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Old 10th June 2019, 04:28 AM   #2601
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"2012 and 2013, Welcome to Hereford road signs were defaced to read "Poland""

Don't remember any of the Hereford signs being defaced.

A number of the road signs to certain villages were (including, iirc, Marden), though, up the A49.
Confused our kids a bit on the way to school.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:38 AM   #2602
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You guys keep using this word, I'm not sure it's appropriate. Could you present some evidence maybe?

McHrozni
The plan is become leader of the Tory party and PM.

The second might not follow from the first, which would be amusing, if unfortunately somewhat unlikely.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:50 AM   #2603
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Interestingly, people in the UK are now much less concerned about immigration - one of the key drivers behind Brexit.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48545143

Of course it could be that Brexiteers think that, as Brexit is underway, all of their issues relating to immigration will be resolved as a result.

I hope that it really does reflect more positive attitudes to immigrants and immigration.
The Syrian refugee crisis has gone quiet since then. The papers are no longer full of stories about scary brown people lurking around Calais, just waiting for a chance to sneak across the channel and murder us all in our beds.
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:43 AM   #2604
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
What a strange thing to do. I mean it could be seen as buying votes, which of course it isn't.

I am sure all those conservatives party members sat on their gold plated final salary pensions being effected is purely coincidental!
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:46 AM   #2605
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He also plans to increase National Insurance contributions.

So he is giving a tax cut with one hand and taking it away with the other.
You may not be aware but you don't pay NI contributions on income from your pension... Again totally coincidental.
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:48 AM   #2606
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Interestingly, people in the UK are now much less concerned about immigration - one of the key drivers behind Brexit.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48545143

Of course it could be that Brexiteers think that, as Brexit is underway, all of their issues relating to immigration will be resolved as a result.

I hope that it really does reflect more positive attitudes to immigrants and immigration.
Change of editor at the Daily Mail?
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:50 AM   #2607
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The plan His right is to become leader of the Tory party and PM.



The second might not follow from the first, which would be amusing, if unfortunately somewhat unlikely.
FTFY
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Old 10th June 2019, 07:02 AM   #2608
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
An interesting point was raised on Twitter, showing that only 20% of Conservative party members earn above 50,000 (with some 24% declining to answer). Even if all 24% of those declining to answer are above, it's still not a majority. Of course, it won't hurt him with those 44%, but still..

Elsewhere, it's being pointed out that such a move would be disastrous for the Tory party in Scotland. Why? Because the Scots have a devolved tax setup (with a 41p charge starting at 43,000 or so, instead of of the 40p charge at 50,000) so most Scottish middle-class taxpayers won't actually see a tax cut - but they'll still have to pay the increased NI payment, since it's locked to the English NI payment level.

Last edited by KDLarsen; 10th June 2019 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 07:14 AM   #2609
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I doubt whether it would be much of a vote winner in a leadership election, and suspect it would be a vote loser in a GE. My reading of things is that the general public are pretty sick of the great & the good getting kid-glove treatment over their taxes.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:35 AM   #2610
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
An interesting point was raised on Twitter, showing that only 20% of Conservative party members earn above 50,000 (with some 24% declining to answer). Even if all 24% of those declining to answer are above, it's still not a majority. Of course, it won't hurt him with those 44%, but still..

Elsewhere, it's being pointed out that such a move would be disastrous for the Tory party in Scotland. Why? Because the Scots have a devolved tax setup (with a 41p charge starting at 43,000 or so, instead of of the 40p charge at 50,000) so most Scottish middle-class taxpayers won't actually see a tax cut - but they'll still have to pay the increased NI payment, since it's locked to the English NI payment level.
Was that including pensions?
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:53 PM   #2611
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
An interesting point was raised on Twitter, showing that only 20% of Conservative party members earn above 50,000 (with some 24% declining to answer). Even if all 24% of those declining to answer are above, it's still not a majority. Of course, it won't hurt him with those 44%, but still..

Elsewhere, it's being pointed out that such a move would be disastrous for the Tory party in Scotland. Why? Because the Scots have a devolved tax setup (with a 41p charge starting at 43,000 or so, instead of of the 40p charge at 50,000) so most Scottish middle-class taxpayers won't actually see a tax cut - but they'll still have to pay the increased NI payment, since it's locked to the English NI payment level.
Plus they will no longer get their usual 40% tax back on their pension contributions.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:01 AM   #2612
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I think it would be brilliant if Sajid Javid got the PMs job. Brexit was largely driven by an anti-immigrant campaign. So, give the job of ensuring Brexit to a second generation immigrant.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:13 AM   #2613
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From the former Foreign Editor of The Times Martin Fletcher


Repellent, chaotic and a serial liar, Boris Johnson would be a catastrophic prime minister

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...strophic-prime
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:28 AM   #2614
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
From the former Foreign Editor of The Times Martin Fletcher


Repellent, chaotic and a serial liar, Boris Johnson would be a catastrophic prime minister

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...strophic-prime
You could replace the name with any other candidate and the headline would still be apt.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:33 AM   #2615
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I gather the 1922 Committee didn't change any rules so the party faithful will eventually get to choose between two finalists (instead of the up to 8 that was speculated on). That doesn't guarantee they'll be able to choose a rabid No-Dealer but whoever looks most likely to do it will win.

The only thing between us and No Deal after that would be a No Confidence vote in parliament. I don't quite see that working.
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:43 AM   #2616
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have been wondering why so many Tories are standing to be PM. I think it is because they genuinely believe that they would have done a better job than May at Brexit.

I think it is a sign of over confidence beating a genuine understanding of the issues and reality.

When the next PM gets bogged down like May did, I wonder if that will finally dent the over confidence and wake Brexiters up to that reality.
I think it has more to do with the fact that there is no-one standing who has anything particularly recommending them, the best qualification any of them has is recognisability, so it's open to anyone with sufficient confidence or sense of entitlement.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #2617
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News update: Labour plan to put forward a motion tomorrow blocking a no-deal Brexit and effectively taking the matter out of the hands of the government.

Quote:
Labour has tabled a cross-party motion to try to stop a future prime minister pushing through a no-deal Brexit against the wishes of MPs.

The party plans to force a vote on Wednesday which would give MPs control of the timetable on 25 June.

Labour says if the motion passes, MPs will be able to introduce legislation on that day to avoid a no-deal scenario at the end of October.

Some Tory leadership hopefuls have said they would leave the EU without a deal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48598760

Considering Andrea Leadsom, Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab have all said they would leave 31 October even if there was no deal will have them spitting nails.

I expect the HoC will be very lively tomorrow.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #2618
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In part by conquest of smaller nations and in part by a more peaceful political process - England-Scotland and Castillie-Aragon being the two most famous.

McHrozni
The War of the Spanish Succession included a rather bloody siege of Barcelona in 1713-14 which was not "peaceful". Aragonese institutions were then abolished by the Nueva Planta decrees.WP
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:39 PM   #2619
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
News update: Labour plan to put forward a motion tomorrow blocking a no-deal Brexit and effectively taking the matter out of the hands of the government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48598760

Considering Andrea Leadsom, Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab have all said they would leave 31 October even if there was no deal will have them spitting nails.

I expect the HoC will be very lively tomorrow.
Sadly party tribalism is such that the motion is likely to fail IMO as no Conservative would dare vote for it for fear of losing the whip/
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:52 PM   #2620
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The War of the Spanish Succession included a rather bloody siege of Barcelona in 1713-14 which was not "peaceful". Aragonese institutions were then abolished by the Nueva Planta decrees.WP
War of Spanish succession was a war between houses of Burbon (Capet) and Habsburg about who should control Spain. Yes, it also abolished what remained of the kingdom of Aragon, because they sided with the losing side (Habsburgs). It was not, in any shape or form, a war for Aragonese independence or the start of the unified Spain.

Spain de facto unified back in 1469, with the marriage of Isabella of Castillie and Ferdinand of Aragon. The country remained a union of kingdoms, with Castillie (itself a union of the kingdoms of Castillie and Leon) getting the upper hand most of the time, until Castillian institutions sided with the winning side after the death of Charels II of Spain. In the ensuing war France (& friends) prevailed over Austria (& friends) and Aragonese institutions got the shaft.

It wasn't some sort of a war of unification or anything. Independent institutions were collateral damage.

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Old 11th June 2019, 11:00 PM   #2621
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sadly party tribalism is such that the motion is likely to fail IMO as no Conservative would dare vote for it for fear of losing the whip/
They don't have to vote for it. If Labour, SNP, LibDem ChUK, Cymru and Greens gather all their strength they have 301 votes. All they need to do is to get 38 abstinentions from Tories, DUP and independents and the motion passes.

The calculation above counts all independents as Tory Brexiteers, near as I can tell they're more likely to support the motion than oppose it. If all threw their weight behind the motion you just need 6 abstinentions.

Realistically you need more because you won't have all of your MPs present and voting for the motion, but the same goes for Tories. I reckon twenty or so abstinentions with none voting in favor should be enough, if you could get forty that's plenty and should be enough no matter what Theresa May, BJ or anyone else does or says.

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Old 12th June 2019, 02:21 AM   #2622
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
News update: Labour plan to put forward a motion tomorrow blocking a no-deal Brexit and effectively taking the matter out of the hands of the government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48598760

Considering Andrea Leadsom, Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab have all said they would leave 31 October even if there was no deal will have them spitting nails.

I expect the HoC will be very lively tomorrow.
This seems prudent although it would also take away any leverage the new PM has to negotiate a "better" deal than May's deal. (Assuming that the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit either).
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:25 AM   #2623
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
This seems prudent although it would also take away any leverage the new PM has to negotiate a "better" deal than May's deal. (Assuming that the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit either).
....and assuming that the threat of a no-deal actually provides leverage to get that deal - as opposed to suggesting that the UK are absolutist fundamentalists and that any form of negotiation is simply a waste of time.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:00 AM   #2624
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
War of Spanish succession was a war between houses of Burbon (Capet) and Habsburg about who should control Spain. Yes, it also abolished what remained of the kingdom of Aragon, because they sided with the losing side (Habsburgs). It was not, in any shape or form, a war for Aragonese independence or the start of the unified Spain.
It represented a shift in sovereign and hence sovereignty. Trying to impose modern ideas of sovereign nation states before they came about is pretty silly.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:01 AM   #2625
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Yes.
No deal doesn't actually provide any leverage at all (except with elements within the UK).

As with everything else Brexit related, it's a complete scam.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:05 AM   #2626
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
This seems prudent although it would also take away any leverage the new PM has to negotiate a "better" deal than May's deal. (Assuming that the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit either).
There is no leverage whatsoever. There never was any. There is none now. There won't be any in future.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:07 AM   #2627
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
No deal doesn't actually provide any leverage at all (except with elements within the UK).
I've always seen it as the political equivalent of the "Nobody move or the ****** gets it!" scene from Blazing Saddles.

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Old 12th June 2019, 04:31 AM   #2628
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
War of Spanish succession was a war between houses of Burbon (Capet) and Habsburg about who should control Spain. Yes, it also abolished what remained of the kingdom of Aragon, because they sided with the losing side (Habsburgs). It was not, in any shape or form, a war for Aragonese independence or the start of the unified Spain.

Spain de facto unified back in 1469, with the marriage of Isabella of Castillie and Ferdinand of Aragon. The country remained a union of kingdoms, with Castillie (itself a union of the kingdoms of Castillie and Leon) getting the upper hand most of the time, until Castillian institutions sided with the winning side after the death of Charels II of Spain. In the ensuing war France (& friends) prevailed over Austria (& friends) and Aragonese institutions got the shaft.

It wasn't some sort of a war of unification or anything. Independent institutions were collateral damage.

McHrozni
That doesn't make sense. The war resulted in the destruction of the crown of Aragon's political institutions and subsequent imposition of Castilian ones. It is called a war of succession, but it resulted in unification and that was not a peaceful operation. The unification dates from the abolition of the Corts. As in Britain the two Crowns had a single monarch before that. But the unification came when the legislatures were united. Scotland and England weren't united in 1603, but in 1707.
See wiki Crown of AragonWP
The Crown of Aragon and its institutions were abolished in 1716 only after the War of the Spanish Succession (17011714) by the Nueva Planta decrees, issued by Philip V of Spain. The old regime was swept away, the administration was subsumed into the Castilian administration, the lands of the Crown were united formally with those of Castile to legally form a single state, the kingdom of Spain, as it moved towards a centralized government under the new Bourbon dynasty.

Last edited by Craig B; 12th June 2019 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:35 AM   #2629
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I've always seen it as the political equivalent of the "Nobody move or the ****** gets it!" scene from Blazing Saddles.

Dave
Only with out the EU being the common clay of the new west.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:42 AM   #2630
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That doesn't make sense. The war resulted in the destruction of the crown of Aragon's political institutions and subsequent imposition of Castilian ones. It is called a war of succession, but it resulted in unification and that was not a peaceful operation. The unification dates from the abolition of the Corts. As in Britain the two Crowns had a single monarch before that. But the unification came when the legislatures were united. Scotland and England weren't united in 1603, but in 1707.
See wiki Crown of AragonWP
The Crown of Aragon and its institutions were abolished in 1716 only after the War of the Spanish Succession (17011714) by the Nueva Planta decrees, issued by Philip V of Spain. The old regime was swept away, the administration was subsumed into the Castilian administration, the lands of the Crown were united formally with those of Castile to legally form a single state, the kingdom of Spain, as it moved towards a centralized government under the new Bourbon dynasty.
It resulted in a centralization of what was already a single state for over 200 years at that point.

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Old 12th June 2019, 05:46 AM   #2631
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Quote:
It will take “six to eight months” to build up supplies of medicines for a no-deal Brexit, a leaked cabinet note says – undermining Boris Johnson’s threat to crash out of the EU on 31 October.
Source:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...xYOAcyFzzHFMFM
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:53 AM   #2632
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only with out the EU being the common clay of the new west.
Yes, that was always the fundamental misapprehension behind the Leave campaign - which side is the common clay.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:37 AM   #2633
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I'm not sure the unpleasantness of the War of the Spanish Succession provides a good model for Leave/Remain divided Britain.

Consider instead disagreements which actually occurred here and were handled with typical British reserve and good manners: the Reformation, for example, or the falling out between the Royalists and Parliamentarians. Both, so far as I remember, were dealt with politely and with the minimum of unpleasantness. The Civil war was estimated to have killed a mere 4% of the entire population, and ended, I have no doubt, with a firm handshake and an unspoken agreement never to speak of the matter again. A lesson for us all at this difficult time.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:38 AM   #2634
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It's just more Project FearTM at work. After Brexit there will be no sickness and so no need for medicines, much less a drug stockpile.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:26 AM   #2635
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Besides, that nice Mr Trump said he'd see us right...
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:38 AM   #2636
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's just more Project FearTM at work. After Brexit there will be no sickness and so no need for medicines, much less a drug stockpile.
Indeed, me hearing the pharmacist yesterday telling the customer in front of me that diabetics are being advised to have two weeks supply of insulin in hand due to Brexit-related shortages must have been a Project Fear-induced auditory hallucination....

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th June 2019 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #2637
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Indeed, me hearing the pharmacist telling the customer in front of me that diabetics are being advised to have two weeks supply of insulin in hand due to Brexit-related shortages must have been a Project Fear-induced auditory hallucination....
If it's any comfort, the food shortages that very well may follow Brexit may result in a reduction of the incidence of Type-2 (a.k.a bad) diabetes.

Those with Type-1 (a.k.a. good) diabetes can be cured just by touching Nigel Farage's tweed suit - such is the power of Brexit.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:07 AM   #2638
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It's the run up to Christmas as well...

At least we're growing sprouts this year, though I really don't fancy just sprouts for Christmas dinner.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:14 AM   #2639
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's the run up to Christmas as well...

At least we're growing sprouts this year, though I really don't fancy just sprouts for Christmas dinner.
There were six squirrels and two rather handsome male pheasants on our deck this morning - Christmas is sorted

I also note that the bunnehs are returning to the garden after an absence of several years so Boxing Day might be well taken care of as well
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:16 AM   #2640
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Labour MP refuses to support a Labour motion to prevent no deal

Quote:
Labour MP Gareth Snell - who represents a constituency in Leave-voting Stoke - says he will now vote for a Brexit deal if one is brought forward, having opposed it before.

He says he will abstain on the motion this afternoon, however, because further delay does not change the fact no deal is the default in law.

Talk of future deals is "pie in the sky", he says, adding that the choice now is between supporting Mrs May's deal and cancelling Brexit.

If Labour continues to oppose a deal, it will be "responsible for a no-deal Brexit by default" by "not making a decision", he adds.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share
I cannot decide whether Labour are a shambles, a shower or a combination of the two
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