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Old 10th February 2021, 07:00 PM   #121
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Not to pick on you since multiple people are saying things like this but can a 30 minute charge actually fully charge any reasonable long range EV?


Multiple sources I see (I'll cite Wikipedia) indicate that a short charge like that won't get you charged back to full range.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station
No. But it will get you back to 80%. The last 20% has to charge slower. You're better off charging to 80% at the Supercharger station and then charge the last 20 percent at home overnight.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:36 PM   #122
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Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.
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Old 10th February 2021, 07:44 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
A Tesla supercharger can apparently get you about 170miles worth of charge in 30 minutes. Not a full charge, but a good chunk. Fully charging takes much longer. For whatever science reason, the last 20% of battery takes significantly longer to charge.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No. But it will get you back to 80%. The last 20% has to charge slower. You're better off charging to 80% at the Supercharger station and then charge the last 20 percent at home overnight.
I'm confused again. I don't think 170 miles is 80% of the range of a Tesla is it? That's about 40% I think. So on a road trip I get to about 400 miles on the first charge and then I have to stop for about 30 minutes every 2.5 hours for the rest of the trip. And I have to find a charging station so that 30 minutes might have to include the time and distance needed to go out of my way to a charging station.
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Old 10th February 2021, 08:31 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.
I've driven a rental on a long drive. You get used to it pretty quick.
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Old 10th February 2021, 08:40 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Hey now, some of us plan on seeing in the twenty-second century.
Think about where transport technology was 80 years ago. In another 80 years people will look back at discussions like this and laugh at our quibbling and lack of foresight.

In the early days of gas cars people worried about where to get fuel. This was a much bigger problem than providing electricity for EVs because as well as gas stations it required massive refineries, transport, and storage facilities, and of course deep wells to get the oil out of the ground. A huge amount of investment was required, which continues today. In comparison to that, running some power cables to parking spaces and installing charging sockets is chickenfeed.

Originally Posted by crescent
The Leaf's in general have much worse thermal management than other EVs and plug-in hybrids. That makes their batteries wear out much, much faster than Telsa or GM or other common EV brands.
To be clear, early Leafs had no thermal management in their batteries. But my Leaf is 10 years old and even though the battery is getting tired it doesn't heat up significantly while driving. Overheating can be a problem on long trips with frequent fast charges without a cooling down period. Those of who use Lithium batteries in other high power applications know about this and treat them accordingly.

In hot climates some Leaf owners experienced rapid battery degradation. Once again this was largely caused by ignorance. Lithium batteries degrade faster when hotter and when fully charged. People were combining both conditions by fully charging and leaving the car out in the hot sun all day.

It doesn't get very cold where I live, but I have driven in temperatures below freezing with no apparent effect - because I know what happens when a battery is cold so I drive gently for the first few miles to let it warm up. And of course I keep the car in an attached garage so it never gets too cold. Modern Leafs have heaters in the battery to warm it up, so this isn't an issue.

Newer battery chemistries are coming onto the market that promise higher capacity and longer life. The latest Leafs have a 40kWh battery with the same size and weight as the original 24kWh battery. In 10 years time a latest generation Leaf battery that degraded to 60% would still have more capacity than mine did when new! In another ten years time the next generation battery will be even better. I hope to still be around then...
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Old 10th February 2021, 08:43 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
An electric vehicle would be perfect for my needs, but I have no means to charge it while it's parked behind my apartment, and I park it at a simple paved lot outside my workplace.
Sounds like a perfect time to engage in some political advocacy. Get other employees to sign a petition to put in a charging station. If your company doesn't own the location, petition your company and others to make a request demand for a charging station (or more, depending...). What's to lose by giving it a try?
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Old 10th February 2021, 08:47 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Quick plug for plug-in hybrids as a transitional step to all-electric.
Uh, Eddie, I think the frau drove away from the charging station to quickly.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:05 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*********. Right now outside of Tesla and the Chevy Bolt fully electric cars have a range of less than 200 miles.
The electric cars with the best real-world range
Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles
Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles
Kia e-Niro, 253 miles
Tesla Model 3, 239 miles
Nissan Leaf e+, 217 miles
Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles

You might need to drive 150 miles, so a currently available fully electric car might not be for you. But have you considered a hybrid? Many manufacturers are releasing new models in both plug-in hybrid and fully electric versions.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:06 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Adapt.

