Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus - Page 13

theprestige · 7th July 2020, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

To be honest, I don't see how things would be different under another system. I mean, in a socialist or communist system, even though there's little to no profit motive, won't there still be incentive to keep the economy going?

There'd also be a lot of incentive to preserve the labor force. The economy can be recovered as long as you have the work force to recover it. If you sacrifice the workers to save the economy, though, you'll probably lose the economy anyway. I think I may have been too uncharitable towards the Soviet Union, on this point.

Also, are you talking about theoretical communism, or applied communism? Because under applied communism, there's still plenty of profit motive. It just finds different outlets and expressions. Kind of like how applied Prohibition just meant that liquor was imported, distributed and consumed somewhat differently than when it was legal.

theprestige · 7th July 2020, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Ahem.

(hilight mine)

You are right that talking about the environment is off topic. But theprestige isn't the one who derailed the thread with it, Madar is. I suggest you point your complaints in that direction.

Actually I had mentioned the environment previously, as part of my counter-argument that even when another system like communism is able to better mitigate a pandemic, it does so by means of horrific trade-offs elsewhere, e.g., environmental conservation. Which makes capitalism the better choice, even if its beneficiaries do spread disease.

It's also part of my counter-argument to dann's implication that capitalism is notably callous towards human life. He's giving us the example of the spread of disease under the capitalist system, but the truth is that the only other modern competitor to capitalism has a much worse track record on valuing human life, pretty much across the board.

Anyway, what was originally supposed to be an indictment of capitalism has been reduced to a mere truism: We have a capitalist system, and we have a disease that's spreading to some extent within the system. There is no greater significance to these observations, other than that they have been observed.

dann's been at great pains in recent posts to remind us that he is simply reporting these observations, and any attempt to interpret them in a larger context, or compare them to other scenarios, is irrelevant. At this point the most interesting thing he has to say about what's happening is that it is, in fact, happening.

Myriad · 7th July 2020, 07:07 PM

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

xjx388 · 7th July 2020, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

The Earth and it’s beneficiaries, humans, are the spreaders of global misery.

theprestige · 7th July 2020, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

It's not often that I see such an apt analogy.

You have accidentally grasped the essence of the problem.

Compared to literally every other planet we've been able to examine, Earth is a great planet to live on. Not perfect (for some definitions of perfect), but it's pretty damn good. One G of gravity at the surface. Breathable atmosphere. Adequate radiation shielding. Substantial biomass and a robust ecosystem. Vast mineral deposits. Plentiful liquid water, which is something we like. Etc. Sure, it's got the occasional cataclysm, but so what?

You'd rather live on an airless moon in the seething radiation hell of Jovian space? The runaway pressure cooker of the Venusian greenhouse (or floating precariously in the clouds above its monstrous surface)? The methane lakes of Titan? The dark side of Mercury? Mars is tectonically inactive, but is it really an upgrade to move from the Santa Clara Valley to the Mariner Valley, to get away from the earthquakes? Hell, even Death Valley is a better place to live, by far, than anywhere on Mars!

Every planet we know of is objectively worse to live on than Earth. Which makes "terrible" a comparatively terrible descriptor for living on Earth.

Not only that, but some of the things that you say make Earth terrible may actually be acceptable trade-offs for having such a great planet to live on. For example, one of the things that makes Earth more survivable for us than some of the other planets in the solar system is the radiation shielding provided by its magnetic field. The magnetic field is generated by the rotating molten iron core of the planet. And that rotating core in turn also makes the planet tectonically active, resulting in the occasional cataclysm. Take away the rotating core, and you get rid of the cataclysms. You also get rid of the radiation shield, the atmosphere, and the liquid water. And the ecosystem. You get another Mars. We already have a Mars, and it really is a terrible planet to live on.

(I could go on. In spite of all the millions dead from cataclysms, Earth's human population keeps on growing. Seven billion living humans say it can't be that terrible.)

Jerrymander · 7th July 2020, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

They would argue that the system is artificial and constructed unlike the laws of nature. That capitalism didn't always exist and therefore can be replaced.

theprestige · 7th July 2020, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

They would argue that the system is artificial and constructed unlike the laws of nature. That capitalism didn't always exist and therefore can be replaced.

... He said, not realizing his prediction had been falsified before he even made it.

Roboramma · 7th July 2020, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You have accidentally grasped the essence of the problem.

I don't think there was anything accidental about it. The rest of your post is on point, but just basically explain the analogy as Myriad meant it.

I say this only because you seem to have thought he meant the opposite.

theprestige · 7th July 2020, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

I don't think there was anything accidental about it. The rest of your post is on point, but just basically explain the analogy as Myriad meant it.

I say this only because you seem to have thought he meant the opposite.

That... Seems very reasonable.

Sorry, Myriad!

And congrats for having a good analogy!

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

Thank you, that is a pretty great analogy.

Will go right over his head, mind you.

dann · 8th July 2020, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

To be honest, I don't see how things would be different under another system. I mean, in a socialist or communist system, even though there's little to no profit motive, won't there still be incentive to keep the economy going?

That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going."
Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously!
Do they need to worry about interest rates? No.
Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No.
Do they need to worry about paying rent? No.

That is part of what makes the Cuban lockdown as effective as it has been. Another part is that the population is pretty well-educated - in particular about preventive health care - so you don't find as many anti-vaxxer crazies as in the USA, which means that herd immunity for all diseases for which there are effective vaccines is one of the highest in the world.

