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Old 26th April 2019, 02:51 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Islam. How Do We Cope?

Having just listened to Sam Harris podcast: "What Do Jihadists Really Want?", I find myself struggling to see a clear way forward for us in the West, as Islam becomes more and more prevalent.

Sam has given this talk before as he reads directly from an issue of the IS publication Dabiq, but has decided to precent it again in the wake of the recent bombings in Sri Lanka.

Reading the words of Jihardists Sam manages to dispel any misconceptions about the real motives driving the conflict. The words "We will never stop hating you until you embrace Islam" are a daunting excerpt.

Once again, (as was found in the investigations following 9/11), we find well of and educated, middle to upper class, muslims as the perpetrators and suicidal bombers. This must mute the claims of those who continue to bleat that social disadvantage is the motivation. The question about the isolation of Jihardist extremists from mainstream Muslims must also be brought into question.

Sam reads the words of a woman convert to Islam, who is exulted that her infant son was killed and hence martyred in the conflict. How can we begin to deal with people who have this degree of belief? It makes the most fanatical of Christian devotees look limp by comparison.
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Old 26th April 2019, 02:53 PM   #2
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Have you met Pauline Hanson?
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:07 PM   #3
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Let me state here quite clearly for the benefit of those not familiar with my general stance about the religious.

The religious are the biggest victims of the religion they are afflicted with and should be the object of our compassion. Closing our doors to those thus afflicted should not be an option if they are refugees.
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #4
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You will find all kinds of mindless religious bigots of every stripe extending back into the unwritten past. They exist now. Scientology is another dangerous cult of a similar type to radical Islam. This isn't whataboutism, it's simply the human condition.
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:22 PM   #5
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You're conflating militant islamofascism with Islam in general.

Coping with jihadists is one thing.

Coping with theism in general is something else entirely.

On a separate note: How many religious refugees have you taken in? Your posts here seem to be generally dismissive or antagonistic towards theists. Is it the same in your meatspace interactions?

An atheist "underground railroad" for conveying theist refugees to a better place is a grand idea. Have you ever actually put it into practice?
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:19 PM   #6
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How do we cope?

The same way we coped with Christianity when the various sects were slaughtering one another for centuries.

I lived in Muslim countries for 20+ years. Most are NOT bloody thirsty lunatic. They are as much a victim of such groups as others. There governments also use religion as a tool of social repression. Just like other religious groups beside Christians and Muslims do today.

Its a common Theist problem.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:31 PM   #7
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Yeah, spent a decade and a half in a majority Muslim country. Can report just normal folks with pretty much the same aspirations and flaws.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
How do we cope?

The same way we coped with Christianity when the various sects were slaughtering one another for centuries.

I lived in Muslim countries for 20+ years. Most are NOT bloody thirsty lunatic. They are as much a victim of such groups as others. There governments also use religion as a tool of social repression. Just like other religious groups beside Christians and Muslims do today.

Its a common Theist problem.
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yeah, spent a decade and a half in a majority Muslim country. Can report just normal folks with pretty much the same aspirations and flaws.

Yes, this is what we hear consistently when we confront the problem of radicalised religious. "There are all these nice people just like you and me who are Muslim."

I can't argue with that, accept to say there are countries where the Muslims are in absolute control, and we can see the result. It has also been illustrated in a survey taken in Egypt a few years back, that the overwhelming majority of normal folk, condoned the use of violence in response to violations against their religion.

That to one side the Sri Lanka attacks have once again shown the fanatical Jihadists have come from the aforementioned nice homes. So what's to be done? Do we just bide our time and hope for the best?

As I mentioned before excluding immigrants and refugees because they are Muslim is not an option for me. We have an obligation as humanitarians. There are practical difficulties as well in establishing just what religion a person holds as their own.

I can't see a golden bullet type solution I have to admit, but would like to hear some input from others who may have some constructive ideas. Ultimately I see the solution as being secularisation and the way forward is to speed it up.

At present in Australia the religious get special financial help allowing them to build schools, hospitals, ect. Because the Christians get this we must give the same to the Islamic or it would be discrimination. This must stop. We must stop funding the religious!

