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Old 8th June 2019, 05:52 AM   #201
alfaniner
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I for one am glad my big cat uses his scratching post.
(Sorry, I can't get it to rotate correctly.)
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Basic tasks for cats include walking, running and climbing. These are tasks that are much easier to do if you have fingers and toes.
And yet, again, it doesn't seem to hinder declawed cats. They jump and climb just fine. Indoors, that is.

Quote:
It’s been pointed out to you several times that that is not necessarily the case and cats certainly don’t need their canines to live even if they do need their other teeth.
Strange that you try to remind me of this since I've already addressed that.

Quote:
Well I’m not worried about claw damage and neither are most of the people arguing against you. Should we be basing laws on what worries you?
Kindly quote me advocating for making laws.

Oh, wait. I'm the one saying we shouldn't make a law on this.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:23 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Total lack of awareness about what "basic tasks" are for a cat.
You seem to think I've only seen cats in books. Plenty of people I know have them, so I have some idea of what I'm talking about, ok? They perform all of their indoor tasks without trouble.

But do tell. Which of those tasks can't they perform?

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It lasts forever.
Evidence, please. I've seen no indication of this.

Quote:
No, they really don't, not in a domestic setting.
Yes, It's entirely possible to feed them purée or to do it intravenously. But why would one want to do that? It seems to me like you're just trying to disagree on every single point. I've not personally had trouble with biting cats, so I don't see the point in removing the canines. If it's a problem for you, go nuts. I'm not morally opposed to it. What point do you think you're trying to make, here?

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
As I understand it, declawing usually only involves the front claws. Defanging would only involve the canines, leaving the cat with all the teeth they need to eat, given that an indoor cat has no use for its fangs. I've explained twice already the manner in which cats chew their food. Was it so hard to understand?
Not agreeing with you is not the same thing as not understanding. If you want to remove your cat's canines because it's making trouble, I won't stop you.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:41 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Seems to me that Rolfe was talking about the name Felix, not the latin genus that relates to cats.

(of the name Felix) :

Felix is a male given name that stems from Latin (fēlix, felicis) and means "happy" or "lucky".
It's still a pretty lame joke. There must be a hundred "Fluffy"s for each "Felix". Apart from the ancient cartoon cat of that name I've never encountered a cat named "Felix", so how "archetypical" can it be?
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:47 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's still a pretty lame joke. There must be a hundred "Fluffy"s for each "Felix". Apart from the ancient cartoon cat of that name I've never encountered a cat named "Felix", so how "archetypical" can it be?
There's a brand of cat food called Felix but, yes, it would be corny to call a cat Felix. Ditto for Fido a dog.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:49 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
There's a brand of cat food called Felix but
I bet Felix Butt cat food still smells better than Fancy Feast. It's been thirty years since I had to open a can of Fancy Feast but I can still smell it just from memory when I hear the name.
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Old 8th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And yet, again, it doesn't seem to hinder declawed cats. They jump and climb just fine. Indoors, that is.
They really can't climb remotely as well. My daughter has a loft bed where her cat sleeps with her, and the cat wouldn't even be able to make it up the carpeted, steep ramp without her claws.

Cats also need their claws to stretch their bodies. They dig their claws into something up high and pull down to stretch.

A lot of cats really do experience pain for life from it, as well. Many stop even using the litter box for forever because of the pain.
https://www.petmd.com/news/view/decl...ems-cats-36344
Quote:
As a licensed veterinary technician, I have seen the side effects of declawing cats—and they’re not pretty. Declawing, or onychectomy, is a severe surgical procedure in which the last bone of each toe (the third phalanx) is amputated.


Many cats who have been declawed refuse to use the litter box over time, because the process is extremely painful.
Quote:
Removing the bone of the digit also changes the cat’s anatomy, how he bears weight on his paws, and his entire posture. Declawing may also increase a cat’s risk of developing long-term back pain, a recent study found.
Quote:
Scratching is a normal behavior for cats. It helps them mark their territory with scent glands located in their paws, keeps their claws conditioned, and stretches their muscles. To avoid surgery, you can use training methods to redirect your cat’s scratching.
Very few people who know how bad it is still choose to do it. Most people who do it have no idea what it even really is.

eta:

