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Old 11th September 2019, 05:49 AM   #41
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't think you need to share every political opinion with people you share a political demonstration with.

But when the central mass of people you're marching with start chanting "Jews will not replace us" and you think it's okay to keep marching by their side, you're not very fine people.
Further, the rally was organized by unabashed neo nazis, e.g. Spencer. Everyone not named Rip Van Winkle knew it was a neo nazi rally. And even Rip would have gleaned a clue when he observed the tiki torches and chants.

But no, according to Trump cultists, Aunt Betty and the good people in the local historical preservation society didn't catch on, and they blithely joined in.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In my experience that's usually the case regardless of ideology. Some people "rebel" against authority but they always band together in even more tightly-knit, hierarchical groups. Nazis are no different.

Not disagreeing with your post. Just adding to it.

Humans are naturally gregarious and prone to hierarchical social structures, millions of years of evolution saw to that.

However, there is a difference between banding together with like-minded people for support, and a collectivist worldview. Nearly all other worldviews are individual; even when they incorporate group-based values, they are still very much rooted in the individual and individual responsibility and adherence to those values. Even progressivism and garden-variety conservativism are inherently individualist. They're cooperative rather than collective.

Fascism, like communism, simply cannot exist outside the collective, because all it's values are based in the group and allegiance to the group; and are predominantly performative as well. There's no room for dissent or difference of opinion that in any way challenges the coherency of the collective.

Quote:
However, dudalb did say he was an absolutist, which in fact denies those limits.

Unless he is in favour of eliminating libel/slander laws, incitement laws, perjury laws, and so on, then he's not an absolutist; he's just as selective as anyone else, merely with different selection criteria. Which is true of almost any "free speech" extremist.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Humans are naturally gregarious and prone to hierarchical social structures, millions of years of evolution saw to that.

However, there is a difference between banding together with like-minded people for support, and a collectivist worldview. Nearly all other worldviews are individual; even when they incorporate group-based values, they are still very much rooted in the individual and individual responsibility and adherence to those values. Even progressivism and garden-variety conservativism are inherently individualist. They're cooperative rather than collective.

Fascism, like communism, simply cannot exist outside the collective, because all it's values are based in the group and allegiance to the group; and are predominantly performative as well. There's no room for dissent or difference of opinion that in any way challenges the coherency of the collective.
A good point. Food for thought.

Quote:
Unless he is in favour of eliminating libel/slander laws, incitement laws, perjury laws, and so on, then he's not an absolutist; he's just as selective as anyone else, merely with different selection criteria. Which is true of almost any "free speech" extremist.
Well, I'll let him respond to that.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:06 AM   #44
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I can't see why "is an active political party" should be the bar for whether these white-nationalist-supremecist-whatever groups pose a threat.

That's really only a warning sign that a publicly identified member is about to ascend to office in this coming election, which is not the only way in which ideological groups can be a threat and identifies a pretty narrow time frame.

Before the Tea Party was a party (which it barely ever was, and it gave it's power to a wing of the GOP almost instantly) the sentiments of the Tea party, it's precursors, were a bunch of crank groups. Then pretty quickly they coalesced and suddenly had a pretty major say in the direction of the GOP and a fair sized role in the values of the party that eventually put forward Donald Trump.

While we're on the subject of Nazis, before there was a Nazi party, there were a bunch of social collections of Friekorps paramilitary and young men angry at communism and racial purity enthusiasts. Most were farther from being political parties as the current alt-right now is.

Evangelical churches and 8chan message boards aren't political parties, but they throw their support behind a party and that alliance shifts the party's values and composition.

All this is even just looking narrowly at political outcomes, there are other negative actions to be wary of that deserve other posts. This is all to say that you do not need to be a political party to have a huge political impact.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:04 AM   #45
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Proud Boys and others have engaged in voter suppression efforts - just because they aren't running for office themselves doesn't mean they aren't politically active.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:12 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Further, the rally was organized by unabashed neo nazis, e.g. Spencer. Everyone not named Rip Van Winkle knew it was a neo nazi rally. And even Rip would have gleaned a clue when he observed the tiki torches and chants.

