IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bullying , koskela , murder

Reply
Old 23rd February 2021, 05:17 AM   #41
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,050
It could be manipulated. For example in the hypothetical school I run, our anti-bullying technique is if someone reports bullying, they get slapped and told to go back to class, wimp.

Reports of bullying are at an all time low!
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 05:23 AM   #42
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,953
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Do we have any experts who are actually capable of lowering rates of bullying?
Historically school age bullying was like most abuse children suffered not really something to be acknowledged never mind dealt with a systematic manner.

It is only since the 1980s that society has started to acknowledge and attempted to reduce the harm caused by bullying. Indeed I would argue that historically complaining about bullying was seen as a failure of character of the victim, and sadly we still see remnants of that attitude today.

I would assume that there are statistics kept so we can see what effect different strategies have achieved or not. Obviously one of the issues may be that we simply don't have an accurate picture of the level of bullying that does go on.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 05:26 AM   #43
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,261
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Historically school age bullying was like most abuse children suffered not really something to be acknowledged never mind dealt with a systematic manner.

It is only since the 1980s that society has started to acknowledge and attempted to reduce the harm caused by bullying. Indeed I would argue that historically complaining about bullying was seen as a failure of character of the victim, and sadly we still see remnants of that attitude today.

I would assume that there are statistics kept so we can see what effect different strategies have achieved or not. Obviously one of the issues may be that we simply don't have an accurate picture of the level of bullying that does go on.
Yeah, I think all of that is accurate, particularly the last sentence.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 06:34 AM   #44
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,953
This seems a good starting point: https://www.ditchthelabel.org/research-papers/

Organisation setup to help reduce bullying for under 25s. Looks like they've been doing regular surveys/research. Their 2020 report: https://www.ditchthelabel.org/resear...g-survey-2020/

The report covers: "THIS REPORT DRAWS ON THE EXPERIENCES OF 13,387 PEOPLE AGED 12-18."

That is secondary education in the UK.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 23rd February 2021 at 06:36 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 06:47 AM   #45
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,261
Cool, thanks Darat!

It looks like they've only been doing this survey for 8 years so far, so hard to say much about long term trends, but there could be enough to see something there.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 10:29 AM   #46
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This seems a good starting point: https://www.ditchthelabel.org/research-papers/

Organisation setup to help reduce bullying for under 25s. Looks like they've been doing regular surveys/research. Their 2020 report: https://www.ditchthelabel.org/resear...g-survey-2020/

The report covers: "THIS REPORT DRAWS ON THE EXPERIENCES OF 13,387 PEOPLE AGED 12-18."

That is secondary education in the UK.
Incredible. How to deal with this:

Quote:
This report highlights that bullying as a whole has increased by 25% year-on-year. It could be argued that political fall-out is a significant contributor, with 1-in-3 of the young people surveyed saying that they believe the behaviour of politicians influences how people treat each other at school.

When asked about loneliness, a quarter of the young people we surveyed told us that they feel lonely all of the time. A sad irony in a society that is apparently “more connected than ever before”.

Is social media really making us happier? Our previous research uncovered that social media was a leading contributor towards low self-esteem and poor body image in young people, this report continues to identify that the half of those bullied felt they were targeted because of attitudes towards their physical appearance. 14% of respondents never like themselves, with a further 24% saying that they do but only rarely.

When asked broadly about their mental health, 42% told us that they have battled with anxiety, 25% with depression and 21% with suicidal thoughts. School pressures, exams, body image, feelings of loneliness and bereavement were referenced as the leading contributors to poor mental health.
You would never guess from the 'happy' images associated with adolescents.

There is a school bully project in Finland called 'Kiva Koulu' (kiva: lovely, nice): = 'Nice Schools', about creating an atmosphere of emotional intelligence. They are now discussing a name change as they believe it promotes a false image of school experience for many schoolkids.

