Allopathic Medicine!!! - Page 6

Carrot Flower King · 26th February 2021, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by welshdean

I’ve heard this 'pill colour' claim beyond Goldacre. Is he the source of the claim?

I have a memory of seeing it in a Horizon programme about placebo a few years back, as well as reading it in Goldacre.

Carrot Flower King · 26th February 2021, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

It’s diluted until nothing is left but the quack.

And if it was a wigeon, then not even a quack...

Norman Alexander · 26th February 2021, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And people wonder why I've been calling it Big Supp.

Indeed! A multi-billion dollar industry in the USA alone.

Quote:

In the United States, the dietary supplement industry’s overall economic impact in 2016 is $122 billion and it continues to grow.

https://www.crnusa.org/resources/eco...ement-industry

hecd2 · 26th February 2021, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

I have a memory of seeing it in a Horizon programme about placebo a few years back, as well as reading it in Goldacre.

Are you remembering Derren Brown's TV programme Fear and Faith, where he set up an unscientific but nevertheless quite convincing placebo study? If memory serves right he found pill colour had an influence.

http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/pro...wn-fear-faith/

bruto · 26th February 2021, 10:41 AM

I had a great grandfather, and grandfather too, both doctors, who supposedly had a bottle of white pills for this purpose. Their contention was that placebo pills should be white. This is entirely anecdotal, of course, but that's what they said.

zooterkin · 27th February 2021, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

In the case of occilococcinum, it's diluted until not even the quack is left.

I think you’re overlooking the one selling you the remedy.

Carrot Flower King · 27th February 2021, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by hecd2

Are you remembering Derren Brown's TV programme Fear and Faith, where he set up an unscientific but nevertheless quite convincing placebo study? If memory serves right he found pill colour had an influence.

http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/pro...wn-fear-faith/

Pretty sure it was Horizon; never watched any Derren Brown.

welshdean · 28th February 2021, 09:05 AM

For those interested, search for the video
BBC Horizon, Homeopathy - The test.

arthwollipot · 28th February 2021, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

This one?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8991013/

Honestly, I'm not sure, and I'm not about to go back through three years of podcasts, entertaining and informative though they are, to verify it. I'm reporting from memory and may get specific details wrong - the main point is that any "mind over matter" effects claimed for the placebo effect are in fact little more than uncontrolled variables.

Caroline13 · 28th February 2021, 08:46 PM

Norman Alexander · 28th February 2021, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Good! You found the smilies.

Steve · Yesterday, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Good! You found the smilies.

"Good" is the wrong word.

JesseCuster · Yesterday, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

A glass of water does NOT get me to sleep. And I worked up a sleep combo about close to 30 yrs ago when I went thru menopause...So much changes at this point in our lives. I'm never without Calms, Inositol, 1mg Melatonin, L thyptophan and B6 which is all for my 8-10 hrs of healing sleep.

Continued good sleep with your glass of water.

You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow.

Norman Alexander · Yesterday, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow.

Addicted to the names. They sound "sciency" so they must be good.

More dihydrogen monoxide in your scotch?

Steve · Yesterday, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow.

Seems like a drug dependency to me.

Drug, def.: a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body.

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Indeed! A multi-billion dollar industry in the USA alone.

https://www.crnusa.org/resources/eco...ement-industry

Good good good, BIG pharma needs to be knocked down from their throne. But they will always be on top thanks to all the sheeple.

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow.

What is NORMAL night's sleep? Are you 82 live in chronic pain from OA and hip replacement damage? Thank goodness I've never ventured to the Ambien sleep walk, cook, drive drug millions take for sleep.

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Seems like a drug dependency to me.

Drug, def.: a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body.

No it's a supplement dependency. Thank you very much.

Steve · Yesterday, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No it's a supplement dependency. Thank you very much.

If a supplement has a physiological effect it is a substance that has a physiological effect. Which falls under the definition of a drug. Upon which you are dependent. Your wordplay is infantile.

And why are you thanking me?