But no, according to Trump cultists, Aunt Betty and the good people in the local historical preservation society didn't catch on, and they blithely joined in.
It was also a rally organized with the explicit goal of uniting various white supremacist groups into a single bloc and to present it as a viable part of American politics (through things like dressing respectably and discouraging people from marching with Nazi flags; Spencer is all about normalization, it's it's why he created the term "alt-right" in the first place). There's a reason it was called "Unite the Right."

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Old 11th September 2019, 09:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I can't see why "is an active political party" should be the bar for whether these white-nationalist-supremecist-whatever groups pose a threat.
Yea it is like those crazy activists who argued that the KKK was some kind of threat to anyone. THey never were a political party and as such were never any kind of threat. Just your basic social club.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Proud Boys and others have engaged in voter suppression efforts - just because they aren't running for office themselves doesn't mean they aren't politically active.
I'm sure they did. They pick fights pretty much wherever they can. Because that's pretty much all they are and do. Bunch of knuckleheads who beat up others and each other.

Are they a fascist threat? Seems like they weaken or discredit their movement to me. How many members are they, anyway? Increasing or decreasing in size and organization?

I think that's the OP question: do these white power groups pose a threat of fascist takeover? Or are they a bunch of twats who's pitiful attempts to organize invariably collapse from within? Who shows a live threat nowadays?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:23 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
It was also a rally organized with the explicit goal of uniting various white supremacist groups into a single bloc and to present it as a viable part of American politics (through things like dressing respectably and discouraging people from marching with Nazi flags; Spencer is all about normalization, it's it's why he created the term "alt-right" in the first place). There's a reason it was called "Unite the Right."
That's true. Hey, how'd that work out for them?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:29 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think that's the OP question: do these white power groups pose a threat of fascist takeover? Or are they a bunch of twats who's pitiful attempts to organize invariably collapse from within? Who shows a live threat nowadays?
You've paraphrased the OP inaccurately.

Here's what was actually said (highlighting mine):
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
In a recent discussion of the "Straight Pride" parade, there was some discussion of whether the racists elements in a number of groups within the US constituted a real threat or if they're merely tiny groups of idiots who can't possibly have a meaningful negative impact.
Note that it merely says "threat". Not "threat of fascist takeover". That qualifier was something you manufactured.

White power groups do pose a threat, and rapidly increasing one.

Do you deny this? Or do you need someone to post the relevant statistics for the 1,000th time?

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Old 11th September 2019, 09:36 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think that's the OP question: do these white power groups pose a threat of fascist takeover?
Not exactly. My question is broader about what sorts of risk these groups might represent. Fascist takeover is one kind of risk to look at, but to the extent that we find none of them are ready to be the ruling political party next election, I don't think I'm ready to wipe my brow and say "Whew, no real danger then".

There are other kinds of danger than direct fascist takeover, and even other pathways to something in the ballpark of "fascist takeover" than a single currently existing group ascending to absolute power.


Quote:
Or are they a bunch of twats who's pitiful attempts to organize invariably collapse from within? Who shows a live threat nowadays?
You're focusing on their prowess as political organizers which is missing the point in a few ways. For one, building their single group to be a highly effective political force is not the only way they can be a part of a devastating effect. For another, as has been repeated often, the groups that have succeeded at taking over countries have looked just as pathetic at some point in their past, until the didn't.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's true. Hey, how'd that work out for them?
They seem pretty happy.

Their growing number of murder victims, not so much.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Not exactly. My question is broader about what sorts of risk these groups might represent. Fascist takeover is one kind of risk to look at, but to the extent that we find none of them are ready to be the ruling political party next election, I don't think I'm ready to wipe my brow and say "Whew, no real danger then".

There are other kinds of danger than direct fascist takeover, and even other pathways to something in the ballpark of "fascist takeover" than a single currently existing group ascending to absolute power.




You're focusing on their prowess as political organizers which is missing the point in a few ways. For one, building their single group to be a highly effective political force is not the only way they can be a part of a devastating effect. For another, as has been repeated often, the groups that have succeeded at taking over countries have looked just as pathetic at some point in their past, until the didn't.
You're right, since this thread spun off of the other, where the discussion was more focused on the rise of the fourth Reich, I was still arguing along those lines.