Also:
https://catvets.com/guidelines/posit...ents/declawing
Quote:
The American Association of Feline Practitioners (AAFP) strongly opposes declawing (onychectomy) as an elective procedure. It is the obligation of veterinarians to provide cat owners with alternatives to declawing. If owners are considering declawing, they must be provided with complete education about feline declawing.
Quote:
There are inherent risks and complications with declawing that increase with age such as acute pain, infection, nerve trauma, as well as long term complications like lameness, behavioral problems, and chronic neuropathic pain.
ETAA:

https://www.canadianveterinarians.ne...tion-statement

Quote:
PARTIAL DIGITAL AMPUTATION (ONYCHECTOMY OR DECLAWING) OF THE DOMESTIC FELID - POSITION STATEMENT
March 16, 2017

Position
The Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) opposes elective and non-therapeutic Partial Digital Amputation (PDA), commonly known as declawing or onychectomy, of domestic cats.
Quote:
Surgical amputation of the third phalynx of the digit alters the expression of normal behaviours in cats, causes avoidable short-term acute pain, and has the potential to cause chronic pain and negative long-term orthopedic consequences (2,4-7).
Quote:
Since the third phalanx is removed by PDA, cats must thereafter bear their weight on the second phalanx. This fact has implicated PDA as a cause of lameness.
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #208
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Thank you for that, KellyB
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:40 AM   #209
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Had no clue this is what declawing actually entails. Decidedly barbaric. And, more to the point, decidedly weird.

Why not just get the vet to clip their nails? Or, if you must inject barbarity into the proceedings, why not go lite, and simply, and literally, de-claw, that is, simply remove just the claws, the nails?
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Had no clue this is what declawing actually entails. Decidedly barbaric. And, more to the point, decidedly weird.



Why not just get the vet to clip their nails? Or, if you must inject barbarity into the proceedings, why not go lite, and simply, and literally, de-claw, that is, simply remove just the claws, the nails?
I only heard about declawing from being on this forum as it's pretty much unheard of over here (UK). At first when it was posted about I thought it was a removal of just the claw which sounded terrible enough but when I learnt it was in fact multiple amputations I was shocked.
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:56 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Or, if you must inject barbarity into the proceedings, why not go lite, and simply, and literally, de-claw, that is, simply remove just the claws, the nails?
I guess it would just grow back, the same way a ripped off fingernail will grow back, but you can cut off the finger at the last joint and then there will be no nail ever growing ever again?

A cat's claw grows directly out of the last (3rd) bone.

Link to image: https://www.groomertogroomer.com/cla...claw-problems/
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Old 8th June 2019, 10:01 AM   #212
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The claw has living tissue (the quick) inside it and will bleed if cut back too far. Two nights ago we had to trim our parrot's claws (she was not amused - a cat would be just as unamused and much better armed to fight back) and I cut too far on one claw, so a little blood was spilled. I dare say the same is true of cats, so you really can't trim very far down.
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Old 8th June 2019, 10:33 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They really can't climb remotely as well. My daughter has a loft bed where her cat sleeps with her, and the cat wouldn't even be able to make it up the carpeted, steep ramp without her claws.
That's odd. Cats can jump much higher than a bed, normally.

Quote:
A lot of cats really do experience pain for life from it, as well.
Ah, finally, an argument! After all these other posters just shouting how barbaric it is, someone steps up with something that might actually change my mind. If it can be shown that cats, in significant numbers, suffer long term from the procedure, it would outweigh my other considerations.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The claw has living tissue (the quick) inside it and will bleed if cut back too far.
Yes, that's an issue with trimming rabbit claws as well.
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Old 8th June 2019, 10:51 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Cats that go outdoors use their claws for defence and to help climb trees when escaping from danger (and when climbing for fun, obviously).

If you can't stand having furniture shredded then don't get a cat, I'd say. I'm amazed the practice is allowed.

If you can't stand keeping your cat indoors don't own a cat.

I am seriously tired of cats crapping and pissing in my yard. It stinks it up and I have to hunt down the piles. YOUR piles! I am tired of doing gardening and grabbing cat crap accidentally with my bare hands.

Cat owners need to grow the hell up and take care of their animals. Leaving a cat outside should be illegal but for some stupid reason it is not.

If you cared about your cats you would not leave them outside to:

- die of exposure
- get hit by cars
- attacked by dogs
- kitty leukemia
- poisoning
- kill birds that they do not eat
- bother your neighbors with howling and crying at night
- leaving your neighbors to clean feathers from dead birds off our vegetables after a good kill.
- leaving your neighbors to clean up after your stinky cat.

I don't like cats but I hate cat owners that do this.
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Old 8th June 2019, 11:02 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
If you can't stand keeping your cat indoors don't own a cat.