I would like to see religion taught as a compulsory subject in all schools also. Religion as a historical subject starting with the Norse, Greek, Roman and Eastern gods, then going into the detail about the development of the abrahamic god religions. Perhaps an understanding about the origins of these different faiths, will bring into focus the similarity and even absurdity of them.
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Old 27th April 2019, 03:09 PM   #9
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Pay (taxes) to play.

No more tax breaks
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, this is what we hear consistently when we confront the problem of radicalised religious. "There are all these nice people just like you and me who are Muslim."

I can't argue with that, accept to say there are countries where the Muslims are in absolute control, and we can see the result. It has also been illustrated in a survey taken in Egypt a few years back, that the overwhelming majority of normal folk, condoned the use of violence in response to violations against their religion.

That to one side the Sri Lanka attacks have once again shown the fanatical Jihadists have come from the aforementioned nice homes. So what's to be done? Do we just bide our time and hope for the best?

As I mentioned before excluding immigrants and refugees because they are Muslim is not an option for me. We have an obligation as humanitarians. There are practical difficulties as well in establishing just what religion a person holds as their own.

I can't see a golden bullet type solution I have to admit, but would like to hear some input from others who may have some constructive ideas. Ultimately I see the solution as being secularisation and the way forward is to speed it up.

At present in Australia the religious get special financial help allowing them to build schools, hospitals, ect. Because the Christians get this we must give the same to the Islamic or it would be discrimination. This must stop. We must stop funding the religious!

I would like to see religion taught as a compulsory subject in all schools also. Religion as a historical subject starting with the Norse, Greek, Roman and Eastern gods, then going into the detail about the development of the abrahamic god religions. Perhaps an understanding about the origins of these different faiths, will bring into focus the similarity and even absurdity of them.
Not sure why you are singling out Islam.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Not sure why you are singling out Islam.
I bet you can think of a reason if you think about it...
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
...snip ...I would like to see religion taught as a compulsory subject in all schools also. Religion as a historical subject starting with the Norse, Greek, Roman and Eastern gods, then going into the detail about the development of the abrahamic god religions. Perhaps an understanding about the origins of these different faiths, will bring into focus the similarity and even absurdity of them.
I completely agree with this bit.
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
I bet you can think of a reason if you think about it...
Yeah, not cherry picking but thanks.
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Having just listened to Sam Harris podcast:..
I'm surprised your ears aren't bleeding. Harris is a jerk.

How are muslim extremists more extreme than someone who shoots a doctor for performing a legal medical procedure?
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:17 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm surprised your ears aren't bleeding. Harris is a jerk.

How are muslim extremists more extreme than someone who shoots a doctor for performing a legal medical procedure?
Bodycount?
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:03 PM   #16
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm surprised your ears aren't bleeding. Harris is a jerk.

How are muslim extremists more extreme than someone who shoots a doctor for performing a legal medical procedure?
Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Bodycount?

Well said Ron Obvious. Such economy of words also.

We have to disagree on this then my trans Tasman friend, The Atheist. I think Sam Harris makes a lot of sense on many issues and this is one of them. He despairs at the politically correct utterances of so many, who suckle up to Muslim leaders mouthing "Islam is a religion of peace." and such.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:43 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well said Ron Obvious. Such economy of words also.
Lol
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Old 27th April 2019, 09:40 PM   #18
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The actual conflict isn't between Islam and the West, it is who in Islam gets to unite everyone to fight the West: it is (and has since the beginning of Islam) been a fight for leadership.
Acts of Terrorism are basically dick-measuring contests.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well said Ron Obvious. Such economy of words also.
Nonsense. Extremism isn't decided by body count.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
He despairs at the politically correct utterances of so many, who suckle up to Muslim leaders mouthing "Islam is a religion of peace." and such.
What Harris - and you - miss is that when countries have been invaded by a foreign power, it breeds extremism.

