ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th June 2019, 07:48 AM   #1
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,382
New York state bans declawing

BBC News: Cat declawing - Should it be banned, and why does it happen in the US?

"New York might become the first US state to ban cat declawing.

In a bipartisan move on Tuesday, lawmakers voted to make the procedure illegal, except where it is medically necessary for the cat.

The governor, Andrew Cuomo, needs to review and sign the bill before it becomes law.

Critics say cat declawing - which involves cutting off a segment of the bone attached to the claw - is "barbaric and inhumane".

But the New York Veterinary Medical Society has argued that it should still be an option when otherwise the cat might be abandoned or put down.

Cat declawing is already illegal in many countries in Europe, including the UK, as well as Brazil, Israel, Australia and New Zealand."

One down, 49 to go...
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 07:58 AM   #2
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Critics say cat declawing - which involves cutting off a segment of the bone attached to the claw - is "barbaric and inhumane".
Considering that the cat is jumping arround merrily the next day, it doesn't sound too traumatic for them. And it does wonders for furniture and skin. I'm not a cat person, but were declawing not legal in my area I wouldn't consider getting one in any case.

For some reason, cutting off reproductive bits isn't "barbaric and inhumane".
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #3
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,709
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Considering that the cat is jumping arround merrily the next day, it doesn't sound too traumatic for them. And it does wonders for furniture and skin. I'm not a cat person, but were declawing not legal in my area I wouldn't consider getting one in any case.

For some reason, cutting off reproductive bits isn't "barbaric and inhumane".
Cats that go outdoors use their claws for defence and to help climb trees when escaping from danger (and when climbing for fun, obviously).

If you can't stand having furniture shredded then don't get a cat, I'd say. I'm amazed the practice is allowed.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 08:57 AM   #4
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Cats that go outdoors use their claws for defence and to help climb trees when escaping from danger (and when climbing for fun, obviously).
Sure, but I wouldn't let my cat go outside in the first place. It's not supposed to be there, killing all sorts of wildlife and getting hit by a car.

Quote:
If you can't stand having furniture shredded then don't get a cat, I'd say.
I'd say, get the claws removed.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:21 AM   #5
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,407
Anecdotal evidence: My parents had two of their cats declawed. Both became psychos.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:22 AM   #6
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,709
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sure, but I wouldn't let my cat go outside in the first place. It's not supposed to be there, killing all sorts of wildlife and getting hit by a car.

I'd say, get the claws removed.
"Not supposed" to be there? What the hell is "supposed" supposed to mean?

Seems you'd deprive it of any access to anything resembling its natural environment yet protect your furniture from the very same cat?

Would you have a dog debarked, for your convenience?
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:28 AM   #7
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Not supposed" to be there? What the hell is "supposed" supposed to mean?
I'm pretty sure it's sufficiently a common word that you know exactly what it means.

The only cats you'd find in the wild in my area are domestic cats whose owners let roam. They're not a natural occurence.

Quote:
Seems you'd deprive it of any access to anything resembling its natural environment yet protect your furniture from the very same cat?
Meh, weak. Humans' natural environment is also the wild. We do quite fine indoors. Besides you can take a cat out on a leash, which is required in my city anyway.

You know you don't need to find a moral angle on this, right? You don't need to take offense.

Quote:
Would you have a dog debarked, for your convenience?
I might, actually, depending on how barky it is.

I'll remind you that getting a pet is almost always a decision of convenience: you essentially enslave a living being to have some companionship. I'm sure you don't mind that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:32 AM   #8
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,060
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Anecdotal evidence: My parents had two of their cats declawed. Both became psychos.
Have you ever met a cat that wasn't a psycho? It's part of the underlying nature of cats.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:42 AM   #9
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,041
I'm conflicted. We had one cat declawed, maybe 25 years ago. He limped for a couple of days, and then we caught him running around, and resuming the fake limp when he saw us. I've seen dogs fake injuries like that too.

Every cat we have gotten since then, we have gotten from the shelter, already de-clawed. Our thought was that it wouldn't be fair to have one with claws fighting with the non-clawed roomate cat. So they have all been grandfathered in that way since then.

I'm sure that it sucks for the cat, and I don't know if I'd do it today. We're probably getting another one this summer. I don't know if we will get one with claws or look for one that's already de-clawed from the shelter again. Probably the latter.


ETA - all our cats have been affectionate, come when you call them, non-psychos.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:43 AM   #10
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,605
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

I'll remind you that getting a pet is almost always a decision of convenience: you essentially enslave a living being to have some companionship. I'm sure you don't mind that.
But it was already in the slave store, and at least being enslaved by me is a pretty excellent setup. When I have pet, I usually feel like I am the slave.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:44 AM   #11
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Considering that the cat is jumping arround merrily the next day, it doesn't sound too traumatic for them. And it does wonders for furniture and skin. I'm not a cat person, but were declawing not legal in my area I wouldn't consider getting one in any case.