And libertarian mask deniers are an incredibly small minority - if they even exist, which I doubt.
Deaths per million
USA: 405
Cuba: 8

Roboramma · 8th July 2020, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I think you're all sorts of wrong.

/derail.

Wouldn't be the first time.

As I said, I think it would take a lot of work for us to have this conversation, and as you and others say this probably isn't the place. Thanks for your responses anyway.

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by dann

That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going."
Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously!
Do they need to worry about interest rates? No.
Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No.
Do they need to worry about paying rent? No.

What makes you think a person living in a communist system doesn't have to worry about those? Are you again only considering a single form of that system?

I guess the more fundamental question is: what is the EXACT system you think would do better than a generic "capitalist" one, and how?

Jerrymander · 8th July 2020, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by dann

That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going."
Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously!
Do they need to worry about interest rates? No.
Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No.
Do they need to worry about paying rent? No.

That is part of what makes the Cuban lockdown as effective as it has been. Another part is that the population is pretty well-educated - in particular about preventive health care - so you don't find as many anti-vaxxer crazies as in the USA, which means that herd immunity for all diseases for which there are effective vaccines is one of the highest in the world.

And libertarian mask deniers are an incredibly small minority - if they even exist, which I doubt.
Deaths per million
USA: 405
Cuba: 8

Japan, South Korea and Germany were effective and last time I checked, they are capitalist.

Also "Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No." Um, if you are a small business owner, yeah you do. Would people not need to make money in a socialist/communist system?

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 04:22 AM

They're probably No True Capitalists.

dann · 8th July 2020, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

Let's have a little fantasy where we all agree that Capitalism is responsible for the spread of Coronavirus. OK, now what?

When people argue that (and this is just an example, not a cause for a derail) systemic racism is the cause of poverty, police brutality, etc etc, those people usually have a solution in mind. The point of the argument is to advocate for that solution. Or maybe they don't have a firm solution in mind but they want to have a discussion about possible solutions.

People who argue that are wrong. And I think that they don't even exist outside of your fairy tale. However, if they argue that racism is the reason why blacks and Latinos in the USA are particularly poor and prone to become victims of police brutality or die from Covid-19, they would be right.

You, on the other hand, were never interested in finding a solution to the pandemic. All you have been whining about from the start of this thread was "flaws in the human psyche," and you have used the word humans as an excuse for the virus running rampant in the USA instead of trying to look into the question that would arise immediately if you took your own 'explanation' seriously: What makes your "basic flaws in the human psyche" so much more extreme in the USA than in the rest of the world? Why do we see "greed, selfishness, stupidity and arrogance" so much more widespread in the USA than almost anywhere else? And why does your list of "obedience to authority" cultures mention only "China, Cuba, South Korea, etc", but not Australia, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Norway and many, many others?

You seem to find so much comfort in your outlandish idea that the USA consists of non-conformist rebels that it makes you blind to the fact that the populace of those other countries haven't been instilled with "an obedience to authority" and aren't ruled by authoritarian governments "that can enforce shutdowns." Instead, they have listened to sensible experts, understood what they were talking about and consequently followed their advice they agreed with them.

It seems impossible for you to grasp the concept that American mask deniers are worshipping an authoritarian ruler, who is not only authoritarian but also extremely stupid and ignorant. It requires an extraordinary amount of "obedience to authority" to bow down to Trump's 'advice.' To agree with the restrictions put in place to fight the pandemic in Cuba, China or South Korea doesn't require more than a modicum of common sense: 'OK, I get it. In order to quench the spread of the virus, we need to self-isolate for a period of time until it has died out from a lack of options to be transmitted from person to person. That makes sense!'

That attitude has absolutely nothing to do with authoritarian thinking. There is actually no attitude more authoritarian than the one exhibited by Trump-adoring Republicans. The one thing you can't accuse them of is an abundance of common sense:

Quote:

The problem is much more essential than an economic system; the problem is the basic flaws in the human psyche: greed, selfishness, stupidity, arrogance, pride, etc. It's not easy to find a solution to something that essentially has no solution. Those human flaws are responsible for the spread of Covid-19. Those flaws would be present in any economic system. Some cultures, like China, Cuba, South Korea, etc instill an obedience to authority and their governments have more power over the people as a result. In every country with a compliant populace and a government that can enforce shutdowns, they've gotten control over the virus.

I got ahead of myself on this one, so no need to comment any further on it.

Quote:

The US, for better or worse (and make no mistake, it's worse in the context of a pandemic), is not such a country. We don't have strong central leadership either at the Federal or State level and our people are a bit rebellious and definitely non-compliant. It's too difficult to "lock down" the American people for an extended timeframe, plain and simple.

It's worse in so many other contexts than in that of a pandemic. Health care in general, poverty and racism, but I don't need to go on about this since this is a thread about the pandemic. You not only have "strong central leadership" in the USA, you have "strong central leadership" in the individual states as well, which makes the governors' pandemic response in places like Texas or Florida catastrophic. They were actually able to counteract sensible responses at a local level, for instance when mayors tried to make masks mandatory.

