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Old 25th February 2021, 01:22 AM   #161
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given the way your post started, I thought you might actually have evidence.

Turns out, you don't.
Once a partisan, always a partisan.

You are defending this:-

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat
Yes, hundreds of thousands have died. But you are implying that all of those who died did so explicitly because these specific news companies caused their deaths directly.
So, where's your evidence that this is a true statement?
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Old 25th February 2021, 02:44 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you follow the link to the only specific case your source mentions of drinking cleaning products, you get this:


It mentions some other examples of people with mental problems ingesting cleaners but surviving, and it never actually claims any specific source of motivation for them.

The one actual death it DOES mention is the case of hydroxychloroquine (not bleach) poisoning, but (1) hydroxychloroquine is a real medical treatment, so no lie involved, and (2) there's strong reason to suspect that this wasn't an accidental poisoning but deliberate homicide.

Now again, I'm not arguing that there's no connections here. But there's a difference between some probabilistic connection between a category of speech and a category out events, and a causal connection between specific speech and specific events. The law requires the latter in order to sanction speech. The former doesn't suffice, and for good reason.

It really wasn't necessary, but thank you for arguing my point that:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
If you tell people to drink bleach to cure Covid-19, people who believe you may drink bleach and some of them may die.

Similarly, if you lie about an election having been stolen some idiots may believe you and act accordingly, and if you lie about SARS-CoV-2 being no worse than the flu, some people may also believe you, act accordingly and help you spread the disease.

By the way, your claim that hydroxy "is a real medical treatment, so no lie involved," is not true. If you lie about a real medical treatment and claim that it is a cure for maladies that it doesn't cure at all, it is still a lie and may have serious consequences. Quacks do it all the time, and I think you already know that.
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:12 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It really wasn't necessary, but thank you for arguing my point that:
Quote:
If you tell people to drink bleach to cure Covid-19, people who believe you may drink bleach and some of them may die.
Who told people to drink bleach? Are you under the mistaken impression that Trump did?
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Old 25th February 2021, 05:30 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who told people to drink bleach? Are you under the mistaken impression that Trump did?
You appear to be under the mistaken impression that Trump did not suggest that ingesting bleach will cure Covid. This is easily remedied by seeking out news sources other than those you will defend to the death for their right to intentionally mislead their audiences to the harm of their viewers and the country.
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Old 25th February 2021, 05:46 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed.

Does claiming that CNN, NBC, NYT and WAPO are "fake news" outlets, and calling them the "enemy of the people" count as Emily's "taking on 1st Am by proxy"?
Obviously not.
That is taking on the 1st.A directly. Something clearly prohibited.

Taking it on by proxy is slipping around the news outlets themselves- and instead applying pressure to the platforms these outlets are carried on.

That is Just as insidious, and with a greater chance of actually manipulating the free press- as the platforms may not carry the direct protection of the 1st. the way the content producers do.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:20 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
It would be like all the other times he abused the power of his office to get something he wanted.
Precisely.

So I'm not inclined to give him, or some future tinpot dictator wannabe, more opportunities to abuse power.

I periodically have reason to read sections of The Federalist Papers. Most recently, it was the sections related to impeachment. What strikes me every time was that the authors were very much aware of the tendency of governments toward being corrupt and tyrannical, and how they built a constitution specifically to resist those tendencies. Freedom of the press is probably the single most important tool to resist those tendencies, and it should be guarded fanatically. I won't trust future presidents to not abuse that power any more than I would trust recently former presidents.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:24 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Precisely.

So I'm not inclined to give him, or some future tinpot dictator wannabe, more opportunities to abuse power.

