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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 21st February 2018, 10:29 AM   #2281
Lurch
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s already been documented that Obama didn’t go public because he was pressured not to by Republican leadership in Congress. You can certainly make a case that he should have taken a harder line against politically motivated negligence on the part of Republicans in this and many other issues throughout his presidency but I suspect you would have complained vociferously about this course of action as well.
Imagine the uproar and the stink from the GOP if Obama had come out with talk of Russian help to boost Trump. That alone would put the brakes on any first instinct to warn Americans. And of course the honorable desire to not be seen to engage in meddling of his own must factor in. Talk about being in a quandary. And then there's McConnell; his pushing back on any action to counter this is to me *suggestive* of some nefarious motive rooted in collusion. I await the revelations of the depths to which the rot goes.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:40 AM   #2282
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If I remember right, Obama DID take action against the Russians AFTER the election. Expelled a bunch of Russians and imposed sanctions, for example.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:52 AM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Has been detained, questioned and released, he told the Moscow Times. The guy has a long story of attention-seeking BS going back to at least 2010 under at least two names.
Was one of them “John Barron”?
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:53 AM   #2284
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Obama could only have come forward with the Russian interference if the GOP was supporting him.
Otherwise, Trump supporters would have taken to the streets with guns claiming that Obama was trying to favor Clinton.
Holding back the information helped Trump, as Mitch McConnell knew well.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:43 PM   #2285
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Originally Posted by DetectedMotion View Post
Remember when the Donald called Russian meddling a "hoax" not so long ago?
Remember when he started receiving security briefings in August 2016, which surely included the Russian meddling information we're only just now finding out about?
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:01 PM   #2286
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Remember when he started receiving security briefings in August 2016, which surely included the Russian meddling information we're only just now finding out about?
Remember how he would call certain information "Fake News" if it's not reported on Fox & Friends?
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:07 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I believe as early as the summer, Comey said he was willing to go public with Russian meddling, but the Obama White House consistently warned them to stay out of it for fear of interfering in the election (i.e., undermining Clinton's victory/coronation). And I disagree with SG regarding the relevance of Comey's announcement vis-a-vis this thread. This thread is (in part) about the relative effects of Russia's propaganda efforts. Nate Silver, for example, believes Putin played a significant role, but not as significant as the re-opening of the e-mail investigation (as based on polling data).
I just didn't want to get into a derail about why Clinton lost.

The idea Russian interference didn't impact the election is ludicrous Trumpeting. People are afraid or simply disinclined to say it out loud, Russians helped elect Trump.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:41 PM   #2288
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s already been documented that Obama didn’t go public because he was pressured not to by Republican leadership in Congress.
So that's the sole reason? There were no other factors?

Quote:
...I suspect you would have complained vociferously about this course of action as well.
I don't know where to begin. This implies that I'm "vociferously complaining" Obama didn't take action. I'm not. Would I have "vociferously" complained that Obama HAD warned against Russian interference when there was, in fact, Russian interference? Probably not. As mentioned above, he was in a tight space, and I think he played it as best he could given known knowns.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:44 PM   #2289
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I just didn't want to get into a derail about why Clinton lost.

The idea Russian interference didn't impact the election is ludicrous Trumpeting. People are afraid or simply disinclined to say it out loud, Russians helped elect Trump.
A distinction needs to be made between Russia's many different tactics. Democrats seem to be obsessing over Facebook ads and a Twitter bot-army. That propaganda was often crude and amateurish. It's also sickening to hear liberals claim our "sacred democracy" was attacked by a foreign power. 1) Our "democracy" is such that the candidate with fewer votes won, so it's not much of a democracy; 2) We do the same **** all the time. I blame American stupidity more than Russian propaganda in this regard.

Now, the Russian hacks into the DNC and (esp) Podesta's e-mail were quite significant, and weaponized by our own media. Propaganda/misinformation is the norm in political campaigns, but candidates are not allowed to steal from their opponents.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:01 PM   #2290
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Apparently many right-wing users of Twitter are complaining after the company went through a "purge", deleting hundreds/thousands of accounts that were likely associated with bots, and in other cases requesting users provide a phone number to verify that they were a real live human.

From: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...out/359291002/
Conservative Twitter users raged against the social media company, lobbing accusations of left-wing bias and censorship after losing thousands of followers in an overnight bot purge. The suspension of multiple accounts followed the indictment by special counsel Robert S. Mueller of Russian nationals for meddling in the U.S. election, including using fake accounts on Twitter to conduct "information warfare" against the United States.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:03 PM   #2291
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A distinction needs to be made between Russia's many different tactics. Democrats seem to be obsessing over Facebook ads and a Twitter bot-army. That propaganda was often crude and amateurish. It's also sickening to hear liberals claim our "sacred democracy" was attacked by a foreign power. 1) Our "democracy" is such that the candidate with fewer votes won, so it's not much of a democracy; 2) We do the same **** all the time. I blame American stupidity more than Russian propaganda in this regard.

Now, the Russian hacks into the DNC and (esp) Podesta's e-mail were quite significant, and weaponized by our own media. Propaganda/misinformation is the norm in political campaigns, but candidates are not allowed to steal from their opponents.
Ah! We do it all the time, so it's all good.

Nice to know where you stand, comrade.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:22 PM   #2292
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A distinction needs to be made between Russia's many different tactics. Democrats seem to be obsessing over Facebook ads and a Twitter bot-army. That propaganda was often crude and amateurish. It's also sickening to hear liberals claim our "sacred democracy" was attacked by a foreign power. 1) Our "democracy" is such that the candidate with fewer votes won, so it's not much of a democracy; 2) We do the same **** all the time. I blame American stupidity more than Russian propaganda in this regard.

Now, the Russian hacks into the DNC and (esp) Podesta's e-mail were quite significant, and weaponized by our own media. Propaganda/misinformation is the norm in political campaigns, but candidates are not allowed to steal from their opponents.
My emphasis on the highlighted part. The media also sold us Trump with their 24/7 Trump TV show.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:36 PM   #2293
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
He’ll be claiming he never said that pretty soon....
Oh, he already has.
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:02 PM   #2294
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A distinction needs to be made between Russia's many different tactics. Democrats seem to be obsessing over Facebook ads and a Twitter bot-army. That propaganda was often crude and amateurish. It's also sickening to hear liberals claim our "sacred democracy" was attacked by a foreign power. 1) Our "democracy" is such that the candidate with fewer votes won, so it's not much of a democracy; 2) We do the same **** all the time. I blame American stupidity more than Russian propaganda in this regard.

Now, the Russian hacks into the DNC and (esp) Podesta's e-mail were quite significant, and weaponized by our own media. Propaganda/misinformation is the norm in political campaigns, but candidates are not allowed to steal from their opponents.
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Ah! We do it all the time, so it's all good.

Nice to know where you stand, comrade.
I interpret that portion of Cain's comments differently with the key bit being the bit I have highlighted.
Reprehensible or neutral or forgivable, Russia's actions would not have mattered had our electorate not so easily fallen for it. That, I think, is closer to what he is saying.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:51 PM   #2295
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Originally Posted by DetectedMotion View Post
Remember when the Donald called Russian meddling a "hoax" not so long ago?
Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
He’ll be claiming he never said that pretty soon....
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Oh, he already has.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:02 PM   #2296
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My emphasis on the highlighted part. The media also sold us Trump with their 24/7 Trump TV show.
I quite suspect that you are more referring to Trump being in the spotlight so much on mainstream media channels like CNN than the rest, but as much as the general effects of uneven exposure shouldn't be underestimated, there are other important things that also shouldn't be forgotten. For example, there's the channel that I saw call it "Breaking News" earlier when they claimed that the media was ignoring Trump's achievements for the nth time, among various other similar repeats of oft-repeated "Breaking News" headlines over the next couple minutes. The same channel that called it "Breaking News" when they showed a somewhat misleading clip of Obama calling for there to be some sharing of the wealth decades before then... for the nth time over the years. The one that keeps dismissing the desire to address Russia's meddling as little more than a Democratic hit job. That would likely be the most important part of the media with regards to your complaint.

Also of note, I do see frequent articles that are obvious and rather shallow hit pieces on CNN and NBC News' websites. To poke at a couple of them, Democrats win elections with dark money even though many of them loudly proclaim that they want to change the rules so that dark money is no longer a thing! Democrats didn't do anything about gun control when they had total control of Congress at the beginning of Obama's term so Democrats bear just as much blame as Republicans when it comes to lack of gun control!
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Old 22nd February 2018, 08:12 AM   #2297
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Wasn’t Mueller tasked to follow leads wherever they might lead?

It’s not inconceivable that Obama’s actions or lack thereof could come under his purview. Not inconceivable, but highly unlikely unless there was alleged impropriety.
Nor is it inconceivable that Trump is card-carrying member of the kkk. In other words, how about we stay grounded in reality here?
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Old 22nd February 2018, 08:36 AM   #2298
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Nor is it inconceivable that Trump is card-carrying member of the kkk. In other words, how about we stay grounded in reality here?
His dad was, so it's not exactly outside reality to suggest he might be.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 12:11 PM   #2299
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
b stays on the topic of "Russian Bots" and the hysterical reporting that is now firmly in the realms of collective psychosis. Don't miss Bellingcat (aka Brown Noses) debunking Hamilton 68...
A debunking that consists only of pointing out that the debunkers are against the agenda of Russian propagandists being debunked.

That's very Orwellian.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 01:54 PM   #2300
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
A debunking that consists only of pointing out that the debunkers are against the agenda of Russian propagandists being debunked.

That's very Orwellian.

What are you blabbering about? This is the relevant link.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 07:48 PM   #2301
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Ah! We do it all the time, so it's all good.

Nice to know where you stand, comrade.
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I thought both of Cain’s arguments were particularly insipid.

The latter, you pointed out.
What Cain points out is essentially the Golden Rule. We should not do to others what we don't like being done to us.

There is nothing insipid about that. It's actually quite profound.

If her were to defend Russian interference, claiming it wasn't a bad thing because we're also guilty of interference, that would be a tu quoque fallacy, but he didn't do that he only spoke to his own feelings. Which he is entitled.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 AM   #2302
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This is not new, but it's new to me: Trump has admitted, on the record, that he did indeed speak to Putin while in Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant in 2013. I've seen people dismiss this as a conspiracy theory before now, so it seems relevant that Trump has actually said it's true.
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Old Yesterday, 06:13 AM   #2303
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is not new, but it's new to me: Trump has admitted, on the record, that he did indeed speak to Putin while in Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant in 2013. I've seen people dismiss this as a conspiracy theory before now, so it seems relevant that Trump has actually said it's true.
All Things Trump + Russia, thread 1, post 1.
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Note to self: See if any of the Russian created hashtags were posted on the forum.

It's bleakly amusing to see them refer to "Killary".
First off, I'm not sure if these hashtags were the original creations of the Russian trolls, or if they just piggy-backed. Either way, a search I just did on the first one -- #HillaryForPrison -- and waddya know. Not only referenced, but referenced as a fact source right here on ISF.
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 AM   #2305
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As I mentioned in another thread, the latest “Trump, Inc.” podcast involves Fusion GPS, the Steele dossier and signs pointing to Trump’s apparent involvement in Russian (and other) money laundering schemes.

Makes one wonder if Mueller is “following the money”. If so, things could get VERY interesting!
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Old Yesterday, 07:01 AM   #2306
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Makes one wonder if Mueller is “following the money”. If so, things could get VERY interesting!
He does seem to be with the money laundering charges against Manafort(?).
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Old Yesterday, 08:23 AM   #2307
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is not new, but it's new to me: Trump has admitted, on the record, that he did indeed speak to Putin while in Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant in 2013. I've seen people dismiss this as a conspiracy theory before now, so it seems relevant that Trump has actually said it's true.
Trump also claimed to have met Putin backstage during "60 Minutes," and it turned out that the two segments with Trump and Putin were filmed at different times in different countries. Nothing Trump says can be believed without corroboration.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-had-relati/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...02d5d5ed3d2fc\

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Old Yesterday, 10:57 AM   #2308
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
All Things Trump + Russia, thread 1, post 1.
Ah, before I started paying attention, then. Thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 10:59 AM   #2309
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump also claimed to have met Putin backstage during "60 Minutes," and it turned out that the two segments with Trump and Putin were filmed at different times in different countries. Nothing Trump says can be believed without corroboration.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-had-relati/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...02d5d5ed3d2fc\
Well, Trump's friend Tom Arnold, who was there, says that Trump had a conference call with Putin in which Putin encouraged him to run for president. So that's some corroboration.
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Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM   #2310
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Robert Gates has plead guilty and will cooperate with the investigation...which is a polite term for he is going to turn rat.
Drip,drip,drip,,,,,,
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 PM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is not new, but it's new to me: Trump has admitted, on the record, that he did indeed speak to Putin while in Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant in 2013. I've seen people dismiss this as a conspiracy theory before now, so it seems relevant that Trump has actually said it's true.
He has said he knows Putin and he has said he doesn't. He was caught lying about meeting Putin in a green room. If words out of Trump's mouth are the evidence, it ain't worth much. I don't see pictures in that article.

But this is interesting:
Quote:
Some members of the US media have dismissed attempts to examine Trump’s ties with Russia as “McCarthyism.
That has to be Fox News or totally made up.

From Rove's Playbook: Whatever they accuse you of, accuse them of the same.
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Old Today, 05:44 AM   #2312
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Mod WarningFolk long detailed discussion about the merits of the Electoral College and USA democracy status are not the topic of this thread. I've moved a rather long derail to its own thread: Split Thread: Electoral College and USA democratic status discussion

Please keep to the topic of this thread.
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Old Today, 02:39 PM   #2313
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Can't recall, do we have a Nunes memo thread? Well the Democratic rebuttal memo is out. It says what we expected. Apparently the WH released it on the weekend. Ah, and it is the day after more indictments on Manafort were added.

Yesterday at CPAC (or this morning?) Nunes announced how the Democratic memo proves his memo correct.

There is no evidence at all that Nunes lives in reality.
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Old Today, 02:41 PM   #2314
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The Democratic memo
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Old Today, 03:23 PM   #2315
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

First look should be at the footnotes which include Donald Trump. Will be fun to see if some of the blacked-out (thanks to Trump gov fears of sources and methods revelations) parts get leaked. Finally Schiff -> labour camp.
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Old Today, 03:27 PM   #2316
Aber
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Has anybody started filling in the redactions yet?
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Old Today, 03:47 PM   #2317
Aber
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
First look should be at the footnotes which include Donald Trump. Will be fun to see if some of the blacked-out (thanks to Trump gov fears of sources and methods revelations) parts get leaked. Finally Schiff -> labour camp.
There are 2 obvious categories of redactions:
- others in the Trump campaign who are under investigation
- things which says Steele is a credible source

Plus I think evidence of Page's and Papadopoulos' links to the Trump campaign.

Last edited by Aber; Today at 03:49 PM.
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Old Today, 04:53 PM   #2318
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his alibi is literally whatever Fox News writes on the screen right now, he’s pure Ron Burgundy

if you broke into the Fox News chyron room you could run the entire country
Yay for executive time.
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Old Today, 04:59 PM   #2319
Captain_Swoop
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Trump says

"The Democrat memo response on government surveillance abuses is a total political and legal BUST. Just confirms all of the terrible things that were done. SO ILLEGAL!"

It's ten pages long, that's like War and Piece to him. no way he read it.
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