I assume that your idea of lack of "strong central leadership" is your libertarian attempt to make it seem as if Americans are just more free and decentralized than the rest of the world when the exact opposite is true: The USA is an extremely authoritarian society, and the only rebellions that seem to be successful in the land of the allegedly free are the ones that are directed against science and common sense, i.e. things that we are much more likely to appreciate and respect in the rest of the world.
But in addition to the stupidity and authoritarian thinking in the USA, you would like to add two more things that you think contribute to spreading the virus:

Quote:

I think there are two other big factors in the spread of Covid-19: Population density and the ease of international travel. Look at New York and New Jersey -the virus has spread like wildfire through the dense urban areas but not as much through the more rural areas. And NYC (which is the focus of both the NY and NJ outbreaks) is THE major hub for international travel.

Population density, yes, obviously: When you don't meet many people, in particular indoors, you are less likely to transmit the infection, and you are likely to meet far fewer people in rural areas than in the city. So in general, cities tend to be the first areas where a country notices a new virus spreading. And this tendency is also due to spreading from country to country: Big cities with international airports are where you will see it first, NYC, London, Munich, Copenhagen. (That planes are also the ideal setting for super-spreader events contributes to this: One of the latest flare ups in Denmark was on a plane from Islamabad to Copenhagen - which testing and contact tracing made it fairly easy to put down again fast.)

However, what you fail to notice is that neither population density nor international travel makes it particularly difficult to stop the spread of the virus or to hammer it down. What does make it difficult is the immediate response to the knowledge of the pandemic: 'But we can't do anything that may harm business!' - not even the fairly insignificant percentage of that business that is made up of the tourism industry.

That is what allowed the virus to spread all over the world in the first place. Clamping down hard on that immediately would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives - and billions of dollars as well, but business calculations and an effective pandemic response are difficult to reconcile - as you have witnessed in Texas for a little more than a month by now.
And cramped living quarters, public transportation and working conditions in big cities aren't a law of nature. They are a law of capitalism. But they are not altogether unavoidable in capitalism. Capitalism just does its utmost to prevent them or delay them until it is too late.

Quote:

None of these things has much to do with Capitalism, specifically. It's not like a non-Capitalist country would not have dense urban areas and international travel. And Capitalist countries can have strong governments and compliant people.

Both of those things have everything to do with capitalism. "Dense urban areas and international travel" are only associated with Covid-19 because the right measures against spreading the virus weren't taken. And if you weren't in denial about it, you would already be aware that the many "dense urban areas and international travel" where the virus has been hammered down are doing just fine, and they would have done even better if the many objections from business owners hadn't delayed the necessary precautions.

Quote:

So no, dann . . . your complaints are noted but rather useless. Your complaints about Capitalism sound very much like someone complaining about mountains causing deserts -ok, but so what? What are you going to do about it? Level the mountains? Probably not, right? So what's the point of arguing about it?

I never expected you to stop denying reality. The mountain of your denial is as indestructible as your authoritarian leader's.

dann · 8th July 2020, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Japan, South Korea and Germany were effective and last time I checked, they are capitalist.

Yes, they were. Japan and Cuba have had approximately the same death toll per million and they still do: 8. What is your point? I have shown how capitalism has spread the virus in other parts of the world. If you would like to discuss why it hasn't in Japan, feel free to do so.

Quote:

Also "Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No." Um, if you are a small business owner, yeah you do. Would people not need to make money in a socialist/communist system?

No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus.

Jerrymander · 8th July 2020, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by dann

No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus.

Then you're just pontificating utopianism.

dann · 8th July 2020, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

"So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?"

"Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."

An extremely childish attempt at an analogy since you are in denial about the reason why "millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." It is not surprising that so many of the other posters love your post.
Earthquakes and volcanoes are still almost impossible to control. Some floods aren't. And hurricanes appear to be, at least to some extent, on the increase due to anthropogenic global warming.
The deaths from those more or less natural disasters, however, are a different thing and often far from unavoidable. So no, there is nothing wrong with the planet, there is everything wrong with the capitalist state of the USA: New Orleans Hurricane Katrina Levee Failures.

There is also no reason to look for another planet just because SARS-CoV-2 is raging. That you and your admirers seem to think so is deplorable.

Do I need to tell you about earthquake-resistant buildings, too?! The ones mentioned in my link are probably all built by capitalist companies, but the invention of earthquake resistant buildings is ancient. So are many quarantine measures against the spread of viruses, by the way.
And much like the hurricane Katrina deaths, deaths in earthquake have less to do with nature than with capitalism. You would know that if you actually cared.

Preventing viral pandemics by ignoring and denying them is probably a capitalist invention, however, but I can't say for sure. It is possible that capitalism's only contribution is to have popularized the idea. I have already referred to Henrik Ibsen's play from 1882, An Enemy of the People, in which his protagonist warns his community against the risk of an epidemic, and it was probably not a scenario that Ibsen hadn't already heard about in another context.

dann · 8th July 2020, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Then you're just pontificating utopianism.

No, I am trying to make you stop derailing the thread.

dann · 8th July 2020, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Thank you, that is a pretty great analogy.

Will go right over his head, mind you.

The obvious flaws of the 'analogy' did go right over your head, didn't they?

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by dann

No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus.

Would people in such a moneyless system be allowed to travel to ski resorts?