From wiki [Google translate]

Quote:
KiVa School is a program of measures aimed at reducing and preventing school bullying . The program was launched in Finland in autumn 2007, initially in 39 schools (approximately 4,000 students). [1] The project expanded nationwide in the academic year 2009-2010. About 90 per cent of Finnish basic education schools registered as users of the program , [2] but when the program introduced license fees in 2016, slightly less than half of Finnish primary schools participated in 2019. [3]

Preventive measures play an important role in KiVa School. KiVa lessons cover group activities and group pressure, emotions and their regulation, as well as the identification of bullying and the active defense of those who have been bullied. In addition to prevention, the program provides tools for investigating cases of bullying. Fact-finding discussions focus on the discussion with the bully and the bully separately, as well as the organization of follow-up talks to ensure that the bully has actually stopped [4] . The program aims to provide concrete tools to address the issue of bullying in lessons and to address emerging cases of bullying. [2]

The program has been developed at the University of Turku with funding from the Ministry of Education and the current Business Finland under the leadership of Christina Salmivall , Professor of Psychology, and Elisa Poskiparra, a specialist. [3]
Yet we still have something that could come out of Lord of the Flies in Helsinki.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2021, 10:54 AM   #47
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
What has shocked people is the fact that the victim was known to have been a target for bullies since kindergarten, often accosted in the school corridors and his school cap thrown about. The KiVa Koulu model, which is also similar to the one in the UK and elsewhere, is a type of counselling, where an investigation is carried out, the bully apologises for his or her behaviour and everybody is happy. However, it doesn't appear to solve much and now it is being suggested that any violence, assault or robbery of school bags, sports gear, vandalism, defacing the victim's property, should automatically be reported to the police instead, for the older age groups.

Quote:
It was not known at SCHOOL that the victim had begun to move with a group of friends, including three boys now suspected of murder. The two suspects had attended the same primary school with the victim, but at school they had not moved together.

- If we had known who the victim was dealing with, we would have intervened. We knew two of the factors. They were very different with the victim, the interviewee says.

According to the school staff member, the victim's close relatives would also have intervened in this “friendship” if they had known about it.

According to police, the role of the victim in the group of friends was to be the target of bullying. The bullying turned violent. Eventually, it got the hallmarks of sadistic violence.

- The victim has been considered a “guy” but at the same time bullied in different ways. When I use the term bullying, I mean repeated and systematic activity that can have serious physical and mental consequences for the victim, Investigation Director Marko Forss stated earlier in a police release.

According to the school staff interviewed, the victim's self-esteem was very low for many reasons. It could have contributed to a situation in which he has succumbed to horrific bullying.

- The victim obeyed his bullies to the last. How does this feel? Shocking.
Ilta-Sanomat [google translate]
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; 23rd February 2021 at 10:56 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2021, 02:51 AM   #48
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you seem awfully disappointed that it turned out the perpetrators were white.
Apropos of this, here's the type of stuff the far right put out:

Quote:
Koskelan tapauksessa murhasta epäillyt ovat joidenkin asiantuntijoiden mukaan somalitaustaisia, käräjäoikeuden juttulistassa olleiden nimien perusteella. Mitenkähän uhri, oliko hänkin?

[google translate]: In the case of Koskela, the suspects in the murder are, according to some experts, of Somali background, based on the names on the district court's list of cases. Anyway, the victim, was he too?
https://twitter.com/truthcommissio/s...391327235?s=20

It seems Somalis are the scapegoat for the racists, including Kookemus candidate (conservatives) Miia Autero, of Espoo, who had a rant about how she didn't mind her daughter mixing with children of Estonian or Russian background but the Somalis were disruptive etc., etc [insert your own racist stereotype] so her daughter took her dad to school in order that the Somali children could see that he was big and strong and that they were not to mess with her.

Pathetic, isn't it?
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2021, 11:32 AM   #49
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
In Cold Blood

Pretrial material released on Monday in Helsinki to the press is designed to consider whether the killing of the 15-year-old victim by two 16-year-olds and one 15-16 year-old (the date of the killing was 4 Dec 2020, his birthday) was premeditated. The prosecution are arguing, it was a cold-blooded premeditated murder citing:
  • text messages between the three planning the crime in advance
  • the plan was to invite the victim to the youngest suspect's 16th birthday party under the guise of friendly celebration
  • they planned to buy some Captain Morgan Whisky and cans of beer
  • they planned to get the young victim drunk and then beat him to death (although they didn't use those words)
  • After chatting together in a friendly way, the assault began, with Birthday Boy kicking the victim, A, in the legs
  • the other two joined in raining punches to his face and body
  • when he fell to the ground the bullies forced his mouth open and poured whisky in it, to the victim's protests
  • one of the bullies had to leave the scene for a while; the other two sent him Snap Chat pictures of them beating him
  • Whilst the victim was on the ground, the oldest boy kicked him in the head
  • They dragged him to his feet and led him to the park by the hospital where he was found
  • they then continued the assault by hitting him with a metal bar over the head and ribs
  • the boy who had left, received the messages and returned, immediately twice hitting the victim in the face with his fists
  • the oldest boy stood on the nearby stage and jumped on to the victim's head several times from a height
  • the victim's sports trousers were torn off and a firework inserted between his buttocks
  • the bullies set light to this firework and filmed it on Snap Chat. The older boy told police the three then shook hands with each other after the explosion.
  • the three of them urinated on the victim's head
  • they had thrown empty beer cans at his head, the oldest boy throwing a full one
  • he was beaten, kicked and hit in the ribs, and his genitals trampled on
  • when the boys had finished they left him and confirmed he was still moving
  • despite being badly injured and the intervening night very cold, they did nothing to fetch help
  • the older boy said he didn't want to tell his mother until after the weekend
  • the three then sent some messages expressing remorse which one of the boys confirmed had been written to make them look better (knowing that the police would see them, thus manipulatiing the police perception aftermath)
  • the same boys and one other had also robbed and assaulted the boy three or four times previously since August 2020

Quote:
The pre-trial material on the Koskela murder shows what kind of communication the boys accused of the murder had before they met the victim killed on 4 December.

The boys ’Snapchat picture chat conversations show that young people are considering ways to get alcoholic beverages. Among other things, the talk was about "biss" or beer and "morgan" or Captain Morgan's branded rum.

At the same time, there was a discussion about how the victim should be beaten again.

- Iha hies. Begin to sit beating * the victim's name * ku it is almost a plot of its liquor, one of the accused writes.

The other party to the conversation confirmed the same plans and notes that the victim is "being beaten to beat". He tells his friend to hit the victim with a "straight face" if this doesn't bring a "gift" to the meeting. The gift apparently refers to the alcohol the boys are supposed to consume during the evening.
MTV - google translate

The defence are claiming that the boys had not intended to kill the victim. However, they cannot claim the boy died of hypothermia as it has been established that the cause of death was as a result of the multiple injuries (a page long list) that was sustained during the attack.

Quote:
Rib fractures, cerebral hemorrhage and contusion are officially the cause of death
At least another lung had erupted.
The cause of muscle death has been fractures of several ribs, a cerebral concussion, and small subarachnoid hemorrhages caused by an injury.
A builder only found the body by chance on Monday as he went over by the park to relieve himself but saw the corpse on the ground by the stage, naked from the waist down.

Two of the three boys had returned on Saturday morning to clear away the beer cans and exchange more messages, yet just left the victim there the way he was found.

The oldest boy is also accused of assaulting the two younger ones.

The parents seem to include a teacher, a physiotherapist, an actress and a well-known business guru.

The mother of the boy who didn't want to ruin his weekend but told her he had 'done something terrible' also rang the police and thus the three were arrested and charged. A fourth boy was arrested and charged for his participation in the earlier incidents.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 12:42 AM   #50
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,786
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Pretrial material released on Monday in Helsinki to the press is designed to consider whether the killing of the 15-year-old victim by two 16-year-olds and one 15-16 year-old (the date of the killing was 4 Dec 2020, his birthday) was premeditated. The prosecution are arguing, it was a cold-blooded premeditated murder citing:
  • text messages between the three planning the crime in advance
  • the plan was to invite the victim to the youngest suspect's 16th birthday party under the guise of friendly celebration
  • they planned to buy some Captain Morgan Whisky and cans of beer
  • they planned to get the young victim drunk and then beat him to death (although they didn't use those words)
  • After chatting together in a friendly way, the assault began, with Birthday Boy kicking the victim, A, in the legs
  • the other two joined in raining punches to his face and body
  • when he fell to the ground the bullies forced his mouth open and poured whisky in it, to the victim's protests
  • one of the bullies had to leave the scene for a while; the other two sent him Snap Chat pictures of them beating him
  • Whilst the victim was on the ground, the oldest boy kicked him in the head
  • They dragged him to his feet and led him to the park by the hospital where he was found
  • they then continued the assault by hitting him with a metal bar over the head and ribs
  • the boy who had left, received the messages and returned, immediately twice hitting the victim in the face with his fists
  • the oldest boy stood on the nearby stage and jumped on to the victim's head several times from a height
  • the victim's sports trousers were torn off and a firework inserted between his buttocks
  • the bullies set light to this firework and filmed it on Snap Chat. The older boy told police the three then shook hands with each other after the explosion.
  • the three of them urinated on the victim's head
  • they had thrown empty beer cans at his head, the oldest boy throwing a full one
  • he was beaten, kicked and hit in the ribs, and his genitals trampled on
  • when the boys had finished they left him and confirmed he was still moving
  • despite being badly injured and the intervening night very cold, they did nothing to fetch help
  • the older boy said he didn't want to tell his mother until after the weekend
  • the three then sent some messages expressing remorse which one of the boys confirmed had been written to make them look better (knowing that the police would see them, thus manipulatiing the police perception aftermath)
  • the same boys and one other had also robbed and assaulted the boy three or four times previously since August 2020

MTV - google translate
There are no words to adequately describe the pure evil of these three. IMO they can never be rehabilitated from that level of depravity

They knew exactly what they were doing - they planned and carried out an execution by a purposefully violent, excruciatingly painful means. Lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them. Let them rot away for the rest of their lives in jail - the public at large will never be safe if they are allowed out.
__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms.
- Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project)
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 26th February 2021 at 12:45 AM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 01:05 AM   #51
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There are no words to adequately describe the pure evil of these three. IMO they can never be rehabilitated from that level of depravity

They knew exactly what they were doing - they planned and carried out an execution by a purposefully violent, excruciatingly painful means. Lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them. Let them rot away for the rest of their lives in jail - the public at large will never be safe if they are allowed out.

My thoughts exactly. There appears to be no motive at all other than sadistic cruelty. I understand that one of them comes from a wealthy family with a big house and wears the latest designer clothes. One has a father who is said to be a journalist at YLE (the Finnish equivalent of BBC).

How can the parents be so unaware?
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 02:17 AM   #52
llwyd
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 750
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Let them rot away for the rest of their lives in jail - the public at large will never be safe if they are allowed out.
Not happening in Finland, the maximum penalty for murder is 12yrs as they are underage and the custom is to serve only a certain proportion of that time. As a general principle I totally support our mild sentences and leniency especially for 1st time offenders. This case sounds like there is one person that is pretty much permanently irredeemable likely to due to a combination of genetics and circumstances who should probably never be let back to society and then two followers that might be able to be saved. Anyway, I know that this way too liberal thinking for most people.

This is what I wrote in my blog inspired by this case and the tabloid and social media storm of moral righteousness surrounding it:

I think I have had now my fill of that debased and sadistic - even more sadistic than the original - semi-Victorian morality that oozes from almost every pore of this primitive and cruel society. There is no right to moral righteousness for anyone. When we see monsters, we see ourselves. We all would do unspeakable things in right circumstances. Not in identical circumstances depending on our luck of birth and genetics. Some are damaged from birth, fatally inverted already then. By far more have their inversions later as basically demanded by the hateful structures of society and civilization and the individual circumstance rising from these primitive structures. This is not to say that many people would not be permanently deformed. There are many such irredeemable people and they should have no access ever to the general society. But no "punishments", no moral superiority, just as humane precautions as possible. And no right whatsoever to righteousness.
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 02:57 AM   #53
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Not happening in Finland, the maximum penalty for murder is 12yrs as they are underage and the custom is to serve only a certain proportion of that time. As a general principle I totally support our mild sentences and leniency especially for 1st time offenders. This case sounds like there is one person that is pretty much permanently irredeemable likely to due to a combination of genetics and circumstances who should probably never be let back to society and then two followers that might be able to be saved. Anyway, I know that this way too liberal thinking for most people.

This is what I wrote in my blog inspired by this case and the tabloid and social media storm of moral righteousness surrounding it:

I think I have had now my fill of that debased and sadistic - even more sadistic than the original - semi-Victorian morality that oozes from almost every pore of this primitive and cruel society. There is no right to moral righteousness for anyone. When we see monsters, we see ourselves. We all would do unspeakable things in right circumstances. Not in identical circumstances depending on our luck of birth and genetics. Some are damaged from birth, fatally inverted already then. By far more have their inversions later as basically demanded by the hateful structures of society and civilization and the individual circumstance rising from these primitive structures. This is not to say that many people would not be permanently deformed. There are many such irredeemable people and they should have no access ever to the general society. But no "punishments", no moral superiority, just as humane precautions as possible. And no right whatsoever to righteousness.
First of all, the boy who was the most violent, is not necessarily the boy who was the worst. In law it is to do with intentionality. There is the other boy who was popular and who seems to have planned it, with the other two boys vying for his approval. For the other two boys, he seems to have been their only friend. One boy didn't even know the victim (the most violent one). However, it was the victim's oldest friend from early childhood - their parents may have been in business together - who started the violence and even as he forcibly poured strong alcohol into the victim's mouth, tried to persuade (deceive) him that, 'I am on your side...'

The chattering classes are focussed on the 'lack of empathy'. How much of it is due to the mindless violence in young adult Netflix series or computer games, not to mention the fashion of capturing everything on Snap Chat? These boys thought beating up a 'friend' made for good social media sharing.

Which one of the boys is the true psychopath, too dangerous to ever be let out except under heavy licence in perhaps old age?

The one who - like perhaps Charles Manson - manipulated young teenage naive minds into doing his cold-blooded will? The one who was happy to use a metal rod in an obscene way to a boy one year younger - whom he hardly knew - and then strike him hard with it (having brought it along in advance)? Or the one who was a friend from childhood who betrayed him by pretending to be a friend and inviting him to join him in his sixteenth birthday celebration? This latter boy seems to have been seeking the approval of the first, Alpha, boy, with he, too, almost a year younger than the other two. It is said this was the boy who told his (single) mum the following Monday.

Two of these boys would do it again.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; 26th February 2021 at 03:00 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 03:09 AM   #54
llwyd
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 750
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
First of all, the boy who was the most violent, is not necessarily the boy who was the worst. In law it is to do with intentionality. There is the other boy who was popular and who seems to have planned it, with the other two boys vying for his approval. For the other two boys, he seems to have been their only friend. One boy didn't even know the victim (the most violent one).
Well, at the moment versions and interpretations vary. In the well known Heino case where teenage boys murdered a married couple, it was widely seen that there was one quite psychopathic manipulator and two weak followers, and based on media many people seem to think that this pattern was repeated here. Though it might be that this disgusting, totally abhorrent deed was the result of all three meeting. Quite possibly, with any of the three missing, the end result would not have been a murder.
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 03:32 AM   #55
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Well, at the moment versions and interpretations vary. In the well known Heino case where teenage boys murdered a married couple, it was widely seen that there was one quite psychopathic manipulator and two weak followers, and based on media many people seem to think that this pattern was repeated here. Though it might be that this disgusting, totally abhorrent deed was the result of all three meeting. Quite possibly, with any of the three missing, the end result would not have been a murder.

The main perp in the Heino case - who was the only one convicted of murder and appears to be already out of prison - was motivated by money and revenge for a perceived slight (in being ripped off over mobile phone sell and buy), not to mention the fact his family are millionaires. Certainly, that guy shows clear psychopathic symptoms: manipulative of others, machiavellian, cunning and calculating (disposing of the bodies in suticases and throwing them in the sea), getting two gullible young lads to do the actual killing, no doubt in thrall of his wealth and popularity, not to mention educated charm and good manners.

There is another case of a 15-year-old girl in Seinäjoki who, in a fit of insane jealously over a boy she was infatuated with, stabbed another girl over sixteen times in the chest, in 2015. She got just nine years and seems to be already out of prison, as youth offenders only have to do two-thirds, by law. Looking at the details of her crime, one could say there are clear signs of psychosis to let jealousy lead you to the slaying of another innocent young girl, yet, she was imprisoned, not hospitalised.

In this current Koskela case, one of the boys, the golden 'popular' boy B (not boy A, the rich violent one) actually texted to boy C, the youngest, the victim's oldest friend, 'We're in Finland so we can get away with it', or words to that effect. Machiavellian, or what?! He knows two of them will get just two to three years and hopes that Boy A will get the twelve years for murder, out in nine.*

What has Finland become when teenage thrill killers know they will be treated with gentle kid gloves? There was a time murderers were executed by an axe to the neck!


*Boy B has been caught scheming with Boy C in the aftermath to put all the blame on Boy A. This is because these messages are afterwards, designed for police eyes, yet Boy B and Boy C managed to block boy A and remove the locations immediately after, so they knew how to 'get rid'. As a measure of how cold-bloodedly calculating this boy B is, he claims he is only responsible for punching the victim in the face twice and his interrogation interview is said to be full of 'I don't recall', 'I don't remember', or 'I don't know', in comparison to Boy A, who has tried to be as full and and helpful as possible to the police, giving them a detailed description.**

**Notandum: Disclaimer: this is just internet chatter and might be complete ********.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; 27th February 2021 at 03:34 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM   #56
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Trial Resumes Monday 1 Mar 2021

So today the hearing resumes.

Quote:
The trial of Helsinki's Koskela teenage death ends this week. The district court will hear the oldest teenage boy on Monday and will still meet for final statements on Wednesday.

Monday's session began in camera.

- The hearing will probably take hours, regional prosecutor Satu Pomoell estimates in the district court.
The prosecutors are aiming to prove the minimal level of probability: that the accused ought to and should have been aware that the level of violence they used against the victim very likely would have led to his death.

Quote:
In addition to the unity of the act, it is crucial in the trial whether the defendants intentionally killed the victim. The prosecutor confirmed on Monday morning that the trial was about so-called probabilistic intent .

- Of course, it is the core issues, which has been their purpose. The thing is probably around proving the lowest degree of intent.

The statement means that the prosecutor does not allege that the boys had an explicit intention to die the victim. According to the prosecutor, the boys must have understood that death was a fairly probable consequence of their actions. The premise is sufficient to prosecute murder.

The prosecutor's claim of direct intent to kill would not necessarily succeed in court. Among other things, the boys have said that the victim was left alive at the crime scene. In the case, some respondents admit, for example, aggravated assault and aggravated death.
One of the boys or more claims to have seen the victim's hand move (one hand was deliberately broken by boy A, the one who barely knew the victim but did know boy B from riippukoulu (confirmation class for sixteen-year-olds)). Boy B, seems to be at the centre of the Venn diagram, knowing all three of the boys, the victim and his best friend Boy C, from primary school. That the victim's hand moved could easily have been an after death movement, which is not at all uncommon. In any case, as of the time the defendants walked off, leaving the victim out in the freezing 3°C temperature, the victim had had his personal bodily region so badly mutilated his testicles would have had to have been removed even had the boys attempted to save him.

The stunning part is, that 6th Dec, just after the 4 Dec 2020 slaying, was Finland's biggest day of the year, after Christmas, Independence Day, where traditionally everybody stocks up on food to watch television all evening as the movers and shakers, together with the war time veterans, all dressed in their finest clothes shake hands with the President or are honoured with medals and awards. So, the Boy who waited until AFTER the weekend before telling his mother, really didn't care, callously and coldly deciding he'd enjoy the national holiday instead, first, whilst his victim lay in the cold and dark, with his arms spread out, as reported by the builder who discovered him on the Monday.

There have been no applications for bail, which would have been refused anyway, due to the aggravated nature of the crime and no objection to the order for a psychological assessment of the defendants.

Quote:
By Monday morning, two of the victim’s childhood friends had shared their views of what was happening in the hall. The pre-trial report revealed that one of them had burst into tears after the act when he told about the events. The boys still deny the murder and their involvement in the most serious violence in general.

- Respondents were willing to find out and did well given their age and level of development. I am satisfied with the way the process has proceeded, the prosecutor said.
ILTA-LEHTI [Google translate]


Of course, one does have to bear in mind that these are still growing adolescents. Their ability to grasp the enormity of what they did would not be at the same level of a worldly wise adult who does understand the meaning of consequences and the permanence of death, together with the deep sense of loss experienced by the deceased's nearest and dearest. The boys likely saw it as a huge joke, even, although of course, many criminals who go on to be psychopathic cold-blooded killers did shows signs of sadism and cruelty in childhood. For example, poisoner Graham Young, or child killer Mary Bell, who strangled pigeons. So we do have to realise that these are undeveloped young adults with an ipso facto flawed sense of responsibility and balance it against an incredibly sadistic act against a 'friend' and to ensure justice for the victim as well as making allowances for them.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; Yesterday at 08:10 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM   #57
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,373
Reading about the mutilations, I suffered a fantasy of a feral pack of drink-maddened little bastards using their puukkot on a lone and helpless child.

No more details, please.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM   #58
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,809
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Reading about the mutilations, I suffered a fantasy of a feral pack of drink-maddened little bastards using their puukkot on a lone and helpless child.

No more details, please.
Putki in this case, not puukko.

Pictured: released police photo of the supposed metal rod used in the crime.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; Yesterday at 09:12 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:40 AM   #59
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,373
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Reading about the mutilations, I suffered a fantasy of a feral pack of drink-maddened little bastards using their puukkot on a lone and helpless child.

No more details, please.
I said please, now didn't I?

I meant it.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.