The car was not invented because someone had a vision of the suburbs. The suburbs are an evolution based around the benefits and limitations of a technology.

And you will adapt to the benefits and limitations of a new technology. Things will look different.
You forgot to say "Amen" at the end of your homily.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:32 PM   #130
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This is partly a generational thing, but one of the things that keeps me from getting more serious about electric cars is the complex and inaccessible technology.

Tesla, for example, controls access to supercharging, apparently remotely. So if you don't have the right credit card up to date, they can just switch it off. It's unavailable at any price for salvaged vehicles. Though they sold used vehicles with "free unlimited supercharging" they retroactively made it non-transferable if you then sell the car.

I imagine such things will be ironed out in the marketplace eventually, but there's a little bit too much of the "black box" in some of these things right now for my liking.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:38 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'd be a little bit worried about battery replacement, Nissan charges more for a new battery than you paid for your car.
Dozens Of Shops Are Now Replacing Nissan LEAF Batteries
Quote:
A growing number of shops and suppliers are getting into the business, with used but good first-generation LEAF batteries now available for as little as $1000. People with an older LEAF can even get newer 62 kWh packs to get over 200 miles of range in the oldest LEAFs
Battery Swap Gives Nissan LEAF New Lease On Life
Quote:
in his latest video, [Daniel Öster] demonstrates that you can replace the battery in a modern electric vehicle without breaking the bank. While it’s not exactly an easy job, he manages to swap the pack in his 2012 Nissan LEAF from the comfort of his own garage using common tools and with the vehicle up on jack stands. The old battery wasn’t completely shot, so he was even able to recoup some of his costs by selling it; bringing the total price of the operation to approximately €2,122 ($2,500 USD).
One good thing about the Leaf is how well it protects the battery from crashes. Why is this relevant? Because when a Leaf is 'totaled' the battery usually survives unharmed. If I ever need a 'new' battery, it will probably come from a wrecked Leaf.

My battery is well past it's 'use by' date so I don't know how long it will continue to do the job for me. But I am only 3 years way from retirement, and then I will be driving mostly shorter distances so I am hoping it will be sufficient for many years. I am also biking and walking more now for my health, so the car may get even less use.
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Old 10th February 2021, 09:41 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.
I always use a rental for trips over ~300 miles. If nothing else, it gives me a chance to experience new features to see which are really important and which are just fun. My day-to-day car is a 2001 Honda which is very reliable and still low upkeep. I'm pretty sure it will last longer than I will.
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Old 10th February 2021, 10:14 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I imagine such things will be ironed out in the marketplace eventually, but there's a little bit too much of the "black box" in some of these things right now for my liking.
Yep, new technology can take a while to get used to.

I have been working with electronics since the 1970's, and building and flying electric powered model aircraft and drones since 2000, but I still find new technology a bit intimidating. The Leaf was a bit nerve-wracking until I got used to the different way it worked (having never driven an automatic car before didn't help either) and I still don't understand it completely. So much unfamiliar stuff! But that would probably be the same for me with any good new car.

Today I bought a new cellphone (my current one is 10 years old, can't be updated, and the battery is down to 50%). Amazing technology but... no manual! How am I supposed to figure this thing out? And I realize I'm not as tech-savvy as I should be.
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Old 11th February 2021, 02:18 AM   #134
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I realise much of the talk here is about cars, but for a different perspective, the bus depot I'm attached to has just recieved the last of 55 new electric busses from Yutong. On paper their range is 320 km / 200 miles, though my understanding is that their routes will be arranged in order to ensure the length is considerably less than that, in order to account for driving style and to ensure enough range remains to reach the depot in case of emergencies.

(photo spoilered due to size)

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Old 11th February 2021, 04:45 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.
Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station. On a longer trip stops would have to be planned ahead.

Again. I am not using this as a way to criticize EV's. The infrastructure will continue to improve, battery range will continue to improve, and the price of electric cars will hopefully continue to drop to a range where they are affordable for many more people. If I were younger and wealthier I would definitely see an EV in my future. As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:05 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station. On a longer trip stops would have to be planned ahead.
An EV with a real-world range approaching 300 miles would mean that on a long drive you'd have to stop to charge every three hours or so (assuming travel at 70mph or thereabouts). That's not a bad idea in any case.