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by dann

An extremely childish attempt at an analogy since you are in denial about the reason why "millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." It is not surprising that so many of the other posters love your post.
Earthquakes and volcanoes are still almost impossible to control. Some floods aren't. And hurricanes appear to be, at least to some extent, on the increase due to anthropogenic global warming.
The deaths from those more or less natural disasters, however, are a different thing and often far from unavoidable.

And just as expected, you completely miss the point of the analogy. And your further comments show that you don't even know what analogies are for.

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

The Earth and it’s beneficiaries, humans, are the spreaders of global misery.

As always, the only obvious solution to the pandemic according to your description of its causes would be to have people replaced by aliens.

JoeMorgue · 8th July 2020, 06:02 AM

This is just the "I steal music and software but it's okay" mentality blown up to encompass all of society.

In defiance of all human nature nobody works and everyone just magically has enough of everything and no scenarios ever happen where 2 people want something there is only 1 one of. People will do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs just because they want to.

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Would people in such a moneyless system be allowed to travel to ski resorts?

You would have to ask them, wouldn't you?
A better question would have been, 'Would ski resorts in such a moneyless system stay open when a virus was on the loose?'
We already know how capitalism answers that question, don't we?

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by dann

You would have to ask them, wouldn't you?

I'm asking YOU whether people in a moneyless system of YOUR design would be allowed to travel abroad. it's a very simple question.

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is just the "I steal music and software but it's okay" mentality blown up to encompass all of society.

In defiance of all human nature nobody works and everyone just magically has enough of everything and no scenarios ever happen where 2 people want something there is only 1 one of. People do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs.

What does the virus have to do with your derailing comment?
Nothing, right?!

It speaks volumes that you appear to be incapable of coming up with a solution to your imaginary problem where nobody spends eight hours a day, five days a week, doing "hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs."

But I do appreciate your apparent denial of how things are done in capitalism where people do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs for much for a much lower level of compensation than people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs.
That is exactly what human nature requires, isn't it?

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I'm asking YOU whether people in a moneyless system of YOUR design would be allowed to travel abroad. it's a very simple question.

I am not a system designer. And I am telling you that I am not really interested in your attempts to derail this thread. That is a very simple message, isn't it?

JoeMorgue · 8th July 2020, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by dann

I am not a system designer. And I am telling you that I am not really interested in your attempts to derail this thread. That is a very simple message, isn't it?

You must win a lot more debates when "Any flaw in my plan" is a derail.

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

And just as expected, you completely miss the point of the analogy. And your further comments show that you don't even know what analogies are for.

Sorry that I ruined your childish glee at a childish analogy.

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You must win a lot more debates when "Any flaw in my plan" is a derail.

You must win a lot of debates when you have to come up with imaginary plans to do so.

JoeMorgue · 8th July 2020, 06:20 AM

"Then a genie pops out of a bottle and gives everyone money."
"There are no genies..."
"THE EXISTENCE OF GENIES IS A DERAIL! DERAIL I SAY!"

dann · 8th July 2020, 06:23 AM

Congratulations!
Strawman (and a very childish one) and derail. It can't get much better than that.

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by dann

I am not a system designer.

My question goes to the very core of this thread and of your claim. Your entire argument is that the incentives unique to capitalism are making it a bad system that is spreading covid-19. I'm arguing that all other systems have the same incentives and therefore would not have stopped the spread of the virus.

Your problem is that the only system you could possibly come up with to avoid that is a hypothetical one that would never work in real life anyway, hence my earlier comments about reality screwing up your claim.

It's just unfortunate that you refuse to look at this problem in the face. You could stand to learn something important.

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Sorry that I ruined your childish glee at a childish analogy.

You ruined nothing. Your inability or unwillingness to understand the analogy does not magically make it unsuitable for the situation.

Maybe if you ask nicely, Myriad can explain it to you.

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Congratulations!
Strawman (and a very childish one) and derail. It can't get much better than that.

That wasn't a strawman, nor a derail. You can't strawman your own argument. That makes no sense.

You either have no idea what arguments are and how they work, or you pretend to because the alternative would be to have to engage these arguments and risk having to admit that your claim is bonkers.

JoeMorgue · 8th July 2020, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Congratulations!
Strawman (and a very childish one) and derail. It can't get much better than that.

Sorry I didn't put my best effort into since I know under your system I'm not going to be paid more for better work.

Belz... · 8th July 2020, 06:41 AM

Mader Levap · 8th July 2020, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The point is that communism attempted to abolish greed as a virtue, and ended up being even worse

In practice, that cure was even worse than disease, yes. But one can wonder why and how this cure was conceived in first place.

Originally Posted by theprestige

than the system that (in your opinion) celebrated it.

I think it can be objectively determined.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Comparing capitalism to other systems that have been tried shows pretty clearly that regulating greed has better outcomes than abolishing greed, for worker safety, public health, and environmental protection.

Problem is that I see a lot of certain people claiming that removing such regulation would create even better outcome and blaming shortcomings of capitalism and free market on the very things that make it tolerable.
I consider these people delusional on level of commies.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Also, I think you are seeing a defense of capitalism where there is only a rebuttal of dann's piss-poor anti-capitalism arguments. You can think capitalism is horrible and still think that dann is doing a terrible job of attacking it here. In my opinion, you should.

I have no argument here. Dann is far-left nutjob.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Hell, in my opinion, capitalism *is* horrible. It's about the worst economic system that has ever been tried...
... If you know what I mean.