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 03:03 PM

Sarcastic thank you I guess.

I sleep 8-10 needed sleep so this is good...I have no hang overs, no side effects and don't get up and cook and walk in my sleep.

How do you sleep, Steve...are you a perfect night sleep person?

Steve · Yesterday, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Sarcastic thank you I guess.

I sleep 8-10 needed sleep so this is good...I have no hang overs, no side effects and don't get up and cook and walk in my sleep.

How do you sleep, Steve...are you a perfect night sleep person?

Deleted. irrelevant to the discussion.

steenkh · Yesterday, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Good good good, BIG pharma needs to be knocked down from their throne. But they will always be on top thanks to all the sheeple.

His link was about the BIG supplementary pharma, so you are among the sheeple here ...

Gord_in_Toronto · Yesterday, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by steenkh

His link was about the BIG supplementary pharma, so you are among the sheeple here ...

And so it is! Purveyors of potions and piffle.

Deserves two:

SezMe · Yesterday, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Are you 82 live in chronic pain from OA and hip replacement damage?.

You've mentioned that more than once. Since you're in SoCal, why don't you go to the UCLA Medical Center and consult with a specialist there. It's a world-class facility with a well regarded orthopedic department. There's no reason to live in pain.

Or are you so wedded to alternative junk medicine that you won't even consider improving your life style?

No, wait. Don't answer that last question. Your reply would sadden me.

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

You've mentioned that more than once. Since you're in SoCal, why don't you go to the UCLA Medical Center and consult with a specialist there. It's a world-class facility with a well regarded orthopedic department. There's no reason to live in pain.

Or are you so wedded to alternative junk medicine that you won't even consider improving your life style?

No, wait. Don't answer that last question. Your reply would sadden me.

No way, they would dish out pharma drugs...

And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again..

I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs.

My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body.

And for sure surgery can't be undone.

And for sure plain and simple: Negligence on UCLA, when not in the hospital, in 3 rehabs, so gone from home a total of 4.5 monts.

hecd2 · Yesterday, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No way, they would dish out pharma drugs...

And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again..

I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs.

My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body.

And for sure surgery can't be undone.

It's all anecdotal.

For all your supplements and homeopathic preps, you do seem to be sadly crocked.

Do you know how many successful hip and knee replacements are done worldwide every year?

If there's a lesson in this thread, it's that anecdotal evidence is worthless - you have to look at statistically significant data.

Which reveals that homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo. And that's the bottom line.

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by hecd2

It's all anecdotal.

For all your supplements and homeopathic preps, you do seem to be sadly crocked.

Do you know how many successful hip and knee replacements are done worldwide every year?

If there's a lesson in this thread, it's that anecdotal evidence is worthless - you have to look at statistically significant data.

Which reveals that homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo. And that's the bottom line.

And do you know how many end up with damage from this major surgery, MANY!!!! And enough end up with long term damage from knee replacement and shoulder replacements...I've been checking all this out since my hip job 10 yrs ago.....

And I gave the surgeon a piece of mind on his yelp reviews....at least 12 of us did the same.

And this is my story, I couldn't make this one up. Anecdotal????

Caroline13 · Yesterday, 06:27 PM

I was going to post a couple links on Deaths from Drug Interactions and another one on

Deaths From Hospitalizations..

But why bother, it's like trying to get thru to the pharma mentality and their business.

hecd2 · Yesterday, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

And do you know how many end up with damage from this major surgery, MANY!!!! And enough end up with long term damage from knee replacement and shoulder replacements...I've been checking all this out since my hip job 10 yrs ago.....

So what is the worldwide (or even the US) ratio between successful hip replacements and those with serious complications? I'm looking for a number here, and a peer reviewed reference to support it.

Quote:

And this is my story, I couldn't make this one up. Anecdotal????

Yes it's the dictionary definition of anecdotal.

Gord_in_Toronto · Yesterday, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I was going to post a couple links on Deaths from Drug Interactions and another one on

Deaths From Hospitalizations..