I periodically have reason to read sections of The Federalist Papers. Most recently, it was the sections related to impeachment. What strikes me every time was that the authors were very much aware of the tendency of governments toward being corrupt and tyrannical, and how they built a constitution specifically to resist those tendencies. Freedom of the press is probably the single most important tool to resist those tendencies, and it should be guarded fanatically. I won't trust future presidents to not abuse that power any more than I would trust recently former presidents.
Ok, we can't trust the government to protect the public from press knowingly misinforming the public, we can't trust the press not to knowingly misinform the public, and we can't trust the public to be able to tell truth from lies. Where do we go from here?
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:44 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ok, we can't trust the government to protect the public from press knowingly misinforming the public, we can't trust the press not to knowingly misinform the public, and we can't trust the public to be able to tell truth from lies. Where do we go from here?
Indeed it is a difficult problem, but the only hope for a solution has to lie in fixing the last of the three issues you mention. If the public can't tell truth from lies, they will demand more lies, and politicians and businessmen will undoubtedly provide enough fodder to fulfill that appetite. Indeed, those in power will ensure a monopoly for their brand of lies by suppressing the truth if they have the power to do so.

Unfortunately, that one is also the most difficult to fix. I'm afraid I have no solutions. I'm inclined to believe that the solution involves creating a forum where the political ideas of the day are debated and discussed at length, as opposed to asserting things that can fit in a tweet, so that there is critical scrutiny applied to the issues of the day. Even if such an exercise would only appeal to the intellectuals of society, I have to believe the influence would trickle down.

Looking for something more specific? So am I, but one of the reasons I participate in this forum is to help me filter and refine ideas. Right now, this particular idea is, shall we say, a bit raw. I'm hoping that in discussing the topic, something more specific might occur to me. Sometimes that happens. Other times, I find myself no more enlightened than when I began.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:05 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You appear to be under the mistaken impression that Trump did not suggest that ingesting bleach will cure Covid. This is easily remedied by seeking out news sources other than those you will defend to the death for their right to intentionally mislead their audiences to the harm of their viewers and the country.
You've moved your goalpost. And it's still wrong.

But what's particularly telling is that you want me to look at "news sources" rather than actually listen to what he said. I have found quite often that what the press says Trump said isn't actually what Trump said. This is one of those cases.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:30 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You've moved your goalpost. And it's still wrong.

But what's particularly telling is that you want me to look at "news sources" rather than actually listen to what he said. I have found quite often that what the press says Trump said isn't actually what Trump said. This is one of those cases.
Nonsense. First of all, it wasn't my goalpost to begin with. You may want to read the name of the posters you quote in order to know who you are talking to.

Second of all, reputable news sources actually provide unedited footage of what Trump said. Your preferred sources edit their footage, leaving you and the rest of their audience with an inaccurate understanding of what was said. That you are still trying to argue this point demonstrates how little knowledge you actually have despite your posturing.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:45 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Indeed it is a difficult problem, but the only hope for a solution has to lie in fixing the last of the three issues you mention. If the public can't tell truth from lies, they will demand more lies, and politicians and businessmen will undoubtedly provide enough fodder to fulfill that appetite. Indeed, those in power will ensure a monopoly for their brand of lies by suppressing the truth if they have the power to do so.

Unfortunately, that one is also the most difficult to fix. I'm afraid I have no solutions. I'm inclined to believe that the solution involves creating a forum where the political ideas of the day are debated and discussed at length, as opposed to asserting things that can fit in a tweet, so that there is critical scrutiny applied to the issues of the day. Even if such an exercise would only appeal to the intellectuals of society, I have to believe the influence would trickle down.

Looking for something more specific? So am I, but one of the reasons I participate in this forum is to help me filter and refine ideas. Right now, this particular idea is, shall we say, a bit raw. I'm hoping that in discussing the topic, something more specific might occur to me. Sometimes that happens. Other times, I find myself no more enlightened than when I began.
Even if we start with the intellectuals we are still starting with some sort of group that's in charge of discussion. Sort of a... governing body, if you will. And the public's ability to understand the situation is down to what sort of education they receive, which is also going to be over seen by a governing body.