I'm happy to drive for 6, 7, 8 or more hours straight, but that isn't necessarily that good an idea or even that safe.

People I know with EVs have managed to adapt their behaviour to accommodate these regular stops but as early adopters, maybe their willingness to change their behaviour is somewhat atypical.

15 years ago I used to cover 50,000 miles a year to and from client sites. I lived in an apartment and so even if I could have recharged on site, I wouldn't have been easily able to charge at home and an EB wouldn't be suitable for that kind of usage.

For the last 10 years or so I've been mostly working from home. Until recently I still did frequent 300 mile journeys and a longer range EV would have been borderline suitable.

Now an EV would be fine for pretty much all of my regular usage and for the once every couple of years I needed to travel further, I could change my behaviour or rent an alternative vehicle.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Again. I am not using this as a way to criticize EV's. The infrastructure will continue to improve, battery range will continue to improve, and the price of electric cars will hopefully continue to drop to a range where they are affordable for many more people. If I were younger and wealthier I would definitely see an EV in my future. As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.
This assumes that the price of fuel remains stable. If it were to be 10 times higher (or even 3-4 times higher as it is in parts of Europe) then the economic argument changes somewhat.

It's almost certain that our next purchase will be an EV. When that will be depends on how long Mrs Don's 12 year old Skoda keeps on going. If past experience is anything to go by, it could be a considerable time.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:11 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station.


[...]


As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.

In your case, an EV probably doesn't make sense. But, in my case, for example, I was spending over $100 a month driving back and forth to work and stopping on the way home to fill up with gas every week or two. After buying my EV, I was spending less than $30 a month on electricity and never having to stop specifically to charge it or to fill it with gas.


Another benefit I have seen is not having to get an oil change every few months. I do, however, have to have the brake fluid replaced once a year, ironically because the car seldom uses the brakes and water can build up in the system.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Sounds like a perfect time to engage in some political advocacy. Get other employees to sign a petition to put in a charging station. If your company doesn't own the location, petition your company and others to make a request demand for a charging station (or more, depending...). What's to lose by giving it a try?
The landlord that owns the worksite building can't even be bothered to fill potholes that look more like mortar strikes.

I very much doubt that encouraging installation of charging stations is going to work. Hell, climate change is a pressing issue. Mandate them. Even better, just have the city/state/nation install and operate them themselves.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:18 AM   #139
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How realistic is swappable batteries?

Especially for fleet vehicles like buses or taxis, seems like having a depot with charged batteries ready to swap in seems like a good solution.

Hell, seems like a good solution for personal vehicles too. I may not have power at my parking spot, but every residence has power inside. I could see having a spare battery charging under a desk as a good solution for those that can't charge in place wherever the car is parked.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:26 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How realistic is swappable batteries?

Especially for fleet vehicles like buses or taxis, seems like having a depot with charged batteries ready to swap in seems like a good solution.

Hell, seems like a good solution for personal vehicles too. I may not have power at my parking spot, but every residence has power inside. I could see having a spare battery charging under a desk as a good solution for those that can't charge in place wherever the car is parked.
It's been mentioned upthread and I think the consensus was that it's a non-starter.

A battery small enough to carry to and from a vehicle and into a residence is unlikely to have enough capacity to make a significant difference.

The likely solution would be to have charging points everywhere, where you work, where you shop, where you eat, in the streets and possibly even allowing people to use domestic chargers. If I'm not using my charger outside my house, then why not allow someone to pay to use it to charge their car ?

Countries like Norway will act as a laboratory for the feasibility for this kind of thing. Norway is pretty good too because it has some urban centres but also a very sparsely populated hinterland.

I don't know how feasible the following is:

Quote:
Charging equipment built into lamp posts is a new way of charging that utilises the existing highway infrastructure, helping to reduce overall installation costs. The first service to emerge in the UK was Ubitricity, whose customers purchase a smart cable from them to use their charging posts on lamp posts around London.
https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/ho...-electric-cars

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Old 11th February 2021, 05:29 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's been mentioned upthread and I think the consensus was that it's a non-starter.

