point what they do can become something else other than pretending. On the 6th, that could have meant dead politicians.

Those look like the feds who went in to extract Babbit after she was shot. They left with her and didn't return.

Fizil · 11th January 2021, 09:07 AM

Seems the Democrats have decided to wimp out on impeachment. Instead of an impeachment resolution being made today, a resolution asking Pence to invoke the 25th was put forth, and presumably they will be debating it tomorrow.

Utterly toothless, and frankly playing politics instead of doing what needs to be done...

I guess this isn't true, apparently there was a second short session after the morning session where they introduced the impeachment motion. I have no idea why they did it in a separate session, maybe it was a parliamentary procedure thing.

slyjoe · 11th January 2021, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Fizil

Seems the Democrats have decided to wimp out on impeachment. Instead of an impeachment resolution being made today, a resolution asking Pence to invoke the 25th was put forth, and presumably they will be debating it tomorrow.

Utterly toothless, and frankly playing politics instead of doing what needs to be done...

Also posted in the Second Impeachment thread.

pgwenthold · 11th January 2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I think so, too. The insurrectionists would certainly have harmed members of Congress if they'd got their hands on them. It might be difficult for some people to wrap their heads around it, but there it is. It's absolutely abominable and unforgivable.

Dozens of Capitol security police were injured in some way.

Two were killed.

But they were just protestors who got a little zealous?

One of the guys who was climbing the walls of the Capitol claimed he just got caught up in it and went overboard. He was shown wearing climbing gear. Because, you know, doesn't everyone just show up prepared to scale walls.

The Great Zaganza · 11th January 2021, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

They invaded the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS....

But we can't call it a coup?

you can, but that might entice the TrumpChumps to invade the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS.

pgwenthold · 11th January 2021, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I really, really want to go on Facebook and call out all my Republican Friends, but so far I've avoided most political posting. Most of their feeds are probably hidden from my view anyway. And I know it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, anyway.

I know that my Facebook is all pretty good because I have not seen a single post whining about Trump being banned in my feed.

Granted, I have very few friends, and most of it is conversation about running and Boston Terrier pictures @staceyhs

Meadmaker · 11th January 2021, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Why ?

Let's say that he ran in 2016 and was successful, would there have been any significant difference in policy ?

Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ?

Would he have implemented a tax cut and exploded the deficit ?

Would he have taken every opportunity to add conservatives to SCOTUS ?

Would he have decreased environmental protections ?

The only possible difference IMO would have been w.r.t. the response to Covid, but there are still enough idiots in charge of states to ensure a massive death toll in any case.

I don't hate Trump because of his policies. I hate him because of his character.

Romney wouldn't be carrying on like Trump did in the wake of a failed re-election attempt.

The Don · 11th January 2021, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I don't hate Trump because of his policies.

You're pro deficit ?

You're pro releasing poisonous chemicals into the environment ?

You're pro the 1% getting richer and richer while the middle classes are slipping backwards ?

You're anti civil rights ?

You're pro voter suppression and disenfranchisement ?

I guess it takes all kinds.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I hate him because of his character.

Romney wouldn't be carrying on like Trump did in the wake of a failed re-election attempt.

You're right, not least because he almost certainly would have been re-elected but he'd have handled defeat more magnanimously knowing that would make it far more likely that the GOP could carry on as usual.

thaiboxerken · 11th January 2021, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

You're pro deficit ?

You're pro releasing poisonous chemicals into the environment ?

You're pro the 1% getting richer and richer while the middle classes are slipping backwards ?

You're anti civil rights ?

You're pro voter suppression and disenfranchisement ?

I guess it takes all kinds.

I'm not sure if Meadmaker is, but the GOP is all of that and more. Republicans aren't against fascism, they are the party of fascism. They just want to be more subtle about it again now that they see the Trump style of fascism fail.

varwoche · 11th January 2021, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

You're pro deficit ?

You're pro releasing poisonous chemicals into the environment ?

You're pro the 1% getting richer and richer while the middle classes are slipping backwards ?

You're anti civil rights ?

You're pro voter suppression and disenfranchisement ?

I guess it takes all kinds.

I'm guessing that Meadmaker doesn't agree with these policies, but doesn't think they merit hate. However, he might want to consider the policy of separating kids from their parents and locking them in cages.

eerok · 11th January 2021, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Apologies if it's been posted before but over in the Computer section cow_cat posted

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13356525

If true (and it does explain a few things) that's very good news.

