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Old 24th February 2021, 04:05 PM   #121
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
ONE hundred thousand would be 20% of the total deaths in the US. HUNDREDS of thousands implies 40% or more of the deaths in the US could have been avoided by silencing Fox News etc.

Normalized by population, the US is not materially worse than the UK or most of the EU in terms of Deaths.

Total Deaths normalized by Population

And yet plenty of countries ARE doing that much better. I donít think itís unreasonable to hope that we could have gotten out of the top 20% worst hit countries (per capita) and performed as well as say, Austria or Germany. With their rates yes, weíd have around two hundred thousand fewer dead.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:09 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
A wrong conclusion.
They both constitute pressure.

The difference was one was a "bully pulpit" type of pressure .Real- but different from pressure through official channels- as in the tone of the letter from the Congressmembers.
Take it up with EC.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:14 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well that's just patently false right there.

Yes, hundreds of thousands have died. But you are implying that all of those who died did so explicitly because these specific news companies caused their deaths directly. Which is just not even a little bit true. I know several people who have gotten covid, some of whom have died. They all got it while wearing a mask any way. Most of them are liberals who don't watch those news channels anyway.

It's flat out false and misleading to try to lay all of the deaths from covid at the feet of a few news outlets - especially when it's abundantly clear that your animosity toward those outlets has a hell of a lot more to do with their political slant than anything else.
tyr13 did no such thing!

You constantly claim that we are saying all the Covid deaths would have been avoided if Trump had shown shown some leadership, or if the media didn't spread lies about Covid.

LITERALLY NO-ONE HERE IS CLAIMING THIS!!!

As I said earlier, the US has 4% of the population and 20% of the deaths. ask yourself why that is, and while you are at it, ask yourself why the US has 68 times the death rate per population that New Zealand, and 40 times that of Australia.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:19 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
And yet plenty of countries ARE doing that much better. I donít think itís unreasonable to hope that we could have gotten out of the top 20% worst hit countries (per capita) and performed as well as say, Austria or Germany. With their rates yes, weíd have around two hundred thousand fewer dead.
Germany and Austria have something like only 60% of our obesity rate. Given the known connection between obesity and mortality due to COVID, that's a pretty damn big confounding variable. Unless you think you know how to rapidly drop our obesity rates (spoiler: you can't), then no, it's not realistic to think that we could have hit Austrian or Germany rates by doing anything even remotely similar.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:20 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
tyr13 did no such thing!

You constantly claim that we are saying all the Covid deaths would have been avoided is Trump had shown shown some leadership, or if the media didn't spread lies about Covid.

LITERALLY NO-ONE HERE IS CLAIMING THIS!!!

As I said earlier, the US has 4% of the population and 20% of the deaths. ask yourself why that is, and while you are at it, ask yourself why the US has 68 times the death rate per population that New Zealand, and 40 times that os Australia.
Or why Australia has a rate 80 times that of Vietnam.
Another good question.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:28 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Do you guys actually keep forgetting all the things Trump demanded to be cancelled or are you lying?

It really has to be one of the two.

When you say "Oh, I didn't like Trump saying fake news, but that's different than applying pressure..." You either were paying zero attention or you're lying now.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/polit...ngs/index.html

Both of these things can be true, and in all likelihood, are!
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:29 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well that's just patently false right there.

Yes, hundreds of thousands have died. But you are implying that all of those who died did so explicitly because these specific news companies caused their deaths directly. Which is just not even a little bit true. I know several people who have gotten covid, some of whom have died. They all got it while wearing a mask any way. Most of them are liberals who don't watch those news channels anyway.