A battery small enough to carry to and from a vehicle and into a residence is unlikely to have enough capacity to make a significant difference.

The likely solution would be to have charging points everywhere, where you work, where you shop, where you eat, in the streets and possibly even allowing people to use domestic chargers. If I'm not using my charger outside my house, then why not allow someone to pay to use it to charge their car ?

Countries like Norway will act as a laboratory for the feasibility for this kind of thing. Norway is pretty good too because it has some urban centres but also a very sparsely populated hinterland.
I wonder if swappable batteries would work for fleet vehicles. Most of these bus and taxi services already have depots with decent mechanic services and gas stations. Electrifying these vehicles is tough because they are in continuous use, so there's never a good time to take them out of service to charge for hours.

Even if the battery were several hundred pounds, a bus depot should have no problem swapping them out quickly with the proper tools.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:41 AM   #142
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Some electric trucks (and cars) have small generators on board so that they can be recharged using gas while driving. This differs from hybrids where a gas engine can directly power the wheels. I read about delivery trucks using this technology in England so that they can drive to London using the generator to extend the electric range then go fully electric when in the city.

There are roads with induction chargers built in so that vehicles can be charged while they are driving. That would seem to make sense for buses. You can buy a charger like that for your driveway, but they are expensive (at least for now).
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post

This assumes that the price of fuel remains stable. If it were to be 10 times higher (or even 3-4 times higher as it is in parts of Europe) then the economic argument changes somewhat.

It's almost certain that our next purchase will be an EV. When that will be depends on how long Mrs Don's 12 year old Skoda keeps on going. If past experience is anything to go by, it could be a considerable time.
For most people yes. For myself the only decision would be continue to drive or stop driving. I do not foresee ever having the cash to buy a car, and with my fixed income a loan would not be approved even if I could make the payments. As I say, it is my current car or no car.

The EV discussion is purely academic for me. But not for my daughter whose next vehicle purchase will undoubtedly be electric. When she becomes the main source of transportation for her decrepit parents we will travel by EV as our default.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:56 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder if swappable batteries would work for fleet vehicles. Most of these bus and taxi services already have depots with decent mechanic services and gas stations. Electrifying these vehicles is tough because they are in continuous use, so there's never a good time to take them out of service to charge for hours.

Even if the battery were several hundred pounds, a bus depot should have no problem swapping them out quickly with the proper tools.
It could certainly be designed to be pretty easy to swap, and for fleet vehicles it might make sense. Though how it compares to say fast charging while the driver has lunch I don't know.

It really only seems practical for a fleet of high mileage local vehicles. They need to put enough miles on them between breaks for the driver end of day usage to make putting a larger battery in them impractical but need to be able to stop by the swap station and not be 100 miles away from it.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:58 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Some electric trucks (and cars) have small generators on board so that they can be recharged using gas while driving. This differs from hybrids where a gas engine can directly power the wheels. I read about delivery trucks using this technology in England so that they can drive to London using the generator to extend the electric range then go fully electric when in the city.

There are roads with induction chargers built in so that vehicles can be charged while they are driving. That would seem to make sense for buses. You can buy a charger like that for your driveway, but they are expensive (at least for now).
That would be like a big, big improvement on overhead trolley wires that has the advantage of being used by all vehicles,
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Old 11th February 2021, 06:30 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Some electric trucks (and cars) have small generators on board so that they can be recharged using gas while driving. This differs from hybrids where a gas engine can directly power the wheels.
As an aside, in our Clarity even with the battery depleted, most driving is done with the electric motor powering the front wheels while the 1.5 liter gas engine provides the electricity to do so. One thing you have to get used to is the engine speed is largely divorced from road speed, which seems odd at first - the engine speeding up while the car doesn’t feels a lot like a clutch slipping.

I said “most driving” because at speeds between 45 and 70 mph and under certain loads the engine can decide to drive the front wheels directly. It’s the “Engine Drive Mode” in the diagram below.