I am seriously tired of cats crapping and pissing in my yard. It stinks it up and I have to hunt down the piles. YOUR piles! I am tired of doing gardening and grabbing cat crap accidentally with my bare hands.

Cat owners need to grow the hell up and take care of their animals. Leaving a cat outside should be illegal but for some stupid reason it is not.

If you cared about your cats you would not leave them outside to:

- die of exposure
- get hit by cars
- attacked by dogs
- kitty leukemia
- poisoning
- kill birds that they do not eat
- bother your neighbors with howling and crying at night
- leaving your neighbors to clean feathers from dead birds off our vegetables after a good kill.
- leaving your neighbors to clean up after your stinky cat.

I don't like cats but I hate cat owners that do this.
Funny, all my cats have been outdoor cats and they’ve all lived to a ripe old age.
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Old 8th June 2019, 11:14 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's odd. Cats can jump much higher than a bed, normally.
Loft beds are like bunk beds without a bottom bunk. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80160867/
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Old 8th June 2019, 12:13 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Funny, all my cats have been outdoor cats and they’ve all lived to a ripe old age.
I'd also observe that there are tons of cats living round here, and the items mgidm86's list are not very apparent.
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Old 8th June 2019, 02:21 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cat owners need to grow the hell up and take care of their animals.
For some people, cats are a fire-and-forget animal, I guess. Let's not generalise, though.
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I'd also observe that there are tons of cats living round here, and the items mgidm86's list are not very apparent.
Ditto. Offhand I can't recall any purely indoor cat among my friends and acquaintances. Leonard comes and goes pretty much as he pleases. He sleeps indoors 99% of nights (really warm nights being the exception, and even then it's on the patio or window ledge).
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:30 PM   #220
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Since surgery isn’t palatable, is breeding the **** out of them an option?
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Old 8th June 2019, 05:05 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Funny, all my cats have been outdoor cats and they’ve all lived to a ripe old age.
It probably depends on the area you live in. I live in the inner city where there are lots of cars and packs of stray dogs roaming around. Cats allowed outside never live long around here.
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Old 8th June 2019, 05:27 PM   #222
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Since the first two, all our cats have been indoor. I don't know that they lived longer, but the vet bills have been much lower. We has at least an abscess a year for the first two, haven't had one since.
We haven't had a decapitated rodent on the porch, either.
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Old 8th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Offhand I can't recall any purely indoor cat among my friends and acquaintances.
Different people have different circumstances, of course. Most of the people whom I know who have had or have a cat don't let them outside. Not all.
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Old 9th June 2019, 06:25 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I guess it would just grow back, the same way a ripped off fingernail will grow back, but you can cut off the finger at the last joint and then there will be no nail ever growing ever again?

A cat's claw grows directly out of the last (3rd) bone.

Link to image: https://www.groomertogroomer.com/cla...claw-problems/

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The claw has living tissue (the quick) inside it and will bleed if cut back too far. Two nights ago we had to trim our parrot's claws (she was not amused - a cat would be just as unamused and much better armed to fight back) and I cut too far on one claw, so a little blood was spilled. I dare say the same is true of cats, so you really can't trim very far down.

Okay, I do see that simply removing the claws may not work. Subjecting your cat to qualitatively lesser pain (than this amputation horror) but arguably cumulatively greater trauma, given multiple and recurring operations if you're simply removing just the nail, is probably not a very good idea. No doubt that's why people don't do it.

I've never owned a cat myself, so I'm afraid my ideas on this are only second- and third-hand -- and, while I do have friends who have cats, I don't remember ever having spoken or thought about this claw business before going through this thread here -- but a quick search shows that trimming cats' nails (no doubt taking care not to snip off the live portions) is very much a thing if you don't mind the recurring bother and/or expense that these trips to the vet or pet salon would entail.

In fact, clipping their claws is easily DIY-able, apparently. And if you're hip/dorky/madly-in-love-with-your-cat, then apparently you can do up your cat's nails to match with your own (or vice versa). Oh, and nail caps for cats are also a thing, apparently.

