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Old 26th February 2021, 08:58 AM   #241
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Germany maybe?

Plenty of thriving countries in the developed world have more restrictions on speech than the US.

For any broad area of policy you don't like, you could probly name a group of countries that implement some variation in an oppressive or harmful way. That's cherry picking.
I don't follow German politics. I would be willing to wager, however, that the entire Nation of Germany is not united in its' belief that its' laws regarding speech are fair, just, and effective, and that there is the occasional "problem" regarding where/when/ and how restrictions are applied.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:13 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I don't follow German politics. I would be willing to wager, however, that the entire Nation of Germany is not united in its' belief that its' laws regarding speech are fair, just, and effective, and that there is the occasional "problem" regarding where/when/ and how restrictions are applied.
I don't think many countries have many laws with 100% unified support.
I don't use that as my metric for evaluating laws. It would not be a useful one.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:22 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Seriously?

Given that USA death rate is so much higher than any other developed country where the messaging was correct, i.e. lockdown, socially distance, stay home and mask up, I would put it between 30% and 50%
Huh. I suppose we ought to let Belgium, the UK, Italy, and Portugal know that they don't count as developed countries...
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:25 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Huh. I suppose we ought to let Belgium, the UK, Italy, and Portugal know that they don't count as developed countries...
I have said that for years
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:28 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In other words, anything that insults any group at all.

Which makes most of the threads in this forum hate speech according to that definition. Can't insult Republicans, for example.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:30 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is meant to say probably do later. That was a typo.
OK. That makes a significant difference.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:39 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Any solution, therefore, has to come from the private sector, but at least large companies in the private sector don't have much incentive to do things differently, either. They got large by doing things the same.
At the moment, Substack seems to be a response. It's private, but not large companies.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not a study. It's political advocacy. Even the news report you reference notes that the authors are pushing an agenda. Have you even read the abstract? It's just a blame Trump masturbatory exercise, not a "well conducted study". And if you DID read the abstract and thought that sounded objective, then just wow.
I know you're used to having your playing the ref tactics coddled, but 'political' isn't a magic word that creates actual controversy. That GOP polices have so clearly harmed the United States is so many ways, including the response to white nationalism and Covid-19, is so crisply reflected in the data does not make following that evidence 'political'. That the evidence hurts political feelings needs to stop being an excuse, a flaccid handwave. Your insistence on political correctness isn't the fault of those doctors.

You can call whatever you want 'political', 'religious', or 'opinion', but that doesn't make it wrong. That's my 'religious' belief, so make sure not to violate it.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:46 AM   #249
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Here's Matt Taibbi's take on this:

Even By Democratic Party Standards, Censoring Fox News Is An Insanely Stupid Idea

Quote:
Sequences like this ó government ďrequestsĒ of speech reduction, made to companies subject to federal regulation ó make the content moderation decisions of private firms a serious First Amendment issue. Censorship advocates may think this is purely a private affair, in which the only speech rights that matter are those of companies like Twitter and Google, but any honest person should be able to see this for what it is.
The link is to the publicly available excerpt. The subscriber version contains a few additional perspectives that I'm including below.

Quote:
Fox absolutely does drift into outright deceptions, though it hardly has a monopoly on this behavior (more on that in a moment). But being the gigantic money-obsessed enterprise that it is, it still tends to steer clear of the worst kinds of offenses in this business, i.e. actionable lies.

...

This is exactly how the existing system is supposed to work, in a legal framework that still makes the cost of broadcasting provable deceptions prohibitive to deep-pocketed companies like Fox. Libel and defamation laws are imperfect, but effective. If the massive Fox audience were driven further underground, that tool would no longer be worth much.

However, those gunning for the removal of Fox, Newsmax, and other outlets are clearly not interested in getting there by way of the law. They want to take advantage of the hyper-concentration of power among media distributors ó the tech giants like Apple and Amazon that can zap a massively successful app like Parler overnight, and the confederation of cable carriers like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon that hold dominion over broadcast networks.

We have to ask politicians like Eshoo and critics like Sullivan and Boot: where exactly do they want massive conservative audiences to go, if Fox is removed from the air? By any rational standard, having them watch Fox is way down the list of worst-case scenarios.

...

Circumstances have come all the way around. Incredibly, Fox News may soon be the last line of defense against an all-out assault on the heterogenous free press as an institution, and people like me, whoíve despised the channel their whole lives, now find themselves in the unenviable position of having to defend the ďFair and BalancedĒ channel as a matter of self-preservation.

The local and alternative presses are already dying, and tech platforms have already successfully asserted their rights to censor. All that remains is to topple a behemoth like Fox as a show of strength, leaving an untouchable Soviet-style club of Chuck Todds and Jennifer Rubins and Max Boots in charge of disseminating an approvedô top-down version of reality. Are you excited yet?

Imagine the reaction! Do the Eshoos of the world think Fox viewers would just shrug off the L, and find ways to warm up to Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, and Joy Reid? To the many Fox-haters out there: imagine a world in which youíre told, by an unelected bund of cable distributors, that you have to get used to watching Tucker and Sean. Would you take that lying down? Or would you lose your mind with rage, and reach for something sharp? How does anyone think this is going to end well?
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:58 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I find it exceptionally disturbing that sex is NOT included in that list.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:42 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I find it exceptionally disturbing that sex is NOT included in that list.
It is included. It qualifies as an "identity factor". But then, just about anything can qualify as an "identity factor". It's hate speech to say that actual Nazis (ie, not just the people who get called that for reasons) are terrible, because that's "pejorative language" about a group based on their identity factor.

It's a ******* ridiculous definition, and the fact that not everybody realizes how bad it is, well, that's pretty disturbing.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:54 AM   #252
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If someone goes around falsely telling people don’t visit a certain doctor because they are a paedophile, the doctor can sue them and have a good chance to win. Why then can people not get redress if someone is saying “Don’t visit Jewish doctors because Jews are all paedophiles” (AKA hate speech)?

Yes there would be other requirements that would need to be met, but this is already the case with existing laws. It’s not that hard.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:57 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And yet we are faced with a huge dilemma today and that is Goebbels/Hitler/Trump big lie. A major political party and large media outlets are promoting disinformation that threatens not only our democracy, but our lives. America continues to face an existential crisis.

The gaslighting of Americans has reached epidemic proportions. We cannot solve the epidemic if people won't get the vaccine.

I use to think how stupid it was that in countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan were refusing to get vaccines for polio because of distrust spread by the Mullahs and others. And here today modern America is facing the same problem.

Are we going to let hundreds of thousands (maybe more) of people die because we can make common sense decisions?

The main difference between the US and the kinds of places you mention is that we have greater freedom of speech. We are free to counter the BS spread by those who think the vaccine lies.

The Big Lie is not effective, as it was in Nazi Germany, because we donít have a state-controlled media. The truth is freely available.

Our problem isnít so much that the lies are being spread, but that there is a receptive audience to those lies. Thatís a much different problem and you donít solve it by banning lies. All thatís going to do is make the conspiracy theories true.

You stop lies with truth. You spread truth by better education and teaching critical thinking skills rather than rote fact memorization. You spread truth by being vocal about the facts.

You canít simply ban a lie and expect people to stop spreading them amongst themselves. The plain fact is that there are a lot of ignorant people and they are going to believe lies. Fix the ignorance and lies have no more audience.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Which Country's example should we follow when legislating against types of speech?
North Korea? China? The Phillipines? They seem to be doing "just fine" punishing speech that is disagreeable, no?
How about Germany? Or Australia, Denmark, Sweden, the UK, New Zealand, France , New Zealand or even Canada?

Why is it you instantly go to dictatorships and authoritarian nations as opposed to Western democracies which clearly are better examples?
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:12 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How about Germany? Or Australia, Denmark, Sweden, the UK, New Zealand, France , New Zealand or even Canada?

Why is it you instantly go to dictatorships and authoritarian nations as opposed to Western democracies which clearly are better examples?
I guess each of those Western Nations has the exact same policy with regard to prohibited speech?
perhaps New Zealand is off base- and needs to adopt Canadas' policies lest they be accused of displaying "Kiwi Exceptionalism"
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:14 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You stop lies with truth. You spread truth by better education and teaching critical thinking skills rather than rote fact memorization. You spread truth by being vocal about the facts.
As an aside, I'm a mentor with a FIRST Robotics team. On Robotics teams, professional engineers (like me) work closely with high school kids to build robots for competitions. Working with high school students in an educational setting like this brings me into contact with a lot of teachers, and we discuss education and teaching.

I was very surprised to find out how much critical thinking is emphasized in the modern high school curriculum. i.e. back in my day (1970s), there was a lot more emphasis on facts, knowledge, data, and yes, rote memorization.

In theory, they really ought to be cranking out awesome critical thinkers, because it is the focus of what they do.