It's flat out false and misleading to try to lay all of the deaths from covid at the feet of a few news outlets - especially when it's abundantly clear that your animosity toward those outlets has a hell of a lot more to do with their political slant than anything else.
You really can't math good, can you. Here in America, your country and mine, we've had over 500,000 Covid deaths. If not politicizing mask wearing and convincing the right that Covid was a hoax had prevented well under half of those deaths that still would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:33 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As I said earlier, the US has 4% of the population and 20% of the deaths. ask yourself why that is, and while you are at it, ask yourself why the US has 68 times the death rate per population that New Zealand, and 40 times that os Australia.
Part of that is because some countries just flat out aren't testing and recording everyone affected. In some cases, that's because there's a large rural and agrarian population that just isn't being addressed at all. In others it's because those "low caste" people just don't matter to the people in charge.

Part of it is also because China has pretty much just lied since last March.

There are a lot of things that contribute to viral spread. Urban density is a big one, with more developed nations that have larger more densely packed cities experiencing higher overall rates. Especially in areas where that density is paired with a high degree of individual mobility. Countries that don't share land borders with other countries did particularly well.

Yes, the anti-maskers helped make our rates higher, but what's the excuse for Belgium? Or for Italy or Portugal? Yes, several countries did better than we did, and several did worse. Either way, I think it's entirely implausible that we could have reduced our rates by more than 20% if we had just banned Trump and Fox News.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:35 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You really can't math good, can you.
I dunno. I mean, I do have a Masters in Applied Mathematics, and I've been a practicing Actuary for 20+ years, but sure, maybe I'm innumerate.


Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Here in America, your country and mine, we've had over 500,000 Covid deaths. If not politicizing mask wearing and convincing the right that Covid was a hoax had prevented well under half of those deaths that still would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
It's completely irrational to assume that we could have reduced our rate by half.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:39 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You really can't math good, can you. Here in America, your country and mine, we've had over 500,000 Covid deaths. If not politicizing mask wearing and convincing the right that Covid was a hoax had prevented well under half of those deaths that still would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
If.

But there's no actual evidence that this "if" is true, that a different approach could have made anywhere near that much of a difference.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:41 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
In one case, we;ve got the president spouting off and saying that somebody or other ought to be fired(which I disagree with, by the way), but never actually taking action as the president to follow through on that... .

In the other case, we've got members of congress acting in their capacity as congresspeople to put pressure on carriers to limit the content provided by news organizations on their platforms.

Yeah, those are totally the same thing.
We've asked what pressure, and so far the absolute best you can come up with is a hearing. Which is obviously far less pressure than threats to remove licenses and have people fired.

Then again, when one thinks the right to spread known falsehoods that cost lives is more important than the right to be alive, as many on the right do, I can see how a threat from the right to remove a news organization's ability to exist is far less than a threat to...uh...explain one's policy?
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:42 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There are a lot of things that contribute to viral spread. Urban density is a big one, with more developed nations that have larger more densely packed cities experiencing higher overall rates. Especially in areas where that density is paired with a high degree of individual mobility. Countries that don't share land borders with other countries did particularly well.
Don't forget other factors like obesity rates.

I had expected Africa to be ravaged by Convid because their medical infrastructure is a lot weaker than ours. But it hasn't been (though they have been hard hit by the economic fallout). One of the reasons is people spend a lot more time outdoors, and in the sun. Even indoor locations tend to be extremely well ventilated (since a lot of them don't have AC). These things make a big difference.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:43 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If.

But there's no actual evidence that this "if" is true, that a different approach could have made anywhere near that much of a difference.
Other than the evidence of every country that took that tactic and had that result?

Wait, have we dropped your concern that laws against lies in certain situations would somehow prevent the truth from being told in those situations yet?
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:46 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I dunno. I mean, I do have a Masters in Applied Mathematics, and I've been a practicing Actuary for 20+ years, but sure, maybe I'm innumerate.




It's completely irrational to assume that we could have reduced our rate by half.
Are you absolutely certain that you're going to brag about a Masters Degree in Applied Mathematics and make the basic mistake of not seeing the difference between "half" and "well under half" in the same post? Because I rag on Zig for his own goals, but that's a doozy.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You mean when we didn't have enough masks for doctors and nurses, and the "tribe" of medical experts was telling people not to panic buy them all like they did with toilet paper? Or did your narrative forget that?
Funny how the right wingers here forget that.
The American Right has declared war on science. End of story.
And the so called "respectable" conservatives refuse to call out,and even support the wackjobs.
That is why I have turned on Conservatism in America. It has totally gone over to the Dark Side.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:49 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Other than the evidence of every country that took that tactic and had that result?
Now you're making **** up.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:52 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Part of that is because some countries just flat out aren't testing and recording everyone affected. In some cases, that's because there's a large rural and agrarian population that just isn't being addressed at all. In others it's because those "low caste" people just don't matter to the people in charge.
Here in Georgia, USA they also flat out aren't testing and recording everyone affected. Florida has a situation where the governor fired a researcherand had police confiscate her personal computers because she criticized errors they were making with testing and reporting case numbers.

Quote:
Part of it is also because China has pretty much just lied since last March.
So have many places in the US. Georgia admits thousands more "probably" died from Covid than our official numbers report, for instance.

Quote:
There are a lot of things that contribute to viral spread. Urban density is a big one, with more developed nations that have larger more densely packed cities experiencing higher overall rates. Especially in areas where that density is paired with a high degree of individual mobility. Countries that don't share land borders with other countries did particularly well.

Yes, the anti-maskers helped make our rates higher, but what's the excuse for Belgium? Or for Italy or Portugal? Yes, several countries did better than we did, and several did worse. Either way, I think it's entirely implausible that we could have reduced our rates by more than 20% if we had just banned Trump and Fox News.
"Several"???? Are you....wait, how many countries do you think exist?
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:53 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Now you're making **** up.
Yeah, you go with claims that other countries don't exist. It's...smarter than your previous arguments anyway.
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:12 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
We've already seen congress putting pressure on social media platforms, resulting in companies like Facebook and Twitter intervening to curb speech that congress considered problematic. We've seen topics treated as "banned topics" for private individuals to discuss on those platforms (the Biden story in the NY Post that was forcible suppressed and removed from social media prior to the election).
Hogwash, Twitter chose not to link to a NY Post story, which the mainstream media also pretty much sat on because it reeked of BS. Innuendo couldn't keep that puppy alive; our current Congress didn't exist yet. Twitter drew its line at lies about election fraud and some platforms started removing Covid-19 misinformation. They didn't do so at the behest of "congress" (though perhaps you are only talking about the House of Representatives); they did it because they can't plausibly deny anymore that yes, they do have some responsibility for what gets amplified.

But Covid-19 and election fraud allegations that later sparked a mutiny and were found to be totally groundless? Those two both strike me as extreme outliers. I mean, fomenting revolution and spreading fake info in deadly pandemic ... perhaps those won't happen again in this administration (by a pure stroke of luck of course). Maybe 2020 was just a particularly bad year for some reason.

That's not on this Congress and it doesn't matter how scary a letter from the House of Representatives sounds if you get one in the mail.

Those earnest questions about responsibility ... government may play a role but I'd like to see the content producers and platforms evolve meaningful ways to moderate content to cut down on some misinformation, but they can't always stop it. Maybe a label is enough. The Economist said Twitter should not have banned Trump, but instead moderated individual messages; I can see why a straight ban is from Twitter's point of view. I'd love to see more organizations signing on to guidelines for truthiness. I don't think government's going to be a big driver of that though.
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:16 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't forget other factors like obesity rates.

I had expected Africa to be ravaged by Convid because their medical infrastructure is a lot weaker than ours. But it hasn't been (though they have been hard hit by the economic fallout). One of the reasons is people spend a lot more time outdoors, and in the sun. Even indoor locations tend to be extremely well ventilated (since a lot of them don't have AC). These things make a big difference.
Yes, all of that contributes as well.
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:18 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Hogwash, Twitter chose not to link to a NY Post story, which the mainstream media also pretty much sat on because it reeked of BS. Innuendo couldn't keep that puppy alive; our current Congress didn't exist yet. Twitter drew its line at lies about election fraud and some platforms started removing Covid-19 misinformation. They didn't do so at the behest of "congress" (though perhaps you are only talking about the House of Representatives); they did it because they can't plausibly deny anymore that yes, they do have some responsibility for what gets amplified.