Honda apparently found a way to do so to increase efficiency at those speeds. The whole system is rather complex, but in actual use is pretty seamless.
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Old 11th February 2021, 07:08 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder if swappable batteries would work for fleet vehicles. Most of these bus and taxi services already have depots with decent mechanic services and gas stations. Electrifying these vehicles is tough because they are in continuous use, so there's never a good time to take them out of service to charge for hours.

Even if the battery were several hundred pounds, a bus depot should have no problem swapping them out quickly with the proper tools.
For city/transit busses, it might not even be necessary.

Looking at the future route network for our busses, the longest run will be something in the area of 25 km/16 miles, and going with the above mentioned "safe" range of around 200 km/125 miles (as opposed to the published range of 320 km/200 miles on a full charge) you should be able to get 8 roundtrips in before a recharge became necessary. That's at least 16 hours of running time, not including breaks at the terminus, a timeframe I don't think any of our current fleet is even approaching.
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Old 11th February 2021, 07:33 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How realistic is swappable batteries?
Not very. Outside of engineering and practical considerations a battery pack is is key, integral piece of an electric car. You don't want to risk getting a crappy/lemon battery everytime you "fill the tank" on your electric car.

The other big thing with electrical cars is that every viable business model for them on the table right now is yet another "service as product" where you will never truly fully your own your car.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:03 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Some electric trucks (and cars) have small generators on board so that they can be recharged using gas while driving. This differs from hybrids where a gas engine can directly power the wheels. I read about delivery trucks using this technology in England so that they can drive to London using the generator to extend the electric range then go fully electric when in the city.
The Chevy Volt operates this way. It's very interesting technology. It's an electric vehicle, but once the battery reaches a minimum charge threshold, the IC engine kicks-on and turns a generator to charge the battery.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:06 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station. On a longer trip stops would have to be planned ahead.

Again. I am not using this as a way to criticize EV's. The infrastructure will continue to improve, battery range will continue to improve, and the price of electric cars will hopefully continue to drop to a range where they are affordable for many more people. If I were younger and wealthier I would definitely see an EV in my future. As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.
Well, will not likely happen in the life-span on a car you already have, but at some point, gasoline prices will start to go up. At first, as demand is falling, they could actually fall, although I suspect producers may try to increase profits instead. But then production will start to become unprofitable (already happening for tar sand and shale), and the supply will go down.

There is also the probability that some governments will increase taxes on fossil fuels, to finance and drive the change to sustainable energy.

At that point old gas cars will become collectors objects and museum pieces.

Hans
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:06 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not very. Outside of engineering and practical considerations a battery pack is is key, integral piece of an electric car. You don't want to risk getting a crappy/lemon battery everytime you "fill the tank" on your electric car.
I wonder if such systems are used in mobile robots expected to have 24hr service. That is the kind of usage that would seem to make the most sense. For personal transport not so much.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:11 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
The Chevy Volt operates this way. It's very interesting technology. It's an electric vehicle, but once the battery reaches a minimum charge threshold, the IC engine kicks-on and turns a generator to charge the battery.
Just to keep the technology terminology clear.

In general.

- Electric Car. Is driven completely by an electric motor. Tesla's, the Chevy Bolt, etc, fall into this category.
- Hybrid. Has a gasoline engine same as a traditional car, but also has electric motors and batteries. When the car brakes the braking power is used to charge the batteries and that power is used to give the car extra power while driving, reducing the need for the combustion engine. The Prius and Insight fall into this category.
- Plug In Hybrid. Same as a hybrid, but you can also charge the batteries directly.
- Range Extended Car. Fully electric, but has a generator/engine that can charge the battery after it has depleted or power the vehicle directly.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:19 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder if swappable batteries would work for fleet vehicles. Most of these bus and taxi services already have depots with decent mechanic services and gas stations. Electrifying these vehicles is tough because they are in continuous use, so there's never a good time to take them out of service to charge for hours.

Even if the battery were several hundred pounds, a bus depot should have no problem swapping them out quickly with the proper tools.
Thing about public transport is that it tends to have very varied loads over a day. So there will be plenty of opportunity to charge vehicles during the low periods.

However, I think we are here having some tunnel-vision again, in reality some future scenario could be this:

There is already a move (at least in Europe) towards cars that are not owned. You rent them when you need them. There is also the quest for fully automatic cars. Let's assume those are combined (and assume various safety challenges are solved), then a car would be something you ordered on your smartphone (or whatever communication terminal we may have in a decade or two). You will tell the app where you want to go, and an automatic car will appear at the curb. You will get in, take a nap or read a book, and leave it at the destination. You will be billed online. If you order a longer ride than the range of the usual car, you will either get a long-range version, or you will be requested to change car during the trip. If you are a larger group, you order a larger car.

Mind you, this scenario needs not be applied universally. In some areas, it may never be feasible, in others it could be implemented tomorrow (well, within a few years ).

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Old 11th February 2021, 08:28 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I wonder if such systems are used in mobile robots expected to have 24hr service. That is the kind of usage that would seem to make the most sense. For personal transport not so much.
Well, according to figures given in this thread, it seems the current EVs have about 5:1 operation to charge ratio, perhaps even better in an optimized set-up. So instead of battery swapping, which in an automated setting would require it's own class of robotics, you could simply have 20% extra robots. They could then just seek the charging station when needed. Commercial robots like vacuum cleaners and lawn movers already do this.

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Old 11th February 2021, 08:29 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How realistic is swappable batteries?

Especially for fleet vehicles like buses or taxis, seems like having a depot with charged batteries ready to swap in seems like a good solution.

Hell, seems like a good solution for personal vehicles too. I may not have power at my parking spot, but every residence has power inside. I could see having a spare battery charging under a desk as a good solution for those that can't charge in place wherever the car is parked.
It's not, the manufacturers are not going to allow that many people to touch the vehicles and swap the battery. To comply with safety and crash requirements, the secure would be important along with the reattaching the cables correctly. Manufacturers would not want to take on that potential liability.

I have a bit of a different perspective, I work in the plant that builds the Chevy Bolt.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:05 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, will not likely happen in the life-span on a car you already have, but at some point, gasoline prices will start to go up. At first, as demand is falling, they could actually fall, although I suspect producers may try to increase profits instead. But then production will start to become unprofitable (already happening for tar sand and shale), and the supply will go down.

There is also the probability that some governments will increase taxes on fossil fuels, to finance and drive the change to sustainable energy.

At that point old gas cars will become collectors objects and museum pieces.

Hans
I agree on all points.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:12 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
The Chevy Volt operates this way. It's very interesting technology. It's an electric vehicle, but once the battery reaches a minimum charge threshold, the IC engine kicks-on and turns a generator to charge the battery.
It sounds a bit like an in parvo diesel electric locomotive, except with an intermediate battery pack.

It seems like a pretty good idea, since a fairly small IC motor can achieve more efficiency if it's run at a constant speed, and it provide that little bit of safety net for people worried about the more drastic effects of short range. And whenever the range is not exceeded, the motor just sits there harmlessly.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:36 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
It's not, the manufacturers are not going to allow that many people to touch the vehicles and swap the battery. To comply with safety and crash requirements, the secure would be important along with the reattaching the cables correctly. Manufacturers would not want to take on that potential liability.
I envision battery modules that simply slide or drop in, not requiring cabling. Something like the rechargeable batteries on power tools. “Swap Stations” would probably need to verify the serviceability of batteries that are swapped.

Quote:
I have a bit of a different perspective, I work in the plant that builds the Chevy Bolt.
Cool!
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:39 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I envision battery modules that simply slide or drop in, not requiring cabling. Something like the rechargeable batteries on power tools. “Swap Stations” would probably need to verify the serviceability of batteries that are swapped.
But who owns them? Who buys them and pays for their replacement when they lose capacity?

With how battery tech has progressed it really looks like these are more quaint old fashioned ideas for how cars are actually used.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:47 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But who owns them? Who buys them and pays for their replacement when they lose capacity?
The devil, as always, is in the details.

Still, none of that seems insurmountable. It seems roughly analogous to what happens when you exchange an empty propane tank for a full one. In that case you “own” the one given to you for the time you have it, and the dealer verifies your exchange tank is still legally in limits.

It’s also been pointed out that even after a car’s battery pack drops below a certain arbitrary threshold, it could still have value as part of a “PowerWall” or other backup usage. I have no doubt a successful business model could be dreamed up once the demand is there.
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