That's copout.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

But I'm sure you'll try to find a way to blame capitalism for the sins of the Chinese Communist Party.

China is communism in name only. It is pretty much only reason why it didn't share fate of Soviet Union.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Sorry I didn't put my best effort into since I know under your system I'm not going to be paid more for better work.

What about system where you do crap work and get paid very handsomely for it anyway? Or system where your work efficiency rises, but your wage does not? >.>

7th July 2020, 07:07 PM	#483
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 17,615	"Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos."
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

7th July 2020, 07:11 PM	#484
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,303	Originally Posted by Myriad "Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." The Earth and it’s beneficiaries, humans, are the spreaders of global misery.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,303	__________________ Hello.

7th July 2020, 07:27 PM	#485
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,534	Originally Posted by Myriad "Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." It's not often that I see such an apt analogy. You have accidentally grasped the essence of the problem. Compared to literally every other planet we've been able to examine, Earth is a great planet to live on. Not perfect (for some definitions of perfect), but it's pretty damn good. One G of gravity at the surface. Breathable atmosphere. Adequate radiation shielding. Substantial biomass and a robust ecosystem. Vast mineral deposits. Plentiful liquid water, which is something we like. Etc. Sure, it's got the occasional cataclysm, but so what? You'd rather live on an airless moon in the seething radiation hell of Jovian space? The runaway pressure cooker of the Venusian greenhouse (or floating precariously in the clouds above its monstrous surface)? The methane lakes of Titan? The dark side of Mercury? Mars is tectonically inactive, but is it really an upgrade to move from the Santa Clara Valley to the Mariner Valley, to get away from the earthquakes? Hell, even Death Valley is a better place to live, by far, than anywhere on Mars! Every planet we know of is objectively worse to live on than Earth. Which makes "terrible" a comparatively terrible descriptor for living on Earth. Not only that, but some of the things that you say make Earth terrible may actually be acceptable trade-offs for having such a great planet to live on. For example, one of the things that makes Earth more survivable for us than some of the other planets in the solar system is the radiation shielding provided by its magnetic field. The magnetic field is generated by the rotating molten iron core of the planet. And that rotating core in turn also makes the planet tectonically active, resulting in the occasional cataclysm. Take away the rotating core, and you get rid of the cataclysms. You also get rid of the radiation shield, the atmosphere, and the liquid water. And the ecosystem. You get another Mars. We already have a Mars, and it really is a terrible planet to live on. (I could go on. In spite of all the millions dead from cataclysms, Earth's human population keeps on growing. Seven billion living humans say it can't be that terrible.)
	Last edited by theprestige; 7th July 2020 at 07:28 PM.

7th July 2020, 07:40 PM	#486
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by Myriad "Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." They would argue that the system is artificial and constructed unlike the laws of nature. That capitalism didn't always exist and therefore can be replaced.
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

7th July 2020, 09:07 PM	#488
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,459	Originally Posted by theprestige You have accidentally grasped the essence of the problem. I don't think there was anything accidental about it. The rest of your post is on point, but just basically explain the analogy as Myriad meant it. I say this only because you seem to have thought he meant the opposite.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

7th July 2020, 06:40 PM	#481
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,534	Originally Posted by Jerrymander To be honest, I don't see how things would be different under another system. I mean, in a socialist or communist system, even though there's little to no profit motive, won't there still be incentive to keep the economy going? There'd also be a lot of incentive to preserve the labor force. The economy can be recovered as long as you have the work force to recover it. If you sacrifice the workers to save the economy, though, you'll probably lose the economy anyway. I think I may have been too uncharitable towards the Soviet Union, on this point. Also, are you talking about theoretical communism, or applied communism? Because under applied communism, there's still plenty of profit motive. It just finds different outlets and expressions. Kind of like how applied Prohibition just meant that liquor was imported, distributed and consumed somewhat differently than when it was legal.

7th July 2020, 06:51 PM	#482
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,534	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Ahem. (hilight mine) You are right that talking about the environment is off topic. But theprestige isn't the one who derailed the thread with it, Madar is. I suggest you point your complaints in that direction. Actually I had mentioned the environment previously, as part of my counter-argument that even when another system like communism is able to better mitigate a pandemic, it does so by means of horrific trade-offs elsewhere, e.g., environmental conservation. Which makes capitalism the better choice, even if its beneficiaries do spread disease. It's also part of my counter-argument to dann's implication that capitalism is notably callous towards human life. He's giving us the example of the spread of disease under the capitalist system, but the truth is that the only other modern competitor to capitalism has a much worse track record on valuing human life, pretty much across the board. Anyway, what was originally supposed to be an indictment of capitalism has been reduced to a mere truism: We have a capitalist system, and we have a disease that's spreading to some extent within the system. There is no greater significance to these observations, other than that they have been observed. dann's been at great pains in recent posts to remind us that he is simply reporting these observations, and any attempt to interpret them in a larger context, or compare them to other scenarios, is irrelevant. At this point the most interesting thing he has to say about what's happening is that it is, in fact, happening.

7th July 2020, 07:51 PM	#487
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,534	Originally Posted by Jerrymander They would argue that the system is artificial and constructed unlike the laws of nature. That capitalism didn't always exist and therefore can be replaced. ... He said, not realizing his prediction had been falsified before he even made it.