If we reject out if hand any role the government can play, then we have rejected any hope of a solution.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:46 AM   #172
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I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump asking about/suggesting that researchers could try injecting disinfectants to treat COVID, at a public COVID presser, “almost a cleaning,” etc got hyperbolised into the meme of ‘telling people to drink bleach.’ It’s trivially easy to check and I think most of us have seen the actual clip at some point, so/and I don’t think it’s intended as actual misinformation so much as ‘how is that materially more stupid/harmful than the things he literally said’

If your reaction is to say “you really can’t see the difference between telling people to drink bleach and suggesting to a researcher at a press conference that they oughtta try injecting people with disinfectant” I’m gonna say yes I can see the difference and it’s a deflection from the point. Which is that there was massive popular media support for the effort of downplaying the seriousness of covid AND for creating the meme that participating in mask-wearing etc is for sheeple who want to let the government control them; that the very idea of getting everyone to mask up is nothing but a nefarious social experiment in controlling the public. Stuff like that. That’s what’s lead to many surplus deaths and infections that could have been prevented. That’s what is on the right wing media.

The early mixed messaging about masks was a problem too, a problem that right wing media chose to exacerbate by bringing it up every five minutes as evidence that nobody’s health advice or policy is worth anything ever.

Last edited by Lithrael; 25th February 2021 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:47 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yeah, you go with claims that other countries don't exist.
That in no way at all follows from the post you're responding to. It's a ridiculous misrepresentation.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:57 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I have found quite often that what the press says Trump said isn't actually what Trump said. This is one of those cases.
For the refresh: https://www.politifact.com/article/2...isinfectant-/]

Quote:
Hereís the full context:
"A question that probably some of you are thinking of if youíre totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether itís ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasnít been checked, but youíre going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said youíre going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?"

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so itíd be interesting to check that, so that youíre going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, weíll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. Thatís pretty powerful."
Later, Trump clarified his comments after a reporter asked Bryan whether disinfectants could actually be injected into COVID-19 patients.
"It wouldnít be through injections, almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnít work, but it certainly has a big effect if itís on a stationary object."
As always, Trump said lots of things, but he did talk about injecting disinfectants by not injecting it.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:11 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who told people to drink bleach? Are you under the mistaken impression that Trump did?

So you appear to agree with me that:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Similarly, if you lie about an election having been stolen some idiots may believe you and act accordingly, and if you lie about SARS-CoV-2 being no worse than the flu, some people may also believe you, act accordingly and help you spread the disease.

By the way, your claim that hydroxy "is a real medical treatment, so no lie involved," is not true. If you lie about a real medical treatment and claim that it is a cure for maladies that it doesn't cure at all, it is still a lie and may have serious consequences. Quacks do it all the time, and I think you already know that.

Do you also think that quacks have or should have the right to lie? Or should the right be a privilege of leaders of state?
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:16 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Be careful with that P word!
If they can be described as publishers then they're fully liable for everything that ever gets posted on their platforms
I really don't think they count as publishers in any way at all. There's no editorial process, It's more like a digital coffee house. Maybe a club of some sort.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:18 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That in no way at all follows from the post you're responding to. It's a ridiculous misrepresentation.
I well defer to your expertise on ridiculous misrepresentation, as shown in what you claim to believe Congress is doing and/or threatening to do, but Zig is either denying the existence of countries with fewer Covid deaths, denying that those countries didn't have an entire group of propaganda outlets deliberately feeding false information to the public, or denying the concept that telling people to take no precautions in the face of a pandemic has a detrimental outcome. All three of those positions are so ridiculous as to be only worthy of mockery.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:20 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
One of the 3 right wingers arguing in this thread ..
I'm really curious how exactly your define "right winger". Can you provide a description of what makes a poster a "right winger"?
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:21 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Itís a free country.
At the rate we're going, I'm not sure it will be for much longer...
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:30 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm really curious how exactly your define "right winger". Can you provide a description of what makes a poster a "right winger"?
For the purposes of this thread: a person who takes the right wing position, or argues for the right wing position.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:36 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It’s a free country.
At the rate we're going, I'm not sure it will be for much longer...
There's no need for such fear mongering. The misinformation you wish to continue isn't believed by much of the country, so your news organizations won't be able to kill enough people to end the United States as a country.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:42 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
okay, what % would you attribute to Trump's handling and lack thereof?
Between 3% and 5%
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:47 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed.

