Britain: A "scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide"

[Arcade22]

Quote:

This Wednesday is International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, which will see the start of 16 days of activism against gender violence globally. That same day also sees the publication in the UK of a groundbreaking report, Femicide Census, which, for the first time in Britain, analyses the shocking killings of women and girls, from the age of 14 to 100, at the hands of men, over a 10-year period, 2009-2018. The census defines “femicide’” as “men’s fatal violence against women”, and reveals that, on average, a woman was murdered every three days – a horrifying statistic, unchanged over the decade. This is in spite of greater public awareness, increased research, changes in the law and improved training for the police. “Patterns of male violence are persistent and enduring,” the report states.

The scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide in the UK is, in part, because each killing, is treated by various agencies as “an isolated incident” and “giving no cause for wider public concern”. As a result, the report says, information received from the police via, for instance, Freedom of Information requests, can be “sparse, inaccurate or incomplete”; coroners’ reports often fail to reference a history of male violence, while it is difficult to access official documents such as Independent Office for Police Conduct reports and domestic homicide reviews, all of which, along with media coverage, feed into the database of the census.

...


Of the 1,425 victims, almost half were killed by “a sharp instrument”, sometimes with additional brutal violence (classed as an “overkilling”). “The most common form of femicide is stabbing,” Ingala Smith says. “Yet most knife-crime strategies focus on teenagers and gang crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ut-uk-femicide

A damning report indeed. Personally i think the most shocking finding is that so many British households are keeping dangerous KNIVES in their homes that are so readily able to be used by men to kill women. Something must be done! Is it not about time the British people finally banned knives altogether?

What do the Brits have to say in defense of their woman murdering ways?

[ServiceSoon]

1,425 female victims with men perpetrators over a 10 year period (2009-2018)?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ut-uk-femicide

A damning report indeed. Personally i think the most shocking finding is that so many British households are keeping dangerous KNIVES in their homes that are so readily able to be used by men to kill women. Something must be done! Is it not about time the British people finally banned knives altogether?

What do the Brits have to say in defense of their woman murdering ways?

I’m assuming that you are trying to make a point with your sarcasm? What is the point you are trying to make?

[Darat]

For anyone with a serious interest the report is to be published 25/11

https://www.femicidecensus.org/10-year-report/

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Darat

I’m assuming that you are trying to make a point with your sarcasm? What is the point you are trying to make?

That something should be done to end men's violence against women in Britain? When some male hoodlums stab each-other politicians quickly get on the telly and start moaning about crime, yet now we have damning proof of the threat British men with easy access to knives represent to women.

As they say:

Quote:

Men who kill do so within a context of endemic sex discrimination in a society that normalises male predatory behaviour from an early age and is too eager to blame victims.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

That something should be done to end men's violence against women in Britain? When some male hoodlums stab each-other politicians quickly get on the telly and start moaning about crime, yet now we have damning proof of the threat British men with easy access to knives represent to women.

As they say:

If you read the Guardian article it will show that this is not a problem that is ignored, we’ve changed the laws, changed policing and so on.

Now according to this article about the not yet available report we haven’t succeeded in reducing the rate of killings. Which is of course very concerning but some of the changes have only been implemented over the last few years so perhaps haven’t had time to make an impact.

If the changes haven’t worked then hopefully this report will provide more information so we can try and reduce these killings.

The type of changes I am talking about are like the “Domestic Abuse Bill 2020”, that hopefully will address some of the issues and help reduce the number of women murdered.

[Thermal]

Ban....knives?

The article says a woman is killed by a man every three days. It does not say how often men kill men. Also one every three days, I expect?

Plus as an American, any demographic only being killed once every three days is the ******* Xmas miracle.

[TragicMonkey]

Is this one of those things where if you say there's a problem X, people get mad because you didn't mention problem Y and by not doing so they think you don't care about problem Y?

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Darat

The type of changes I am talking about are like the “Domestic Abuse Bill 2020”, that hopefully will address some of the issues and help reduce the number of women murdered.

According to the article it doesn't even address the root cause of all British men's violence against women: that sex discrimination is endemic in British society and where male predatory behavior is normalized from an early age.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ban....knives?

The article says a woman is killed by a man every three days. It does not say how often men kill men. Also one every three days, I expect?

Plus as an American, any demographic only being killed once every three days is the ******* Xmas miracle.

We do have restrictions and even bans on certain types of knifes and you have to be over 18 to buy anything more than cutlery and there are restrictions on what you can carry in public.

But even if most murders involve knives it is likely they will be domestic knives not “weapon” style knives.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

According to the article it doesn't even address the root cause of all British men's violence against women: that sex discrimination is endemic in British society and where male predatory behavior is normalized from an early age.

Our efforts are ongoing, it is very unlikely there is “a” solution.

ETA: Out of curiosity, not to pull a tu quoque or whataboutism how does the UK compare to other countries? It may be we need to look elsewhere for something that will help.

[Darat]

To answer my own question: http://www.genevadeclaration.org/fil...3_pp87-120.pdf

Page 6 shows England and Wales as “very low” for female victims of homicide - less than 0.9 per 100,000 which puts us amongst the lowest in the world.

Despite us being very low in actual female victims of homicides per 100,000 most of our female victims are a result of partner killings - around 75% - see page 21.

So it would seem sensible to focus our attention on partner killings if we want to further reduce the rate of female victims of homicide.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Darat

... ETA: Out of curiosity, not to pull a tu quoque or whataboutism how does the UK compare to other countries? It may be we need to look elsewhere for something that will help.

That's my first thought: "is that a big number?" and if other countries do better, what do they do differently? Obviously it's bad, but is it especially bad? If it is then maybe there are lessons to be learned from countries who already improved.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

We do have restrictions and even bans on certain types of knifes and you have to be over 18 to buy anything more than cutlery and there are restrictions on what you can carry in public.

As does my State. We can carry a pocket knife with a blade up to 2 1/4", and anything larger needs the ambiguously worded "legally justifiable purpose", usually considered a tradesman's tool. Other restrictions include assisted opening mechanisms, and carrying it exposed in a sheath, no carrying in pockets. Technically, even a Swiss Army knife is illegal to carry.

Quote:

But even if most murders involve knives it is likely they will be domestic knives not “weapon” style knives.

Which is why I would question proposing a ban. Tough to carve a roast or turkey without one.

Is the OP questioning why rates of women being killed haven't come down? If so, is it simply because they were already very low? Not getting the problem here. Killers gonna kill. Its right there in the name. Should the very low incidence be expected to come down with the higher incidence?

[theprestige]

This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by theprestige

This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.

But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

Ok, so women aren't murdered as often, and when they are it tends to be by those with a close emotional relationship. That seems pretty predictable.

Has the population number remained stable during the subset incidence of femicide?

[theprestige]

Maybe women need to do a better job of choosing partners?

ETA: Also I'm pretty sure that when women murder, they mostly murder partners or children.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok, so women aren't murdered as often, and when they are it tends to be by those with a close emotional relationship. That seems pretty predictable.

Has the population number remained stable during the subset incidence of femicide?

That is what the report about the report is saying.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Darat

But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).

I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.

I gather that the 145/yr has been consistent while male on male murder has substantially declined?

[theprestige]

I gather the problem with the gender variance in domestic violence cases is simply because men are on average stronger than women. Whenever a dispute between partners escalates to violence, men are more likely to prevail over women. Maybe we need to consider normalizing the idea that women are the weaker sex, and that men have a chivalrous duty to never ever hit a woman. No matter how much of a douchebag you may be, a real man doesn't raise his hand to a woman. That sort of thing.

Of course, we should probably also push for a corresponding social value that wives should not poison their husbands, no matter how aggravating those men are.

[cullennz]

Bit embarrassing, but according to that chart in the link, we are one of the worst in the world.

Nearly 50/50

NZ

Males 48.8%
Females 51.2%

Think different countries have different categories and way of working it out though.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.

It's about money. The domestic violence industry is looking for an increase in funding while tacitly admitting that their efforts over the past decade have been rather ineffective.

Judging by the photo collage at the top of The Guardian article, femicide is largely a white people problem.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Darat

Our efforts are ongoing, it is very unlikely there is “a” solution.

Quote:

The scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide in the UK is, in part, because each killing, is treated by various agencies as “an isolated incident” and “giving no cause for wider public concern”.

It's about time British people recognized that when British men subject British women to violence it's an attack against all British women as a whole. This violence is just another form of repression by British patriarchal society.

The experts have spoken: Britain hates Women and something must be done.

[Rolfe]

But all the hoo-hah on Friday was about the Trans Day of Remembrance. Police forces tweeting their solidarity, everyone being exhorted to remember the terrible death toll of the murdered trans people, killed for the crime of wanting to be their authentic selves.

Anybody see police forces going on about violence against women? This Wednesday, you say? We'll see.

Can anyone name any of the trans people murdered in Britain last year? For any motive at all? Someone?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Stout

It's about money. The domestic violence industry is looking for an increase in funding while tacitly admitting that their efforts over the past decade have been rather ineffective. ...snip...

Anything like evidence for this conspiracy theory?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

It's about time British people recognized that when British men subject British women to violence it's an attack against all British women as a whole. This violence is just another form of repression by British patriarchal society.

The experts have spoken: Britain hates Women and something must be done.

Again I am assuming you are making some point? If so could you just say whatever the point is, it isn’t easy decoding your cryptic posts.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by Darat

Anything like evidence for this conspiracy theory?

When is it even not about money ?

[Elagabalus]

So strike the J.A.Henckel/Wüsthof complete knife set off the wedding gift list @myregistry.com?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Stout

When is it even not about money ?

It’s your claim not mine.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by Darat

It’s your claim not mine.

From a link, in the article, in the OP...

[dann]

Originally Posted by Darat

But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).

I don't know if this can be of any use for comparison:

Quote:

Under 2019 konstaterades 18 fall av dödligt våld där offer och förövare hade en parrelation vid tidpunkten för brottet eller tidigare, vilket motsvarar en andel på 16 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld under året. Det är färre än 2018 då förövare och offer hade en parrelation i 26 fall, vilket utgjorde 24 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld 2018. Antalet fall av dödligt våld mot kvinnor där offret och förövaren var eller hade varit i en parrelation uppgick till 16 fall 2019, vilket motsvarar 64 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld mot kvinnor under året. Dödligt våld mot män i en parrelation uppgick till 2 fall 2019.
Mord och dråp: Närstående i parrelation (Brottsförebyggande rådet)

Wiki translation:
In 2019, 18 cases of lethal violence were found where victims and perpetrators had a relationship at the time of the crime or earlier, which corresponds to a share of 16 percent of all cases of lethal violence during the year. This is less than in 2018 when perpetrators and victims had a relationship in 26 cases, which was 24 percent of all cases of lethal violence in 2018. The number of cases of lethal violence against women where the victim and perpetrator were or had been in a relationship amounted to 16 cases 2019, which corresponds to 64 percent of all cases of lethal violence against women during the year. Lethal violence against men in a couple relationship amounted to 2 cases in 2019.
Murder and manslaughter: People in couple relationship (Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention)

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Stout

From a link, in the article, in the OP...

All men should be taxed to pay for their crimes against womanhood. That would be a start.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

But all the hoo-hah on Friday was about the Trans Day of Remembrance. Police forces tweeting their solidarity, everyone being exhorted to remember the terrible death toll of the murdered trans people, killed for the crime of wanting to be their authentic selves.

Anybody see police forces going on about violence against women? This Wednesday, you say? We'll see.

Can anyone name any of the trans people murdered in Britain last year? For any motive at all? Someone?

Exactly. A woman is killed every 3 days by a MAN and no one is concerned about it. The British people care more about some guys dressing up in girls clothes than they do all of the female sex.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Is this one of those things where if you say there's a problem X, people get mad because you didn't mention problem Y and by not doing so they think you don't care about problem Y?

Let me see.....

Originally Posted by theprestige

This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.

Sooooo, I'm going to go with "Yes..."

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Let me see.....



Sooooo, I'm going to go with "Yes..."

Well, you're wrong. I just think it's weird and kinda sexist to turn murder into a gender issue, and then focus on the gender that's getting much less of the issue anyway.

Conversely, BLM has a point, since it seems like black people really are overrepresented as victims of police brutality in many parts of the US. But women are underrepresented in murder statistics. So singling women out for special anti-murder efforts just seems like gratuitous gender-baiting. And also anti-feminist.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Well, you're wrong. I just think it's weird and kinda sexist to turn murder into a gender issue, and then focus on the gender that's getting much less of the issue anyway.

Conversely, BLM has a point, since it seems like black people really are overrepresented as victims of police brutality in many parts of the US. But women are underrepresented in murder statistics. So singling women out for special anti-murder efforts just seems like gratuitous gender-baiting. And also anti-feminist.

And yet here you are still doing it.

The fact is that women are way over-represented in domestic homicides, predominately by their male partners and ex-partners. So, yeah, that is a gender issue. Yes, that might be a small number of overall murders, but it is the main reason that women are murdered and that makes it worthy of both discussion and research into how to resolve it, and investigation into why it seems that efforts to stem it don't seem to be working well.

It also has nothing to do with men getting murdered or blacks being murdered, those are totally irrelevant to the discussion, but just as TM pointed out, you couldn't help but start jumping up and down about problem Y because it isn't problem X in a "how dare you talk about problem X and not problem Y" way. YM called you out on this argument before you even made it, but you went ahead and did it anyway.

The cool thing, we're humans, we have these brains that allow us to walk and chew gum at the same time. This isn't some zero-sum game where if we talk about the murders of women in acts of Domestic Violence that we somehow relegate all other murders to a state of non-existence and then can totally ignore them from here on out. Rather we can actually discuss and look at the domestic homicide of women, the deaths of blacks at the hands of law enforcement, gang violence, and lots of other things too, all without minimizing any of them. Well some of us can, because it seems that some don't have that ability, or at least have no will to use it.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

And yet here you are still doing it.

Not doing what I was accused of doing. Not everything is about what you imagine it's about.

Quote:

The fact is that women are way over-represented in domestic homicides, predominately by their male partners and ex-partners. So, yeah, that is a gender issue.

And we know why that happens: The vast majority of domestic partnerships are heterosexual, and women are on average weaker than men. We would absolutely expect to see that when bad domestic relationships escalate to physical violence, it's between a man and a woman, and the man tends to prevail. Once you take into account the heterosexual bias in human intimacy, and the physical differences between males and females, I think women probably aren't overrepresented after all.

Plus, the report doesn't focus on domestic violence specifically anyway.

And anyway, what's your solution to the gender inequality in physical violence? Deprecate heterosexuality so there are less of these imbalanced partnerships, thus reducing the overall risk? Encouraging chivalry and a value of protecting the weaker sex, among men?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by theprestige

This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

I'm not seeing where you're getting this from? I see the breakout of victims of homicide by sex, but no information about the proportion by sex of the perpetrator.