7th July 2020, 09:33 PM	#489
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,534	Originally Posted by Roboramma I don't think there was anything accidental about it. The rest of your post is on point, but just basically explain the analogy as Myriad meant it. I say this only because you seem to have thought he meant the opposite. That... Seems very reasonable. Sorry, Myriad! And congrats for having a good analogy!

8th July 2020, 02:28 AM	#490
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by Myriad "Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." Thank you, that is a pretty great analogy. Will go right over his head, mind you.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

8th July 2020, 03:11 AM	#491
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Jerrymander To be honest, I don't see how things would be different under another system. I mean, in a socialist or communist system, even though there's little to no profit motive, won't there still be incentive to keep the economy going? That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going." Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously! Do they need to worry about interest rates? No. Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No. Do they need to worry about paying rent? No. That is part of what makes the Cuban lockdown as effective as it has been. Another part is that the population is pretty well-educated - in particular about preventive health care - so you don't find as many anti-vaxxer crazies as in the USA, which means that herd immunity for all diseases for which there are effective vaccines is one of the highest in the world. And libertarian mask deniers are an incredibly small minority - if they even exist, which I doubt. Deaths per million USA: 405 Cuba: 8
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 03:35 AM	#492
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,459	Originally Posted by 3point14 I think you're all sorts of wrong. /derail. Wouldn't be the first time. As I said, I think it would take a lot of work for us to have this conversation, and as you and others say this probably isn't the place. Thanks for your responses anyway.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

8th July 2020, 04:03 AM	#493
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by dann That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going." Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously! Do they need to worry about interest rates? No. Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No. Do they need to worry about paying rent? No. What makes you think a person living in a communist system doesn't have to worry about those? Are you again only considering a single form of that system? I guess the more fundamental question is: what is the EXACT system you think would do better than a generic "capitalist" one, and how?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 8th July 2020 at 04:04 AM.

8th July 2020, 04:21 AM	#494
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by dann That depends on what you mean with the words "keep the economy going." Do people still need food, water and electricity? Yes, obviously! Do they need to worry about interest rates? No. Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No. Do they need to worry about paying rent? No. That is part of what makes the Cuban lockdown as effective as it has been. Another part is that the population is pretty well-educated - in particular about preventive health care - so you don't find as many anti-vaxxer crazies as in the USA, which means that herd immunity for all diseases for which there are effective vaccines is one of the highest in the world. And libertarian mask deniers are an incredibly small minority - if they even exist, which I doubt. Deaths per million USA: 405 Cuba: 8 Japan, South Korea and Germany were effective and last time I checked, they are capitalist. Also "Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No." Um, if you are a small business owner, yeah you do. Would people not need to make money in a socialist/communist system?
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Last edited by Jerrymander; 8th July 2020 at 04:27 AM.

8th July 2020, 04:22 AM	#495
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	They're probably No True Capitalists.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