We know for certain ISIS would never have happened if USA hadn't deposed Saddam, and if they hadn't invaded A'stan, there would be 2400 fewer graves of US soldiers alone. And if I recall correctly - which I do - Iraq's invasion was run past the christian sky-fairy by both Blair and Dubbya and it told them it was a good plan. Would that not put the whole mess at the foot of christian extremists?

I tell you what - you get USA to stop invading other countries and we'll see if extremism increases or reduces.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:42 PM   #20
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I don't know what Sam Harris is bleating about this time, but I guess it's the same as usual, and Thor2 also uses it for the purpose we've become accustomed to:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Once again, (as was found in the investigations following 9/11), we find well of and educated, middle to upper class, muslims as the perpetrators and suicidal bombers. This must mute the claims of those who continue to bleat that social disadvantage is the motivation.

(The last sentence would have lost nothing in essential content if "... of those who continue to bleat that ..." had been left out, but that's Thor2 for you, I guess. He's on a mission.)

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That to one side the Sri Lanka attacks have once again shown the fanatical Jihadists have come from the aforementioned nice homes. So what's to be done? Do we just bide our time and hope for the best?

And Thor2 is not one to bide his time and hope for the best. Instead of studying the case to find out what actually motivated the attacks in Sri Lanka, he prefers to jump to conclusions. But for the rest of us, I recommend taking a look at what people who actually know something about terrorism have to say. And unlike Thor2, I'd like to begin with the Christians:

Quote:
“I think the Troubles cast a huge shadow today,” said Susan McKay, an author, journalist and documentary filmmaker from Londonderry. “The reality is that the areas from which a lot of the Troubles emanated — the poorest and most deprived parts of Northern Ireland — are still the poorest and most deprived parts of Northern Ireland.
(...)
Fifty years ago, hundreds of nationalist protesters gathered on Duke Street in Londonderry. Their demonstration, organized by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association — inspired in part by the civil rights movement in the United States — had been outlawed when unionist opponents announced plans for a rival march. The organizers resolved to protest anyhow, fired by a long-simmering discontent with what was perceived as widespread discrimination.
50 Years Later, Troubles Still Cast ‘Huge Shadow’ Over Northern Ireland (NYT, Oct. 4, 2018)

So in Northern Ireland, at least, being a members a disadvantaged, persecuted group seems to have caused the anger that made some of them turn to terrorism.
It's more difficult to make sense of what's going on in Sri Lanka, however, but why even try when you already know, like Thor2:

Quote:
Ultimately, the Easter Sunday bombings bode ill for Sri Lanka’s Muslims. Anti-Muslim sentiment, especially among nationalist Buddhists, is bound to ratchet up. Most of the dead were Sinhalese and Tamil Christians, and those groups may now join the Islamophobia bandwagon, too. Already some Muslim shops have been attacked, and Muslims fearing reprisals have fled to safer locations.
Sri Lanka’s Christians and Muslims Weren’t Enemies (FP, April 25, 2019)

But when members of religious groups resort to terror, is it then a question of religious extremism? Are you more likely to become a terrorist, the more religious you are? And let's begin with the Christians again before this study takes us to the Muslims:

Quote:
... predictors of support for paramilitaries among Catholics and Protestants. They found greater support among men, Catholics (the historically disadvantaged group), younger people and those who have themselves been exposed to violence; and reduced support among people who attend church more regularly.
(...)
Moreover, the extent to which individuals identify with a social group predicts the degree to which group deprivation and injustice are perceived ... and threats to in-group status and values are experienced.
(...)
First of all, our findings suggest that the strength of Muslim identity per se is not associated with greater support for terrorism. This is counter to common stereotypes that Muslim identity is related to support for violence ... and not consistent with previous findings linking Muslim identification with support for organisations linked with terrorism.
(...)
In fact, the Muslim community has distanced itself from the terrorist attacks and publicly condemned them as violating the true principles of Islam.
Religious and National Identity as Predictors of Attitudes towards the 7/7 bombings among British Muslims: An Analysis of UK Opinion Poll Data (Cairn Info, 2009)

