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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:40 PM   #2521
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
WTBH was written by Linda Kulman. If she was merely a ghostwriter she would not have been credited as the author /joint author.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you don't even know what "ghostwriter" means, and (in this instance) what it does NOT mean.

Not surprised though. Again.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:43 PM   #2522
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop trolling. You know it's true.

What?

You're being asked to provide evidence to support your claims. If you think this is a definition of "trolling" then you're either grossly ignorant or grossly biassed. Or both.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:46 PM   #2523
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One of your lot was offering dirty pictures of Knox to the tabloids, which they considered too disgusting even for their rags, so how do you know it wasn't the same person who filched the diary?


1) Who are "your lot", please?

2) What actual reliable evidence do you have of anyone "offering dirty pictures of Knox to the tabloids"? Put up or shut up.

3) Who would have had access to Knox's prison diary in 2008?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:50 PM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That was on points of law. Chieffi heavily criticised Hellmann for failing to justify in legal terms why he had appointed them at all, amongst a myriad of other legal issues.


Yeah.... you STILL don't (or perhaps you still refuse to) understand that the Marasca SC pannel anulled Nencini and Massei - in fact, anulled and tossed out everything to do with the murder charges - on grounds of law.

The British Library is BOUND to have some good books about the scope and remit of Supreme Courts in general and the Italian Supreme Court in particular. I recommend the coffee in that place next to the first reading room.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:54 PM   #2525
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Originally Posted by toto View Post
I am not sure of the definitions of co-author (which I agree Linda Kulman is not credited as) or ghost writer ,but perhaps AK's comments explain all:

"I wouldn't have been able to write this memoir without Linda Kulman. Somehow, with her Post it Notes and questions, with her generosity, dedication, and empathy, she turned my ramblings into writing, and taught me so much in the meantime

Edited to add that of course you have just given definition of ghostwriter: I suppose LK could be seen to be that; not clear whether AK gave long extended interviews and they were shaped into a narrative by LK although it seems that way myself.


But you forget the part in that Knox quote above where she explicitly writes: "I wouldn't have been able to write this memoir without......."

I strongly suspect (from the available evidence, obviously) that Kulman acted as an editor and sounding board for Knox, but that (aside from from minor text and structure alterations - which is something that regular publishing editors frequently do anyhow) the text on the page was Knox's.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:08 PM   #2526
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Good luck with that. I'm guessing AIUI means that somebody made it up and since it supports a certain view of the case, it must be true.
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
1) Who are "your lot", please?

2) What actual reliable evidence do you have of anyone "offering dirty pictures of Knox to the tabloids"? Put up or shut up.

3) Who would have had access to Knox's prison diary in 2008?

Thanks in advance!
Not even 2008. The diary was confiscated in Nov. 2007 by the police (WTBH). Just why Vixen thinks it was her defense who 'filched' it, I have no idea. No, I take that back. I do.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:13 PM   #2527
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But you forget the part in that Knox quote above where she explicitly writes: "I wouldn't have been able to write this memoir without......."

I strongly suspect (from the available evidence, obviously) that Kulman acted as an editor and sounding board for Knox, but that (aside from from minor text and structure alterations - which is something that regular publishing editors frequently do anyhow) the text on the page was Knox's.
You'd think that Vixen, as an editor* herself, would understand how all that works.But, noooooooo...

* Nick van der Leek....bwaaahaaahaaaahaaaahaaaahaaaaa!!!!!!
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:15 PM   #2528
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I would say that is similar to a really engaged beta reader and editor. I get the feeling that certain posters doubt her ability to write but after reading her articles I have no doubt that she has that ability. Meaning she probably did learn a good bit.
Yes, I meant to suggest an editing role, but forgot. I agree AK can certainly write pretty well as I have read a number of her articles. She is also very articulate when speaking.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:17 PM   #2529
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But you forget the part in that Knox quote above where she explicitly writes: "I wouldn't have been able to write this memoir without......."

I strongly suspect (from the available evidence, obviously) that Kulman acted as an editor and sounding board for Knox, but that (aside from from minor text and structure alterations - which is something that regular publishing editors frequently do anyhow) the text on the page was Knox's.
Yes. You are right. I am watching Black Mirror at the same time so am not really concentrating.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:54 PM   #2530
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I did a bit more research and was able to locate the location of the light switch downstairs that had the droplets of blood: the hallway near the living room.

Bonassi Deposition:
Quote:
A. In the hall, on the plate of the light switch, I do not remember having noticed stains of blood.