But Covid-19 and election fraud allegations that later sparked a mutiny and were found to be totally groundless? Those two both strike me as extreme outliers. I mean, fomenting revolution and spreading fake info in deadly pandemic ... perhaps those won't happen again in this administration (by a pure stroke of luck of course). Maybe 2020 was just a particularly bad year for some reason.

That's not on this Congress and it doesn't matter how scary a letter from the House of Representatives sounds if you get one in the mail.

Those earnest questions about responsibility ... government may play a role but I'd like to see the content producers and platforms evolve meaningful ways to moderate content to cut down on some misinformation, but they can't always stop it. Maybe a label is enough. The Economist said Twitter should not have banned Trump, but instead moderated individual messages; I can see why a straight ban is from Twitter's point of view. I'd love to see more organizations signing on to guidelines for truthiness. I don't think government's going to be a big driver of that though.
Excellent post.

In theory social media companies are nothing but publishers on a wide scale. They have a responsibility to their readers to publish truthful, accurate and responsible content.
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:29 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Excellent post.

In theory social media companies are nothing but publishers on a wide scale. They have a responsibility to their readers to publish truthful, accurate and responsible content.
Be careful with that P word!
If they can be described as publishers then they're fully liable for everything that ever gets posted on their platforms
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:31 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Be careful with that P word!
If they can be described as publishers then they're fully liable for everything that ever gets posted on their platforms
No, not really. One of the more pervasive myths is that there are legal stakes in "publisher vs platform". Barring certain exceptions, and they are the same exceptions no matter the nature of their organization, they are simply not liable for what third parties post.
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:36 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
No, not really. One of the more pervasive myths is that there are legal stakes in "publisher vs platform". Barring certain exceptions, and they are the same exceptions no matter the nature of their organization, they are simply not liable for what third parties post.
One of the 3 right wingers arguing in this thread has claimed that the government can/should go after publishers. I think that was the point of Cavemonster's tongue in cheek post.

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Old 24th February 2021, 05:37 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
No, not really. One of the more pervasive myths is that there are legal stakes in "publisher vs platform". Barring certain exceptions, and they are the same exceptions no matter the nature of their organization, they are simply not liable for what third parties post.
No they're not liable. Maybe they should be. That would end social media as we know it.

But neither do they have a responsibility to publish your crap. The first Amendment doesn't require Facebook or Twitter to publish your shouts of fire in a crowded theater. Especially when the fire is a figment of your imagination.
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:20 PM   #146
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You got that right.
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:22 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
One of the 3 right wingers arguing in this thread has claimed that the government can/should go after publishers. I think that was the point of Cavemonster's tongue in cheek post.
I think I was an inadvertent Poe.
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:47 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm actually a bit frightened by the illiberal, repressive, and downright authoritarian views being expressed here.
Itís a free country.
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Old 24th February 2021, 09:44 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yeah, you go with claims that other countries don't exist. It's...smarter than your previous arguments anyway.
You seem to be claiming that we did worse than anyone else. But thatís not true. We did better than some, and worse than some. Given variations in circumstances and confounding factors, you need to do a lot to demonstrate that we actually underperformed by any significant margin. And you havenít. Youíve just made up a claim with no evidence.
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Old 24th February 2021, 10:26 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You seem to be claiming that we did worse than anyone else. But that’s not true. We did better than some, and worse than some. Given variations in circumstances and confounding factors, you need to do a lot to demonstrate that we actually underperformed by any significant margin. And you haven’t. You’ve just made up a claim with no evidence.
You're wrong by a mile. I've been reading your posts pushing this narrative. But it is NONSENSE. What I see is a perfect example of what my father use to say.

"Figures don't lie,
but liars figure."

