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Old 14th January 2021, 10:26 PM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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We need a second Reconstruction

Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:32 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
Errrm.... I think this is on the extreme side.

Also, we are not talking about something that is confined to the south. How many crazy people does Trump (not a southerner) attract from Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, New York etc...?4

Besides, are you going to punish Georgia too?
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:45 PM   #3
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the guy with the confederate flag was from delaware
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Old 15th January 2021, 12:13 AM   #4
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You mean Third Reconsturction.
The Years 1954 to 1970 the years of the Civil Rights movement.. have been termed "Second Recontruction" by most Historians.
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Old 15th January 2021, 12:13 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
Thing is this time it's not just a Southern Problem.
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
Problem is that this isn't a North/South thing this time, it's a Rural/Urban thing. Go and look at a map of how each of the counties voted, and you'll find that the vast amount of area is red because rural counties have less population to their area than urban ones.
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:37 AM   #7
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There are MAGA freaks in significant numbers in every state in this country. There are no clean geographical lines to this threat.

Even firmly "blue" states have deeply reactionary elements. The populations of the big city may prevent them from ever seizing state power through the electoral process, but their numbers are not insignificant.

Proud Boys are extremely active in California, for example. The whole state is not LA and San Fran.
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:43 AM   #8
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A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is what is needed, just to create a common baseline.
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Old 15th January 2021, 07:23 AM   #9
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This kind of thing will be possible only everything - and I mean everything, including any hypothetical period of USA being authoritarian state - will be over. May take decades, if not more.
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Old 15th January 2021, 08:14 AM   #10
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It's not "the South" or "rural areas". Those are just specific areas where we are looking. Portland is neither southern nor rural. Brooklyn is neither southern nor rural.

There are deep issues of race and class all over the country. from the smallest holler to the largest cities. We keep going after specific individuals or events, make some sort of symbolic change that barely qualifies and cosmetic, and then pat ourselves on the back. We keep missing the forrest for the trees. Division is entrenched in our society. to call it systemic desn't even cover it.
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Old 15th January 2021, 10:07 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is what is needed, just to create a common baseline.
Pipe dream. We need justice, not "reconciliation".
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Old 15th January 2021, 10:09 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
This kind of thing will be possible only everything - and I mean everything, including any hypothetical period of USA being authoritarian state - will be over. May take decades, if not more.
Everything means "The US is over" to you.

Someone cuts you off in traffic "The US is over!"

Spill the milk "The US is over!"

Stub your toe "The US is over!"
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Old 15th January 2021, 10:16 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You mean Third Reconsturction.
The Years 1954 to 1970 the years of the Civil Rights movement.. have been termed "Second Recontruction" by most Historians.
Reconstruction version 3.0
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Old 15th January 2021, 11:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Everything means "The US is over" to you.

Someone cuts you off in traffic "The US is over!"

Spill the milk "The US is over!"

Stub your toe "The US is over!"
Don't be so butthurt. It is too late for peaceful solution. Situation will escalate further, be it in 4 days or 4 years.

If you think I am saying that because I want it to happen, well. You are mistaken, not that you will believe me.
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Old 15th January 2021, 11:43 AM   #15
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I live in western New York. It is strongly 'conservative' (read: reality denying reactionary clown shoes). This is despite all the money we get from NYC and the benefits the state gives us that is plainly obvious from the PA boarder being so close. This is despite the 'voting with your boots' that is made much easier with that boarder being so close, and making the PA towns there even more red. Indeed many people do move just over there to escape the 'nanny state' of New York and all the 'job killing regulations forcing businesses out of New York', they say every day as they commute back here to work at the more plentiful and successful businesses. This is despite the two small cities that are blue, each with their own heavily blue universities.

And my county is still red. My county still has people who work for New York aid programs, whose very jobs are created by New York programs helping poor people (who still complain about New York 'taxes and welfare queens' while they are getting free house repairs done) who vote for the people who have promised to remove their jobs. Who have promised to remove their healthcare. Who literally run medical debt collections companies!

This isn't a north/south issue. We have coddled people who deny basic reality with the handwaves of 'opinion' and 'right to free speech', letting them think their beliefs are just as valid as your facts.

It is the entire skeptical v woo fight on a national party scale.
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Old 15th January 2021, 12:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
It is too late for peaceful solution.
At least the reeducation camps will be filled with people who know how to pitch a tent.



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Old 15th January 2021, 01:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
Where are you getting the idea this is a southern thing? Just because some of the deplorables are toting the Confederate flag? When trump won in 2016 it was 'rustbelt' states that put him over the top. Georgia on the other hand gave the Democrats the Senate in 2020.
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Old 15th January 2021, 01:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Just because some of the deplorables are toting the Confederate flag?
One of whom, again for those not listening, was from Delaware.
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Old 15th January 2021, 02:13 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
One of whom, again for those not listening, was from Delaware.
OK. Why do find that significant? Delaware didn't secede but it was a slave state and some citizens fought for the Confederacy.
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Old 15th January 2021, 02:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
OK. Why do find that significant? Delaware didn't secede but it was a slave state and some citizens fought for the Confederacy.
because it's not southern
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
As others have pointed out, this is far beyond just "the south" - eg. Michigan, Oregon, rural New York.

Much better is to, say, let the civil rights division of the DoJ get to work, and pass legislation to reverse remarkably bad Supreme Court decisions like Shelby vs. Holder, which helped gut the VRA.
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:12 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Don't be so butthurt. It is too late for peaceful solution. Situation will escalate further, be it in 4 days or 4 years.

If you think I am saying that because I want it to happen, well. You are mistaken, not that you will believe me.
No, it's not too late for a peaceful solution. However, it also requires that the GOP leadership are willing to play their part in ending the tension, and considering that they have spent the past 28 years doing exactly the opposite, I have to admit that I'm not holding my breath.

Bad Actors such as Jordan, Sessions, Brooks, and Gaetz, along with the likes of McConnell and Graham, need to come out and categorically tell the Trumpers that Trump has been lying to them, and that the election was won by Biden, that it was fair, and that there really is no evidence of massive fraud, and that the claimed evidence was manufactured by Guillani and his fellows or just outright lies and the courts were right to reject it.

They can go on about healing and Unity all they like, but as long as Republican politicians support and approve Trump's actions and refuse to tell the truth and repudiate his lies, then all they are doing is building the divide further, and then it will be too late.

Democrats can't solve this situation. The only ones that can stop it are those that have been fostering it for the past three decades and continue to do so with their lies and manipulations of their supporters.
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
because it's not southern
m'kay. That hardly seems worth repeating multiples times, especially since it's not even entirely true, especially in terms of just a single person carrying the Confederate flag. Delaware was a border state. It split heavily Union apparently but even so it seems a 1,000 people from Delaware probably fought for the South (probably ten times that many for the North).
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, it's not too late for a peaceful solution. However, it also requires that the GOP leadership are willing to play their part in ending the tension, and considering that they have spent the past 28 years doing exactly the opposite, I have to admit that I'm not holding my breath.
No amount of words from the Treasonous GOP matter at this point. By their actions, they have shown themselves to be enemies of the United States.

Quote:
Bad Actors such as Jordan, Sessions, Brooks, and Gaetz, along with the likes of McConnell and Graham, need to come out and categorically tell the Trumpers that Trump has been lying to them, and that the election was won by Biden, that it was fair, and that there really is no evidence of massive fraud, and that the claimed evidence was manufactured by Guillani and his fellows or just outright lies and the courts were right to reject it.
Your problem is that you are framing the issue as one of "bad actors" rather than a governing philosophy that is fundamentally incompatable with human progress and/or a just society.

Quote:
They can go on about healing and Unity all they like, but as long as Republican politicians support and approve Trump's actions and refuse to tell the truth and repudiate his lies, then all they are doing is building the divide further, and then it will be too late.
Trump is giving them license to say and do what they have ALWAYS wanted to say and do. Trump is a symptom of the Regressive virus.

Quote:
Democrats can't solve this situation. The only ones that can stop it are those that have been fostering it for the past three decades and continue to do so with their lies and manipulations of their supporters.
Democrats CAN fix this, by learning the lesson the GOP has learned and ruthlessly exploiting every legal loophole they can find and nakedly using their current dominance to suppress the GOP at every opportunity. And fear of violence be danged. They have the government and the government has the military. Use both as needed until no GOP dares to do anyting like this ever again.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Don't be so butthurt. It is too late for peaceful solution. Situation will escalate further, be it in 4 days or 4 years.

If you think I am saying that because I want it to happen, well. You are mistaken, not that you will believe me.
This is "You can't get there from here". Then what are the options? Full-scale civil war? There's no point simply bemoaning a bad situation, what are people to do about it?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th January 2021, 07:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
m'kay. That hardly seems worth repeating multiples times, especially since it's not even entirely true, especially in terms of just a single person carrying the Confederate flag. Delaware was a border state. It split heavily Union apparently but even so it seems a 1,000 people from Delaware probably fought for the South (probably ten times that many for the North).
is Delaware in the south?

edit

To clarify I think trying to frame this as a southern problem is incorrect is the objection, pointing out people are from all over the US that were there is evidence of that, such as Delaware.

Last edited by dirtywick; 15th January 2021 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 15th January 2021, 08:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
is Delaware in the south?
By some definitions. I'll come back to this.

Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
To clarify I think trying to frame this as a southern problem is incorrect is the objection, pointing out people are from all over the US that were there is evidence of that, such as Delaware.
I agree. This is not a southern problem, that's from a century and half ago. This is rural vs city issue and I believe that is largely a proxy for fundamentalist vs not.

Delaware is southern by a number of definitions. The census defines it as southern. It was a slave state in transition at the time of the Civil war.
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Old 16th January 2021, 05:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Once we put down this insurrection, we need to totally tear down the South on every level (social, political, economic) and rebuild it the way Germany did after WWII. They knew how to deal with their fascist problem, and knocked it back under it's rock for most of a century.
Careful, your bigotry is showing....
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Old 16th January 2021, 05:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is "You can't get there from here". Then what are the options? Full-scale civil war? There's no point simply bemoaning a bad situation, what are people to do about it?
The next time the PBs/3%ers/etc show up and start their crap, put 'em in the ground. Go after every last one of them that can be identified. Full public criminal trials for all GOP enablers before Treason executions.
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Old 16th January 2021, 05:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Careful, your bigotry is showing....
How is it bigoted? Germany did it RIGHT after the war by outlawing the people who started the war and teaching their kids and grandkids to be ashamed of what happened.
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Old 16th January 2021, 08:22 AM   #31
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It is too much to hope that at some point, it might occur to everyone that the people who believe the other political side is evil are the problem, whether they are conservatives trying to "stop the steal" or liberals suggesting entire sections of the country be punished.
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Old 16th January 2021, 08:49 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Careful, your bigotry is showing....
It's okay to hate some people.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Everything means "The US is over" to you.

Someone cuts you off in traffic "The US is over!"

Spill the milk "The US is over!"

Stub your toe "The US is over!"
But saying so is so cooL. and it's hip to be full of hopeless angst.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Careful, your bigotry is showing....
BTW, what do you think of Trumpsters trying to stage a coup and killing cops?
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:35 PM   #35
dudalb
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is "You can't get there from here". Then what are the options? Full-scale civil war? There's no point simply bemoaning a bad situation, what are people to do about it?
But, hey to be full of angst and despair is so cool and hip!
I think you you are going to see alot of right wing violence, but situation is not hopeless.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 16th January 2021 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
How is it bigoted? Germany did it RIGHT after the war by outlawing the people who started the war and teaching their kids and grandkids to be ashamed of what happened.
The fact that I'd have to explain it to you is a defining example. If you honestly have no idea how your statement was bigoted I'd suggest a step back and view thru the eyes of a third party. The fact you purposely omitted the part about punishing the South suggests you know what was improper. If you want to play the bigot, at least own it.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's okay to hate some people.
That was Hitler's feeling as well.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW, what do you think of Trumpsters trying to stage a coup and killing cops?
I think it's terrible if it's true.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I think it's terrible if it's true.
And that right there is your problem..........
It's True beyond any realistic dispute. Only way not to belive it is to buy into whackadoodle conspiracy theories...or get all your news from Right Wing Media...which is pretty much the same thing.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 16th January 2021 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 16th January 2021, 01:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And that right there is your problem..........
It's True beyond any realistic dispute. Only way not to belive it is to buy into whackadoodle conspiracy theories...or get all your news from Right Wing Media...which is pretty much the same thing.
Where can I view the official investigation report? I didn't know it was out
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Old 16th January 2021, 03:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It is too much to hope that at some point, it might occur to everyone that the people who believe the other political side is evil are the problem, whether they are conservatives trying to "stop the steal" or liberals suggesting entire sections of the country be punished.
note one of those groups has a significant representation in government and the other is a post on a message board
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