Riccardo Lucciano Depostion
Quote:
A. I have never noticed spots of blood on the switch in the living hall.
In the police downstairs video (at 8:07 both are visible), there are two light switches in the living room/hall area. One by the front door with a chair next to it and the other between the green bureau and another door. Both would provide a higher position from which blood could spatter from a cat shaking its head. The one by the green bureau would be at almost the same height as a cat.

Something I just noticed: the window in the downstairs bathroom is OPEN. It's dark but look carefully at the chrome latch handle to the right of the white shutter. The window is open at a 45 degree angle making it appear like it's the casement around the window at first. The video goes by it very quickly, but when I froze the screen and enlarged it. it was definitely an open window. Since the window has a bars, the was no safety reason not to leave it open. So that is how the cat got in and out. Also notice there is blood spatter on the bathroom wall (about 8:53 in the video).
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:13 PM   #2531
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I did a bit more research and was able to locate the location of the light switch downstairs that had the droplets of blood: the hallway near the living room.

Bonassi Deposition:



Riccardo Lucciano Depostion


In the police downstairs video (at 8:07 both are visible), there are two light switches in the living room/hall area. One by the front door with a chair next to it and the other between the green bureau and another door. Both would provide a higher position from which blood could spatter from a cat shaking its head. The one by the green bureau would be at almost the same height as a cat.

Something I just noticed: the window in the downstairs bathroom is OPEN. It's dark but look carefully at the chrome latch handle to the right of the white shutter. The window is open at a 45 degree angle making it appear like it's the casement around the window at first. The video goes by it very quickly, but when I froze the screen and enlarged it. it was definitely an open window. Since the window has a bars, the was no safety reason not to leave it open. So that is how the cat got in and out. Also notice there is blood spatter on the bathroom wall (about 8:53 in the video).
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...988cf41ec8.jpg


Stacy: is that still you've shown here DEFINTELY from the bathroom in the lower cottage (i.e. the one in which the chair had been placed)?


ETA: I've now found the actual video to which you were referring, and yes I can see that it's the bathroom.

However I'm interested in the whitewashed wall and door that can be seen (in semi-lighting) out of that window. This would imply that there was actually a building opposite that part of the larger house structure, and it would further imply that the car port effectively formed the roof of such a building. I'll try to find daytime exterior photographs which show what lies opposite that part of the large house structure and underneath the car port.

Also, the chair in question is not within the bathroom when that crime-scene video is being filmed (it's clearly visible outside the door to the bathroom). So was the chair truly within the bathroom when the police initially entered the lower cottage? If so, it would appear to be extremely lax of the police to have moved the chair before they recorded the condition of the lower cottage on video (but of course, nothing would really surprise me about the sloppiness of Stefanoni and her "crack" team of (largely unqualified) scene of crime team.....)

Last edited by LondonJohn; 11th September 2019 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:15 PM   #2532
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Stacy: is that still you've shown here DEFINTELY from the bathroom in the lower cottage (i.e. the one in which the chair had been placed)?
That's what it says on the video. My pic is a snip of the actual video I had paused. I'll double check to be 100% sure.

ETA: Yes...it's 100% the downstairs apartment. It's near the end of the video.
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-...irs-apartment/

ETA: changed the link to the correct video.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 11th September 2019 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:16 PM   #2533
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The ECHR made no comment or decision whatsoever about the HIV test.

I know this is a long shot, but here goes: Do you have any evidence that "HIV test was routinely given to all prisoners as part of the prison healthcare service and support"? Nigel Scott, in his linked article, cites the official policy regarding HIV testing which said an HIV test could only be administered with the consent of the prisoner. Knox never gave consent.

Besides the irregularities pointed out in Nigel Scott's article, there are other factors which indicate Amanda was lied to she had HIV. Numerous abuses were comitted by the police/prosecution. Amanda and Raffaele were denied access to lawyers, their interrogations were not taped, false information was fed to the media, evidence was supressed and destroyed and the prosecution committed perjury. Lying to Amanda she had HIV is exactly the sort of dirty trick you would expect from corrupt police/prosecutors. Why there is no evidence a genuine HIV test was carried out and details such as when and where was Amanda's blood tested don't exist and no documentation has emerged showing a test was carried out.

I find it utterly repulsive that Amanda is the victim of the most disgusting lie possible but is attacked by Vixen and other PGP for lying. If the prosecution had a mountain of evidence and a slam dunk case against Amanda and Raffaele, why would they need to resort to dirty tricks like lying to Amanda she had HIV?
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:09 PM   #2534
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Another interesting thing I noted was that the chair in the bathroom was not in the same place in the video as in the still photo. It had been moved to the side of the sink. This is visible at 8:21. The clothing on the floor had also been moved. The still photos do not have a time stamp so I don't know when they were taken. What was the original position of the chair? Was it moved by the police to the center of the room or did was it there when they arrived? TMoMK says labels ALL the pictures as taken on Nov. 2, but no pictures at all taken on Nov. 3. I don't know if this is accurate or not.

This is a police photo of the downstairs bathroom window. Notice it is open.


ETA: notice the blood drop is on the outside of the casement rather than the inside. It makes more sense that this would be left there by an injured cat passing through the open window rather than being left by a person.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 11th September 2019 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:35 PM   #2535
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
The Chieffi court was so mad they couldn't finalize a Knox conviction. Haha, suckazzzzz
What? It acted correctly in deferring it back to the lower court that erred. However, as the lower court concerned (Hellmann) had been so egregious and defective in a fatally devastating way, it was remitted to a completely new court (Nencini) in a completely different region, away from the corrupt influences of the offending court.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:36 PM   #2536
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Ah, er, no that's not it. The Chieffi panel had said no such thing.
Yes it did. Read the Chieffi report and stop displaying flagrant ignorance.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:38 PM   #2537
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
First Highlight:
I agree, if you stand on a chair (as located in the video) you likely couldn't see anything but the wall as it lowers the line of sight outside. Which is why I said earlier that one would stand close to the window and look up from the lower part of the window.

Second Highlight: TruthCalls never said that. He did say

#2442

This larger window just next to the bathroom window:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...95016a0ead.png

Third Highlight:

Amanda said she saw the feces as she was putting the hairdryer back (WTBH pg. 66). Police video (Nov 2, 2007) show that hair dryer at the extreme end of the counter closest to the toilet. Below is an aerial view of that bathroom. The hair dryer (not visible in this photo) is lying just on the other side of the short wall to the right. That is approx. 6 feet from the toilet, not the ridiculous ' up to 20 ft' you speculate. There is no reason she could not look down into that toilet bowl and see the feces.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...95a1d082ee.jpg
That is not a window that is a sealed unused door.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:42 PM   #2538
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
For anyone who actually want to read an English translation of what the Chieffi Court actually said....

https://chieffireport.wordpress.com/...-sample-trace/

It is bewildering why you, gentle reader, would want to read actual text, rather than taking anyone's word here for it. Vixen and me included.

You will read in the first, long paragraph, that even though the Supreme Court (Chieffi panel) wanted to quibble with the reasoning given, the need given by the Hellmann/Zannetti second-level court could not be questioned. At. All ....
Imagine that. The Chieffi panel actually said....

THE

EXACT

OPPOSITE

OF

WHAT

VIXEN

CLAIMED.

The exact opposite. Is Vixen, then, simply uninformed, or is she lying?
Grow up and stop using childish language. Read the Chieffi report again. It clearly states that whilst the lower court (Hellmann) was within its jurisdictional remit to appoint independent expert witnesses, it erred in that it did not provide an explanation substantiating its decision.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:44 PM   #2539
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What?

You're being asked to provide evidence to support your claims. If you think this is a definition of "trolling" then you're either grossly ignorant or grossly biassed. Or both.
Sorry, are you denying Amanda Knox ever claimed she was forced to list her sex partners and this meme was picked up by her supporters?
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:45 PM   #2540
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
1) Who are "your lot", please?

2) What actual reliable evidence do you have of anyone "offering dirty pictures of Knox to the tabloids"? Put up or shut up.

3) Who would have had access to Knox's prison diary in 2008?

Thanks in advance!
This has been discussed on the forum before so please do a search on the name Frank Sfarzo.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:47 PM   #2541
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yeah.... you STILL don't (or perhaps you still refuse to) understand that the Marasca SC pannel anulled Nencini and Massei - in fact, anulled and tossed out everything to do with the murder charges - on grounds of law.

The British Library is BOUND to have some good books about the scope and remit of Supreme Courts in general and the Italian Supreme Court in particular. I recommend the coffee in that place next to the first reading room.
Nencini and Marasca were never on trial, were never convicted or sentenced and thus, were never 'annulled'.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:48 PM   #2542
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But you forget the part in that Knox quote above where she explicitly writes: "I wouldn't have been able to write this memoir without......."

I strongly suspect (from the available evidence, obviously) that Kulman acted as an editor and sounding board for Knox, but that (aside from from minor text and structure alterations - which is something that regular publishing editors frequently do anyhow) the text on the page was Knox's.
No she was not an editor. She wrote the book. 'As told to' Linda Kulman.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:50 PM   #2543
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Originally Posted by toto View Post
Yes. You are right. I am watching Black Mirror at the same time so am not really concentrating.
Black Summer is quite good.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:54 PM   #2544
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Stacy: is that still you've shown here DEFINTELY from the bathroom in the lower cottage (i.e. the one in which the chair had been placed)?


ETA: I've now found the actual video to which you were referring, and yes I can see that it's the bathroom.

However I'm interested in the whitewashed wall and door that can be seen (in semi-lighting) out of that window. This would imply that there was actually a building opposite that part of the larger house structure, and it would further imply that the car port effectively formed the roof of such a building. I'll try to find daytime exterior photographs which show what lies opposite that part of the large house structure and underneath the car port.

Also, the chair in question is not within the bathroom when that crime-scene video is being filmed (it's clearly visible outside the door to the bathroom). So was the chair truly within the bathroom when the police initially entered the lower cottage? If so, it would appear to be extremely lax of the police to have moved the chair before they recorded the condition of the lower cottage on video (but of course, nothing would really surprise me about the sloppiness of Stefanoni and her "crack" team of (largely unqualified) scene of crime team.....)
You can see all of the 'cat' blood marks here, together with the crime scene photos. The chair was not moved. It is photographed exactly how it was found.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:00 AM   #2545
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
Besides the irregularities pointed out in Nigel Scott's article, there are other factors which indicate Amanda was lied to she had HIV. Numerous abuses were comitted by the police/prosecution. Amanda and Raffaele were denied access to lawyers, their interrogations were not taped, false information was fed to the media, evidence was supressed and destroyed and the prosecution committed perjury. Lying to Amanda she had HIV is exactly the sort of dirty trick you would expect from corrupt police/prosecutors. Why there is no evidence a genuine HIV test was carried out and details such as when and where was Amanda's blood tested don't exist and no documentation has emerged showing a test was carried out.

I find it utterly repulsive that Amanda is the victim of the most disgusting lie possible but is attacked by Vixen and other PGP for lying. If the prosecution had a mountain of evidence and a slam dunk case against Amanda and Raffaele, why would they need to resort to dirty tricks like lying to Amanda she had HIV?

Given Amanda Knox' lifestyle choices, which in her own words was to sleep with as many guys as possible to gain sexual experience and was actually sleeping with a convicted cocaine drug dealer almost ten years older, it was to her benefit to have been tested for HIV as the earlier it is diagnosed the better the prognosis.

The claim she was told she had a positive HIV test out of sheer victimisation is disgraceful defamation of the doctor concerned without any foundation.

Any doctor who agrees to work in a prison amongst all sorts, prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves and murderers, etc, is more likely to be a caring type than the ones who prefer rich private patients only.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:02 AM   #2546
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Another interesting thing I noted was that the chair in the bathroom was not in the same place in the video as in the still photo. It had been moved to the side of the sink. This is visible at 8:21. The clothing on the floor had also been moved. The still photos do not have a time stamp so I don't know when they were taken. What was the original position of the chair? Was it moved by the police to the center of the room or did was it there when they arrived? TMoMK says labels ALL the pictures as taken on Nov. 2, but no pictures at all taken on Nov. 3. I don't know if this is accurate or not.

This is a police photo of the downstairs bathroom window. Notice it is open.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...999dedf326.jpg

ETA: notice the blood drop is on the outside of the casement rather than the inside. It makes more sense that this would be left there by an injured cat passing through the open window rather than being left by a person.
Nothing was moved. It was likely just shot from a different angle.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:29 AM   #2547
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What? It acted correctly in deferring it back to the lower court that erred. However, as the lower court concerned (Hellmann) had been so egregious and defective in a fatally devastating way, it was remitted to a completely new court (Nencini) in a completely different region, away from the corrupt influences of the offending court.
Ya they telegraphed what they wanted the Nencini court to do (find her guilty). I think what they didn't realize, in their brief glance before rubber stamping the prosecution's appeal and rewording it into their motivation report, is that the case against Knox was actually garbage and Hellmann wasn't wrong.

Either that or I'm delusional and M&B overturned Nencini because of the mafia. One or the other right?
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:41 AM   #2548
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Ya they telegraphed what they wanted the Nencini court to do (find her guilty). I think what they didn't realize, in their brief glance before rubber stamping the prosecution's appeal and rewording it into their motivation report, is that the case against Knox was actually garbage and Hellmann wasn't wrong.

Either that or I'm delusional and M&B overturned Nencini because of the mafia. One or the other right?
That's what higher courts do. They direct the lower court to correct its legal error by reassessing the issue in question.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:59 AM   #2549
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not a window that is a sealed unused door.
Yep, I agree. Does look like the top half is glass however. Should be easy to see through...
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:18 AM   #2550
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Appears to be the same type of door that had the glass kicked in on the other side.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:43 AM   #2551
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Appears to be the same type of door that had the glass kicked in on the other side.
Even if there was a clear view from that door, there is little to zero view of who or what is approaching from the cottage's main entrance, which leads first to a car parking space.

It is too far back.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:53 AM   #2552
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No she was not an editor. She wrote the book. 'As told to' Linda Kulman.
I don't see that quote on my copy.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:54 AM   #2553
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even if there was a clear view from that door, there is little to zero view of who or what is approaching from the cottage's main entrance, which leads first to a car parking space.

It is too far back.
It's a better angle from the door, with a better line of sight, in my opinion.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:56 AM   #2554
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yep, much better....

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incomin...retrial%20.jpg
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:28 AM   #2555
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you denying Amanda Knox ever claimed she was forced to list her sex partners and this meme was picked up by her supporters?

What are you on about now??

Let me make it easier for you to understand, by summarising the flow of events on this matter. Ready? OK:


1) You claimed that "Knox supporters" were putting it about that Knox "was forced to list all her sexual partners" in prison after the first HIV positive test:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12816280


2) Stacy asked you - twice - for the evidence to support your claim in (1) above:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12816759

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12816799


3) You replied, not with the evidence to support your claim in (1) above, but rather to accuse Stacy of trolling:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12816803


4) I replied to that post of yours, to point out that Stacy was most assuredly NOT "trolling" - rather, she was asking you to provide evidence to support your claim in (1) above:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12817032


5) You then "responded" to my post above with the post quoted at the top here, which attempted (unsuccessfully) to reverse the burden of proof:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12817484


See, Vixen: it was YOU who made the claim that "Knox supporters" were putting it about that Knox had been "forced" to list her sexual partners.

And in the world of critical thinking, Vixen, the onus is therefore entirely upon you to present evidence to support your claim, or to withdraw your claim. You don't get to turn the tables, Vixen.


So...... either present on this thread some reliable evidence to support your claim - this could be, for example, in the form of anything published (or indeed anything written online by someone from the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence community) where it was stated that Knox was "forced" to list her sexual partners....

....or withdraw the claim.


Put up or shut up, Vixen. It's your choice.


(PS: please be sure to let me know if you need it explained in even further simplicity)
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:35 AM   #2556
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This has been discussed on the forum before so please do a search on the name Frank Sfarzo.


I'm talking about reliable evidence, Vixen.

Not "something that Peter Quennell and his mythical "team of lawyers"" introduced out of thin air.

Not "it's been said that....."

Not "Seattle is abuzz with....."

And not "Google Frank Sfarzo", Vixen.


Actual, reliable, documentary evidence, Vixen.


How is it that you still appear unable to comprehend the way it works: you make a claim, you have the burden of proof to reliably support that claim (or else to withdraw it).

So: reliable evidence please, that Frank Sfarzo (I assume it's him that you're accusing here) attempted to sell "dirty photos of Knox" to the tabloids.



(Not to mention the question of how Sfarzo would ever have got hold of such photos in any case..... But let's tackle the initial question first, eh?)
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:36 AM   #2557
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nencini and Marasca were never on trial, were never convicted or sentenced and thus, were never 'annulled'.


Oh dear oh dear.

I am talking about their verdicts (obviously), Vixen. Not the people themselves.

SMH (as I believe the internet initials go....)
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:38 AM   #2558
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can see all of the 'cat' blood marks here, together with the crime scene photos. The chair was not moved. It is photographed exactly how it was found.


Where is that chair in the crime scene video, Vixen?

(Please take the trouble to actually watch that video before attempting a response....)
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:40 AM   #2559
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing was moved. It was likely just shot from a different angle.

You're obviously joking, right?

Please watch the crime scene video. It shows the entirety of the floor of the bathroom. And it shows the way into the bathroom. And in that video, Vixen, the chair is most certainly NOT in the bathroom - it's outside the bathroom door.

Watch the video. Then figure it out for yourself.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:41 AM   #2560
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I don't see that quote on my copy.


That's because Vixen simply made it up, to try to support her own beliefs. It's a lie.

Again, nothing new under the Sun......
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