So there's nothing about "educated" people from "nice homes" but much about disadvantaged groups, and it seems as if one should encourage potential terrorists to attend church regularly. However, when you look at female suicide bombers, a minority of 15% of all suicide bombers but a very 'successful' minority since they manage to kill 65% of all victims of suicide bombings, their individual social as well as 'moral' position in their societies seems to play a significant role in their motivation:

Quote:
Other research suggests that women resort to terrorism to “redeem their fallen reputations, such as being barren, divorced, defiled, unchaste, and so on.”
Female suicide bombers: Individual motivations (Wikipedia)

But let's end with another 'bleater' to find out about the educational background of terrorists before we leave the bleating to the author of the OP:

Quote:
MIA BLOOM:

Well, actually what's very interesting is, although many of the populations from which these suicide terrorists are drawn might be affected by poverty and desperation, the people that are actually chosen to carry out an attack will be the best and brightest of their population.

Part of this is involved with the fact that there are so many people, unfortunately, willing to make these kinds of sacrifices that the organizations can pick and choose from among a number of different candidates. And so, given the option, they will tend to select those that are more educated. This may make sense: A more educated individual with a university degree is less likely to mess up. They probably will speak a second language and they can more effectively blend into a civilian population. A Palestinian with a university degree in all likelihood speaks Hebrew. An Iraqi with a university degree in all likelihood speaks English.
The Motivations of Suicide Bombers PBS NewsHour, Nov. 14, 2005)

That's it for now. Bleat on!
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Old 28th April 2019, 12:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nonsense. Extremism isn't decided by body count.



What Harris - and you - miss is that when countries have been invaded by a foreign power, it breeds extremism.

We know for certain ISIS would never have happened if USA hadn't deposed Saddam, and if they hadn't invaded A'stan, there would be 2400 fewer graves of US soldiers alone. And if I recall correctly - which I do - Iraq's invasion was run past the christian sky-fairy by both Blair and Dubbya and it told them it was a good plan. Would that not put the whole mess at the foot of christian extremists?

I tell you what - you get USA to stop invading other countries and we'll see if extremism increases or reduces.
The Salafi doctrine of Sunni Islam is the basis of the ISIS ideology.
The US invasions may have been a catalyst for the present situation - but the central core of beliefs predates the US invasions by a couple of hundred years.
Like Christianity has done for centuries - members of different sects of Islam have been fighting and killing each other over whose interpretation of of their religious teachings were the "true believers" long before the US became an international power.
One is ignoring history if one states that the present state of jihadist actions is not based on long standing religious beliefs.

edited to add: The Salafi jihadist doctrine is a small subset of a subset of a particular Islamic creed so please do not think that I am lumping all Muslims into that group.
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Old 28th April 2019, 03:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, this is what we hear consistently when we confront the problem of radicalised religious. "There are all these nice people just like you and me who are Muslim."

I can't argue with that, accept to say there are countries where the Muslims are in absolute control, and we can see the result.
Yes: countries where the overwhelming majority of people (99%) are peaceful and don't commit terrorism.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
At present in Australia the religious get special financial help allowing them to build schools, hospitals, ect.
Those monsters! Deliberately building schools and hospitals!

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Because the Christians get this we must give the same to the Islamic or it would be discrimination. This must stop. We must stop funding the religious!
It has to do with a couple of things: (1) a non-profit status. (2) a history of organising towards helping the poor, starting at a time when the government of the time didn't. Atheists could potentially organise to build schools and hospitals and receive funding from government.

Countries like the USA and the UK have been involved in many wars, and are still involved in conflicts today. This breeds resentments around the world. I'm not trying to excuse Islamic terrorism in any way, but we need to be honest about the root causes of terrorism. One of the causes of terrorism is a perceived interference by a powerful country against a smaller country. If some Muslims didn't feel under threat, I would say that Islamic terrorism would disappear.

Last edited by GDon; 28th April 2019 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 28th April 2019, 05:48 AM   #23
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Amen to that, GDon!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #24
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Muslim leaders feel constantly under threat - most of the time from other Muslim leaders.
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Old 28th April 2019, 10:10 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Having just listened to Sam Harris podcast: "What Do Jihadists Really Want?", I find myself struggling to see a clear way forward for us in the West, as Islam becomes more and more prevalent.