Meadmaker · 11th January 2021, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

You're pro deficit ?

You're pro releasing poisonous chemicals into the environment ?

You're pro the 1% getting richer and richer while the middle classes are slipping backwards ?

You're anti civil rights ?

You're pro voter suppression and disenfranchisement ?

I guess it takes all kinds.

That's not the point. I voted for Obama. I've never voted for any Republican presidential candidate. (Exception: In 2016, I voted for John Kasich in the primary, specifically so I could cast a vote against Donald Trump.) I disagree with a lot of what Mitt Romney would have done in office, but he's not a bad person.

Trump is a bad person.

And I do think that has been reflected in the way he governs. His incompetence in the pandemic handling is, in my opinion, a direct result of his character deficiencies. A conservative Republican who was not a narcissist would have done much better.

11th January 2021, 05:05 AM	#881
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,425	Originally Posted by Susheel Remember the parades he wanted? Still possible. I'd be happy to supply the tumbrel. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

11th January 2021, 05:40 AM	#882
carlosy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 412	Originally Posted by Susheel I don't think that Trump has the intellect to go that route. His response to stuff he doesn't like is basically just stamping his feet and flinging stuff around and bawling. It takes a lot of effort to impose and maintain Martial law. Since when does he need intellect? It's enough if some of the crazies around him planting the idea in his head.
carlosy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 412

11th January 2021, 06:39 AM	#883
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 25,064	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I can imagine he might declare that he wants martial law to be imposed on the 19th. If the people he declares it to have any sense, their response will be "Yes sir, we'll get back to you on the details," followed by insurmountable difficulties in contacting them for the next 48 hours. Dave They should tell him they'll be ready... in two weeks.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

11th January 2021, 06:40 AM	#884
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,597	Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution?
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th January 2021, 06:45 AM	#885
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,579	Originally Posted by slyjoe Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution? People have spent entire legal careers trying to answer just one various sub-question to that. Yes, no, sorta, maybe, Yes with But, No with an except... all are sorta accurate answers to that question.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 06:51 AM	#886
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,597	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue People have spent entire legal careers trying to answer just one various sub-question to that. Yes, no, sorta, maybe, Yes with But, No with an except... all are sorta accurate answers to that question. So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear. Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th January 2021, 07:14 AM	#887
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,163	Originally Posted by slyjoe So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear. Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law. One of the fun things about attempting a coup - you don't have to follow the rules. The question "Can Trump use the Army to stay in power?" won't, can't be answered by reference to rules, laws or traditions. The real answer will only come when he gives an order, and we see if the Army obeys it or not. I'd guess "Not", but that has little to do with the law, and everything to do with the willingness of the Army to obey the law.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

11th January 2021, 07:25 AM	#888
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,579	Originally Posted by slyjoe So, like Trump talks. You hear what you want to hear. Especially given the Posse Comitatus Act, it seems the Army couldn't be used. So, since you can't have a coup without an army (according to some here), it doesn't seem you could use the Army to enforce martial law. Well because at the end of the day at a certain point in government you reach a level so high that questions of "technically legal" become pointless. If the President does something and Congress and the Supreme Court either agree with it or don't actively and effectively counter him questions of whether or not what he does is "legal" become amazingly academic. And Trump more than any other President before him has leaned hard into the "Everything I do is legal until somebody stops me" mentality.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 07:39 AM.

11th January 2021, 07:33 AM	#889
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,513	Originally Posted by acbytesla Well at least one GOP Senator would have to show up. A quorum of 51 Senators is required to conduct business. Having seen Mitt Romney's speech from Wednesday night, I'm pretty sure he will be there. Too bad he ran in 2012, not 2016.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

11th January 2021, 07:37 AM	#890
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,717	They invaded the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS.... But we can't call it a coup?
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

11th January 2021, 07:40 AM	#891
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by slyjoe Is martial law even a thing under the Constitution? There's a halfway decent wikipedia article on that. Basically, there is the possibility of suspension of habeas corpus, which basically means the government can lock people up without giving a reason, which is basically martial law. For more info, try wikipedia. I think the term I looked up was "martial law in the US".
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

11th January 2021, 07:44 AM	#892
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by timhau Having seen Mitt Romney's speech from Wednesday night, I'm pretty sure he will be there. Too bad he ran in 2012, not 2016. Why ? Let's say that he ran in 2016 and was successful, would there have been any significant difference in policy ? Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ? Would he have implemented a tax cut and exploded the deficit ? Would he have taken every opportunity to add conservatives to SCOTUS ? Would he have decreased environmental protections ? The only possible difference IMO would have been w.r.t. the response to Covid, but there are still enough idiots in charge of states to ensure a massive death toll in any case.