But why bother, it's like trying to get thru to the pharma mentality and their business.

And yet you can't explain why your regime of assorted herbs and spices that has permitted you to live to 82 is better than that the five people I've referenced who have lived to 100 by smoking and boozing?

You really don't have a clue about statistics do you?

Norman Alexander · Yesterday, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No way, they would dish out pharma drugs...

And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again..

So let's unpack this.

You were so sick that you had to be taken to hospital on a gurney, i.e. by ambulance. So in what way is that the fault of the hospital? You were sick before you even got there.

From the sounds of it, this was a last resort effort. You were SO sick that you had to be dragged there. Thus whatever you were taking beforehand simply didn't work. Your condition was very poor, which is why it took so long to get it dealt with.

I also find it VERY hard to believe it took a hospital more than 8 weeks to find an infection. That sort of thing shows up in simple, rapid blood tests, which would have been the first thing they did. Some follow-ups would have been needed to locate the infection, which may have taken a few days.

However deep-seated, well-established infections do take time to deal with. These sorts of infections happen when patients refuse to be treated as soon as they get symptoms, and let the problem (literally) fester. These are more common among indigents and homeless without medical insurance, who cannot afford treatment. Health deniers, however, are worse. They COULD be treated but stubbornly won't. Until their problem is a long, long way down the track and has caused significant and irreparable physical damage...sound familiar?

A "clean-out of the knee cartilage" is necessary only for extensive joint damage such as from car accidents or sports injuries, or due to long-term, deep-seated, untreated infections. I don't think you are a pro-footballer...

"Alternative collagen", if it contains collagen, is collagen. Like "organic salt" is still sodium chloride. The difference is only the price.

And now you are on a "trusty walker". Which says your knee no longer supports free walking. And you say you persist with your holistic regime. This says it has done nothing - it has not made you better. The only thing that has made any progress for you has been the surgery.

Quote:

I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs.

How do you know if your "holistic food based supplements" are toxic or not? I suggest being very careful what you take. Most of them are completely unregulated, and some of them are deadly. In short, they are unregulated drugs.

Quote:

My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body.

How was your mobility and condition before your hip replacement? I take it that wasn't a cosmetic procedure but necessary? If it was worse before the surgery, it looks like you are complaining that they improved your condition.

Quote:

And for sure surgery can't be undone.

Amputations can't be undone. But hip surgery certainly can be repeated. It frequently is. But I'm interested where you got your degree in medicine and surgery so you are so sure about this.

Quote:

And for sure plain and simple: Negligence on UCLA, when not in the hospital, in 3 rehabs, so gone from home a total of 4.5 monts.

So sue them for negligence. It's truly the American way. Good luck.

Pixel42 · Yesterday, 11:27 PM

https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatm...p-replacement/

Quote:

Hip replacement surgery is one of the most successful operations in all of medicine. Since the early 1960s, improvements in joint replacement surgical techniques and technology have greatly increased the effectiveness of total hip replacement. According to the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, more than 450,000 total hip replacements are performed each year in the United States.

Hip replacement surgery has helped millions of people. It sucks if you're one of the few it didn't help, but to use that single experience as an excuse to condemn not only the procedure itself but the whole of modern medicine is utterly ridiculous.

Mojo · Today, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Honestly, I'm not sure, and I'm not about to go back through three years of podcasts, entertaining and informative though they are, to verify it. I'm reporting from memory and may get specific details wrong - the main point is that any "mind over matter" effects claimed for the placebo effect are in fact little more than uncontrolled variables.

Are you thinking of the 1955 Beecher “powerful placebo” paper?

Quote:

In 1955, Henry K. Beecher published the classic work entitled "The Powerful Placebo." Since that time, 40 years ago, the placebo effect has been considered a scientific fact. Beecher was the first scientist to quantify the placebo effect. He claimed that in 15 trials with different diseases, 35% of 1082 patients were satisfactorily relieved by a placebo alone. This publication is still the most frequently cited placebo reference. Recently Beecher's article was reanalyzed with surprising results: In contrast to his claim, no evidence was found of any placebo effect in any of the studies cited by him. There were many other factors that could account for the reported improvements in patients in these trials, but most likely there was no placebo effect whatsoever.

