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Tags North Carolina incidents , North Carolina politics , republicans

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Old 11th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #1
pgwenthold
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Remembering 9/11...Republican style

In memory of the tragedy of 9/11, people all over the country are going to memorials and whatnot.

That's what democratic legislators in North Carolina did.

And while they were gone, republican leadership called a surprise vote to override the governor's veto of a budget bill. With all the opposition out, they were able to override the veto.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/po...234962017.html

Come on, someone try to defend it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:24 PM   #2
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I think this vote would have happened anyway. NC requires 3/5 of the elected legislators to override a veto. You can't get those numbers by sending away opponents, only by attracting supporters.

So at least 3/5 of NC legislators showed up to work today and passed a bill. They would have been able to pull this off even if other 2/5 had shown up and voted against them.

Or am I missing something? Did the Republicans totally promise to go to the memorial service, and then once the Democrats were safely out of the way...? No, they already had a veto proof majority.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think this vote would have happened anyway. NC requires 3/5 of the elected legislators to override a veto. You can't get those numbers by sending away opponents, only by attracting supporters.

So at least 3/5 of NC legislators showed up to work today and passed a bill. They would have been able to pull this off even if other 2/5 had shown up and voted against them.

Or am I missing something? Did the Republicans totally promise to go to the memorial service, and then once the Democrats were safely out of the way...? No, they already had a veto proof majority.
Out of 120 reps total, the vote was 55-9.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:39 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Out of 120 reps total, the vote was 55-9.
And the NC House is 65 Republicans to 55 Democrats. The GOP did NOT have a 3/5ths majority.

The Republicans also said that there would be no votes that morning so that people could go to the memorials. They told the press that as well. Then they showed up to subvert democracy because that's just who the Republicans are. The Democrats should never believe them and treat them as always hostile cheaters who will always act in bad faith. This is the only rational conclusion when they leverage 9/11 memorials to cheat.

And GOP voters will absolutely not hold them accountable, so they will remain deplorable for the foreseeable future.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Rep. Jason Saine (R-Lincolnton) called the motion for the vote. He made the motion for the vote and made no bones about the fact that it was called during a state memorial ceremony remembering the sacrifices made during the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

"As a former firefighter and an American, I am appalled that anyone in our country would stop going about their normal business on this day. When we stop being a beacon of freedom, hope and democracy, then the terrorists win," Saine said in a statement.
People are still using the 'if we don't do X, the terrorists win' rhetoric? Also from a quick reading it appears this has been going back and forth for a few months, so taking the position this was simply an inevitability with bad timing doesn't pass the smell test for me.


Edit to add: It appears they only need 1 Democrat vote to flip in the Senate. They must have that thing locked down to pull this, as the optics for the voter that flips will not be good given how this transpired.

Last edited by rdwight; 11th September 2019 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:50 PM   #6
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Out of 120 reps total, the vote was 55-9.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And the NC House is 65 Republicans to 55 Democrats. The GOP did NOT have a 3/5ths majority.
Then all this talk about the veto doesn't make sense. They would have needed at least 90 votes to override. Something is being misreported here.

Also, is 64 present even enough to do business? NC seems pretty generous about its quorum requirements.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:53 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then all this talk about the veto doesn't make sense. They would have needed at least 90 votes to override. Something is being misreported here.

Also, is 64 present even enough to do business? NC seems pretty generous about its quorum requirements.
Its not a 3/5 vote of all reps, its a 3/5 vote of the reps present and voting. And they had over half of the reps present, so they had a quorum.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And the NC House is 65 Republicans to 55 Democrats. The GOP did NOT have a 3/5ths majority.

The Republicans also said that there would be no votes that morning so that people could go to the memorials. They told the press that as well. Then they showed up to subvert democracy because that's just who the Republicans are. The Democrats should never believe them and treat them as always hostile cheaters who will always act in bad faith. This is the only rational conclusion when they leverage 9/11 memorials to cheat.

And GOP voters will absolutely not hold them accountable, so they will remain deplorable for the foreseeable future.
Every ******* one of them should be removed from office and whatever retirement benefits/pensions they've earned in their seat should be stripped immediately.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:55 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then all this talk about the veto doesn't make sense. They would have needed at least 90 votes to override. Something is being misreported here.
What is the confusion? They need 60% of the vote to override the veto. If everyone is there, that means 72. But it is based on how many are voting.


Quote:
Also, is 64 present even enough to do business? NC seems pretty generous about its quorum requirements.
More than 1/2 the members present is not uncommon to declare a quorum.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:53 PM   #10
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Someone tries to defend the indefensible, and fails.
It is sad when blind partisanship makes somebody say idiotic things.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:02 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Someone tries to defend the indefensible, and fails.
It is sad when blind partisanship makes somebody say idiotic things.
For the record I don't think what theprestige said was idiotic, simply wrong. But wrong in an understandable way for a reaction of denial when faced with something as unbelievably craven as this.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Its not a 3/5 vote of all reps, its a 3/5 vote of the reps present and voting. And they had over half of the reps present, so they had a quorum.
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What is the confusion? They need 60% of the vote to override the veto. If everyone is there, that means 72. But it is based on how many are voting.




More than 1/2 the members present is not uncommon to declare a quorum.
Interesting. Wikipedia says 3/5 of elected, but the actual constitution says 3/5 of present and voting.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
For the record I don't think what theprestige said was idiotic, simply wrong. But wrong in an understandable way for a reaction of denial when faced with something as unbelievably craven as this.
Oh, it's believably craven.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:16 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In memory of the tragedy of 9/11, people all over the country are going to memorials and whatnot.

That's what democratic legislators in North Carolina did.

And while they were gone, republican leadership called a surprise vote to override the governor's veto of a budget bill. With all the opposition out, they were able to override the veto.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/po...234962017.html

Come on, someone try to defend it.
There is nothing that needs defending because there is no ethical component involved?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is nothing that needs defending because there is no ethical component involved?
If deception was involved as is accused by the article and the Democrats, than it would indeed involve an ethical component. I assume you could argue the ethics of deception but that would merit there being an ethical component I would guess.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
If deception was involved as is accused by the article and the Democrats, than it would indeed involve an ethical component. I assume you could argue the ethics of deception but that would merit there being an ethical component I would guess.
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh, it's believably craven.
Not really. It's just believably lazy. The information is in the article linked in the OP. You could've had that egg for breakfast tomorrow morning rather than wearing it.

It's subterfuge by the NC GOP. The #2 guy told a Dem who passed it along that there would be no votes in the morning session. In the presser, the Red Leader and the #2(Lewis) said the Dems just misunderstood. Alas, Lewis emailed a reporter on Tuesday night that there was likely to be no voting. He simply neglected to tell anyone else, so we have a Big Dog Special... "Show Me Where I Promised There Would Not Be A Vote. I din't say "I promise" so neener neener neener, Gotcha!"

Further, not stated in the article but pretty damned obvious is that it was planned. Are we supposed to believe that no patriotic blue blooded flag-waving Republicans in North Carolina had any memorial events to attend. Almost all of them were at the State House. It was an old fashioned ambush.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.


You are equating a game with cheating the electorate?
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You are equating a game with cheating the electorate?
Because deception is not cheating.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.
Keep in mind that the republican deception involved a 9/11 memorial service. Something that most people would be respectful of.

Its like if your football team involved urinating on an American flag as part of its fake handoff play as part of the deception.

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Old 11th September 2019, 10:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that the republican deception involved a 9/11 memorial service. Something that most people would be respectful of.

Its like if your football team involved urinating on an American flag as part of its fake handoff play as part of the deception.

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Further, equating such treachery to a legitimate play in a sporting contest is sorta beyond the pale. It's not a game of Hearts, it's the governance of a state.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Further, equating such treachery to a legitimate play in a sporting contest is sorta beyond the pale. It's not a game of Hearts, it's the governance of a state.
Dan Bishop won the special election, they're just getting started on a Republican voter mandate which seems to be an approval of the job the GOP has been trying to get done in NC.

Democratic obstruction does not get things done. Bravo NC!

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Old 11th September 2019, 11:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Dan Bishop won the special election, they're just getting started on a Republican voter mandate which seems to be an approval of the job the GOP has been trying to get done in NC.

Democratic obstruction does not get things done. Bravo NC!

Chris B.
Bishop barely took the district. The GOP margin is down about 10% compared to 2016. But there's an actual thread for that. THIS thread is about GOP dirty tricks at the state level.

Are you a zero-sum Trumper? Anything as long as you get your way? It was a smarmy trick by smarmy people. This is the same state party that has had its redistricting plans thrown out of the courts at least twice, now and the same group that, upon losing the state house to a Dem governor immediately proceeded, Wisconsin style, to limit the authorities they had just granted (in the previous session) to the governor.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:13 AM   #24
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Republicans can't win on the merits of their ideas and policies, so they have to cheat.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:43 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Further, equating such treachery to a legitimate play in a sporting contest is sorta beyond the pale. It's not a game of Hearts, it's the governance of a state.
That is asserting a difference without saying what the difference actually is. Both have a set of rules and procedures. You are generally permitted to pursue a strategy that doesn't violate the rules.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:04 AM   #26
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Right wingers tend to have the mindset that if it's not illegal, then it's fair to do. And by illegal, they really mean if they can get away with it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:10 AM   #27
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right wingers tend to have the mindset that if it's not illegal, then it's fair to do. And by illegal, they really mean if they can get away with it.
So do the Patriots.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Dan Bishop won the special election, they're just getting started on a Republican voter mandate which seems to be an approval of the job the GOP has been trying to get done in NC.

Democratic obstruction does not get things done. Bravo NC!

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Old 12th September 2019, 06:42 AM   #29
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's a story as old as time: Losers hate winners. Never forget.
Another story as old as democracy is that reactionaries prefer fascism.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
<snip>
I have no opinion about that.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #32
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It definitely rates high on my list of "**** douchebags would do".
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:18 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.
A better analogy is to have the Referee to tell one team that it's half time, wait for them to depart the field, and then run in a touchdown.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #34
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The Hill plays it out differently:

Quote:
The veto override occurred with nearly half of the House's members absent. Many were attending committee meetings during the 55-9 Wednesday morning vote called by the Republican Speaker, and at least one was at a 9/11 anniversary ceremony.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Dan Bishop won the special election, they're just getting started on a Republican voter mandate which seems to be an approval of the job the GOP has been trying to get done in NC.
Correction... Bishop won one congressional district (representing only a tiny fraction of the population of the state), and at a different level of government (federal, not state).

That's hardly a 'voter mandate' or an indication of any sort of widespread approval of the actions of republicans in the state.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:56 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Quote:
Further, equating such treachery to a legitimate play in a sporting contest is sorta beyond the pale. It's not a game of Hearts, it's the governance of a state.
That is asserting a difference without saying what the difference actually is.
There are 2 main differences where your football analogy fails...

- Sports are, by design, completely competitive. On the other hand, Politics often involves compromise, bipartisanship, and trust. (If both sides become intractable, and trust breaks down, gridlock can ensue which harms EVERYONE.) So, the republicans won this little battle. Good luck getting the democrats to trust in the future. They've made it harder for the government as a whole to function.

- A football team is basically playing for the benefit of fans of the team. What the fans of the opposing team think is irrelevant. But when you are a politician, you represent all citizens in your area, not just the ones that voted for you. (After all, they still pay their taxes, contribute to society, etc.) At least some of the people in those districts that the state senators represent voted for the democrats. While I'm not saying that a politician has to totally abandon their policies in favor of what the opposition wants, they should be at least willing to recognize their concerns.

By the way, I notice you ignored the post where I pointed out that part of the problem was that all of this took place on 9/11.

To most people, 9/11 was a horrific event... thousands of people died, hundreds more risked their lives in an attempt to prevent further deaths. Hundreds of people now have serious health concerns as a result of their actions stemming from 9/11. To those people who suffered as a result of 9/11, the day should be treated with some respect. On the other hand, the republicans decided to use the event as a prop in order to cheat the system.

They are basically crapping on 9/11 victims. And you are ok with that.

And that's the GOP for you.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:58 AM   #37
Belz...
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In memory of the tragedy of 9/11, people all over the country are going to memorials and whatnot.

That's what democratic legislators in North Carolina did.

And while they were gone, republican leadership called a surprise vote to override the governor's veto of a budget bill. With all the opposition out, they were able to override the veto.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/po...234962017.html

Come on, someone try to defend it.
How is that legal?
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:00 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How is that legal?
The problem is, how is it not?
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:05 AM   #39
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Of course had the Democratic lawmakers not gone to the 9/11 memorial, for fear of leaving the Republicans free do do their deeds, then they would have been castigated for being un-American communists and Islamic terrorist enablers and failing to respect the victims of terrorism.

Of course GOPers who are actually failing to respect the victims of terrorism are given a pass for *reasons*
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:11 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The problem is, how is it not?
How the hell are 'surprise votes' legal? There's no provision for scheduling? Were the Dems notified?
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