For some reason, cutting off reproductive bits isn't "barbaric and inhumane".
The cat is not jumping around merrily the next day. The cat is obviously in pain whenever it puts pressure on the front paws (like when it tries to walk or use the litter box). It’s cruel and I’m surprised any veterinarian would agree to perform the procedure.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:46 AM   #12
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,062
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Seems you'd deprive it of any access to anything resembling its natural environment yet protect your furniture from the very same cat?
The domestic house cat originally evolved in the North African region and was probably domesticated somewhere in North Africa or the middle east. Its "natural environment" is thousands of miles away from North America and Europe (places where most of the posters on this forum live). So even if you let it go outside (which is foolish to do, given the risk of injury to the cat as well as its affect on wildlife), it is till not in its "natural environment".

Cats are adaptable creatures. They can be quite content living indoors.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:46 AM   #13
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,060
I wouldn't have a cat declawed but I would have it circumsized, so the other cats in the locker room wouldn't make fun of it.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

Last edited by TragicMonkey; 6th June 2019 at 09:47 AM.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:51 AM   #14
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,814
Wonderful news! Cat declawing is an obscenity.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:51 AM   #15
rdwight
Critical Thinker
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 458
"Barbaric and inhumane" seems over the top but I honestly never thought anything of it so might need to process a bit more. Family had a number of cats growing up, all declawed. Mostly indoor but given the chance would escape outside. Never came back hurt and would guess any predator that could catch and kill them wouldn't be fended off any better if they had their front claws.

Although everyone has mentioned furniture, I would think more in the lines of it being a concern for parents of younger children looking to get a cat. With how scared current parents seem to be of everything, wouldn't surprise me if adoptions would drop.
rdwight is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:52 AM   #16
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The cat is not jumping around merrily the next day. The cat is obviously in pain whenever it puts pressure on the front paws (like when it tries to walk or use the litter box).
Not in my experience or that of friends of mine who've had a cat. I suppose every cat is different. In any case, soon enough after the operation the cat learns to jump without the claws and doesn't seem to have any issues with it.

I have no problem with people who _don't_ declaw their pets, especially if they take them outside. I do have a problem with the choice being removed, given the above, and with people who let their cats out without a leash to control them.

And as stated earlier, if we're ok with "owning" other living beings and removing their reproductive organs -- essentially their reasons for living -- I don't have an issue with declawing.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:53 AM   #17
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,062
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
For some reason, cutting off reproductive bits isn't "barbaric and inhumane".
Spaying or neutering is done to prevent overpopulation (which results in more cats that will probably have to be euthanized because people can't find homes.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:56 AM   #18
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Spaying or neutering is done to prevent overpopulation
Which is relevant to my comment how? It's still forcibly removing a part of their anatomy and causing them pain and anguish. I know, because I got my rabbit neutered last December and he didn't appreciate it at the time. For some reason the "overpopulation" angle makes it ok? It's not as if it's mandatory.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 09:57 AM   #19
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,041
I vaguely remember a two-fer package at the vet - declaw the same time as neutering.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:03 AM   #20
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,605
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which is relevant to my comment how? It's still forcibly removing a part of their anatomy and causing them pain and anguish. I know, because I got my rabbit neutered last December and he didn't appreciate it at the time. For some reason the "overpopulation" angle makes it ok? It's not as if it's mandatory.
I think it's mandatory for shelter pets now, although I'm sure that varies by state or even county.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:06 AM   #21
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,403
Breaking News: You can trim a cat's nails!!!


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #22
bytewizard
Master Poster
 
bytewizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In the woods
Posts: 2,015
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sure, but I wouldn't let my cat go outside in the first place. It's not supposed to be there, killing all sorts of wildlife and getting hit by a car.



I'd say, get the claws removed.
You nailed it!
bytewizard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #23
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,709
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm pretty sure it [supposed]'s sufficiently a common word that you know exactly what it means.
Supposed presumes the existence of an authority whose judgement we follow. "Cats are supposed to be indoors" has no such authority backing it up. I'm equally certain that you realise this. Perhaps you regret the use of the word supposed?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The only cats you'd find in the wild in my area are domestic cats whose owners let roam. They're not a natural occurence.
In what way are the totally indoor cats "natural" when they've had their claws removed? Are there no feral cats round your way either?
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:18 AM   #24
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,403
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Supposed presumes the existence of an authority whose judgement we follow. "Cats are supposed to be indoors" has no such authority backing it up. I'm equally certain that you realise this. Perhaps you regret the use of the word supposed?



In what way are the totally indoor cats "natural" when they've had their claws removed? Are there no feral cats round your way either?
In fairness, GlennB, this might be a city-slicker/big-towner thing.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:19 AM   #25
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Supposed presumes the existence of an authority whose judgement we follow.
No, it does not. That's your interpretation, and it wasn't, obviously, the meaning I used.

"You're not supposed to go outside at -40 degrees without a coat!" Yes, I'm sure there's some sort of authority for that.

Quote:
I'm equally certain that you realise this.
Are we going to quibble over the use of an obvious english word, now? "Supposed to" refers to an expectation in context. Now stop the semantic stuff and let's discuss the merits of clawing or declawing.

Quote:
Perhaps you regret the use of the word supposed?
I don't regret anything. I meant exactly what I said: domestic cats aren't indigenous to North America and so they're not supposed to be left outside unsupervised.

Quote:
In what way are the totally indoor cats "natural" when they've had their claws removed?
Where did I claim they were "natural"? I said the exact opposite!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:20 AM   #26
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,713
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Cat declawing - Should it be banned, and why does it happen in the US?

"New York might become the first US state to ban cat declawing.

In a bipartisan move on Tuesday, lawmakers voted to make the procedure illegal, except where it is medically necessary for the cat.

The governor, Andrew Cuomo, needs to review and sign the bill before it becomes law.

Critics say cat declawing - which involves cutting off a segment of the bone attached to the claw - is "barbaric and inhumane".

But the New York Veterinary Medical Society has argued that it should still be an option when otherwise the cat might be abandoned or put down.

Cat declawing is already illegal in many countries in Europe, including the UK, as well as Brazil, Israel, Australia and New Zealand."

One down, 49 to go...
I have never had a cat declawed, and probably never will. I'm ambivalent as to whether it should be illegal, considering that the alternative might be having the cat euthanized, or abandoning it or giving it to a shelter. FYI, the anatomical equivalent for a human would be amputating the last joint of each finger (or toe, if the back feet are done, but I think it's more common to just do the front claws).
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:21 AM   #27
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 31,536
I once saw a declawed cat, that had gotten out of it's house, try and escape a large dog by climbing a wooden fence. Since it didn't have it's front claws, but still had the hind ones, it sort of repelled off the fence, right into the dogs mouth. The dog shook it like a rag doll until it was dead. Horrific.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:24 AM   #28
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,713
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
But it was already in the slave store, and at least being enslaved by me is a pretty excellent setup. When I have pet, I usually feel like I am the slave.
I'm pretty sure that cats' view of the situation is that people are their slaves. Dogs, OTOH, seem perfectly willing to at least pretend that they are the slaves.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:24 AM   #29
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,403
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...I don't regret anything. I meant exactly what I said: domestic cats aren't indigenous to North America and so they're not supposed to be left outside unsupervised...
Rattus rattus and rattus norvegicus ain't indigenous either.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:27 AM   #30
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I have never had a cat declawed, and probably never will. I'm ambivalent as to whether it should be illegal, considering that the alternative might be having the cat euthanized, or abandoning it or giving it to a shelter. FYI, the anatomical equivalent for a human would be amputating the last joint of each finger (or toe, if the back feet are done, but I think it's more common to just do the front claws).
With the crucial difference that cats can't grasp things in their paws anyway. And considering how declawed cats merrily jump around, it doesn't seem to hinder them in any way. Almost seems like the last joint is only there for the claws.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:29 AM   #31
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Rattus rattus and rattus norvegicus ain't indigenous either.
...and? Are you arguing that, since invasive species have already been introduced, one more is ok? What is your argument, anyway?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:29 AM   #32
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,280
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Breaking News: You can trim a cat's nails!!!


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
That’s what we did with our cats.
We lived in an appartment on the first floor so they couldn’t go out (except for the loggia).
But trimming the nails every once in a while was enough to never have any problems with our furniture. Their climb and scratch pole, though looked like it had done something really bad to the cats and was punished accordingly by them.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:40 AM   #33
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,039
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post


I don't regret anything. I meant exactly what I said: domestic cats aren't indigenous to North America and so they're not supposed to be left outside unsupervised.


Non sequitur. Why does not being indigenous have anything to do with where they are supposed to be? Does being non-indigenous mean they are "supposed" to be indoors? I get the idea that your preference would be that they not exist at all.

Is it your opinion that none of the animals in the link should be outdoors unsupervised?

https://thefluidlens.com/2016/05/25/...north-america/
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:43 AM   #34
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 23,702
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Cats that go outdoors use their claws for defence and to help climb trees when escaping from danger (and when climbing for fun, obviously).

If you can't stand having furniture shredded then don't get a cat, I'd say. I'm amazed the practice is allowed.
It's like removing a dog's voicebox because you really want a dog but can't stand all the barking.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:50 AM   #35
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,060
There are so many threads right now about the ethics of various medical practices. I wonder, is it okay to euthanize a cat if it requests it? What if the cat desires a sex change? