[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 35

Apathia · 18th January 2021, 09:46 AM

I'm not saying these people are stupid or morons, just that they lack in capacity to participate in a representational democracy. (even if it represented their own privileged interests)

Delvo · 18th January 2021, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

They are not just one thing. This "they are just a bunch of dumb hicks" narrative diminishes them and it is, for that reason, extremely dangerous.

Another way in which many Democrats behave as if their goal is to keep losing & failing indefinitely.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2021, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Another way in which many Democrats behave as if their goal is to keep losing & failing indefinitely.

The Democrats lose, and they try to play off their losses as being too good to play the game, therefore they get a moral victory, therefore they never really feel like they lost, so they never adjust their actions.

Thermal · 18th January 2021, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

I'm not saying these people are stupid or morons, just that they lack in capacity to participate in a representational democracy. (even if it represented their own privileged interests)

I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2021, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction.

What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days.

With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video..

Mike! · 18th January 2021, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days.

With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video..

I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see.

Cain · 18th January 2021, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction.

It's difficult to deprogram someone with cultish beliefs if you begin by calling them "stupid," especially if they're stupid.

Segnosaur · 18th January 2021, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Quote:

So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks.

I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I guess the question is how you actually define 'dumb/stupid/etc.'.

Yes, there are people who are otherwise successful but whom otherwise support. But, if a person is so.. gullible/foolish that they would vote for/support someone who is such an obvious fraud as Trump... that's a pretty big blind spot that they have in their intellect.

Quote:

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking.

The question here is... is it actually possible to 'change hearts and minds' of Trump supporters. They have drunk the kool-aid, and may be forever be unreachable.

Minoosh · 18th January 2021, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see.

You think Davy Crockett, I think Dan'l Boone. My brother and I belonged to the Fess Parker Fan Club and we each received a genuine imitation coonskin cap. Davy Crockett is maybe more on topic but I think Fess Parker played them both, so that works too.

I sure hope the hats were fake. Hate to think they were real!

cosmicaug · 18th January 2021, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

None of those things happened, but instead we ended up with a guy wearing no shirt, a headdress that was some combination of Norse and Native American, with Norse tattoos, babbling in the chair of the President of the Senate, and a small but enthusiastic crowd shouting Amen!

I must admit I didn't see that coming.

I remember seeing articles & videos about him at some protest in AZ (it may have been the 'the pens they gave us made our votes invisible to the machines' conspiracy protest —do I remember correctly that at one point there seemed to be danger of protesters breaking in at this one?) and reading how he was a regular at these sorts of things. Him being the poster boy of the most prominent event of our stupid coup, the takeover of the Capitol building? Yes, that was definitely a thing I did not see coming.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2021, 11:14 AM

The problem is you can't argue any version of the "It's all our fault because we gave Trump too much attention" argument without arguing that Trump is somehow validated in doing what he is doing because he got so much attention.

Yeah we maybe, in hindsight, shouldn't have given proto-Trumpism so much attention. That still doesn't shift the onus and blame from Trump to us.

And really only in hindsight do we know whether Trump was something that was going to "go away" without attention. Some problems die in the without sunlight, some fester and ooze and come back stronger years later. Attention sanitizes somethings and feeds others.

Thermal · 18th January 2021, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days.

Our intrepid Qanon Shaman is sporting what indeed appears to be roadkill in this winter's insurrectionist fashion lineup. Nicole Miller is scrambling to make rodent headgear all the Congressional rage on the Spring catwalks.

Quote:

With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video..

I don't think they are all stupid. I share the common belief that many are uncompromising Red voters, and will pull that lever for any candidate with an R next to their name. Some are simply anti-all-these-wild-and-crazy-young-folks.

But the Dildo Stormers have to be stupid by definition, IMO. It was just painfully foolish to think that the US government would tolerate what they were trying to do. Maybe some got swept up in the fantasy, and meant no harm. That is stupid too.

Stupid is as stupid does, I've heard. Are you thinking that anything about the Storming showed good thinking? Not seeing that.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2021, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Yes, there are people who are otherwise successful but whom otherwise support. But, if a person is so.. gullible/foolish that they would vote for/support someone who is such an obvious fraud as Trump... that's a pretty big blind spot that they have in their intellect.

And here I'll take acbyTesla's side, and say that Trump supporters don't have to be stupid.

Some of them are just Republicans. They have values. They have opinions. Trump is closer to those opinions than Biden is. They don't like Trump very much, but he's better than a Democrat. That doesn't mean they are fooled into believing Trump is anything other than a fraud. It just means they don't think his fraud is as important as low taxes, or whatever their pet issue is.

Among those people there are even people who like Trump a lot better than other Republicans, because Trump had the conviction to plow ahead with policies in the face of opposition.

So, I would say that if you can't see that he is a fraud, that's a blind spot. If you can see the fraud, but figure it is tolerable, or perhaps even beneficial, in you getting what you want, then that's just being a Republican. It doesn't mean you are stupid.

But that guy in the video looking through a Senator's notebook and being certain that there was going to be dirt that he could use against those scummy Senators? He's just dump as a stump.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2021, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Stupid is as stupid does, I've heard. Are you thinking that anything about the Storming showed good thinking? Not seeing that.

I don't imagine there were many, if any, bright people who entered the Capitol with the crowd. I don't think all Trump supporters are like the people on the Mall that day.

But I was struck by how few of them actually entered the Senate chamber. There were a handful, even as video taken at the same time showed hundreds of people roaming the halls nearby. I think a lot of the crowd may have decided that going into the Senate Chamber was going just a little bit too far. They thought they could get away with just being in the building, but they realized entering the actual Senate chamber was crossing a line, which showed some measure of intelligence.

The ones who actually went in? They were dumb as stumps.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2021, 11:29 AM

*Loud cough* So let me get this straight. A bunch of stupid people just keep being stupid and you can neither reason with them (because they are stupid) or just call them stupid (because that is mean) but also they are like... doing a lot of damage and we can't just ignore them.

WOW IF ONLY THERE WAS A MOVEMENT OR SOMETHING THAT TRIED TO WARN US THIS WOULD HAPPEN!

Meadmaker · 18th January 2021, 11:29 AM

I suppose that even when I say "Trump supporters", there are a couple of different definitions. There is anyone who voted for Trump. There is anyone who thought Trump was a really good President. Finally, there are people who thought, and may still think, that Donald Trump is the rightfully elected President of the United States and that Joe Biden is a usurper who stole the election.

It's easy to be intelligent and vote for Trump. It's not quite as easy to be intelligent and thing that Trump was actually a good President. It's awfully hard to believe that Trump won the election, but it was stolen. That last category is filled mostly by the low IQ crowd.

ETA: And, with respect to that last category, those who pretend to be in it in order to manipulate the stupid people.

Apathia · 18th January 2021, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction.

My grandmother taught me, "The Good Book says, 'Be kind to dumb animals.'"

Thermal · 18th January 2021, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

My grandmother taught me, "The Good Book says, 'Be kind to dumb animals.'"

...and to those who inexplicably wear them on their heads.

Segnosaur · 18th January 2021, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

And here I'll take acbyTesla's side, and say that Trump supporters don't have to be stupid.

Some of them are just Republicans. They have values. They have opinions. Trump is closer to those opinions than Biden is. They don't like Trump very much, but he's better than a Democrat. That doesn't mean they are fooled into believing Trump is anything other than a fraud. It just means they don't think his fraud is as important as low taxes, or whatever their pet issue is.

But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is?

Republicans have traditionally been pro-free trade. They have generally been in favor of the use of the American military. Trump appears to be opposed to many of the values that these republicans had previously professed.

As for Taxes... yes, Trump and the republicans cut taxes. But the cuts heavily favored the wealthy. Poor/middle class people didn't really benefit. (And its even worse for many of them after covid-19). If middle/lower class people are sticking with Trump because "they love them some tax cuts", even though those tax cuts aren't helping them, that's also a form of stupidity.

Perhaps having anti-abortion supreme court judges might be a reason to have supported Trump. But then, the majority of Republicans actually want to see Roe v. Wade left in place. So these republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2021, 11:59 AM

This is going to be very not easy to put into words.

Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record.

We're making the wrong distinction. It's not between smart and stupid, if such a thing could even really be put into words, it between politics driven politics and politics driven by things that aren't politics.

It's a huge mistake to look at a phenomenon like Trump and go "I don't understand these people's politics."

Trump is not a political entity in the same way Obama, Clinton, the Bushes, or even Reagan was.

This is, largely not completely obviously (again caveat already entered into record, don't @ me) but largely not a political movement. It's a movement against politics. And even that's over-simplifying it.

It's a movement against a bitter, cynical, nihilistic strawman version of politics.

Mike! · 18th January 2021, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

You think Davy Crockett, I think Dan'l Boone. My brother and I belonged to the Fess Parker Fan Club and we each received a genuine imitation coonskin cap. Davy Crockett is maybe more on topic but I think Fess Parker played them both, so that works too.

I sure hope the hats were fake. Hate to think they were real!

Looks like we're both right!

https://www.amazon.com/Davy-Crockett...a-599209975804

tyr_13 · 18th January 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is?

Republicans have traditionally been pro-free trade. They have generally been in favor of the use of the American military. Trump appears to be opposed to many of the values that these republicans had previously professed.

As for Taxes... yes, Trump and the republicans cut taxes. But the cuts heavily favored the wealthy. Poor/middle class people didn't really benefit. (And its even worse for many of them after covid-19). If middle/lower class people are sticking with Trump because "they love them some tax cuts", even though those tax cuts aren't helping them, that's also a form of stupidity.

Perhaps having anti-abortion supreme court judges might be a reason to have supported Trump. But then, the majority of Republicans actually want to see Roe v. Wade left in place. So these republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want.

Most Republican voters don't understand Republican policy preferences.

We have a large portion of the US public that not only doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to policy differences, but also don't know what they are talking about with many issues of objective reality.

Moreover, there is no way to communicate this to them because the very act of doing that will be defined as condescension, elitism, and be dismissed as coming from 'the fake news media'.

There is little difference between this level of ignorance and malice.

Thermal · 18th January 2021, 12:03 PM

Not against politics, but at right angles to it. Trumps followers care not a whit for governance. They care about social power and influence on the street

tyr_13 · 18th January 2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is going to be very not easy to put into words.

Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record.

We're making the wrong distinction. It's not between smart and stupid, if such a thing could even really be put into words, it between politics driven politics and politics driven by things that aren't politics.

It's a huge mistake to look at a phenomenon like Trump and go "I don't understand these people's politics."

Trump is not a political entity in the same way Obama, Clinton, the Bushes, or even Reagan was.

This is, largely not completely obviously (again caveat already entered into record, don't @ me) but largely not a political movement. It's a movement against politics. And even that's over-simplifying it.

It's a movement against a bitter, cynical, nihilistic strawman version of politics.

It is a pure version of tribal identity politics.

'We're right because we're the good ones, and we're good because we're on the right side. Anything we do is good, and everyone on our side is good because it is who we are.'

If they don't identify you as 'us' (Republican) then you're wrong because you're not one of the good guys. This is also why 'RINO' are even more at risk of violence for their betrayal.

Monza · 18th January 2021, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I suppose that even when I say "Trump supporters", there are a couple of different definitions. There is anyone who voted for Trump. There is anyone who thought Trump was a really good President. Finally, there are people who thought, and may still think, that Donald Trump is the rightfully elected President of the United States and that Joe Biden is a usurper who stole the election.

It's easy to be intelligent and vote for Trump. It's not quite as easy to be intelligent and thing that Trump was actually a good President. It's awfully hard to believe that Trump won the election, but it was stolen. That last category is filled mostly by the low IQ crowd.

ETA: And, with respect to that last category, those who pretend to be in it in order to manipulate the stupid people.

Read on Twitter: There's a reason they don't call it IQ-Anon.

ponderingturtle · 18th January 2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is?
se republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want.

Their real values not the ones they pretend to hold for the sake of argument. The consolidating of wealth in the worthwhile classes and using white supremacy to maintain power. Once you see the goals as furthering wealth inequality and white supremacy it becomes easy for an intelligent person to favor Trump.

They might be morally bankrupt but that doesn't make them stupid. They know what they want and Trump really was effective at getting that.

The Great Zaganza · 18th January 2021, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is going to be very not easy to put into words.

Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record....

People currently support Trump for the same reason some people have always supported Trump: initially they think that he can get them something they couldn't otherwise, and when they have wasted too much time and resources on him they support him out of a sunken-cost fallacy.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2021, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is going to be very not easy to put into words.

Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record.

Indeed.

But I want to enter my own statement into the record, again.

When I commented that the people who were featured in a video taken in the Senate chamber were stupid, that comment was not based on their political beliefs. It was based on their use of grammar and language and their inability to form coherent thought into words.

They were morons.

dudalb · 18th January 2021, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo.

Petty Borugeoisie?
Long time since I heard that one.
Your hatred for the Middle Class is showing....

catsmate · 18th January 2021, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Given that you have that experience, what do you think would be a good approach to, for example, getting Trump supporters to accept that the evidence for widespread electoral fraud is somewhere between inadequate and nonexistent?

Dave

Mass lobotomies?

catsmate · 18th January 2021, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo.

Lenin wouldn't want the Trumpists except as useful idiots.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th January 2021, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Petty Borugeoisie?
Long time since I heard that one.
Your hatred for the Middle Class is showing....

#NotAllMiddleClass

You don't think it's noteworthy that so many of our capitol hill invaders are well-to-do professionals with a lot of lose? Normally you don't expect so many white collar professionals to become violent felons overnight en masse. People that ought to be enjoying their retirement or golfing at country clubs are now looking to spend time in a federal prison.

catsmate · 18th January 2021, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see.

"Remember a bunch of udiotic, incompetent slave-owners".

ponderingturtle · 18th January 2021, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

"Remember a bunch of udiotic, incompetent slave-owners".

We are supposed to remember the Alamo not the causes for it.

jimbob · 18th January 2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Mass lobotomies?

And how would that help?

If one could reverse lobotomies, that might be better.

jimbob · 18th January 2021, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

#NotAllMiddleClass

You don't think it's noteworthy that so many of our capitol hill invaders are well-to-do professionals with a lot of lose? Normally you don't expect so many white collar professionals to become violent felons overnight en masse. People that ought to be enjoying their retirement or golfing at country clubs are now looking to spend time in a federal prison.

Ah...

Originally Posted by catsmate

"Remember a bunch of udiotic, incompetent slave-owners".

Vixen · 18th January 2021, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

It's the sheer anaracy that scares me in the New Yorker video.
And those shots of Qanon Shaman in Pence's chair will not help him since he has been portraying himself as just somebody who got caught up in the mob.not as a leader. Sure looked like some sort of a leader in that video.

In the mass Parler dump there are numerous shots of him screaming, 'Freedom!' He even brags that he just walked out and 'We won!'

Because he is highly articulate and cuts an ultra self-confident figure people seemed drawn to him as they echo-ed his ridiculous roars and took videos of his strutting around the place like he owned it.

Vixen · 18th January 2021, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

If you want to understand how and why Trump was elected you cannot disregard over a decade of PR and marketing that the production company and networks put into The Apprentice and Trump. They created the character that was elected - the hugely successful businessman, who speaks his mind, has a no nonsense approach, takes no prisoners, billionaire mogul, without that he would have had no chance to be elected.

Of course he is stupid and if you ever truly wonder how literally stupid Trump is I think no story illustrates it better than this one: https://theweek.com/speedreads/78589...med-apprentice

The strangest thing is that after about twenty episodes (which I confess I was glued to) and his choosing Lil John as the winner, the other day, he swore blind he had never heard of Lil John. Of course, it was the producers who scripted him and chose the winners, otherwise all the ethnic minorities would have been out pronto. [Just having a quiet giggle at the bust up between Meatloaf and Gary Busey. It was good television.]

Vixen · 18th January 2021, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

The insanity is exemplified during the scene where the guys on the floor are rifling through Cruz's papers, and in the background you can hear Horned Shaman singing something up in the gallery.

There is one really insane Parler download (see around 4:27pm) some guy is invited by a quasi interviewer to describe what he saw of the shooting. The dude full face to the camera describes being eight feet away and seeing her get a plastic bullet in the chest and a bullet in the neck, 'with blood all pouring out of her back' <fx does an impersonation of her flopping about backwards>. The interviewer says can I pray for you? The guy takes off his hat [even better for FBI to identify him!] and bends his head as a patronising prayer asking Jesus to hold him in his hands and help heal the terrible trauma he has just suffered, is adlibbed by the Parler devotee.

Only in America...

Delvo · 18th January 2021, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

#NotAllMiddleClass

You don't think it's noteworthy that so many of our capitol hill invaders are well-to-do professionals with a lot {to} lose? Normally you don't expect so many white collar professionals to become violent felons overnight en masse. People that ought to be enjoying their retirement or golfing at country clubs are now looking to spend time in a federal prison.

It's seldom been the poorest people in any society who rebel against it. Those with nothing to lose have nothing to gamble with.

18th January 2021, 09:46 AM	#1361
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,853	I'm not saying these people are stupid or morons, just that they lack in capacity to participate in a representational democracy. (even if it represented their own privileged interests)
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

18th January 2021, 09:57 AM	#1363
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,581	Originally Posted by Delvo Another way in which many Democrats behave as if their goal is to keep losing & failing indefinitely. The Democrats lose, and they try to play off their losses as being too good to play the game, therefore they get a moral victory, therefore they never really feel like they lost, so they never adjust their actions.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

18th January 2021, 10:09 AM	#1364
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 14,087	Originally Posted by Apathia I'm not saying these people are stupid or morons, just that they lack in capacity to participate in a representational democracy. (even if it represented their own privileged interests) I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

18th January 2021, 10:18 AM	#1365
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction. What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days. With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video..
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

18th January 2021, 10:20 AM	#1366
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 40,702	Originally Posted by Meadmaker What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days. With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video.. I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." Last edited by Mike!; 18th January 2021 at 10:23 AM.

18th January 2021, 09:55 AM	#1362
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,367	Originally Posted by cosmicaug They are not just one thing. This "they are just a bunch of dumb hicks" narrative diminishes them and it is, for that reason, extremely dangerous. Another way in which many Democrats behave as if their goal is to keep losing & failing indefinitely.

18th January 2021, 10:34 AM	#1367
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,306	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction. It's difficult to deprogram someone with cultish beliefs if you begin by calling them "stupid," especially if they're stupid.
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

18th January 2021, 10:45 AM	#1368
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,365	Originally Posted by acbytesla Quote: So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks. I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump. I guess the question is how you actually define 'dumb/stupid/etc.'. Yes, there are people who are otherwise successful but whom otherwise support. But, if a person is so.. gullible/foolish that they would vote for/support someone who is such an obvious fraud as Trump... that's a pretty big blind spot that they have in their intellect. Quote: But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. The question here is... is it actually possible to 'change hearts and minds' of Trump supporters. They have drunk the kool-aid, and may be forever be unreachable.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

18th January 2021, 10:47 AM	#1369
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,340	Originally Posted by Mike! I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see. You think Davy Crockett, I think Dan'l Boone. My brother and I belonged to the Fess Parker Fan Club and we each received a genuine imitation coonskin cap. Davy Crockett is maybe more on topic but I think Fess Parker played them both, so that works too. I sure hope the hats were fake. Hate to think they were real!

18th January 2021, 11:01 AM	#1370
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,465	Originally Posted by Meadmaker None of those things happened, but instead we ended up with a guy wearing no shirt, a headdress that was some combination of Norse and Native American, with Norse tattoos, babbling in the chair of the President of the Senate, and a small but enthusiastic crowd shouting Amen! I must admit I didn't see that coming. I remember seeing articles & videos about him at some protest in AZ (it may have been the 'the pens they gave us made our votes invisible to the machines' conspiracy protest —do I remember correctly that at one point there seemed to be danger of protesters breaking in at this one?) and reading how he was a regular at these sorts of things. Him being the poster boy of the most prominent event of our stupid coup, the takeover of the Capitol building? Yes, that was definitely a thing I did not see coming.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

18th January 2021, 11:14 AM	#1371
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,581	The problem is you can't argue any version of the "It's all our fault because we gave Trump too much attention" argument without arguing that Trump is somehow validated in doing what he is doing because he got so much attention. Yeah we maybe, in hindsight, shouldn't have given proto-Trumpism so much attention. That still doesn't shift the onus and blame from Trump to us. And really only in hindsight do we know whether Trump was something that was going to "go away" without attention. Some problems die in the without sunlight, some fester and ooze and come back stronger years later. Attention sanitizes somethings and feeds others.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 18th January 2021 at 11:15 AM.

18th January 2021, 11:15 AM	#1372
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 14,087	Originally Posted by Meadmaker What's with the dead raccoons? Did I miss a fashion trend? That's the second reference I've read to dead raccoons in two days. Our intrepid Qanon Shaman is sporting what indeed appears to be roadkill in this winter's insurrectionist fashion lineup. Nicole Miller is scrambling to make rodent headgear all the Congressional rage on the Spring catwalks. Quote: With respect to the "stupid" discussion, I think the danger is in assuming that all Trump supporters are as stupid as the ones in that video.. I don't think they are all stupid. I share the common belief that many are uncompromising Red voters, and will pull that lever for any candidate with an R next to their name. Some are simply anti-all-these-wild-and-crazy-young-folks. But the Dildo Stormers have to be stupid by definition, IMO. It was just painfully foolish to think that the US government would tolerate what they were trying to do. Maybe some got swept up in the fantasy, and meant no harm. That is stupid too. Stupid is as stupid does, I've heard. Are you thinking that anything about the Storming showed good thinking? Not seeing that.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

18th January 2021, 11:21 AM	#1373
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Yes, there are people who are otherwise successful but whom otherwise support. But, if a person is so.. gullible/foolish that they would vote for/support someone who is such an obvious fraud as Trump... that's a pretty big blind spot that they have in their intellect. And here I'll take acbyTesla's side, and say that Trump supporters don't have to be stupid. Some of them are just Republicans. They have values. They have opinions. Trump is closer to those opinions than Biden is. They don't like Trump very much, but he's better than a Democrat. That doesn't mean they are fooled into believing Trump is anything other than a fraud. It just means they don't think his fraud is as important as low taxes, or whatever their pet issue is. Among those people there are even people who like Trump a lot better than other Republicans, because Trump had the conviction to plow ahead with policies in the face of opposition. So, I would say that if you can't see that he is a fraud, that's a blind spot. If you can see the fraud, but figure it is tolerable, or perhaps even beneficial, in you getting what you want, then that's just being a Republican. It doesn't mean you are stupid. But that guy in the video looking through a Senator's notebook and being certain that there was going to be dirt that he could use against those scummy Senators? He's just dump as a stump.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

18th January 2021, 11:26 AM	#1374
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by Thermal Stupid is as stupid does, I've heard. Are you thinking that anything about the Storming showed good thinking? Not seeing that. I don't imagine there were many, if any, bright people who entered the Capitol with the crowd. I don't think all Trump supporters are like the people on the Mall that day. But I was struck by how few of them actually entered the Senate chamber. There were a handful, even as video taken at the same time showed hundreds of people roaming the halls nearby. I think a lot of the crowd may have decided that going into the Senate Chamber was going just a little bit too far. They thought they could get away with just being in the building, but they realized entering the actual Senate chamber was crossing a line, which showed some measure of intelligence. The ones who actually went in? They were dumb as stumps.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

18th January 2021, 11:29 AM	#1375
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,581	Loud cough So let me get this straight. A bunch of stupid people just keep being stupid and you can neither reason with them (because they are stupid) or just call them stupid (because that is mean) but also they are like... doing a lot of damage and we can't just ignore them. WOW IF ONLY THERE WAS A MOVEMENT OR SOMETHING THAT TRIED TO WARN US THIS WOULD HAPPEN!
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

18th January 2021, 11:29 AM	#1376
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	I suppose that even when I say "Trump supporters", there are a couple of different definitions. There is anyone who voted for Trump. There is anyone who thought Trump was a really good President. Finally, there are people who thought, and may still think, that Donald Trump is the rightfully elected President of the United States and that Joe Biden is a usurper who stole the election. It's easy to be intelligent and vote for Trump. It's not quite as easy to be intelligent and thing that Trump was actually a good President. It's awfully hard to believe that Trump won the election, but it was stolen. That last category is filled mostly by the low IQ crowd. ETA: And, with respect to that last category, those who pretend to be in it in order to manipulate the stupid people.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information? Last edited by Meadmaker; 18th January 2021 at 11:36 AM.

18th January 2021, 11:32 AM	#1377
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,853	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm gonna go ahead and call them stupid. It's the intellectual elitist in me that pooh-poohs the wearing of dead raccoons and murder as a means of expressing political dissatisfaction. My grandmother taught me, "The Good Book says, 'Be kind to dumb animals.'"
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown Last edited by Apathia; 18th January 2021 at 11:35 AM.

18th January 2021, 11:38 AM	#1378
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 14,087	Originally Posted by Apathia My grandmother taught me, "The Good Book says, 'Be kind to dumb animals.'" ...and to those who inexplicably wear them on their heads.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

18th January 2021, 11:52 AM	#1379
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,365	Originally Posted by Meadmaker And here I'll take acbyTesla's side, and say that Trump supporters don't have to be stupid. Some of them are just Republicans. They have values. They have opinions. Trump is closer to those opinions than Biden is. They don't like Trump very much, but he's better than a Democrat. That doesn't mean they are fooled into believing Trump is anything other than a fraud. It just means they don't think his fraud is as important as low taxes, or whatever their pet issue is. But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is? Republicans have traditionally been pro-free trade. They have generally been in favor of the use of the American military. Trump appears to be opposed to many of the values that these republicans had previously professed. As for Taxes... yes, Trump and the republicans cut taxes. But the cuts heavily favored the wealthy. Poor/middle class people didn't really benefit. (And its even worse for many of them after covid-19). If middle/lower class people are sticking with Trump because "they love them some tax cuts", even though those tax cuts aren't helping them, that's also a form of stupidity. Perhaps having anti-abortion supreme court judges might be a reason to have supported Trump. But then, the majority of Republicans actually want to see Roe v. Wade left in place. So these republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

18th January 2021, 11:59 AM	#1380
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,581	This is going to be very not easy to put into words. Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record. We're making the wrong distinction. It's not between smart and stupid, if such a thing could even really be put into words, it between politics driven politics and politics driven by things that aren't politics. It's a huge mistake to look at a phenomenon like Trump and go "I don't understand these people's politics." Trump is not a political entity in the same way Obama, Clinton, the Bushes, or even Reagan was. This is, largely not completely obviously (again caveat already entered into record, don't @ me) but largely not a political movement. It's a movement against politics. And even that's over-simplifying it. It's a movement against a bitter, cynical, nihilistic strawman version of politics.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

18th January 2021, 12:01 PM	#1381
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 40,702	Originally Posted by Minoosh You think Davy Crockett, I think Dan'l Boone. My brother and I belonged to the Fess Parker Fan Club and we each received a genuine imitation coonskin cap. Davy Crockett is maybe more on topic but I think Fess Parker played them both, so that works too. I sure hope the hats were fake. Hate to think they were real! Looks like we're both right! https://www.amazon.com/Davy-Crockett...a-599209975804
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

18th January 2021, 12:03 PM	#1382
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 16,460	Originally Posted by Segnosaur But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is? Republicans have traditionally been pro-free trade. They have generally been in favor of the use of the American military. Trump appears to be opposed to many of the values that these republicans had previously professed. As for Taxes... yes, Trump and the republicans cut taxes. But the cuts heavily favored the wealthy. Poor/middle class people didn't really benefit. (And its even worse for many of them after covid-19). If middle/lower class people are sticking with Trump because "they love them some tax cuts", even though those tax cuts aren't helping them, that's also a form of stupidity. Perhaps having anti-abortion supreme court judges might be a reason to have supported Trump. But then, the majority of Republicans actually want to see Roe v. Wade left in place. So these republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want. Most Republican voters don't understand Republican policy preferences. We have a large portion of the US public that not only doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to policy differences, but also don't know what they are talking about with many issues of objective reality. Moreover, there is no way to communicate this to them because the very act of doing that will be defined as condescension, elitism, and be dismissed as coming from 'the fake news media'. There is little difference between this level of ignorance and malice.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

18th January 2021, 12:03 PM	#1383
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 14,087	Not against politics, but at right angles to it. Trumps followers care not a whit for governance. They care about social power and influence on the street
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

18th January 2021, 12:06 PM	#1384
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 16,460	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is going to be very not easy to put into words. Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record. We're making the wrong distinction. It's not between smart and stupid, if such a thing could even really be put into words, it between politics driven politics and politics driven by things that aren't politics. It's a huge mistake to look at a phenomenon like Trump and go "I don't understand these people's politics." Trump is not a political entity in the same way Obama, Clinton, the Bushes, or even Reagan was. This is, largely not completely obviously (again caveat already entered into record, don't @ me) but largely not a political movement. It's a movement against politics. And even that's over-simplifying it. It's a movement against a bitter, cynical, nihilistic strawman version of politics. It is a pure version of tribal identity politics. 'We're right because we're the good ones, and we're good because we're on the right side. Anything we do is good, and everyone on our side is good because it is who we are.' If they don't identify you as 'us' (Republican) then you're wrong because you're not one of the good guys. This is also why 'RINO' are even more at risk of violence for their betrayal.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

18th January 2021, 12:09 PM	#1385
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,221	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I suppose that even when I say "Trump supporters", there are a couple of different definitions. There is anyone who voted for Trump. There is anyone who thought Trump was a really good President. Finally, there are people who thought, and may still think, that Donald Trump is the rightfully elected President of the United States and that Joe Biden is a usurper who stole the election. It's easy to be intelligent and vote for Trump. It's not quite as easy to be intelligent and thing that Trump was actually a good President. It's awfully hard to believe that Trump won the election, but it was stolen. That last category is filled mostly by the low IQ crowd. ETA: And, with respect to that last category, those who pretend to be in it in order to manipulate the stupid people. Read on Twitter: There's a reason they don't call it IQ-Anon.
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,221

18th January 2021, 12:10 PM	#1386
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,761	Originally Posted by Segnosaur But was Trump really closer to their values than Biden or Clinton is? se republicans are voting for a guy who's doing something they don't want. Their real values not the ones they pretend to hold for the sake of argument. The consolidating of wealth in the worthwhile classes and using white supremacy to maintain power. Once you see the goals as furthering wealth inequality and white supremacy it becomes easy for an intelligent person to favor Trump. They might be morally bankrupt but that doesn't make them stupid. They know what they want and Trump really was effective at getting that.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th January 2021, 12:11 PM	#1387
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,878	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is going to be very not easy to put into words. Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record.... People currently support Trump for the same reason some people have always supported Trump: initially they think that he can get them something they couldn't otherwise, and when they have wasted too much time and resources on him they support him out of a sunken-cost fallacy.
	__________________ The things that you're liable To read in the Bible It ain't necessarily so

18th January 2021, 12:23 PM	#1388
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,543	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is going to be very not easy to put into words. Obvious caveat; Trump Supporters are not a homogeneous Borg collective they, even on an individual level, don't have one singular, consistent reason for supporting Trump. Caveat entered into the record. Indeed. But I want to enter my own statement into the record, again. When I commented that the people who were featured in a video taken in the Senate chamber were stupid, that comment was not based on their political beliefs. It was based on their use of grammar and language and their inability to form coherent thought into words. They were morons.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

18th January 2021, 12:38 PM	#1389
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,618	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo. Petty Borugeoisie? Long time since I heard that one. Your hatred for the Middle Class is showing....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

18th January 2021, 01:32 PM	#1390
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,354	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Given that you have that experience, what do you think would be a good approach to, for example, getting Trump supporters to accept that the evidence for widespread electoral fraud is somewhere between inadequate and nonexistent? Dave Mass lobotomies?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th January 2021, 01:34 PM	#1391
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,354	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo. Lenin wouldn't want the Trumpists except as useful idiots.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th January 2021, 01:36 PM	#1392
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,560	Originally Posted by dudalb Petty Borugeoisie? Long time since I heard that one. Your hatred for the Middle Class is showing.... #NotAllMiddleClass You don't think it's noteworthy that so many of our capitol hill invaders are well-to-do professionals with a lot of lose? Normally you don't expect so many white collar professionals to become violent felons overnight en masse. People that ought to be enjoying their retirement or golfing at country clubs are now looking to spend time in a federal prison.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th January 2021 at 01:38 PM.

18th January 2021, 01:38 PM	#1393
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,354	Originally Posted by Mike! I'm thinking a couple few of the Capitol aggressors were wearing Davy Crockett style racoon skin caps. You know, that whole, "Remember the Alamo!" , line of thought kind of thing. It's the only "logical" conclusion I can see. "Remember a bunch of udiotic, incompetent slave-owners".
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th January 2021, 01:52 PM	#1394
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,761	Originally Posted by catsmate "Remember a bunch of udiotic, incompetent slave-owners". We are supposed to remember the Alamo not the causes for it.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th January 2021, 02:03 PM	#1395
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,920	Originally Posted by catsmate Mass lobotomies? And how would that help? If one could reverse lobotomies, that might be better.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending