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Old 17th February 2021, 11:09 PM   #201
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A factor I'm reminded of by this video, but which the video doesn't mention...

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I AGREE


It's about the main challenge facing electric vehicles being not the vehicle prices or the weight & range of the batteries, but the placement of charging stations. But that's all about places you stop at while traveling, which is the context in which a half-hour wait is said to make sense because you'd want to take about that much of a break anyway.

But, for daily life between local commutes, the idea is to charge it at your own home; nobody wants to stop & wait for a half-hour on the way home from work, now matter how many days of commuting you can go between episodes of needing to do that. But that not only means a lot more charging stations would need to be built & distributed than gas pumps, but also introduces a couple more complications about precisely where to place them: renting versus owning a home, and precisely where around your home you park.

So far, charging at home really only works if you own your home and you have a parking spot that other people won't park in: either your own driveway or your own garage. Neither of those applies to me.

I live in a big house that's been divided into four apartments for rent, with a driveway and 3-car garage that take up most of the back yard and the land on one side of the house. One of the four of us parks outside next to the garage and the other three have one garage spot apiece. If we were to start charging electric vehicles, we'd need at least four charging stations at a place we don't own. And the garage doesn't even have electricity. Even if somebody else were to take up the entire cost of the upgrade, they'd still need the owner's permission, or a law compelling it. And four wouldn't necessarily be enough. All four of us are single, but one or two couples could just as easily move in next after one or two of us move out, and any of us could sometimes have visitors who don't live with us. There's enough space for up to six vehicles in the back yard & garage, so either six chargers would be needed to make sure there's one for each spot even though we currently only use four, or the option would need to be left open to add more sometime after the original upgrade if needed.

And that's without bringing street parking into consideration. Even some people who own a house still park on the street in front of it, not in a garage. I park in my garage during winter but on the street in front of the house in summer. Sometimes, in summer, I come back home and find some other vehicle in my usual spot on the street, so I either use another spot nearby or pull up into our driveway. At my last apartment, street parking was all there was, and we were all constantly shuffling around based on which ones were open when we arrived (and whether one side of that street was closed at the time for street-cleaning). Even if you got everybody to agree to lining the streets with chargers, you'd need some way to keep track of which vehicles are on which ones in order to know who's supposed to pay for the electricity that each one uses, unless electricity becomes communalized. Or, if you assigned each spot to a specific person, you'd have no way to prevent somebody from taking a spot that isn't his/hers, especially when a bunch of guests arrive to be in one place. And at the apartment I had before that, the pavement in front of the buildings had six parking spots assigned to the six apartments in each building, but there was also unmarked paved space between the groups of marked & assigned spots, where guests or cohabitants could park. I imagine the six marked spots per building would have chargers, but that leaves no way for whoever sometimes parks in the unmarked gaps to charge, and putting chargers in all those other spaces would mean acquiring almost twice as many chargers just for most of them to go unused most of the time...
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Old 18th February 2021, 12:15 AM   #202
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This should be banned.






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Old 18th February 2021, 01:13 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Even if you got everybody to agree to lining the streets with chargers, you'd need some way to keep track of which vehicles are on which ones in order to know who's supposed to pay for the electricity that each one uses, unless electricity becomes communalized.
This bit at least is comparatively easy. In order to use a charger you need to activate it in some way. In the UK this is usually by using a phone app and/or having an account with the charger provider.

As the proportion of electric cars in Norway rises, it'll be interesting to see how they respond to the challenges posed by people not having dedicated street parking or a garage. It may be that a proportion of on-street parking is reserved for electric vehicles and that it's just considered impolite to park in a charging space when you have no need to charge.

Then again, for many people (myself and Mrs Don included) the weekly trip to the supermarket would provide plenty of time to charge for a full week's typical driving and even though we could easily charge at home, we wouldn't need to. Perhaps that same will be true for a significant proportion of Norwegians.

There will always be people whose mileage is such that they have to charge daily, or near daily, are unable to charge at home or work and cannot find the 30-45 minutes to charge during the day then a fully electric vehicle is probably not for them. It's possible that as the charging infrastructure improves then these people are increasingly edge cases.
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Old 18th February 2021, 01:59 AM   #204
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I can foresee a future in which those who have a house and space to charge offroad can own electric cars, and those who don't have that luxury either use public transport, walk, or use electic cycles that have removable rechargeable batteries.

Oh, I forgot the self driving taxis, but then, I don't expect them to ever be viable.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:43 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
I can foresee a future in which those who have a house and space to charge offroad can own electric cars, and those who don't have that luxury either use public transport, walk, or use electic cycles that have removable rechargeable batteries.

Oh, I forgot the self driving taxis, but then, I don't expect them to ever be viable.
IMO there's plenty of scope for people to charge at places other than their home so access to offroad personal charging shouldn't be a barrier.

As the number of electric cars increases then IMO solutions will be found for on-street charging (dedicated facilities or from streetlights), charging in public spaces and "Supercharging" stations which could provide entertainment while people charge their vehicles.

If you drive 300 miles a day then charging is a major challenge - but not too many people do 60-100,000 miles a year. Most people would only need to charge once or twice a week to allow them to travel the typical 10-20,000 miles a year.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:53 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again, if the installation costs them nothing and they stand to make some money, maybe the employer (or perhaps more accurately, the owner of the building) would agree to a third party installing charging points.
It's possible but it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem; until there's a number of electric cars parking there, there's no incentive for any enterprising business to invest in supplying charging points, and vice versa the only employees who will adopt electric cars before there are charging points are those who can charge at home and they won't pay a premium to use someone else's electricity at work.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:08 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's possible but it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem; until there's a number of electric cars parking there, there's no incentive for any enterprising business to invest in supplying charging points, and vice versa the only employees who will adopt electric cars before there are charging points are those who can charge at home and they won't pay a premium to use someone else's electricity at work.
It'll be interesting to see how things work out in Norway.

If there's a political will then government locally or nationally can take a lead by providing incentives for companies to set up charging stations.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:15 AM   #208
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I work in the Australian apprenticeship system and have recently been involved with Tesla on training apprentices to maintain electric vehicles.

It comes as no surprise that many skills of motor mechanics are redundant when working on Teslas. But what I’m surprised and delighted to see that Australia’s training system has been quick to develop apprenticeships just for electric cars. It’s going to be exciting (well for me anyway) to see young people develop new skills. I’m inducting Tesla’s first Australian apprentice next week.
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Old 18th February 2021, 05:29 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...and putting chargers in all those other spaces would mean acquiring almost twice as many chargers just for most of them to go unused most of the time...
This is, and has always been, a major, yet generally unrecognized, problem with privately owned cars: Most go unused most of the time.

EVs offer ways to move away from that and increase the average utility of individual cars:
I think of groups of people (companies, neighborhoods, entire towns) using fleets of cars. Employing cars that are hooked to the grid much of their time as buffers and temporary sources of electricity; cars smartly using those times of the day that there is a surplus of electrical energy to charge (at nights, if nuclear power dominates; mid-day, if solar dominates; whenever the wind is blowing nice and steady). Why, the owners of the EV may even get payed for letting grid operators use their batteries.

So EVs become parts of a public utility to best employ resources - electricity as supply comes, the grid, and the vehicles themselves.

Isn't it a huge waste to drive around a battery pack that has 400 miles in it if all you ever do all week is go 20 miles per ride?
The smart plan has you take the small-battery car when you commute, and the big-battery car when you need to travel further. The two-seater when you commute, the 4- or 6-seater when you take your family along.

And for you to personally own none of those.

Yes, of course there is the problem that everyone commutes on weekday rush hours, and everyone travels with family on weekends, so future solutions for this are sought - more flexible work and school times. Perhaps we learn from the current pandemic and stay-at-home regime and give each of us an additional day or two when we don't have to commute (home office, distance learning)? Let some families take their weekend Monday-Wednesday.

Yes, of course there is also the problem that people treat things like **** that they haven't bought with their own money to own long-term. And yet, flats and houses for rent are a thing, as are hotel rooms, so it's possible, isn't it? Just add regular car service to the charge, and charge extra for damage attributable to you.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 10:41 AM   #210
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Not... personally... owning... your automobile?

Why do you hate America?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 10:44 AM   #211
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We don't. We just pity you.

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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:56 AM   #212
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I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:04 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.
I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.

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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:25 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.

Hans
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:37 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?
Would it need to be regulated? I mean high powered sports cars are a thing that most people don't daily drive, but there is no regulation that says you can't daily drive a Viper. Garage queens aren't generally low mileage vehicles due to regulation, are they?

Someone at my office drives three wheeled open roof sports car (like a campagna T-rex) most days. I admire that, but I bet most owners of such cars use them mainly for ice cream runs on the weekend.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:38 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?
Sorry, what do you mean? I expect it will be a business. You rent it. You pay a market price for it..


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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:36 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Sorry, what do you mean? I expect it will be a business. You rent it. You pay a market price for it..


Hans
What's the problem in understanding? You state that you can own a car you like but only use it for.....etc.

Who says what car I like, and who says what I can use it for? What if I don't like the business model? I don't rent my house either. I like station wagons, and it would not be convenient, out here in the country, to have to file a flight plan to insure that I won't be punished for unapproved uses.

I'm not against regulations as such, but it seems like a very difficult thing to do well.

I'm not saying the model would not work well for many, and would not make sense, especially in heavily settled areas, but it sounds a little cumbersome.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:39 PM   #218
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It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."
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Old 23rd February 2021, 03:10 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."
Right, like buses. We all think farmers and ranchers should ride buses to town, and frankly can't understand why they don't.

You seem to want to show that city folks don't understand rural issues, but instead you just seem entirely ignorant of city folks. You know, a lot of us have lived in the country at times and may do so again one day. We understand rural life, too.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:23 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.
Why would somebody who owns a vehicle want to use somebody else's?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:09 PM   #221
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I suppose it depends on what cars one can buy but I doubt the economics of renting a car when you own one already. It would seem to make more sense to own a car that can do more, or, as many do, to own more than one. The ecological issue remains unresolved, depending on how often you would need the larger or less economical vehicle, and how much you use the one you own.

I can certainly see the benefit for many of owning a little electric runabout for local use and renting a truck or taking public transport when it's needed, but the way the issue was presented sounds a little bit compulsory, and there are other ways of doing this too, I think.

I live in the country, where rental and borrowing and the like are impractical, and besides that, although the mileage is short, I often need the capacity of a truck. I can afford to own what I please. My solution to this is to have a cheap little economical runabout which I use most of the time, and a pickup truck which is only driven a handful of miles a year. I doubt I put more than a thousand miles a year on it, but when it's what I need, it's what I really need. That's a better and more convenient deal for me than spot rental from some unspecified agency which may or may not have what I need, and to which I would need transportation. Besides, the truck has four wheel drive, which is occasionally really needed in blizzards.

If an electric runabout becomes reliably useful around here, I might well replace the little econobox with one, and still keep something like a truck or an SUV with a trailer hitch as a backup and work vehicle.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:08 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I suppose it depends on what cars one can buy but I doubt the economics of renting a car when you own one already. It would seem to make more sense to own a car that can do more, or, as many do, to own more than one. The ecological issue remains unresolved, depending on how often you would need the larger or less economical vehicle, and how much you use the one you own.

I can certainly see the benefit for many of owning a little electric runabout for local use and renting a truck or taking public transport when it's needed, but the way the issue was presented sounds a little bit compulsory, and there are other ways of doing this too, I think.

I live in the country, where rental and borrowing and the like are impractical, and besides that, although the mileage is short, I often need the capacity of a truck. I can afford to own what I please. My solution to this is to have a cheap little economical runabout which I use most of the time, and a pickup truck which is only driven a handful of miles a year. I doubt I put more than a thousand miles a year on it, but when it's what I need, it's what I really need. That's a better and more convenient deal for me than spot rental from some unspecified agency which may or may not have what I need, and to which I would need transportation. Besides, the truck has four wheel drive, which is occasionally really needed in blizzards.

If an electric runabout becomes reliably useful around here, I might well replace the little econobox with one, and still keep something like a truck or an SUV with a trailer hitch as a backup and work vehicle.
I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:42 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What's the problem in understanding? You state that you can own a car you like but only use it for.....etc.

Who says what car I like, and who says what I can use it for? What if I don't like the business model? I don't rent my house either. I like station wagons, and it would not be convenient, out here in the country, to have to file a flight plan to insure that I won't be punished for unapproved uses.

I'm not against regulations as such, but it seems like a very difficult thing to do well.

I'm not saying the model would not work well for many, and would not make sense, especially in heavily settled areas, but it sounds a little cumbersome.
I really don't imagine a high level of regulation. More like a market thing. Those who insist on owning their own car can do so, but there may in the long run be restrictions, like not being allowed in city centers.

Also as fuel cars become in minority, fuel may get expensive and harder to get.

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Old 24th February 2021, 01:45 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Why would somebody who owns a vehicle want to use somebody else's?
Because, ultimately it will be cheaper.

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Old 24th February 2021, 07:07 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.
true enough, eventually. As you say, the high load capacity of a truck is ideal for batteries. The relatively short mileages I use mine for would work. But that's speculative at this point.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I really don't imagine a high level of regulation. More like a market thing. Those who insist on owning their own car can do so, but there may in the long run be restrictions, like not being allowed in city centers.

Also as fuel cars become in minority, fuel may get expensive and harder to get.

Hans
That's also true, at least for urban dwellers.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Because, ultimately it will be cheaper.

Hans
That remains in the distant future, and depends in some degree on what happens with the used market. At this point the issue for some is not whether it is cheaper, but whether it is practicable.

At some time in the future, when there is no such thing as a cheap old pickup truck, it will become more economical to rent a horribly expensive, exotic electric one instead of owning it. And that will probably be an overall good thing for the world. But it's a long way off.
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Old 24th February 2021, 08:38 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.
Agreed, but there are issues.

One issue is that loading a truck with batteries then decreases the useful payload that it can carry. You get into a situation where the truck has to be very stout to carry the batteries necessary to move the very stout truck and the expected payload over useful range. Not impossible, just an issue.

As to towing, the main issue there is reduced range due to aero loads. Even a well designed trailer will reduce range significantly. I imagine we will be seeing upscale trailers that have extra capacity built in, possibly even regenerative braking instead of friction braking. I don't think adding a motor at the trailer axle is necessary or would add to stability, even though it becomes simple once regen braking is designed in.

This all will be easier in the US since we have much heavier trailers for personal use than are allowed in the EU, so far as I am aware.

Nonetheless, I first saw a Tesla towing an Airstream years ago. Enthusiasts will find a way.

Personally, I look at the new F150 as a pretty good stepping stone to what will be far more efficient personal trucks. It has a hybrid system that provides short distance electric operation as well as useful electric service for a work site. Would be nice if camping out and you needed a bit of juice, even if it is far more expensive than a generator.
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Old 24th February 2021, 08:47 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That remains in the distant future, and depends in some degree on what happens with the used market. At this point the issue for some is not whether it is cheaper, but whether it is practicable.
No reason the think it's that distant. EVs are quickly becoming main-stream technology and as such, they are simpler then a fuel car and have potential to be come cheaper. Look what happened to power tools.

Quote:
At some time in the future, when there is no such thing as a cheap old pickup truck, it will become more economical to rent a horribly expensive, exotic electric one instead of owning it. And that will probably be an overall good thing for the world. But it's a long way off.
At that time, the electric one will neither be horribly expensive nor exotic, whether you decide to own it or rent it. Actually, at that time, your cheap old pickup truck will probably be electric.

Give it twenty years ...

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Old 24th February 2021, 09:53 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No reason the think it's that distant. EVs are quickly becoming main-stream technology and as such, they are simpler then a fuel car and have potential to be come cheaper. Look what happened to power tools.



At that time, the electric one will neither be horribly expensive nor exotic, whether you decide to own it or rent it. Actually, at that time, your cheap old pickup truck will probably be electric.

Give it twenty years ...

Hans
Perhaps. Remember, though, that in the case of power tools, for example, a new battery for my cordless drill costs several times what a corded tool costs even now, and while buying a used cordless tool is likely a poor bet, I can pick up an old corded tool from anywhere (I've gotten a few from free piles), and it will work. The tools are much more affordable, and worth having now, but the skewed cost of maintenance versus replacement is also part of a throw-away culture that is bad enough for tools but could be a worse problem with something as big as cars.

This is not to say that it's impossible to set up an infrastructure in which these things will work, and work well for most people, but it's not been done yet. It's one of the reasons you can find a spiffy Prius a few years old for little more than scrap price.

So it's likely true that in a fairly near future, that cheap old pickup will be electric, but it remains to see if it will be cheap to own. Among other things, a battery will discharge and age with time alone, while a gas vehicle (rust aside) will age mostly from use.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:53 AM   #229
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I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.
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Old 24th February 2021, 12:07 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."
Well, we already have taxis so the problem is already solved, right?

Let them eat cake in the back of an Uber, or something.
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Old 24th February 2021, 12:59 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.
I think that once these things go mainstream, it will be like every other thing: Standard components. Some manufacturers will make motors, some will make controllers, some will make batteries, etc. Of course, all the brands will pretend they make their own products, but, like present cars, washing machines, etc., we all know that up to four "different" brands are really the same product dressed in slightly different outer body parts, and slightly different feature packages.

Hans
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:14 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think that once these things go mainstream, it will be like every other thing: Standard components. Some manufacturers will make motors, some will make controllers, some will make batteries, etc. Of course, all the brands will pretend they make their own products, but, like present cars, washing machines, etc., we all know that up to four "different" brands are really the same product dressed in slightly different outer body parts, and slightly different feature packages.

Hans
Even better, we may be entering the second great era of coach building, with brands like Zagato, Pininfarina, Ghia, and Vanden Plas all set to make you a bespoke body for a skateboard made by one of the big 4 or 5 manufacturers. That could see the advent of choices that haven't been available for decades.

The regulatory hurdles would be huge, but there was recent change for kits that could be broadened to include this sort industry.

Even better, you could hire a personal designer and have the body manufactured for you, like a bespoke suit.

People afraid that everyone will have the same thing are only scared because they keep buying the same camry and can't imagine why anyone would buy an accord.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:16 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.
This is a trend being embraced by all manufacturing that needs to be better regulated. Right to repair is a huge issue from John Deere to Apple, not just Tesla.

ETA: I always think of the 911 as the best example of triumph of development over design. You build the same car for long enough and you can't help but make it better.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 24th February 2021 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:28 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Even better, we may be entering the second great era of coach building, with brands like Zagato, Pininfarina, Ghia, and Vanden Plas all set to make you a bespoke body for a skateboard made by one of the big 4 or 5 manufacturers. That could see the advent of choices that haven't been available for decades.

The regulatory hurdles would be huge, but there was recent change for kits that could be broadened to include this sort industry.

Even better, you could hire a personal designer and have the body manufactured for you, like a bespoke suit.

People afraid that everyone will have the same thing are only scared because they keep buying the same camry and can't imagine why anyone would buy an accord.
Yes, I have been thinking along those lines as well. What could support that is that the mechanical parts of an EV would have a very long life-time. And once recycling of batteries gets well organized, battery prices should come down.

Hans
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:42 PM   #235
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I agree with most of that, but we need some strong regulation, I think, to overcome the "John Deere" effect, in which one has to "jailbreak" a tractor in order for it even to start if you've put in a used part, even if it's genuine.

My hope is that even without regulation some savvy manufacturers might realize that "you can repair it anywhere" is a sales feature, but these days people are pretty willing to accept the complication and privatization of everything.

Bespoke coachwork and the like is great, but it doesn't answer the problem if you can't get a replacement key or you find yourself stuck in East Jesus and your car won't start unless you tow it to the dealer in another state.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:52 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.
I doubt that is going to happen that quickly if at all. Still, I imagine a great many people not owning a vehicle and autonomous vehicles charging around the corner driving to and taking you to your destination and then going to another charging lot or space.
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Old 24th February 2021, 02:53 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I agree with most of that, but we need some strong regulation, I think, to overcome the "John Deere" effect, in which one has to "jailbreak" a tractor in order for it even to start if you've put in a used part, even if it's genuine.

My hope is that even without regulation some savvy manufacturers might realize that "you can repair it anywhere" is a sales feature, but these days people are pretty willing to accept the complication and privatization of everything.

Bespoke coachwork and the like is great, but it doesn't answer the problem if you can't get a replacement key or you find yourself stuck in East Jesus and your car won't start unless you tow it to the dealer in another state.
Agreed, but this isn't really an electric vehicle problem. It a market issue across all products. I remember hearing that BMW was going to move a feature from an option to a subscription and I thought: That's not helping!
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:06 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.
The software side of EV's is somewhat troublesome, but not unexpected. Pretty much any software you buy is merely licensed, and not purchased.

There have been reports of people selling their Teslas with the software add-ons like Full Self Drive, and Tesla removing the software from the care because the new owners didn't pay for it.

As well, Tesla also want full control over who does, and does not get to repair your vehicle. People who have bought Salvaged Teslas and fixed them themselves, or had others done the work have found that Tesla has removed them from the Supercharge network. Even in some cases where Tesla said the work was up to spec.

And yet, I still bought a Tesla. Best damn car I've ever owned.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:04 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
The software side of EV's is somewhat troublesome, but not unexpected. Pretty much any software you buy is merely licensed, and not purchased.

There have been reports of people selling their Teslas with the software add-ons like Full Self Drive, and Tesla removing the software from the care because the new owners didn't pay for it.

As well, Tesla also want full control over who does, and does not get to repair your vehicle. People who have bought Salvaged Teslas and fixed them themselves, or had others done the work have found that Tesla has removed them from the Supercharge network. Even in some cases where Tesla said the work was up to spec.

And yet, I still bought a Tesla. Best damn car I've ever owned.
FYI: Tesla has changed a few things. Tesla offered free supercharging to the original owner only. Every other feature is now transferable without charge. At least that is my understanding.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:30 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
FYI: Tesla has changed a few things. Tesla offered free supercharging to the original owner only. Every other feature is now transferable without charge. At least that is my understanding.
I would imagine some of this will straighten out as the market changes. AT this point Tesla has virtues that make people willing to buy it, and few real competitors. As more companies come in, if they decide to offer better service, Tesla will find it has to match. Also, if their policies diminish the trade-in value of their cars too much it will hurt their sales. But it all depends on whether other manufacturers decide to be really competitive or to feed at the same trough.
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