A half a million Americans are dead today because of COVID. And multiples of that will face long term health issues. Trump not only failed to respond to the problem, he dismissed it, he downplayed it and people died and will continue to die because of him.

And the MAGA MORONS marched along with his lunacy. He treated the scientists as if he knew better than they did. But Trump is a liar and a lunatic. And so is anyone who suggests that Trump managed this well.
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Old 24th February 2021, 10:51 PM   #151
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Americans have a lot of confounding factors that make COVID deadly and we did a ****** job tackling the pandemic
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:04 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post

It's completely irrational to assume that we could have reduced our rate by half.
okay, what % would you attribute to Trump's handling and lack thereof?
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:08 PM   #153
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If I could conceivably pull this back to the thread topic, there is obviously a lot of dispute about a lot of things said in the media about Covid. Do we want to have the government step in and force media outlets to say only one thing? If legislation were passed making that possible, the actual performance of the task would almost certainly be an executive branch function.

I can't see how that would have made things better over the past year.

Somehow, we have to enable us, as a society, to withstand the barrage of misinformation. I think government could play a role in that, but I think that role should be somehow by providing more information than by shutting down media outlets who say things that the executive branch does not want you to hear.

Not that anyone did that last year, or is planning on doing it this year, but I, personally, don't even want to take a baby step in that direction.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:13 PM   #154
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I see no problem with the government putting friction to the spread of made-up stories, simply because they are so much easier to manufacture and spread than actually investigated and edited ones.

It's just leveling a very uneven playing field.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:15 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I see no problem with the government putting friction to the spread of made-up stories, simply because they are so much easier to manufacture and spread than actually investigated and edited ones.

It's just leveling a very uneven playing field.
But the President is the part of government that gets to apply the friction. I just can't see how things would have been better if only Donald Trump had had the power to slow the spread of Fake News.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:45 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But the President is the part of government that gets to apply the friction. I just can't see how things would have been better if only Donald Trump had had the power to slow the spread of Fake News.
It would be like all the other times he abused the power of his office to get something he wanted.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:57 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But the President is the part of government that gets to apply the friction. I just can't see how things would have been better if only Donald Trump had had the power to slow the spread of Fake News.
you could solve the problem via barriers to litigation, as Trump was kinda hoping for:

a story based on proper investigation could be better shielded from frivolous lawsuits than a poorly researched one.
And opinion pieces as a rule could be marked as "not-news" and therefore lower priority.
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Old 25th February 2021, 12:30 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're wrong by a mile. I've been reading your posts pushing this narrative. But it is NONSENSE. What I see is a perfect example of what my father use to say.

"Figures don't lie,
but liars figure."

A half a million Americans are dead today because of COVID. And multiples of that will face long term health issues. Trump not only failed to respond to the problem, he dismissed it, he downplayed it and people died and will continue to die because of him.

And the MAGA MORONS marched along with his lunacy. He treated the scientists as if he knew better than they did. But Trump is a liar and a lunatic. And so is anyone who suggests that Trump managed this well.

My reply would be off topic, so I have replied here in a more relevant thread

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=765
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Old 25th February 2021, 12:43 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're wrong by a mile. I've been reading your posts pushing this narrative. But it is NONSENSE. What I see is a perfect example of what my father use to say.

"Figures don't lie,
but liars figure."

A half a million Americans are dead today because of COVID. And multiples of that will face long term health issues. Trump not only failed to respond to the problem, he dismissed it, he downplayed it and people died and will continue to die because of him.

And the MAGA MORONS marched along with his lunacy. He treated the scientists as if he knew better than they did. But Trump is a liar and a lunatic. And so is anyone who suggests that Trump managed this well.
Given the way your post started, I thought you might actually have evidence.

Turns out, you don't.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:02 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
It would be like all the other times he abused the power of his office to get something he wanted.
Indeed.

Does claiming that CNN, NBC, NYT and WAPO are "fake news" outlets, and calling them the "enemy of the people" count as Emily's "taking on 1st Am by proxy"?
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