Does claiming that CNN, NBC, NYT and WAPO are "fake news" outlets, and calling them the "enemy of the people" count as Emily's "taking on 1st Am by proxy"?
Borderline. It's inappropriate, at the very least. So far as I can tell though, Trump said a lot of incredibly stupid and asinine things, but he never actually tried to take action. He never sent directives or inquiries to the FCC in an attempt to get licenses revoked. He never actually sent White House letterheaded inquiries with veiled threats to any news station asking that a reporter be fired. He never sought legal or legislative action against the outlets he called fake.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:49 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed.

Does claiming that CNN, NBC, NYT and WAPO are "fake news" outlets, and calling them the "enemy of the people" count as Emily's "taking on 1st Am by proxy"?
And then there was all the winking at caring about the mere murder of a reporter by the saudis. He was an enemy of the american people after all why shouldn't they celebrate his death?
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:50 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Once a partisan, always a partisan.

You are defending this:-

So, where's your evidence that this is a true statement?
But that is the whole point, you can't keep fact on some pedestal and not give it equal weight to alternate fact, doing so is blatantly partisan.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:53 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
For the purposes of this thread: a person who takes the right wing position, or argues for the right wing position.
To be clear.
You find upholding the 1st Amendment to be the purview of the "right wing".
Interesting.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:59 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
To be clear.
You find upholding the 1st Amendment to be the purview of the "right wing".
Interesting.
No, you're wide of the mark again. This isn't a 1st Amendment issue. There is no government mandated speech or government prevention of free speech at play. Nor has it been proposed.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:59 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Borderline. It's inappropriate, at the very least. So far as I can tell though, Trump said a lot of incredibly stupid and asinine things, but he never actually tried to take action. He never sent directives or inquiries to the FCC in an attempt to get licenses revoked. He never actually sent White House letterheaded inquiries with veiled threats to any news station asking that a reporter be fired. He never sought legal or legislative action against the outlets he called fake.
His campaign did file at least one lawsuit. i don't remember exactly what it was. I know it was Covid-19 related, and involved cease and desist orders being sent out to media outlets that were (accurately) reporting on what he said about the pandemic. It was in the early days of the pandemic, probably March or possibly early in April. There was a thread about it.

It was pretty disgusting, if you ask me.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:04 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
For the purposes of this thread: a person who takes the right wing position, or argues for the right wing position.
Hmm. Not a helpful response. Can you be more specific? What is the "right wing position"?
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:04 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
His campaign did file at least one lawsuit. i don't remember exactly what it was. I know it was Covid-19 related, and involved cease and desist orders being sent out to media outlets that were (accurately) reporting on what he said about the pandemic. It was in the early days of the pandemic, probably March or possibly early in April. There was a thread about it.

It was pretty disgusting, if you ask me.
I missed that one. Yes, that's pretty disgusting and just as bad as this.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:09 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I missed that one. Yes, that's pretty disgusting and just as bad as this.

Here is a link to the first post in the thread. It was about a campaign ad, and it seems the lawsuit was never filed, just threatened.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post13034389


I'm still going with disgusting.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:13 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Between 3% and 5%
Reality is that you are off by an order of magnitude. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...545-9/fulltext

(Can't make a more substantial post right now responding to earlier ones but in short, 'lol never claimed only reason for being wrong is from being right wing'.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:18 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hmm. Not a helpful response. Can you be more specific? What is the "right wing position"?
Again, for the purposes of this thread: the pretense that the letters in the OP were meant to intimidate or threaten, the pretense that Covid misinformation did not result in more death, the claim that the right to mislead supersedes the right to live, etc.