Sam has given this talk before as he reads directly from an issue of the IS publication Dabiq, but has decided to precent it again in the wake of the recent bombings in Sri Lanka.

Reading the words of Jihardists Sam manages to dispel any misconceptions about the real motives driving the conflict. The words "We will never stop hating you until you embrace Islam" are a daunting excerpt.

Once again, (as was found in the investigations following 9/11), we find well of and educated, middle to upper class, muslims as the perpetrators and suicidal bombers. This must mute the claims of those who continue to bleat that social disadvantage is the motivation. The question about the isolation of Jihardist extremists from mainstream Muslims must also be brought into question.

Sam reads the words of a woman convert to Islam, who is exulted that her infant son was killed and hence martyred in the conflict. How can we begin to deal with people who have this degree of belief? It makes the most fanatical of Christian devotees look limp by comparison.
Why do you think I have been criticising the Quran since 2001. The way to stop Islamic terrorism is to prove the Quran is not the words of God.

We in the west have the education that many in the middle east do not and it is easy to see the Quran is full of flaws. What we have to do is prove it by uniting scholars in a concerted effort to show the things wrong with this book.

The war against Islamic terrorism can be won in a library by scholars without firing a shot. Mind you I am talking about the end of Islam as a belief system.
It will probably take a generation or two to accomplish this.
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Old 28th April 2019, 10:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why do you think I have been criticising the Quran since 2001. The way to stop Islamic terrorism is to prove the Quran is not the words of God.

We in the west have the education that many in the middle east do not and it is easy to see the Quran is full of flaws. What we have to do is prove it by uniting scholars in a concerted effort to show the things wrong with this book.

The war against Islamic terrorism can be won in a library by scholars without firing a shot. Mind you I am talking about the end of Islam as a belief system.
It will probably take a generation or two to accomplish this.


Why do you think I've been criticizing the Bible since 1977? The way to stop Christian Fundamentalism is to prove the Bible is not the word of God.

We in the Northeast urban centers have the education that many in the flyover states do not, and it's easy to see the Bible is full of flaws. What we have to do is prove it by uniting scholars in a concerted effort to show what is wrong with this book.

The war against Christian Fundamentalism can be won in a library by scholars without firing a single Kim Davis. Mind you I'm talking about the end of Christianity as a belief system.

It will probably take a generation or two to accomplish this.

I'm sorry Scorpian. I couldn't help myself. But 200 years of Bible scholarship of the objective rational kind has not only not put a dent in Christian Fundamentalism, Reaction to it is in part one of the reasons for its rise.
I don't think this would make a dent in Islam either. In my years I've come to see how entrenched religious beliefs are.
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Old 28th April 2019, 01:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The Salafi doctrine of Sunni Islam is the basis of the ISIS ideology.
The US invasions may have been a catalyst for the present situation - but the central core of beliefs predates the US invasions by a couple of hundred years.
You need to dig a bit deeper - the beliefs are irrelevant.

Almost all of the operational, military and intelligence command came from Saddam's senior ranking army officers. This is not news.

Without the skills and weaponry those guys brought, ISIS would have remained a small group of nutters with no impact on the world.
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Old 28th April 2019, 02:01 PM   #28
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So we get the usual avalanche of "This has happened because we did this before." and "Christianity and other faiths have done worse etc." The usual pointing at extremists as being just a fraction of all the nice Muslims living in our midst and so on. The fact that it has been clearly shown so many times now that the Jihadists are drawn from these same nice families is just ignored.

Ok if we can get over this now and recognise we have a problem, it would be a good start. Does anyone have any ideas about positive steps that can be taken to elevate the problem? As I said before I don't think shutting our doors is an option, because we must show compassion for those in need.
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Old 28th April 2019, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So we get the usual avalanche of "This has happened because we did this before." and "Christianity and other faiths have done worse etc." The usual pointing at extremists as being just a fraction of all the nice Muslims living in our midst and so on. The fact that it has been clearly shown so many times now that the Jihadists are drawn from these same nice families is just ignored.

Ok if we can get over this now and recognise we have a problem, it would be a good start. Does anyone have any ideas about positive steps that can be taken to elevate the problem? As I said before I don't think shutting our doors is an option, because we must show compassion for those in need.
Write to Rupert Murdoch? He loves to elevate these problems.
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Old 28th April 2019, 02:14 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nonsense. Extremism isn't decided by body count.



What Harris - and you - miss is that when countries have been invaded by a foreign power, it breeds extremism.

We know for certain ISIS would never have happened if USA hadn't deposed Saddam, and if they hadn't invaded A'stan, there would be 2400 fewer graves of US soldiers alone. And if I recall correctly - which I do - Iraq's invasion was run past the christian sky-fairy by both Blair and Dubbya and it told them it was a good plan. Would that not put the whole mess at the foot of christian extremists?

I tell you what - you get USA to stop invading other countries and we'll see if extremism increases or reduces.

What you fail to give Harris credit for, is he is one person who is trying to take positive steps, toward solving the problem. You have heard of the book "Islam and the Future of Tolerance" he produced in collaboration with Maajid Nawaz have you?

Sure many things have been done by the USA and others in the West, that should not have been done. This is undeniable, but bleating about it does not solve the problem. What is to be done now?
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Old 28th April 2019, 02:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Write to Rupert Murdoch? He loves to elevate these problems.

OK so alleviate then.

I would rather see some constructive comment.
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Old 28th April 2019, 03:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
OK so alleviate then.

I would rather see some constructive comment.
I would be fascinated to hear your solutions, OP.
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Old 28th April 2019, 03:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're conflating militant islamofascism with Islam in general.

Coping with jihadists is one thing.

Coping with theism in general is something else entirely.

On a separate note: How many religious refugees have you taken in? Your posts here seem to be generally dismissive or antagonistic towards theists. Is it the same in your meatspace interactions?

An atheist "underground railroad" for conveying theist refugees to a better place is a grand idea. Have you ever actually put it into practice?
Let us just say that the believers in any religion I know know I have none and a firm belief that none should be able to harass others who are lucky enough or smart enough not to get trapped into one.
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Old 28th April 2019, 03:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So we get the usual avalanche of "This has happened because we did this before." and "Christianity and other faiths have done worse etc." The usual pointing at extremists as being just a fraction of all the nice Muslims living in our midst and so on. The fact that it has been clearly shown so many times now that the Jihadists are drawn from these same nice families is just ignored.



Ok if we can get over this now and recognise we have a problem, it would be a good start. Does anyone have any ideas about positive steps that can be taken to elevate the problem? As I said before I don't think shutting our doors is an option, because we must show compassion for those in need.
I find it strange that if you say the Troubles were a conflict between Roman catholics and protestants people are very quick to point out that it wasn't a "religious" conflict beacuse of x, y and z, yet when there is a conflict between Muslims they want to ignore history, discrimination, poverty and so on and simply say it is a religious conflict. Hardly anything in human behaviour is black and white, there are myriad of entangled reasons and so on behind every conflict, if we want to stop conflict we have to take the time to understand the conflict and not simply say "it's religion" as if that explains it all.
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Old 28th April 2019, 03:33 PM   #35
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Does formal political/religious doctrine have anything at all to do with personal/social behavior? Is it a source of social approval of a given set of predilections and attitudes? Does it shape what is considered right and wrong, permissible and not so? What disgusts, and invites revulsion?

Not usually. Most of the time, humans are amygdala-driven emo freaks who rationalize like champions; the smarter, the better. Moreover, humans, as social animals, use the theory of mind to manage social life and communicate; there is an implicit recognition of a "there" being "there" in each of us. Taking another life is a violent denial of our recognizably common humanity; most people are reluctant to do so.

Observably, in almost every case of an act of terrorism, the perpetrators explain the motives for their actions, the driving narrative and the truths that enable them to kill.

Point 1: Believers/Nonbelievers are humans; they are like everyone else, absent other factors. Nice enough folks. "Would never have guessed."
Point 2: Deliberate, purposeful behaviors based on politic, religion, or some general driving narrative, such as white nationalism, take on the moral codes thereof. These moral codes grant/deny common humanity, shape what is/isn't allowed.
Point 3: Observation: The narratives repeated by terrorists/dictators/Torquemadas include the memes that are used to directly dehumanize or severely judge others, authorizing their execution.

The homework, then, would be to examine all politics, faiths, and social narratives to see what memes they serve to their adherents.... And I'll stop there, because we don't do homework on ISF; we defend the amygdala.

So, a plague on all the houses of Abraham, the would-be baby-killer and patriach, for when men believe they rub shoulders with the gods, they lose their minds.
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Old 28th April 2019, 04:34 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What is to be done now?
Stop blaming muslims in general.
Stop drone attacks.
Stop selling Saudi arms.
Get out of Afghanistan.

If you start with those few, give it a decade and see if extremism has increased or decreased.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So, a plague on all the houses of Abraham, the would-be baby-killer and patriach, for when men believe they rub shoulders with the gods, they lose their minds.
Amen.
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Old 28th April 2019, 04:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I would be fascinated to hear your solutions, OP.
Well I did have this tacked on to the end of a post you responded to.


Quote:
I can't see a golden bullet type solution I have to admit, but would like to hear some input from others who may have some constructive ideas. Ultimately I see the solution as being secularisation and the way forward is to speed it up.

At present in Australia the religious get special financial help allowing them to build schools, hospitals, ect. Because the Christians get this we must give the same to the Islamic or it would be discrimination. This must stop. We must stop funding the religious!

I would like to see religion taught as a compulsory subject in all schools also. Religion as a historical subject starting with the Norse, Greek, Roman and Eastern gods, then going into the detail about the development of the abrahamic god religions. Perhaps an understanding about the origins of these different faiths, will bring into focus the similarity and even absurdity of them.

I would really, really, like to hear some ideas about how to tackle the problem here.
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Old 28th April 2019, 06:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why do you think I have been criticising the Quran since 2001. The way to stop Islamic terrorism is to prove the Quran is not the words of God.
Well, that and also if people stop bombing them and invading their countries.
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Old 28th April 2019, 10:04 PM   #39
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For constructive solutions?

1: Secularization in the west, especially forbidding religiously founded education. This will at least severely limit home grown terrorists. But the likelihood of that happening is near 0 as the christian majorities in all these countries will block that
2: Removal of tax exemption for religions, but again, that will be blocked by the Christians
3: Force a compromise in the palestine-israely conflict that actually is at least partially acceptable to the muslim majority. This should most likely include partition of Jerusalem and reversal of (part) of the colonization process. Veto chance by the US 100%
4: Stop using so much drugs which fund the Taliban. Yeah right.
5: Stop using oil and fully switch to alternative methods, so the governments funding the largest terrorist organizations simply can't do that anymore. Maybe 20 years or so? And that's optimistic.
6: In conjunction with 5, actually invest part of our wealth in the west back into the poorer regions of the world in a way that benefits the majority of people, not a select few, thus removing the resentment that radicalism currently can use. Again, that would take at least 2/3 generations AND slows growth in the west to benefit everyone, so that's like socialism/communism and will be vetoed by the US and most European populist movements.
7. Treat terrorists as individuals, don't tar everyone following their religion with the same brush.

It's easy to say there is no major christian terrorism at the moment, but that is not something inherent to christianity, but rather the fact that most christian countries are actually quite rich. But in poor countries things like the Army of the Lord happily spring up. And if you get told every day in most media that everyone following your, your parents and grandparents religion is a closet terrorist, that resentment gives a nice feeding ground to grow terrorists.

But given the current political situation in the world, I do not see that happening. In which case, its the price the west pays for its wealth and it's up to time I guess.
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Old 28th April 2019, 11:36 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And if you get told every day in most media that everyone following your, your parents and grandparents religion is a closet terrorist, that resentment gives a nice feeding ground to grow terrorists.
It's rather ironic that the constant demonisation of an entire religion itself contributes to radicalisation. There's a good reason right there to stop doing it.
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