11th January 2021, 07:47 AM	#893
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,513	Originally Posted by The Don Why ? Because he isn't a ing fascist.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

11th January 2021, 07:50 AM	#894
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by timhau Because he isn't a ing fascist. True, but if it doesn't make an appreciable difference to the policies then why is it better. Indeed, if he's more likely to get said policies enacted because he's a far more competent politician and legislator and if he's far more likely to get re-elected then a Romney victory in 2016 could have been even worse for the US.

11th January 2021, 07:50 AM	#895
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,579	"LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 07:56 AM	#896
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place. How so ? For all the sound and fury, President Trump has been a comparative failure as President. He hasn't really managed to get much of his legislative agenda passed, relying instead on relatively impotent Executive Orders, and he's managed to fail to get re-elected and has lost the House and Senate along the way. A seasoned political operator like Romney would likely have achieved far more and would have had 8 years to do it in. The underclass who voted for President Trump would still have been there and still have voted GOP but would be responding to quieter dog whistles.

11th January 2021, 07:57 AM	#897
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,579	Originally Posted by The Don How so ? BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 07:57 AM	#898
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,717	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "LOL but any Republican would have been just as bad...." is how we got Trump in the first place. Maybe, but I believe a significant portion of Republicans who ran in 2016 are just as fascist. The entire party is driving towards fascism and has been for decades.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

11th January 2021, 08:06 AM	#900
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP. True, they wouldn't have, but then again the wouldn't have needed to try because he would have more than likely been quietly re-elected. He could then have got back to GOP business as usual: Hamstringing and/or repealing the ACA Implementing unafforable tax cuts for the rich Repealing necessary environmental and worker protections Attacking civil rights Demonising the poor and minorities Removing women's reproductive rights Junking science and experts IMO the lesson the GOP have learned from President Trump isn't that they shouldn't elect a demagogue and attempt a coup if he's not re-elected but rather that they should choose a more competent demagogue who would obviate the need for a coup (because he is re-elected) or who would make a far better job of carrying out the coup should it be required.

11th January 2021, 08:18 AM	#901
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,425	Originally Posted by The Don Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ? Given that it was essentially his own policy adopted by the Democrats as something they could actually force through, quite possibly not. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

11th January 2021, 08:20 AM	#902
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,588	Apologies if it's been posted before but over in the Computer section cow_cat posted http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13356525 Originally Posted by cow_cat Parler is a sloppily hacked together, joke of a social-media site which has so many security flaws, this just happened. TL;DR, the entire Parler database, including deleted posts (which weren't actually deleted, just removed from public view), images and their metadata (locations, IP address of uploader etc), account information, and even verified account information has been downloaded and stored in various places online.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

11th January 2021, 08:25 AM	#903
Lithrael Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,049	In the alternate universe where some other republican won in 2016, someone is posting “can you imagine Trump’s administration responding to COVID? We might have had a quarter million deaths” and someone else is replying “come on, be realistic, nobody would screw it up that badly. TDS”
Lithrael Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,049

11th January 2021, 08:28 AM	#904
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,278	Originally Posted by The Don True, but if it doesn't make an appreciable difference to the policies then why is it better. Indeed, if he's more likely to get said policies enacted because he's a far more competent politician and legislator and if he's far more likely to get re-elected then a Romney victory in 2016 could have been even worse for the US. Not at all. True, we might have had a Republican more successful at enacting Republican priorities and staying in office, but having an unstable idiot in the white house, and having our whole democracy at risk from agitated mobs, is NOT BETTER. Quoting Chidi: "That's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?"
	__________________

11th January 2021, 08:28 AM	#905
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Given that it was essentially his own policy adopted by the Democrats as something they could actually force through, quite possibly not. Dave Hasn't stopped him from touting an alternative: Quote: Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) said Wednesday that he has a new plan to replace ObamaCare. “It's a replacement for ObamaCare,” Romney told The Hill. “We're ready with that, but we'll see what kind of support we get.” https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lace-obamacare

11th January 2021, 08:30 AM	#906
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,750	Originally Posted by The Don Hasn't stopped him from touting an alternative: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lace-obamacare Romney did have a plan. A wonderful plan! But he accidentally left the binders full of his plan on top of his car, where the dog ate it.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

11th January 2021, 08:41 AM	#907
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,986	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP. Indeed. A mob of Mormons won't do. It's awfully close, but not quite right.