Maybe they are, and the problem is that the world is run by middle aged folks who didn't get that sort of education. If so, there's hope for the next generation.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:30 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I guess each of those Western Nations has the exact same policy with regard to prohibited speech?
perhaps New Zealand is off base- and needs to adopt Canadas' policies lest they be accused of displaying "Kiwi Exceptionalism"
I'm sure there are nuanced differences. But each of these countries prohibit hate speech as generally defined below.

Hate speech as speech, gestures, conduct, writing, or displays that incite violence or prejudicial actions against a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group, or which disparage or intimidate a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group.

I'd rather not weaken free speech laws and find gaslighting and disinformation to be a bigger threat than the hate speech to a point. I'm both troubled about instituting laws that limit speech and I'm troubled what happens to the country if we don't.

I think we're all looking at this with this concern.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:41 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The main difference between the US and the kinds of places you mention is that we have greater freedom of speech. We are free to counter the BS spread by those who think the vaccine lies.

The Big Lie is not effective, as it was in Nazi Germany, because we donít have a state-controlled media. The truth is freely available.

Our problem isnít so much that the lies are being spread, but that there is a receptive audience to those lies. Thatís a much different problem and you donít solve it by banning lies. All thatís going to do is make the conspiracy theories true.

You stop lies with truth. You spread truth by better education and teaching critical thinking skills rather than rote fact memorization. You spread truth by being vocal about the facts.

You canít simply ban a lie and expect people to stop spreading them amongst themselves. The plain fact is that there are a lot of ignorant people and they are going to believe lies. Fix the ignorance and lies have no more audience.
Who will be providing a better education? Who will be determining what is a better education? We're right back to needing a governing body to provide the solution, but apparently nobody wants to allow a governing body to solve the problem.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:43 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

The Big Lie is not effective, as it was in Nazi Germany, because we donít have a state-controlled media. The truth is freely available.
The constitution of the Weimar Republic explicitly prohibited censorship. The Nazi's took control anyway, Big Lies certainly do work without a state controlled media.

All you need for big lies to work is media outlets willing to repeat big lies.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:44 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I don't follow German politics. I would be willing to wager, however, that the entire Nation of Germany is not united in its' belief that its' laws regarding speech are fair, just, and effective, and that there is the occasional "problem" regarding where/when/ and how restrictions are applied.
Are we not to have laws that anyone at all thinks are unjust now? Prisons are full of people that think the law wasn't fair or just that put them there. I don't think the people who want to break the law should be the only ones we cater to when deciding whether or not to have laws.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:52 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The main difference between the US and the kinds of places you mention is that we have greater freedom of speech. We are free to counter the BS spread by those who think the vaccine lies.

The Big Lie is not effective, as it was in Nazi Germany, because we donít have a state-controlled media. The truth is freely available.

Our problem isnít so much that the lies are being spread, but that there is a receptive audience to those lies. Thatís a much different problem and you donít solve it by banning lies. All thatís going to do is make the conspiracy theories true.

You stop lies with truth. You spread truth by better education and teaching critical thinking skills rather than rote fact memorization. You spread truth by being vocal about the facts.

You canít simply ban a lie and expect people to stop spreading them amongst themselves. The plain fact is that there are a lot of ignorant people and they are going to believe lies. Fix the ignorance and lies have no more audience.
Ordinarily I wouldn't hesitate to agree. But the big lie got 74 million votes. And if you flip 70,000 votes in just a few states Trump wins reelection despite that Biden received 7 million more votes. People have more choices of where they get their news and unfortunately many seek only sources that confirm what they want to believe.

Day after day after day, the GOP and media conglomerates successfully convince enough people to threaten our lives and the whole system. Combine this with voter suppression, the electoral college, rural biased apportionment and hate groups who won't hesitate to wage violence and everything and everyone is endangered.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:54 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Are we not to have laws that anyone at all thinks are unjust now? Prisons are full of people that think the law wasn't fair or just that put them there. I don't think the people who want to break the law should be the only ones we cater to when deciding whether or not to have laws.
I agree.

Please bear in mind that the post of mine you were replying to was a response to claims that other countries have "no problem" working this particular issue out. An example given was Germany- my response was that I doubt Germany has it all worked out either.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:57 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have said that for years
Probably a lot of Belgians, UKians etc. feel that way about the U.S.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:25 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Probably a lot of Belgians, UKians etc. feel that way about the U.S.
Then they need to get in line behind me. The words I have for the US are far less kind.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:53 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The constitution of the Weimar Republic explicitly prohibited censorship. The Nazi's took control anyway, Big Lies certainly do work without a state controlled media.

All you need for big lies to work is media outlets willing to repeat big lies.
In terms of both purpose and function, for some of these media outlets I think itís difficult to point to a state controlled media and a free one. They go to political events as guests and speakers, not as reporters. They receive money from the same sources. They have the same lawyers. They take direct calls with politicians to coordinate their coverage.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:02 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If someone goes around falsely telling people donít visit a certain doctor because they are a paedophile, the doctor can sue them and have a good chance to win. Why then can people not get redress if someone is saying ďDonít visit Jewish doctors because Jews are all paedophilesĒ (AKA hate speech)?
Seems to me that already qualifies under slander. Don't know why you need a new category of speech restrictions to meet it.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:52 PM   #267
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Talking

I'm not. The spirit of free inquiry hasn't been honored here for years. I only logged on today to download my avatar gif 'cause I lost my only copy of the file. Figured I'd look around a little since I haven't stopped by in well over a year, and it didn't take 5 minutes to see there aren't many skeptics left here. I mean, c'mon, it's totally appropriate for members of congress to send such a letter. How dare you question their motives? You're not some kinda conspiracy theorist are ya?
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:17 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Who will be providing a better education? Who will be determining what is a better education? We're right back to needing a governing body to provide the solution, but apparently nobody wants to allow a governing body to solve the problem.

I think you are seeing the difficulty of the problem. You canít trust a government to always act in the best interests of the people. Thatís why the people have inalienable rights to free speech.

I think thatís important to note. In the US, Free Soeech isnít something the government gives us and itís not something they can take away. They can only limit speech in certain very limited and very narrow circumstances as established by SCOTUS precedent.

In other countries, Free Speech is something the government guarantees but also retains the right to limit.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:23 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hate speech as speech, gestures, conduct, writing, or displays that incite violence or prejudicial actions against a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group, or which disparage or intimidate a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group.
Inciting violence is already illegal. Inciting any illegal action is already illegal. If the "prejudicial actions" in question are legal, it seems like a very bad idea to try to make it illegal to engage in speech that encourages legal action.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:50 PM   #270
wareyin
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think you are seeing the difficulty of the problem. You canít trust a government to always act in the best interests of the people. Thatís why the people have inalienable rights to free speech.

I think thatís important to note. In the US, Free Soeech isnít something the government gives us and itís not something they can take away. They can only limit speech in certain very limited and very narrow circumstances as established by SCOTUS precedent.

In other countries, Free Speech is something the government guarantees but also retains the right to limit.
Your solution was at least partially a better education and more critical thinking taught. You still have to have some sort of governing body to decide what is a better education. That's government.

Saying that the government can't pass laws regarding telling the truth is false already, as we already have laws about telling lies in some situations. Tell a lie under oath, and free speech doesn't apply. Fraudulently misrepresent a house, car, or other product you're selling and free speech won't protect you. Claim that you are a medical doctor or police officer when you aren't, and free speech is not a defense.

Despite the histrionics from those dependent on telling lies to promote their politics and policies, the existence of laws preventing the telling of those lies has not resulted in a fascist state, the inability of people to tell the truth, or collapse of truth, justice, and the American way. I doubt very much that some kind of law preventing a news organization from intentionally misleading the public would, either. Especially if that news organization's actions had resulted in a riot in the Capitol Building or hundreds of thousands of deaths to a pandemic they were told was a hoax.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:31 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
I'm not. The spirit of free inquiry hasn't been honored here for years. I only logged on today to download my avatar gif 'cause I lost my only copy of the file. Figured I'd look around a little since I haven't stopped by in well over a year, and it didn't take 5 minutes to see there aren't many skeptics left here. I mean, c'mon, it's totally appropriate for members of congress to send such a letter. How dare you question their motives? You're not some kinda conspiracy theorist are ya?
Welcome to International True-Believers Forum, I guess?
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Old 27th February 2021, 01:12 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As an aside, I'm a mentor with a FIRST Robotics team. On Robotics teams, professional engineers (like me) work closely with high school kids to build robots for competitions. Working with high school students in an educational setting like this brings me into contact with a lot of teachers, and we discuss education and teaching.

I was very surprised to find out how much critical thinking is emphasized in the modern high school curriculum. i.e. back in my day (1970s), there was a lot more emphasis on facts, knowledge, data, and yes, rote memorization.

In theory, they really ought to be cranking out awesome critical thinkers, because it is the focus of what they do.

Maybe they are, and the problem is that the world is run by middle aged folks who didn't get that sort of education. If so, there's hope for the next generation.
My understanding is that we don't actually know how to teach critical thinking skills. People try, but studies that follow up on students after taking a critical thinking class always show them as not being any better at critical thinking that peers who didn't take such a class.

That's just my understanding, though. Maybe someone has figured it out since I last read about the subject.
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Old 27th February 2021, 01:34 AM   #273
dann
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In other countries, Free Speech is something the government guarantees but also retains the right to limit.

You really don't know anything about other countries, do you?!
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Old 27th February 2021, 01:44 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is hate speech? (UN)
Quote:
In the context of this document, the term hate speech is understood as any kind of communication in speech, writing or behaviour, that attacks or uses pejorative or discriminatory language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of who they are, in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality, race, colour, descent, gender or other identity factor.
I find it exceptionally disturbing that sex is NOT included in that list.

Why? Do you know the meaning of "or other identity"?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:27 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why? Do you know the meaning of "or other identity"?
Sex isn't an identity, it's a biological reality. I can't "identify" out of being female.
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Old 27th February 2021, 11:02 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sex isn't an identity, it's a biological reality. I can't "identify" out of being female.
because you have two X Chromosomes?
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Old 27th February 2021, 11:05 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
because you have two X Chromosomes?
AS a human, yes, pretty much. More broadly, as a mammal, it's because I am of the sex that normally has large immobile gametes.

Sex is not an identity, no more so than race is an identity, or disability is an identity. Trying to define it as an identity creates a situation in which the only arbiter is a person's word for what they identify as. Which is a strange approach when the trait in question in something that is present and persistent from the early stages of fetal development.
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Old 27th February 2021, 01:53 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
My understanding is that we don't actually know how to teach critical thinking skills. People try, but studies that follow up on students after taking a critical thinking class always show them as not being any better at critical thinking that peers who didn't take such a class.

That's just my understanding, though. Maybe someone has figured it out since I last read about the subject.
It certainly fits my observations.

The underlying message to my post was that it's all very well to say, "We need to teach critical thinking". The educational establishment heard that message loud and clear, and responded, but somewhere along the line between intention and execution, something went wrong. Here we are talking about how the problem with our nation is that so many people will believe a whole series of lies, unsupported by evidence, and yet our schools are allegedly focusing on the very skills which ought to allow people to see through the malarkey.
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Old 27th February 2021, 03:28 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It certainly fits my observations.

The underlying message to my post was that it's all very well to say, "We need to teach critical thinking". The educational establishment heard that message loud and clear, and responded, but somewhere along the line between intention and execution, something went wrong. Here we are talking about how the problem with our nation is that so many people will believe a whole series of lies, unsupported by evidence, and yet our schools are allegedly focusing on the very skills which ought to allow people to see through the malarkey.
I think itís very difficult to teach critical thinking and problem solving in mundane tasks. And I think the messaging and presentation of the lies is very sophisticated and the issues the lies are about are both remote and complicated.

That said, not sure how much cross over there is between those two groups.
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:57 AM   #280
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
... Hate speech as speech, gestures, conduct, writing, or displays that incite violence or prejudicial actions against a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group, or which disparage or intimidate a group or individuals on the basis of their membership in the group.
Agreed. As violence is already prohibited by law, no need to deal with it in this context. "Prejudicial actions", OTOH, are harder to define unless there is a common and well-understood standard, which in my view is that the speech seeks to deny rights and freedoms, is likely to or does result in such denial, or incites others to undertake or effect such denial. This allows one to easily dismiss, say, GOP complaints about people disagreeing with them, while easily identifying much GOP discourse as bona fide hate speech, down to open, unmistakable, protracted and ever-changing efforts to deny the most basic right of all, voting in elections. As for interpreting the meaning of any speech act, there are means available (linguistic field study) to identify its connotation and denotation among a community of speakers, and it does not require lawyers or fancy philosophizing to do so.

Quote:
I'd rather not weaken free speech laws and find gaslighting and disinformation to be a bigger threat than the hate speech to a point. I'm both troubled about instituting laws that limit speech and I'm troubled what happens to the country if we don't.
Gaslighting etc is another kettle of fish, and relates to the degree to which an audience is capable of rational thought based on factual matters with respect to a given domain or topic. Rather than appeal to teaching more "critical thinking", my view is that what needs and must be taught is how to identify and use/avoid reasoning based on:
  • facts
  • opinion
  • facts about opinion
  • opinion about facts
  • opinions about opinions
  • gibberish
Merely identifying which is which is, today, beyond the bulk of most Western adult populations, the crux of the challenges faced today.
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