Any case, far as I can see, if at all cruelty to animals is a thing, well then this qualifies. I don't see the arguments for declawing here on this thread have any real merit. I mean, just as you can be hauled up for starving your pet, or kicking them, and so on -- and can't get away by saying that for those constituted as I am, it is either this or no cats for me, and so no homes for so many cats -- similarly this. At least IMO, if you aren't prepared to do this much for your cat, you really shouldn't be allowed to own one.
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Old 9th June 2019, 06:44 AM   #225
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Quote:
and can't get away by saying that for those constituted as I am, it is either this or no cats for me, and so no homes for so many cats -- similarly this.
We've always had cats. We buy cat scratchers that are essentially cardboard tubes with carpet stapled to them, and they love them. We've had very few problems with furniture being scratched or ripped, but they do destroy the scratchers, so we have to replace them every year or so. A cheapo cardboard box variety is also available at the dollar stores, and we buy a couple of them now and then, too.
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Old 9th June 2019, 07:09 AM   #226
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I've never had a cat that was a problem scratcher. I remember spending the £1000 I got as an advance for writing a textbook on an Ercol sofa and seeing Rolfe eyeing it up as I unwrapped the packaging material. I said, "Don't even think about it. Don't even dream about it. Don't let the slightest shadow of a notion of it cross your furry little mind." And to his eternal credit, he didn't. I'm sitting on that sofa now. It has outlasted both Rolfe and Caramel and Jori is now reclining on it, and all it has is one or two accidental snags from Caramel, who was a polydactl and sometimes got one of his truly magnificent number of claws caught.

Jori does appear to be about to scratch, quite often, but he only partially digs his claws in, stretches his body, and then releases again with the furniture unscathed. I think scratching, like peeing, is something usually done at the periphery of the territory, as a territory marker. ("Look how far up this fence I can claw. See how tall I am! You may prefer to Be Somewhere Else.")

I've never had to buy a scratching post. I suspect if I tried to keep a cat indoors I would have to do that. (I suspect if I tried to keep Jori indoors the house would be trashed.) The only downside is that he's so bursting with energy and so active that he costs me as much to feed as two indoor cats. And even then I suspect he's supplementing the Felix sachets with fresh pigeon from time to time.
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Old 9th June 2019, 07:17 AM   #227
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Speaking of fresh pigeon, I have to say, if this discussion is to be based on cruelty and nothing else (at least that's how I look at it, having no Scotsmen in the race myself), having cats wring the necks of birds doesn't really seem particularly kind either. Is cruelty cruel only when I and mine are brought up before it, and not otherwise?

It seems to me -- and this is just a knee-jerk thought that I haven't really thought over fully before tapping out this comment here -- that owners of cats should be made responsible for ensuring that their pets don't kill random creatures, at least not unless they're pests.
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:06 AM   #228
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I've now got my first ever indoor only cat (she is totally deaf and outside would be a death trap for her) and she is the most willful cat I've ever had but even she doesn't cause any significant damage by scratching. On soft surfaces she will put her claws in it and stretch but not the destructive scratching she does on her purposefully designed scratching poles and boxes. I would suggest those with a worry about cats' destructive scratching might want to try a 99p scratching box before deciding that multiple amputation is the solution.
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:36 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've never had a cat that was a problem scratcher. I remember spending the £1000 I got as an advance for writing a textbook on an Ercol sofa and seeing Rolfe eyeing it up as I unwrapped the packaging material. I said, "Don't even think about it. Don't even dream about it. Don't let the slightest shadow of a notion of it cross your furry little mind." And to his eternal credit, he didn't. I'm sitting on that sofa now. It has outlasted both Rolfe and Caramel and Jori is now reclining on it, and all it has is one or two accidental snags from Caramel, who was a polydactl and sometimes got one of his truly magnificent number of claws caught.

Jori does appear to be about to scratch, quite often, but he only partially digs his claws in, stretches his body, and then releases again with the furniture unscathed. I think scratching, like peeing, is something usually done at the periphery of the territory, as a territory marker. ("Look how far up this fence I can claw. See how tall I am! You may prefer to Be Somewhere Else.")

I've never had to buy a scratching post. I suspect if I tried to keep a cat indoors I would have to do that. (I suspect if I tried to keep Jori indoors the house would be trashed.) The only downside is that he's so bursting with energy and so active that he costs me as much to feed as two indoor cats. And even then I suspect he's supplementing the Felix sachets with fresh pigeon from time to time.

Though Leonard won't touch Felix, it Sheba or Whiskas for him. Or roast chicken.
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Old 9th June 2019, 12:07 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought it was toxoplasmosis, but it was a while ago and I may have been slightly distracted what with my retina ripping. They did an HIV test and I may just have a mental association there.
Toxoplasmosis testing makes complete sense, so you were probably correct. It also fits with the HIV test:
Quote:
The clinical presentation of ocular toxoplasmosis depends on patient age, and the location, size and severity of retinochoroiditis. Ocular manifestations include floaters and blurred vision. Decreased visual acuity may occur as a result of macular involvement or severe vitreous inflammation. In immunocompromised patients, the clinical presentation may be rather atypical.8

Toxoplasmic retinochoroiditis is a recurrent disease in two-thirds of patients.9-11 An active toxoplasmic retinochoroiditis is whitish and moderately exudative with ill-defined borders and involves the macula in a majority of patients.12 Mild to moderate anterior segment inflammation may or may not be a presenting feature;13 vitreous inflammation is virtually always present. Retinal vasculitis in the vicinity of an active lesion or in the distant retina may also be seen.8

Retinochoroiditis in patients with HIV/AIDS may show atypical features, such as large confluent areas of retinochoroidal necrosis and/or active bilateral lesions.8
https://www.reviewofophthalmology.co...-toxoplasmosis
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:29 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's odd. Cats can jump much higher than a bed, normally.



Ah, finally, an argument! After all these other posters just shouting how barbaric it is, someone steps up with something that might actually change my mind. If it can be shown that cats, in significant numbers, suffer long term from the procedure, it would outweigh my other considerations.



Yes, that's an issue with trimming rabbit claws as well.
Dogs too. It's more of a problem with dark colored claws. On light colored claws you can easily see the "quick" (it's pink) and avoid it.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #232
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Is there anything in the law about adding talons to a cat?
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:09 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've now got my first ever indoor only cat (she is totally deaf and outside would be a death trap for her) and she is the most willful cat I've ever had but even she doesn't cause any significant damage by scratching. On soft surfaces she will put her claws in it and stretch but not the destructive scratching she does on her purposefully designed scratching poles and boxes. I would suggest those with a worry about cats' destructive scratching might want to try a 99p scratching box before deciding that multiple amputation is the solution.
Our current pet cat, unlike her predecessors, chose to ignore scratching posts and scratching boxes and instead used our furniture and carpets to sharpen her claws.
Those nice sharp claws frequently drew blood from my hands and forearms when attempting to clip them. The ridiculously expensive food that we fed her (which purported to reduce a cats desire to scratch things up) was to no avail.

Had we not been able to get her claws removed, it would have been a one-way trip to the shelter for her.
She has experienced no observable adverse effects from the surgery that likely saved her life.

I will add that if she were a biter, I would have the offending teeth pulled and sleep fine at night.

Thankfully, our children are grown so we are unlikely to be nagged into getting another dog. If that were not the case, I would have little issue with getting it de-barked.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:48 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Dogs too. It's more of a problem with dark colored claws. On light colored claws you can easily see the "quick" (it's pink) and avoid it.
Yeah, our dachshund has dark nails and doxies have a long bloodline. We take him to the vet for trims.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:58 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Our current pet cat, unlike her predecessors, chose to ignore scratching posts and scratching boxes and instead used our furniture and carpets to sharpen her claws.
Those nice sharp claws frequently drew blood from my hands and forearms when attempting to clip them. The ridiculously expensive food that we fed her (which purported to reduce a cats desire to scratch things up) was to no avail.

Had we not been able to get her claws removed, it would have been a one-way trip to the shelter for her.
She has experienced no observable adverse effects from the surgery that likely saved her life.

I will add that if she were a biter, I would have the offending teeth pulled and sleep fine at night.

Thankfully, our children are grown so we are unlikely to be nagged into getting another dog. If that were not the case, I would have little issue with getting it de-barked.
You should not be allowed pets of any kind.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You should not be allowed pets of any kind.
I agree.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:25 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You should not be allowed pets of any kind.
Incredible how intolerant of other views people are here. Not only do you disagree with this poster, you would ban them from having a pet!
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:38 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It probably depends on the area you live in. I live in the inner city where there are lots of cars and packs of stray dogs roaming around. Cats allowed outside never live long around here.
I live in London. Lots of cars, dogs, and foxes. There's even a railway line at the end of my street. Plenty of cats around for years, including some who have been here since we moved in nine years ago.

Of course, it is the case that cats that aren't allowed out don't have the skills to survive if they do get out.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:41 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Since the first two, all our cats have been indoor. I don't know that they lived longer, but the vet bills have been much lower. We has at least an abscess a year for the first two, haven't had one since.
Given my experience of having lived with multiple cats in the past, all of whom very much made use of access to the world outside, and none of them ever had an abscess, I'm surprised it was so common for yours.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:08 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I agree.
Me too.
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