Are violent groups a threat? Of course, any and all to some degree.

Do they push some to more extremism than they would go to on their own? Probably so.

The big one: are they mainstreaming what were once fringe beliefs? I'm afraid so. More than the political threat, I worry about the social threat of resetting the bar for what is civilized. Some Muslim bashing here, some white pride 'chauvinism' there, and people start thinking of reprehensible behavior as 'difference of opinion'. That's no bueno.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:57 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They seem pretty happy.

Their growing number of murder victims, not so much.
Really hate that guy. I cheered quite a bit for his punching. My favorite was the one set to Hollaback Girl. Nice rhythm.

But now his influence has faded, and tremendously. Dickless Spencer is only remembered for getting punched on camera, and later for getting outsmarted and jeered off the stage by Floridians.

So how's that unite the right thing working out? United, much? Or fragmenting further?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You've paraphrased the OP inaccurately.

Here's what was actually said (highlighting mine):


Note that it merely says "threat". Not "threat of fascist takeover". That qualifier was something you manufactured.

White power groups do pose a threat, and rapidly increasing one.

Do you deny this? Or do you need someone to post the relevant statistics for the 1,000th time?
It's a little precious that you still can't figure out that we are basically on the same side.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Does a person advocating against the removal of a statue have to be a white nationalist, because other groups that advocate it were?

Of course not, just don't tell the OP, he seems to be confused by the notion that two different groups of people can share something in common, yet can still be different in other ways.
On average, how many times a week do you find yourself sharing common goals with white nationalists? Or marching next to them in pursuit of those goals?
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Really hate that guy. I cheered quite a bit for his punching. My favorite was the one set to Hollaback Girl. Nice rhythm.

But now his influence has faded, and tremendously. Dickless Spencer is only remembered for getting punched on camera, and later for getting outsmarted and jeered off the stage by Floridians.

So how's that unite the right thing working out? United, much? Or fragmenting further?
*checks who lives at the White House*

Still seems to be going pretty well.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's a little precious that you still can't figure out that we are basically on the same side.
I'm not the one engaging in nitpicking contrarianism for no discernible reason.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:31 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
*checks who lives at the White House*

Still seems to be going pretty well.
Not just who is there, but the ensuing roll-out of concentration camps for brown undesirables.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:48 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Not just who is there, but the ensuing roll-out of concentration camps for brown undesirables.

Given the number of people, the number of CHILDREN, who have died in those camps of easily treatable diseases and disorders, malnutrition, exposure, and the overall denial of medical care and even sanitation, I think we can stop calling them concentration camps, and start to use their proper name. Because that is quite clearly the goal here. The level of inhumanity in the treatment of these FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS is nothing short of atrocity, as is the level of callousness displayed by so many when confronted with the facts on the ground, when they try to hide BS obfuscatory hypotheticals.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Given the number of people, the number of CHILDREN, who have died in those camps of easily treatable diseases and disorders, malnutrition, exposure, and the overall denial of medical care and even sanitation, I think we can stop calling them concentration camps, and start to use their proper name. Because that is quite clearly the goal here. The level of inhumanity in the treatment of these FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS is nothing short of atrocity, as is the level of callousness displayed by so many when confronted with the facts on the ground, when they try to hide BS obfuscatory hypotheticals.

Read this article and tell me how many of these children were neglected by the US and didn't receive medical attention. I'd say maybe two of these six cases could have been mishandled based on this article, but it isn't clear. The rest?



https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...524-story.html

Quote:
Days after 10-year-old Darlyn Cristabel Cordova-Valle crossed into the U.S. last year on her way from El Salvador to Nebraska, Border Patrol agents determined she had a debilitating heart condition.

...

Complications following a surgical procedure in San Antonio left the girl in a coma, Weber said. She was transported to a nursing facility in Phoenix for palliative care in May, then to a nursing facility in Omaha on Sept. 26, to be closer to her family, he said.

Quote:
Jakelin Caal Maquín died Dec. 8, soon after she was apprehended by Border Patrol with her father after they entered the U.S. illegally, aiming to seek asylum.

...

Jakelin was hospitalized about 12 hours after she and her father, Nery Gilberto Caal Cuz, 29, were caught, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection. They were stopped with more than 150 people Dec. 6 on a remote stretch of New Mexico’s border.

Quote:
Border Patrol agents caught Juan near El Paso on April 19 and took him to Casa Padre the next day. Shelter staff noticed he was sick on April 21 and he was hospitalized. Nine days later, he died after suffering complications from an infection in his brain’s frontal lobe, authorities said.

Quote:
He was taken into custody with his mother by Border Patrol agents April 3 near Paso del Norte international bridge. Three days later, the boy’s mother told agents her son was ill and he was transferred to Providence Children’s Hospital in El Paso, according to Border Patrol officials.

The boy remained hospitalized for about a month before he died.

Easily treatable disorders?

My point is that your concentration death camp analysis is extremely misleading. We are not rounding up people to be killed. Your use of all-caps is just hysterical screaming as far as I'm concerned, as is the rest of your post.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:26 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Read this article and tell me how many of these children were neglected by the US and didn't receive medical attention. I'd say maybe two of these six cases could have been mishandled based on this article, but it isn't clear. The rest?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...524-story.html

Easily treatable disorders?

My point is that your concentration death camp analysis is extremely misleading. We are not rounding up people to be killed. Your use of all-caps is just hysterical screaming as far as I'm concerned, as is the rest of your post.
Thanks for setting the record straight.

Six children dying due to neglect while in the care of our government would of course have been unacceptable.

But I think we can all live with only two children dying (well, except those children, obvs). They can probably even bump it up to three. Maybe four, but that would probably be too many... Yeah, I think three is a good place to cap it.

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Thanks for setting the record straight.

Six children dying due to neglect while in the care of our government would of course have been unacceptable.

But I think we can all live with only two children dying (well, except those children, obvs). They can probably even bump it up to three. Maybe four, but that would probably be too many... Yeah, I think three is a good place to cap it.

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!
So we have a consensus?

The childrens' "concentration camps" are not "death camps" until 4 or more children there are killed through neglect?

God bless America!
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So we have a consensus?

The childrens' "concentration camps" are not "death camps" until 4 or more children there are killed through neglect?

God bless America!

And, of course, dead adults don't count as all. Neither, apparently, does the large number of those children who are being sexually assaulted in those camps.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:31 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And, of course, dead adults don't count as all. Neither, apparently, does the large number of those children who are being sexually assaulted in those camps.
While I feel much compassion for those victims and their families you mention, we must not forget the serious issue of the long term psychological impact the traumatic experience of being separated from their parents for extended periods will have on these children. Most of them will take a long time to recover - some might never do so.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
On average, how many times a week do you find yourself sharing common goals with white nationalists? Or marching next to them in pursuit of those goals?
Worth noting: the Sons of Confederate Veteraans had been rallying to keep the statue up. When the nazi cosplayers show up, they skip their rallies. They want nothing to do with that crowd.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Worth noting: the Sons of Confederate Veteraans had been rallying to keep the statue up. When the nazi cosplayers show up, they skip their rallies. They want nothing to do with that crowd.
Not publicly. Sons of Confederate Veterans has a lot of cops in the group here (in Memphis.) I think it would just look too bad for them to associate with them in public.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So we have a consensus?

The childrens' "concentration camps" are not "death camps" until 4 or more children there are killed through neglect?

God bless America!
No. You're feigning concern in order to impress self-styled skeptics.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:25 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's a little precious that you still can't figure out that we are basically on the same side.
No, you're not. It doesn't matter which "side" you think you're on to these people. All they care about is stupid shaming tactics to try to manipulate your behavior and gain social status. I guarantee you they don't care which "side" they think you're on, if they see an opportunity to shame you, they'll take it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:31 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No, you're not. It doesn't matter which "side" you think you're on to these people. All they care about is stupid shaming tactics to try to manipulate your behavior and gain social status. I guarantee you they don't care which "side" they think you're on, if they see an opportunity to shame you, they'll take it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No. You're feigning concern in order to impress self-styled skeptics.
Are you of the opinion that it would take a full 6 dead from neglect in the concentration camp for it to qualify as a "death camp"?

If not, how may would it take?
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:12 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are you of the opinion that it would take a full 6 dead from neglect in the concentration camp for it to qualify as a "death camp"?

If not, how may would it take?
These are stupid questions that are not asked in good faith and I have no interest in your histrionics.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No. You're feigning concern in order to impress self-styled skeptics.

Skeptics aren't skeptics, concern isn't concern, and everybody is a poser except Baylor.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
These are stupid questions that are not asked in good faith and I have no interest in your histrionics.
It absolutely is a good faith question.
Luchog was being completely serious when they said:

Quote:
I think we can stop calling them concentration camps, and start to use their proper name.
How many deaths does it take, Baylor?
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:50 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
These are stupid questions that are not asked in good faith and I have no interest in your histrionics.
How does it go again? Oh yes, that's right....

"A simple, 'I am unable to provide a reasonable counter-argument,' would have been better than the mess quoted above."
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:53 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No. You're feigning concern in order to impress self-styled skeptics.
Or... now, hear me out because I know this sounds crazy... but maybe, just maybe there are people who are genuinely concerned about the children dying from neglect while in the custody of the government.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:07 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
While I feel much compassion for those victims and their families you mention, we must not forget the serious issue of the long term psychological impact the traumatic experience of being separated from their parents for extended periods will have on these children. Most of them will take a long time to recover - some might never do so.
That's a thing that really gets to me, having had a minor experience with that as a child myself. My parents were both immigrants to the US, and when I was around 7 or 8, my mom took me and my sister on a trip to Europe to visit extended family. When trying to re-enter the US, INS/Customs/whatever agency was in charge of it at the time refused to allow my mom entrance to the country. Because we lived in a bad neighborhood (being poor immigrants and all), our apartment had been involved in a raid in which my parents were detained and held at a police station; despite not being charged with anything, their names still ended up on some list (this was the first occasion, but they've been hassled every time they try to re-enter the US) that raised red flags. Because my sister and I were citizens (my mom only had a green card), the officials kept saying they couldn't refuse us entry, so my mom was taken somewhere for questioning while we were left in another room. For all we knew, we were stranded across the country from our dad and our mom was getting deported. At some point, they took her into the room we were in, and the officials kept trying to make my mom choose between separation (us going onto our connecting flight alone) or remaining together in holding until the situation was resolved. She chose the latter option and luckily we were able to barely make our next flight, so it ended fairly well, but the experience was pretty terrifying to me as a small child. At that age, being separated from my mom, told she wasn't going be allowed into country, and that I'd have to leave her (even for 2-3 hours that it probably took) had a big impact, and I can't even imagine what being separated for weeks would be like.

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Old 11th September 2019, 10:55 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Or... now, hear me out because I know this sounds crazy... but maybe, just maybe there are people who are genuinely concerned about the children dying from neglect while in the custody of the government....
... as has already happened


Darlyn Cristabel Cordova-Valle, 10
Jakelin Caal Maquín, 7
Felipe Gomez Alonzo, 8
Juan de León Gutiérrez, 16
Wilmer Josué Ramírez Vásquez, 2
Carlos Hernandez Vásquez, 16
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:01 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
While I feel much compassion for those victims and their families you mention, we must not forget the serious issue of the long term psychological impact the traumatic experience of being separated from their parents for extended periods will have on these children.
A case in point

Another
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And that was AFTER he was well looked after by people in Grand Rapids MI - those incarcerated kids in cages don't have that.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Its not hard to understand the little boy's reaction - she (his mother) might as well be a total stranger - in his mind, she is. A child of that age has not yet developed their long term memory. They need constant reinforcement of the mother-child bond. Without it, the sense of abandonment would be horrendous.

There are literally going to be thousands of tragic cases like this. Many of them will be a lot worse. These children are going to have ongoing psychological problems well into adulthood, not just from their separation from their parents, but also from the sub-human conditions under which they are being caged.
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