11th January 2021, 08:45 AM	#908
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,873	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue BECAUSE IF MITT ROMNEY HAD WON IN 2016 AND LOST IN 2020 A MOB OF MORMONS WOULDN'T HAVE STAGED A COUP. FTFY
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare

11th January 2021, 09:00 AM	#909
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,712	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Well, this is interesting. https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1348115530654347266 These are not lone actors. Why are they staged there? Did they come into the Capitol building? If they did not, did they plan to? Are they related to the group of 100 LARPers I mentioned above? P.S. My referring of them as LARPers is not meant to diminish the seriousness of what they represent. At one point what they do can become something else other than pretending. On the 6th, that could have meant dead politicians. Those look like the feds who went in to extract Babbit after she was shot. They left with her and didn't return.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

11th January 2021, 09:07 AM	#910
Fizil Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 691	Seems the Democrats have decided to wimp out on impeachment. Instead of an impeachment resolution being made today, a resolution asking Pence to invoke the 25th was put forth, and presumably they will be debating it tomorrow. Utterly toothless, and frankly playing politics instead of doing what needs to be done... I guess this isn't true, apparently there was a second short session after the morning session where they introduced the impeachment motion. I have no idea why they did it in a separate session, maybe it was a parliamentary procedure thing.
Fizil Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 691	Last edited by Fizil; 11th January 2021 at 10:16 AM.

11th January 2021, 09:07 AM	#911
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,597	Originally Posted by Fizil Seems the Democrats have decided to wimp out on impeachment. Instead of an impeachment resolution being made today, a resolution asking Pence to invoke the 25th was put forth, and presumably they will be debating it tomorrow. Utterly toothless, and frankly playing politics instead of doing what needs to be done... Also posted in the Second Impeachment thread.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th January 2021, 09:18 AM	#912
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,228	Originally Posted by eerok I think so, too. The insurrectionists would certainly have harmed members of Congress if they'd got their hands on them. It might be difficult for some people to wrap their heads around it, but there it is. It's absolutely abominable and unforgivable. Dozens of Capitol security police were injured in some way. Two were killed. But they were just protestors who got a little zealous? One of the guys who was climbing the walls of the Capitol claimed he just got caught up in it and went overboard. He was shown wearing climbing gear. Because, you know, doesn't everyone just show up prepared to scale walls.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

11th January 2021, 09:19 AM	#913
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,878	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken They invaded the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS.... But we can't call it a coup? you can, but that might entice the TrumpChumps to invade the Capitol wanting to kill Pelosi, Pence and others in order to install Trump as the "rightful" POTUS.
	__________________ The things that you're liable To read in the Bible It ain't necessarily so

11th January 2021, 09:20 AM	#914
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,228	Originally Posted by alfaniner I really, really want to go on Facebook and call out all my Republican Friends, but so far I've avoided most political posting. Most of their feeds are probably hidden from my view anyway. And I know it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, anyway. I know that my Facebook is all pretty good because I have not seen a single post whining about Trump being banned in my feed. Granted, I have very few friends, and most of it is conversation about running and Boston Terrier pictures @staceyhs
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

11th January 2021, 09:28 AM	#915
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by The Don Why ? Let's say that he ran in 2016 and was successful, would there have been any significant difference in policy ? Would he have tried to dismantle the ACA ? Would he have implemented a tax cut and exploded the deficit ? Would he have taken every opportunity to add conservatives to SCOTUS ? Would he have decreased environmental protections ? The only possible difference IMO would have been w.r.t. the response to Covid, but there are still enough idiots in charge of states to ensure a massive death toll in any case. I don't hate Trump because of his policies. I hate him because of his character. Romney wouldn't be carrying on like Trump did in the wake of a failed re-election attempt.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

11th January 2021, 09:33 AM	#916
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,629	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I don't hate Trump because of his policies. You're pro deficit ? You're pro releasing poisonous chemicals into the environment ? You're pro the 1% getting richer and richer while the middle classes are slipping backwards ? You're anti civil rights ? You're pro voter suppression and disenfranchisement ? I guess it takes all kinds. Originally Posted by Meadmaker I hate him because of his character. Romney wouldn't be carrying on like Trump did in the wake of a failed re-election attempt. You're right, not least because he almost certainly would have been re-elected but he'd have handled defeat more magnanimously knowing that would make it far more likely that the GOP could carry on as usual.