Pretty much what you, Zig, and Distracted1 have been arguing.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:26 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Between 3% and 5%
Compared to what a Clinton administration would have done?
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:28 AM   #195
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I would guess that a first amendment argument about a government communication that does not explicitly require or forbid speech, would have to be based on a "chilling effect" doctrine.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment...hilling-effect

An example given was this case:

Quote:
In Lamont v. Postmaster General (1965), the Court struck down a postal regulation requiring individuals who wished to receive communist literature to sign up at the post office. Although the program included no sanctions against recipients, the Court said it would chill individuals who wanted the material but were afraid to make their wishes known to the government.
So the question is would that apply?
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:28 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That was a lie widely disseminated by MSNBC. Dr. Fauci, and CNN.
Should the carriers of those networks face disciplinary action?
Nope. You are repeating conspiracy theories that have been thoroughly debunked elsewhere.

First of all you are lying about the contents of these statements. No one urged people not to wear surgical masks.

Second while the actual contents of the statements proved to be incorrect they were not inconsistent with the scientific understanding at the time which was that surgical masks don't prevent you from the virus and there was no evidence (yet) that they would help prevent you from spreading it to someone else.

There is no way these would fail to pass any reasonable bar for harmful and unjust speech.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:33 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Precisely.

So I'm not inclined to give him, or some future tinpot dictator wannabe, more opportunities to abuse power.

I periodically have reason to read sections of The Federalist Papers. Most recently, it was the sections related to impeachment. What strikes me every time was that the authors were very much aware of the tendency of governments toward being corrupt and tyrannical, and how they built a constitution specifically to resist those tendencies. Freedom of the press is probably the single most important tool to resist those tendencies, and it should be guarded fanatically. I won't trust future presidents to not abuse that power any more than I would trust recently former presidents.
I agree, it's a complex issue.

It's definitely in the public's interest to ensure the press is doing their best to report truthful and accurate information. It's also in our best interest to ensure the press isn't acting as a surrogate for a particular political party. But maintaining a free press is critical.

Honestly, like most things, it probably comes down to financial transparency.
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:35 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Reality is that you are off by an order of magnitude. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...545-9/fulltext

(Can't make a more substantial post right now responding to earlier ones but in short, 'lol never claimed only reason for being wrong is from being right wing'.
Your reference doesn't address numbers related to covid at all as far as I can see. So... Are you claiming that this source, which is clearly not unbiased, somehow suggests that Trump's poor handling resulted in 30% to 50% more deaths than we otherwise would have experienced?

Our case fatality rates are actually pretty good.
http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visu...ies-normalized
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:39 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Again, for the purposes of this thread: the pretense that the letters in the OP were meant to intimidate or threaten, the pretense that Covid misinformation did not result in more death, the claim that the right to mislead supersedes the right to live, etc.

Pretty much what you, Zig, and Distracted1 have been arguing.
Lol, okay then.

1) The letters in the OP certainly seem intended to intimidate or threaten, but I suppose if one were particularly motivated to see them as harmless, one might suppose they're "just asking questions" and sweep it under the rug.

2) Of course Covid misinformation and Trump's antics resulted in more deaths. I just don't think it resulted in hundreds of thousands of more deaths - more like tens of thousands.

3) Freedom of the press is freedom of the press.

Seriously, WTF planet am I on where arguing that the government really needs to keep its fingers out of the press is being cast as a "right wing" position. I'm not right wing. If meeting your purity test for being not-right-wing requires me to stop using my brain and stop having principles, oh well.
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:39 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Compared to what a Clinton administration would have done?
Compared to what pretty much any other administration would have done.
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