G S Kienle, H Kiene (1997). The powerful placebo effect: fact or fiction? J Clin Epidemiol 50(12):1311-8.

Darat · Today, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Are you thinking of the 1955 Beecher “powerful placebo” paper?

G S Kienle, H Kiene (1997). The powerful placebo effect: fact or fiction? J Clin Epidemiol 50(12):1311-8.

So the placebo effect is a placebo?

Darat · Today, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatm...p-replacement/

Hip replacement surgery has helped millions of people. It sucks if you're one of the few it didn't help, but to use that single experience as an excuse to condemn not only the procedure itself but the whole of modern medicine is utterly ridiculous.

Totally not related but my very first orthopaedic consultant was John Charnley, considered the founder of modern hip replacement. He was a character to say the least.

steenkh · Today, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by hecd2

Which reveals that homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo. And that's the bottom line.

Placebo is not bad in itself. There are many conditions that cannot be helped, but if a placebo treatment helps, then that is much better than no treatment at all.

Problem is that two persons likely will not be helped by the same placebo treatment, so each have to decide for themselves what works best.

I think that Caroline should continue enjoying a pain free life with restful sleep, taking as many pills and drops as she likes, no matter if they are actually without any active ingredients.

Personally, I have scolded a pharmacist who wanted to make me buy homoeopathic drops against a nasty cough, and I later found that a glass of water relieved the cough. Placebo, anyone?

Carrot Flower King · Today, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I was going to post a couple links on Deaths from Drug Interactions and another one on

Deaths From Hospitalizations..

But why bother, it's like trying to get thru to the pharma mentality and their business.

Go on then: it will be interesting to see if this is any different from a number of these things which have appeared over the years and shown to be one of complete fabrication, cherry picking into meaninglessness, misreading of stats or in some other way erroneous. I mean, all of us who've worked in healthcare know that hospitals are terrible places - full of sick, poorly and injured people. And, in the case of my sister's team, dying people, given she works in palliative care...Post away - I'll certainly read.

Oh dear, "pharma mentality": FYI, in my professional life I spent most of my time doing anything but "pharma" anything, being far more involved in talking or behavioural therapies, with any drugs, per our guidelines over here, as a last resort, which was not usual for my caseload.

In my personal life I am taking a bunch of drugs, which have kept me alive the last 4 years and will continue to do so for more to come. This isn't "pharma mentality", but pragmatism, as I'm not ready to die yet. "Supplements", OTOH, would have flat out killed me (or, if I want to be a bit fairer, which I'm not sure I do, made me die a long time ago).

Pragmatism rules!

Cosmic Yak · Today, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No way, they would dish out pharma drugs...

And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again..

I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs.

My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body.

And for sure surgery can't be undone.

And for sure plain and simple: Negligence on UCLA, when not in the hospital, in 3 rehabs, so gone from home a total of 4.5 monts.

This is a puzzling post.
You start by saying how you reject pharmaceuticals, and then launch into a long-winded anecdote about surgery and hospitals. Not sure I see the connection there.
I'm not a doctor, but I would assume the only 'pharma toxic drug' you would have had during surgery is an anaesthetic.
Do you reject the use of anaesthetics?
You also detail the problems you had with surgical procedures.
Do you reject surgery?
If so, what would you propose as a replacement?
You also say that the drugs you were given to clear up the infection made it worse. Can you elaborate? Exactly how did these drugs worsen your problems? What 'toxic' effects did you notice from them?

Asking more out of idle curiosity, than with any expectation of a reply. Such is life.
Oh, and Caroline13, just to forestall you- I don't want to buy any of your supplements. Please restrict your reply to the points I have raised here. Thanks.

Mojo · Today, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

So the placebo effect is a placebo?

Pretty much, yes. It amuses the patient while nature cures the disease.

MRC_Hans · Today, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Pretty much, yes. It amuses the patient while nature cures the disease.

Well, placebo is a bit complicated. There are at least three kinds, (in random order as they can't bee ranked):

- The kind mentioned above. The disease is real, physical, and self-resolving. Placebo calms the patient while nature does it's work. It may make the patient feel better, but has no actual effect on the disease.

- In conditions that are partly or entirely psychosomatic, placebo may calm the patient and help make the condition improve or even go away. It can backfire, however: By administering "medicine" you may confirm the patient in believing they are actually ill, and thus make them feel worse. Even if they get better, they may feel addicted to the medicine, believing the condition will return if they stop the medicine.

- The kind of "placebo effect" observed in double-blind placebo-controlled drug trials. This is any effect observed in the control group. It could be one or both of the above, observations biases, etc.

Hans

26th February 2021, 05:58 AM	#203
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,773	Originally Posted by arthwollipot And people wonder why I've been calling it Big Supp. Indeed! A multi-billion dollar industry in the USA alone. Quote: In the United States, the dietary supplement industry’s overall economic impact in 2016 is $122 billion and it continues to grow. https://www.crnusa.org/resources/eco...ement-industry
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

26th February 2021, 06:03 AM	#204
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King I have a memory of seeing it in a Horizon programme about placebo a few years back, as well as reading it in Goldacre. Are you remembering Derren Brown's TV programme Fear and Faith, where he set up an unscientific but nevertheless quite convincing placebo study? If memory serves right he found pill colour had an influence. http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/pro...wn-fear-faith/
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941

26th February 2021, 10:41 AM	#205
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,708	I had a great grandfather, and grandfather too, both doctors, who supposedly had a bottle of white pills for this purpose. Their contention was that placebo pills should be white. This is entirely anecdotal, of course, but that's what they said.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

27th February 2021, 05:21 AM	#206
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,397	Originally Posted by arthwollipot In the case of occilococcinum, it's diluted until not even the quack is left. I think you’re overlooking the one selling you the remedy.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th February 2021, 09:05 AM	#208
welshdean Heb ei fai, heb ei eni Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,854	For those interested, search for the video BBC Horizon, Homeopathy - The test.
	__________________ "In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP

26th February 2021, 04:34 AM	#201
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	Originally Posted by welshdean I’ve heard this 'pill colour' claim beyond Goldacre. Is he the source of the claim? I have a memory of seeing it in a Horizon programme about placebo a few years back, as well as reading it in Goldacre.

26th February 2021, 04:35 AM	#202
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	Originally Posted by Mojo It’s diluted until nothing is left but the quack. And if it was a wigeon, then not even a quack...

27th February 2021, 05:46 AM	#207
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	Originally Posted by hecd2 Are you remembering Derren Brown's TV programme Fear and Faith, where he set up an unscientific but nevertheless quite convincing placebo study? If memory serves right he found pill colour had an influence. http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/pro...wn-fear-faith/ Pretty sure it was Horizon; never watched any Derren Brown.

28th February 2021, 04:22 PM	#209
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,272	Originally Posted by Mojo This one? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8991013/ Honestly, I'm not sure, and I'm not about to go back through three years of podcasts, entertaining and informative though they are, to verify it. I'm reporting from memory and may get specific details wrong - the main point is that any "mind over matter" effects claimed for the placebo effect are in fact little more than uncontrolled variables.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

28th February 2021, 08:46 PM	#210
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220
	Last edited by Caroline13; 28th February 2021 at 08:52 PM.

28th February 2021, 08:56 PM	#211
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,773	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Good! You found the smilies.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

Yesterday, 04:29 AM	#212
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,388	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Good! You found the smilies. "Good" is the wrong word.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Yesterday, 04:55 AM	#213
JesseCuster Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,202	Originally Posted by Caroline13 A glass of water does NOT get me to sleep. And I worked up a sleep combo about close to 30 yrs ago when I went thru menopause...So much changes at this point in our lives. I'm never without Calms, Inositol, 1mg Melatonin, L thyptophan and B6 which is all for my 8-10 hrs of healing sleep. Continued good sleep with your glass of water. You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow.

Yesterday, 05:01 AM	#214
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,773	Originally Posted by JesseCuster You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow. Addicted to the names. They sound "sciency" so they must be good. More dihydrogen monoxide in your scotch?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

Yesterday, 05:46 AM	#215
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,388	Originally Posted by JesseCuster You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow. Seems like a drug dependency to me. Drug, def.: a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Yesterday, 01:01 PM	#216
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Indeed! A multi-billion dollar industry in the USA alone. https://www.crnusa.org/resources/eco...ement-industry Good good good, BIG pharma needs to be knocked down from their throne. But they will always be on top thanks to all the sheeple.

Yesterday, 01:05 PM	#217
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Originally Posted by JesseCuster You take five different supplements for something as basic as getting a normal night's sleep? Wow. What is NORMAL night's sleep? Are you 82 live in chronic pain from OA and hip replacement damage? Thank goodness I've never ventured to the Ambien sleep walk, cook, drive drug millions take for sleep.

Yesterday, 01:07 PM	#218
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Originally Posted by Steve Seems like a drug dependency to me. Drug, def.: a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body. No it's a supplement dependency. Thank you very much.

Yesterday, 01:58 PM	#219
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,388	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No it's a supplement dependency. Thank you very much. If a supplement has a physiological effect it is a substance that has a physiological effect. Which falls under the definition of a drug. Upon which you are dependent. Your wordplay is infantile. And why are you thanking me?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Yesterday, 03:03 PM	#220
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Sarcastic thank you I guess. I sleep 8-10 needed sleep so this is good...I have no hang overs, no side effects and don't get up and cook and walk in my sleep. How do you sleep, Steve...are you a perfect night sleep person?
	Last edited by Caroline13; Yesterday at 03:04 PM.

Yesterday, 03:25 PM	#221
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,388	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Sarcastic thank you I guess. I sleep 8-10 needed sleep so this is good...I have no hang overs, no side effects and don't get up and cook and walk in my sleep. How do you sleep, Steve...are you a perfect night sleep person? Deleted. irrelevant to the discussion.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!" Last edited by Steve; Yesterday at 03:26 PM.

Yesterday, 03:31 PM	#222
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,142	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Good good good, BIG pharma needs to be knocked down from their throne. But they will always be on top thanks to all the sheeple. His link was about the BIG supplementary pharma, so you are among the sheeple here ...
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

Yesterday, 04:46 PM	#223
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,404	Originally Posted by steenkh His link was about the BIG supplementary pharma, so you are among the sheeple here ... And so it is! Purveyors of potions and piffle. Deserves two:
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

Yesterday, 05:32 PM	#224
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 24,970	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Are you 82 live in chronic pain from OA and hip replacement damage?. You've mentioned that more than once. Since you're in SoCal, why don't you go to the UCLA Medical Center and consult with a specialist there. It's a world-class facility with a well regarded orthopedic department. There's no reason to live in pain. Or are you so wedded to alternative junk medicine that you won't even consider improving your life style? No, wait. Don't answer that last question. Your reply would sadden me.
	Last edited by SezMe; Yesterday at 05:35 PM.

Yesterday, 06:03 PM	#225
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Originally Posted by SezMe You've mentioned that more than once. Since you're in SoCal, why don't you go to the UCLA Medical Center and consult with a specialist there. It's a world-class facility with a well regarded orthopedic department. There's no reason to live in pain. Or are you so wedded to alternative junk medicine that you won't even consider improving your life style? No, wait. Don't answer that last question. Your reply would sadden me. No way, they would dish out pharma drugs... And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again.. I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs. My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body. And for sure surgery can't be undone. And for sure plain and simple: Negligence on UCLA, when not in the hospital, in 3 rehabs, so gone from home a total of 4.5 monts.
	Last edited by Caroline13; Yesterday at 06:16 PM.

Yesterday, 06:13 PM	#226
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No way, they would dish out pharma drugs... And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again.. I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs. My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body. And for sure surgery can't be undone. It's all anecdotal. For all your supplements and homeopathic preps, you do seem to be sadly crocked. Do you know how many successful hip and knee replacements are done worldwide every year? If there's a lesson in this thread, it's that anecdotal evidence is worthless - you have to look at statistically significant data. Which reveals that homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo. And that's the bottom line.
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941

Yesterday, 06:21 PM	#227
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	Originally Posted by hecd2 It's all anecdotal. For all your supplements and homeopathic preps, you do seem to be sadly crocked. Do you know how many successful hip and knee replacements are done worldwide every year? If there's a lesson in this thread, it's that anecdotal evidence is worthless - you have to look at statistically significant data. Which reveals that homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo. And that's the bottom line. And do you know how many end up with damage from this major surgery, MANY!!!! And enough end up with long term damage from knee replacement and shoulder replacements...I've been checking all this out since my hip job 10 yrs ago..... And I gave the surgeon a piece of mind on his yelp reviews....at least 12 of us did the same. And this is my story, I couldn't make this one up. Anecdotal????

Yesterday, 06:27 PM	#228
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 220	I was going to post a couple links on Deaths from Drug Interactions and another one on Deaths From Hospitalizations.. But why bother, it's like trying to get thru to the pharma mentality and their business.

Yesterday, 06:31 PM	#229
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941	Originally Posted by Caroline13 And do you know how many end up with damage from this major surgery, MANY!!!! And enough end up with long term damage from knee replacement and shoulder replacements...I've been checking all this out since my hip job 10 yrs ago..... So what is the worldwide (or even the US) ratio between successful hip replacements and those with serious complications? I'm looking for a number here, and a peer reviewed reference to support it. Quote: And this is my story, I couldn't make this one up. Anecdotal???? Yes it's the dictionary definition of anecdotal.
hecd2 Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 941

Yesterday, 06:33 PM	#230
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,404	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I was going to post a couple links on Deaths from Drug Interactions and another one on Deaths From Hospitalizations.. But why bother, it's like trying to get thru to the pharma mentality and their business. And yet you can't explain why your regime of assorted herbs and spices that has permitted you to live to 82 is better than that the five people I've referenced who have lived to 100 by smoking and boozing? You really don't have a clue about statistics do you?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

Yesterday, 06:43 PM	#231
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,773	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No way, they would dish out pharma drugs... And further more, I was under their care back in 2016 when I could not walk or even stand and had to be taken on gurney and they took me to UCLA, and for 2.5 months I was in fear that I would not walk and finally they did a MRI and found a blasted knee infection...2.5 months before they went to an MRI...altogether I was under their POOR CARE for 4.5 months and when they finally found the infection, then 2.5 months of abx IV and they chose to do a clean out of knee and I believe it made it all worse, any collagen in the knee they cleaned it out...Now I'm taking an Alternative collagen product and working to get some collagen back and my trusty walker since the UCLA saga....NO, I hope I never beckon those doors again.. So let's unpack this. You were so sick that you had to be taken to hospital on a gurney, i.e. by ambulance. So in what way is that the fault of the hospital? You were sick before you even got there. From the sounds of it, this was a last resort effort. You were SO sick that you had to be dragged there. Thus whatever you were taking beforehand simply didn't work. Your condition was very poor, which is why it took so long to get it dealt with. I also find it VERY hard to believe it took a hospital more than 8 weeks to find an infection. That sort of thing shows up in simple, rapid blood tests, which would have been the first thing they did. Some follow-ups would have been needed to locate the infection, which may have taken a few days. However deep-seated, well-established infections do take time to deal with. These sorts of infections happen when patients refuse to be treated as soon as they get symptoms, and let the problem (literally) fester. These are more common among indigents and homeless without medical insurance, who cannot afford treatment. Health deniers, however, are worse. They COULD be treated but stubbornly won't. Until their problem is a long, long way down the track and has caused significant and irreparable physical damage...sound familiar? A "clean-out of the knee cartilage" is necessary only for extensive joint damage such as from car accidents or sports injuries, or due to long-term, deep-seated, untreated infections. I don't *think* you are a pro-footballer... "Alternative collagen", if it contains collagen, is collagen. Like "organic salt" is still sodium chloride. The difference is only the price. And now you are on a "trusty walker". Which says your knee no longer supports free walking. And you say you persist with your holistic regime. This says it has done nothing - it has not made you better. The only thing that has made any progress for you has been the surgery. Quote: I do just great with my holistic food based supplements and want no part of more pharma toxic drugs. How do you know if your "holistic food based supplements" are toxic or not? I suggest being very careful what you take. Most of them are completely unregulated, and some of them are deadly. In short, they are unregulated drugs. Quote: My first major downfall was a hip replacement at St. Johns, maybe I should have chosen UCLA, but so many lessons learned from this hard hard surgery and the aftermath with all the damage done to my body. How was your mobility and condition before your hip replacement? I take it that wasn't a cosmetic procedure but necessary? If it was worse before the surgery, it looks like you are complaining that they improved your condition. Quote: And for sure surgery can't be undone. Amputations can't be undone. But hip surgery certainly can be repeated. It frequently is. But I'm interested where you got your degree in medicine and surgery so you are so sure about this. Quote: And for sure plain and simple: Negligence on UCLA, when not in the hospital, in 3 rehabs, so gone from home a total of 4.5 monts. So sue them for negligence. It's truly the American way. Good luck.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; Yesterday at 06:46 PM.

Yesterday, 11:27 PM	#232
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 12,998	https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatm...p-replacement/ Quote: Hip replacement surgery is one of the most successful operations in all of medicine. Since the early 1960s, improvements in joint replacement surgical techniques and technology have greatly increased the effectiveness of total hip replacement. According to the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, more than 450,000 total hip replacements are performed each year in the United States. Hip replacement surgery has helped millions of people. It sucks if you're one of the few it didn't help, but to use that single experience as an excuse to condemn not only the procedure itself but the whole of modern medicine is utterly ridiculous.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Today, 12:32 AM	#233
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,755	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Honestly, I'm not sure, and I'm not about to go back through three years of podcasts, entertaining and informative though they are, to verify it. I'm reporting from memory and may get specific details wrong - the main point is that any "mind over matter" effects claimed for the placebo effect are in fact little more than uncontrolled variables. Are you thinking of the 1955 Beecher “powerful placebo” paper? Quote: In 1955, Henry K. Beecher published the classic work entitled "The Powerful Placebo." Since that time, 40 years ago, the placebo effect has been considered a scientific fact. Beecher was the first scientist to quantify the placebo effect. He claimed that in 15 trials with different diseases, 35% of 1082 patients were satisfactorily relieved by a placebo alone. This publication is still the most frequently cited placebo reference. Recently Beecher's article was reanalyzed with surprising results: In contrast to his claim, no evidence was found of any placebo effect in any of the studies cited by him. There were many other factors that could account for the reported improvements in patients in these trials, but most likely there was no placebo effect whatsoever. G S Kienle, H Kiene (1997). The powerful placebo effect: fact or fiction? J Clin Epidemiol 50(12):1311-8.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

Today, 12:33 AM	#234
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by Mojo Are you thinking of the 1955 Beecher “powerful placebo” paper? G S Kienle, H Kiene (1997). The powerful placebo effect: fact or fiction? J Clin Epidemiol 50(12):1311-8. So the placebo effect is a placebo?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

Today, 12:36 AM	#235
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by Pixel42 https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatm...p-replacement/ Hip replacement surgery has helped millions of people. It sucks if you're one of the few it didn't help, but to use that single experience as an excuse to condemn not only the procedure itself but the whole of modern medicine is utterly ridiculous. Totally not related but my very first orthopaedic consultant was John Charnley, considered the founder of modern hip replacement. He was a character to say the least.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you