8th July 2020, 04:56 AM	#496
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by xjx388 Let's have a little fantasy where we all agree that Capitalism is responsible for the spread of Coronavirus. OK, now what? When people argue that (and this is just an example, not a cause for a derail) systemic racism is the cause of poverty, police brutality, etc etc, those people usually have a solution in mind. The point of the argument is to advocate for that solution. Or maybe they don't have a firm solution in mind but they want to have a discussion about possible solutions. People who argue that are wrong. And I think that they don't even exist outside of your fairy tale. However, if they argue that racism is the reason why blacks and Latinos in the USA are particularly poor and prone to become victims of police brutality or die from Covid-19, they would be right. You, on the other hand, were never interested in finding a solution to the pandemic. All you have been whining about from the start of this thread was "flaws in the human psyche," and you have used the word humans as an excuse for the virus running rampant in the USA instead of trying to look into the question that would arise immediately if you took your own 'explanation' seriously: What makes your "basic flaws in the human psyche" so much more extreme in the USA than in the rest of the world? Why do we see "greed, selfishness, stupidity and arrogance" so much more widespread in the USA than almost anywhere else? And why does your list of "obedience to authority" cultures mention only "China, Cuba, South Korea, etc", but not Australia, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Norway and many, many others? You seem to find so much comfort in your outlandish idea that the USA consists of non-conformist rebels that it makes you blind to the fact that the populace of those other countries haven't been instilled with "an obedience to authority" and aren't ruled by authoritarian governments "that can enforce shutdowns." Instead, they have listened to sensible experts, understood what they were talking about and consequently followed their advice they agreed with them. It seems impossible for you to grasp the concept that American mask deniers are worshipping an authoritarian ruler, who is not only authoritarian but also extremely stupid and ignorant. It requires an extraordinary amount of "obedience to authority" to bow down to Trump's 'advice.' To agree with the restrictions put in place to fight the pandemic in Cuba, China or South Korea doesn't require more than a modicum of common sense: 'OK, I get it. In order to quench the spread of the virus, we need to self-isolate for a period of time until it has died out from a lack of options to be transmitted from person to person. That makes sense!' That attitude has absolutely nothing to do with authoritarian thinking. There is actually no attitude more authoritarian than the one exhibited by Trump-adoring Republicans. The one thing you can't accuse them of is an abundance of common sense: Quote: The problem is much more essential than an economic system; the problem is the basic flaws in the human psyche: greed, selfishness, stupidity, arrogance, pride, etc. It's not easy to find a solution to something that essentially has no solution. Those human flaws are responsible for the spread of Covid-19. Those flaws would be present in any economic system. Some cultures, like China, Cuba, South Korea, etc instill an obedience to authority and their governments have more power over the people as a result. In every country with a compliant populace and a government that can enforce shutdowns, they've gotten control over the virus. I got ahead of myself on this one, so no need to comment any further on it. Quote: The US, for better or worse (and make no mistake, it's worse in the context of a pandemic), is not such a country. We don't have strong central leadership either at the Federal or State level and our people are a bit rebellious and definitely non-compliant. It's too difficult to "lock down" the American people for an extended timeframe, plain and simple. It's worse in so many other contexts than in that of a pandemic. Health care in general, poverty and racism, but I don't need to go on about this since this is a thread about the pandemic. You not only have "strong central leadership" in the USA, you have "strong central leadership" in the individual states as well, which makes the governors' pandemic response in places like Texas or Florida catastrophic. They were actually able to counteract sensible responses at a local level, for instance when mayors tried to make masks mandatory. I assume that your idea of lack of "strong central leadership" is your libertarian attempt to make it seem as if Americans are just more free and decentralized than the rest of the world when the exact opposite is true: The USA is an extremely authoritarian society, and the only rebellions that seem to be successful in the land of the allegedly free are the ones that are directed against science and common sense, i.e. things that we are much more likely to appreciate and respect in the rest of the world. But in addition to the stupidity and authoritarian thinking in the USA, you would like to add two more things that you think contribute to spreading the virus: Quote: I think there are two other big factors in the spread of Covid-19: Population density and the ease of international travel. Look at New York and New Jersey -the virus has spread like wildfire through the dense urban areas but not as much through the more rural areas. And NYC (which is the focus of both the NY and NJ outbreaks) is THE major hub for international travel. Population density, yes, obviously: When you don't meet many people, in particular indoors, you are less likely to transmit the infection, and you are likely to meet far fewer people in rural areas than in the city. So in general, cities tend to be the first areas where a country notices a new virus spreading. And this tendency is also due to spreading from country to country: Big cities with international airports are where you will see it first, NYC, London, Munich, Copenhagen. (That planes are also the ideal setting for super-spreader events contributes to this: One of the latest flare ups in Denmark was on a plane from Islamabad to Copenhagen - which testing and contact tracing made it fairly easy to put down again fast.) However, what you fail to notice is that neither population density nor international travel makes it particularly difficult to stop the spread of the virus or to hammer it down. What does make it difficult is the immediate response to the knowledge of the pandemic: 'But we can't do anything that may harm business!' - not even the fairly insignificant percentage of that business that is made up of the tourism industry. That is what allowed the virus to spread all over the world in the first place. Clamping down hard on that immediately would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives - and billions of dollars as well, but business calculations and an effective pandemic response are difficult to reconcile - as you have witnessed in Texas for a little more than a month by now. And cramped living quarters, public transportation and working conditions in big cities aren't a law of nature. They are a law of capitalism. But they are not altogether unavoidable in capitalism. Capitalism just does its utmost to prevent them or delay them until it is too late. Quote: None of these things has much to do with Capitalism, specifically. It's not like a non-Capitalist country would not have dense urban areas and international travel. And Capitalist countries can have strong governments and compliant people. Both of those things have everything to do with capitalism. "Dense urban areas and international travel" are only associated with Covid-19 because the right measures against spreading the virus weren't taken. And if you weren't in denial about it, you would already be aware that the many "dense urban areas and international travel" where the virus has been hammered down are doing just fine, and they would have done even better if the many objections from business owners hadn't delayed the necessary precautions. Quote: So no, dann . . . your complaints are noted but rather useless. Your complaints about Capitalism sound very much like someone complaining about mountains causing deserts -ok, but so what? What are you going to do about it? Level the mountains? Probably not, right? So what's the point of arguing about it? I never expected you to stop denying reality. The mountain of your denial is as indestructible as your authoritarian leader's.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 05:08 AM	#497
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Japan, South Korea and Germany were effective and last time I checked, they are capitalist. Yes, they were. Japan and Cuba have had approximately the same death toll per million and they still do: 8. What is your point? I have shown how capitalism has spread the virus in other parts of the world. If you would like to discuss why it hasn't in Japan, feel free to do so. Quote: Also "Do they need to worry about the rate of profit? No." Um, if you are a small business owner, yeah you do. Would people not need to make money in a socialist/communist system? No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 05:35 AM	#498
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by dann No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus. Then you're just pontificating utopianism.
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

8th July 2020, 05:56 AM	#499
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Myriad "Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." "So? Do you know a better planet to live on instead?" "Strawman! You just don't want to acknowledge my point that Earth is a terrible planet to live on. Obviously you're in favor of people dying from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." An extremely childish attempt at an analogy since you are in denial about the reason why "millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." It is not surprising that so many of the other posters love your post. Earthquakes and volcanoes are still almost impossible to control. Some floods aren't. And hurricanes appear to be, at least to some extent, on the increase due to anthropogenic global warming. The deaths from those more or less natural disasters, however, are a different thing and often far from unavoidable. So no, there is nothing wrong with the planet, there is everything wrong with the capitalist state of the USA: New Orleans Hurricane Katrina Levee Failures. There is also no reason to look for another planet just because SARS-CoV-2 is raging. That you and your admirers seem to think so is deplorable. Do I need to tell you about earthquake-resistant buildings, too?! The ones mentioned in my link are probably all built by capitalist companies, but the invention of earthquake resistant buildings is ancient. So are many quarantine measures against the spread of viruses, by the way. And much like the hurricane Katrina deaths, deaths in earthquake have less to do with nature than with capitalism. You would know that if you actually cared. Preventing viral pandemics by ignoring and denying them is probably a capitalist invention, however, but I can't say for sure. It is possible that capitalism's only contribution is to have popularized the idea. I have already referred to Henrik Ibsen's play from 1882, An Enemy of the People, in which his protagonist warns his community against the risk of an epidemic, and it was probably not a scenario that Ibsen hadn't already heard about in another context.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 05:57 AM	#500
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Then you're just pontificating utopianism. No, I am trying to make you stop derailing the thread.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 05:58 AM	#501
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Belz... Thank you, that is a pretty great analogy. Will go right over his head, mind you. The obvious flaws of the 'analogy' did go right over your head, didn't they?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 05:59 AM	#502
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by dann No. There would be no money in a communist system, which is one of the many reasons why the Soviet Union wasn't a communist society, but a discussion of this would derail the theme of this thread: How capitalism spreads the virus. Would people in such a moneyless system be allowed to travel to ski resorts?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

8th July 2020, 06:00 AM	#503
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by dann An extremely childish attempt at an analogy since you are in denial about the reason why "millions of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanos." It is not surprising that so many of the other posters love your post. Earthquakes and volcanoes are still almost impossible to control. Some floods aren't. And hurricanes appear to be, at least to some extent, on the increase due to anthropogenic global warming. The deaths from those more or less natural disasters, however, are a different thing and often far from unavoidable. And just as expected, you completely miss the point of the analogy. And your further comments show that you don't even know what analogies are for.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 8th July 2020 at 06:04 AM.

8th July 2020, 06:02 AM	#504
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by xjx388 The Earth and it’s beneficiaries, humans, are the spreaders of global misery. As always, the only obvious solution to the pandemic according to your description of its causes would be to have people replaced by aliens.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:02 AM	#505
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,394	This is just the "I steal music and software but it's okay" mentality blown up to encompass all of society. In defiance of all human nature nobody works and everyone just magically has enough of everything and no scenarios ever happen where 2 people want something there is only 1 one of. People will do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs just because they want to.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 8th July 2020 at 06:13 AM.

8th July 2020, 06:05 AM	#506
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Belz... Would people in such a moneyless system be allowed to travel to ski resorts? You would have to ask them, wouldn't you? A better question would have been, 'Would ski resorts in such a moneyless system stay open when a virus was on the loose?' We already know how capitalism answers that question, don't we?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:08 AM	#507
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by dann You would have to ask them, wouldn't you? I'm asking YOU whether people in a moneyless system of YOUR design would be allowed to travel abroad. it's a very simple question.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

8th July 2020, 06:13 AM	#508
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is just the "I steal music and software but it's okay" mentality blown up to encompass all of society. In defiance of all human nature nobody works and everyone just magically has enough of everything and no scenarios ever happen where 2 people want something there is only 1 one of. People do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs. What does the virus have to do with your derailing comment? Nothing, right?! It speaks volumes that you appear to be incapable of coming up with a solution to your imaginary problem where nobody spends eight hours a day, five days a week, doing "hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs." But I do appreciate your apparent denial of how things are done in capitalism where people do hard, disgusting, repetitive, demeaning jobs for the same level of compensation as people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs for much for a much lower level of compensation than people who do easy, fun, engaging jobs. That is exactly what human nature requires, isn't it?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:15 AM	#509
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Belz... I'm asking YOU whether people in a moneyless system of YOUR design would be allowed to travel abroad. it's a very simple question. I am not a system designer. And I am telling you that I am not really interested in your attempts to derail this thread. That is a very simple message, isn't it?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:17 AM	#510
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,394	Originally Posted by dann I am not a system designer. And I am telling you that I am not really interested in your attempts to derail this thread. That is a very simple message, isn't it? You must win a lot more debates when "Any flaw in my plan" is a derail.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

8th July 2020, 06:17 AM	#511
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by Belz... And just as expected, you completely miss the point of the analogy. And your further comments show that you don't even know what analogies are for. Sorry that I ruined your childish glee at a childish analogy.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:18 AM	#512
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue You must win a lot more debates when "Any flaw in my plan" is a derail. You must win a lot of debates when you have to come up with imaginary plans to do so.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:20 AM	#513
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,394	"Then a genie pops out of a bottle and gives everyone money." "There are no genies..." "THE EXISTENCE OF GENIES IS A DERAIL! DERAIL I SAY!"
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

8th July 2020, 06:23 AM	#514
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,889	Congratulations! Strawman (and a very childish one) and derail. It can't get much better than that.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2020, 06:26 AM	#515
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,980	Originally Posted by dann I am not a system designer. My question goes to the very core of this thread and of your claim. Your entire argument is that the incentives unique to capitalism are making it a bad system that is spreading covid-19. I'm arguing that all other systems have the same incentives and therefore would not have stopped the spread of the virus. Your problem is that the only system you could possibly come up with to avoid that is a hypothetical one that would never work in real life anyway, hence my earlier comments about reality screwing up your claim. It's just unfortunate that you refuse to look at this problem in the face. You could stand to learn something important.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward