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Old 21st March 2019, 07:42 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Bribing MPs with the country's money. (That we were told didn't exist)
Not so much a "magic money tree," as a "magic brown envelope handed over on platform 3 of Victoria station...."

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st March 2019 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:45 AM   #242
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It's 2:50, I'm watching the petition tally real time to see if it breaks tye million by 3 o'clock.

Eta: And the forum timestamp is off by five minutes?
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:48 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
It's 2:50, I'm watching the petition tally real time to see if it breaks tye million by 3 o'clock.

Eta: And the forum timestamp is off by five minutes?




That turned out to be less of a race against the clock than I had anticipated!
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:49 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Allegedly Corbyn walked out of the opposition leaders' meeting with the PM, as the Independent Group was represented, and he doesn't consider them to be part of the opposition.
Bumptious twat.
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:49 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose it depends on how frightened Theresa May can make the horses and/or how effectively she can bribe the DUP and some Labour MPs.

All bar the most extreme ERG MPs could claim that they are finally supporting May's deal because the alternative is no-Brexit (not actually true but they may not want to carry the can for no-deal) which could allow the deal to squeak over the line - so long as the pay-offs are successful. Heck, she could even get more support if Labour suddenly think that their current assessment that the alternative to Theresa May's deal is a significantly delayed or cancelled Brexit is wrong and actually if Theresa May's deal fails then we're crashing out with a no-deal.

Well, I thought it was ruled that she can't bring the same deal a third time? That's why I wrote it's apparently impossible that what Merkel said will happen - agreeing to the deal before next Friday.
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Old 21st March 2019, 08:09 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Well, I thought it was ruled that she can't bring the same deal a third time? That's why I wrote it's apparently impossible that what Merkel said will happen - agreeing to the deal before next Friday.
The speaker has ruled that is the case but there are several "outs" available to the government which would allow them to bring the deal back for a vote including

- Voting to overrule the speaker
- Asking the queen to close the current session of parliament
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:30 AM   #247
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Looking at the latest soundbites:

- May will not countenance revoking Article 50
- Labour do not believe revoking Article 50 is necessary
- MPs are focused on what happens after May's deal is rejected again
- The EU want a short delay

All of the above leads me to think that my prediction that a no-deal is a certainty is right .

edited to add....

which the majority of Conservatives will consider a victory and Theresa May will be perfectly happy with, so long as she's able to continue to be PM.

Last edited by The Don; 21st March 2019 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:32 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
It's 2:50, I'm watching the petition tally real time to see if it breaks tye million by 3 o'clock.

Eta: And the forum timestamp is off by five minutes?
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post


That turned out to be less of a race against the clock than I had anticipated!
It was up to just shy of 1.1 million but seems to have crashed again:

Quote:
Petitions is down for maintenance
We know about it and we're working on it.

Please try again later.
The BBC article on the petition has comments enabled, a good many people writing in to say they tried to sign but the site was down or they have not gotten confirmatory emails in the usual amount of time required.

Last edited by crescent; 21st March 2019 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:15 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
All of the above leads me to think that my prediction that a no-deal is a certainty is right .
I think no deal has been certain for a long time. May is determined that we will leave no matter what, but there are a lot of different ways to leave and each Leaver wants a different one. Add to that the fact that leaving will necessarily be worse than staying, and that the EU wants our leaving to be the best it can be for the EU rather than being required to go out of its way to give us everything we want without consequence, and it's no wonder that nobody can agree to a deal.

Since parliament have ruled out May's deal, Bercow has ruled out voting on it for a third time, the EU have ruled out making a new deal, the EU won't grant an extension without a deal in place, and parliament has ruled out leaving with no deal, the only two options realistically left are to have a second referendum (which the EU have said they will grant an extension for, although which carries the very real risk of Leave winning again), or to just cancel the whole thing and pretend it never happened. There's no way either of those will happen, though. Not with May and Corbyn in charge.

So on we will blunder until we crash out with no deal as a default.

The only extremely faint glimmer of hope is that May resigns or is pushed out and someone more sensible takes the reins. I'm not going to hold my breath for that, though.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:25 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Corbyn is a twat. Happy to sit down with terrorists because dialogue is the best way to change people's minds and bring differing factions together* but won't discuss Brexit solutions because there is an ex-labour party member in the room#.


* I don't necessarily disagree with this
# This I do disagree with.
As summarized by article on The Independent:
He'll meet with Hamas and the IRA – but a coffee with Chuka Umunna is a step too far for Jeremy Corbyn

Advice: Skip comments...
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:29 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
As summarized by article on The Independent:
He'll meet with Hamas and the IRA – but a coffee with Chuka Umunna is a step too far for Jeremy Corbyn

Advice: Skip comments...

Is there no consideration given to the possible benefits of meeting with each of the listed parties?

He may consider that the possible benefit of meeting with Umunna is not worth it but that holding his nose and talking to the other listed parties might save lives.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:35 AM   #252
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What are the avenues or mechanisms for rescinding A50?
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:37 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What are the avenues or mechanisms for rescinding A50?
A sane PM?

An opposition that's looking out for the country, not it's own interests?

Intervention by Cthulu?
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:57 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What are the avenues or mechanisms for rescinding A50?
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A sane PM?
That's just crazy talk.

I wonder if she got infected with something when she held Trump's hand that time? Could explain why Melania is so reluctant to do it (she wears ultra-thin latex gloves, but not everybody knows that)
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:58 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
But let's be honest, in the Parliamentary Incompetence ranks for the last few years she's definitely on the curve. There are too many Moggs, Johnsons and Davises (to name but three) to make her an outlier and it's a toss up between her and her predecessor for the title of "Most Damaging Prime Minister".
I heard a certain David Davies in an interview a day or 2 ago. And he mentioned that much of the problems were caused by the UK government not being tough enough at the start of the negotiations.

My mouth has still not closed.


For non-UK folk, David Davies was put in charge of the negotiations at the start....
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:00 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Intervention by Cthulu?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:02 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I heard a certain David Davies in an interview a day or 2 ago. And he mentioned that much of the problems were caused by the UK government not being tough enough at the start of the negotiations.

My mouth has still not closed.


For non-UK folk, David Davies was put in charge of the negotiations at the start....
David David was Brexit secretary, David Davies is my local waste of oxygen.
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:03 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Throat sweet?
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:10 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It was up to just shy of 1.1 million but seems to have crashed again:



The BBC article on the petition has comments enabled, a good many people writing in to say they tried to sign but the site was down or they have not gotten confirmatory emails in the usual amount of time required.

It's back up and currently at about 1,201,000 signatures after a day. For context, a similar partition calling for no-deal that's been going for five months or so and has 375,000 signatures (that's rounding up btw).
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:25 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Throat sweet?
Just trying to help out a bit
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:27 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
It's back up and currently at about 1,201,000 signatures after a day. For context, a similar partition calling for no-deal that's been going for five months or so and has 375,000 signatures (that's rounding up btw).
I guess there was one in 2016 that called for a second vote on Brexit if the first vote didn't get a supermajority either way - that one got more than 4 million votes.

I have a feeling that the petition won't change anything.

I also have a feeling that in about 10 years time, a great many British politicians will either be untruthfully denying that they ever voted for Brexit, of spinning like mad to explain away the vote.

The petition is up to 1.25 million and adding votes fast. I have heard that one of the previous petitions was plagued by bots and non-British people making fraudulent votes. I wonder if that is happening again or if the process has been changed somehow to prevent that.


ETA: Seems to be down again. I get a "502 Bad Gateway"

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Old 21st March 2019, 11:42 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This was the will of the people who voted to Leave remember.

They want to take it out on the ones who already left?
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:54 AM   #263
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On the BBC News just now, in introducing Bob Blackman MP (Con), it was said that he, "represents Harrow East; he voted to Leave originally, and has recently come round to backing [May's] deal." Absent was any mention of the fact that 52.52% of his constituents backed Remain (54.6% in Harrow as a whole). In contrast, Jim Fitzpatrick MP (Lab) was merely described as someone who had previously opposed May's deal, but now supported it. There was no mention that an estimated 65.79% of his constituents voted Remain.

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Old 21st March 2019, 12:00 PM   #264
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I should have prefaced my post with: I am not keeping up enough with this and have likely missed a lot of posts on this subject so, I'm asking a really basic question, not a philosophical one.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A sane PM?
The PM could do this unilaterally?

If so, I can actually see her doing so at the last possible minute, having exhausted all alternatives and in line with the parliamentary mandate to not have a no-deal exit. But as you point out, that would imply a certain level of sanity.

Quote:
An opposition that's looking out for the country, not it's own interests?
Does this mean that the parliament could do so? I don't see that happening at all.

Quote:
Intervention by Cthulu?
So, there is hope?
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:02 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
On the BBC News just now, in introducing Bob Blackman MP (Con), it was said that he, "represents Harrow East; he voted to leave originally, and has recently come round to backing [May's] deal." Absent was any mention of the fact that 52.52% of his constituents backed Remain (54.6% in Harrow as a whole). In contrast, Jim Fitzpatrick MP (Lab) was merely described as someone who had previously opposed May's deal, but now supported it. There was no mention that an estimated 65.79% of his constituents voted Remain.
Do they have no concerns about being reelected?

I really see this being a single issue that could ruin careers in any near future elections.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:07 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Do they have no concerns about being reelected?

I really see this being a single issue that could ruin careers in any near future elections.
You would think so. Meanwhile, the BBC's has and apparent constant need to identify whichever (usually Labour) Remain-supporting MPs represents a Leave majority constituency....

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Old 21st March 2019, 12:08 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Yeah, yeah. That's what they all say.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:13 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Do they have no concerns about being reelected?

I really see this being a single issue that could ruin careers in any near future elections.

You wait till they see the march on Saturday.

I suspect many politicians will start to be a little more concerned for their seats.


I also suspect that if either of the two major parties simply plonk down the same candidate in the same constituency like they do every time, they'll be in for a very rude awakening.

Whatever happens next, I'd be surprised if the next election didn't produce more new MPs than any for quite some time.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:20 PM   #269
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Jeremy Corbyn is as deluded as usual...

Quote:
Workers and businesses are rightly calling for Theresa May to change her approach to Brexit.

Labour's alternative plan would protect jobs, the economy and living standards. It could win the support of parliament and the EU, and bring the country together
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/sta...ments-47614151

....which ignores the fact that Corbyn's chosen version of Brexit is just fantastical as the "unicorns and rainbows" Brexit proposed by the ERG.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:43 PM   #270
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As usual the Daily Express seems to be living in a different world:

Quote:
One EU diplomat has conceded the unity of the EU27 has started to disintegrate for the first time in the Brexit negotiations
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/statu...ments-47614151
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:44 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The speaker has ruled that is the case but there are several "outs" available to the government which would allow them to bring the deal back for a vote including

- Voting to overrule the speaker
- Asking the queen to close the current session of parliament
Even if the Speaker is overruled, she still won't get the vote through. Nigel Dodds has said quite plainly the DUP will not vote for May's deal. She will still be short of votes.

Even if the government applies to prorogue parliament in order to open a new session (in order to bring May's deal afresh) she STILL WILL NOT GET THE NECESSARY MAJORITY.

Bloody MP's. It's all their fault.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:46 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What are the avenues or mechanisms for rescinding A50?
Has to be triggered by either a referendum or a general election, according to its author.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:01 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even if the Speaker is overruled, she still won't get the vote through. Nigel Dodds has said quite plainly the DUP will not vote for May's deal. She will still be short of votes.

Even if the government applies to prorogue parliament in order to open a new session (in order to bring May's deal afresh) she STILL WILL NOT GET THE NECESSARY MAJORITY.

Bloody MP's. It's all their fault.
But she could rack up more record setting defeats. That has to be worth something.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:05 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Is there no consideration given to the possible benefits of meeting with each of the listed parties?

He may consider that the possible benefit of meeting with Umunna is not worth it but that holding his nose and talking to the other listed parties might save lives.
SOmehow I doubt talking with ISIS is going to save lives.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:21 PM   #275
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Say what you like about the "United" Kingdom, but there's a reason why "cockup" is a British phrase.

America - you have a long way to go to get as dysfunctional as the UK.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:28 PM   #276
crescent
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
America - you have a long way to go to get as dysfunctional as the UK.
Is that a challenge?

Because if you want to make it a competition, we Yanks might just give you Limeys a run for the money.

Which is probably more depressing than funny....
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:31 PM   #277
GnaGnaMan
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In a way, you could say that Brexit and my father’s election are one and the same
-Donald Trump Jr
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It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:32 PM   #278
3point14
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOmehow I doubt talking with ISIS is going to save lives.
Talking to the IRA saved lives.
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Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:35 PM   #279
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Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
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Finally managed to authenticate signing the petition, as #1,411,868.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:36 PM   #280
jimbob
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is that a challenge?

Because if you want to make it a competition, we Yanks might just give you Limeys a run for the money.

Which is probably more depressing than funny....
There was the joke that in this competition, Britain took an early lead with Brexit, but America played its Trump
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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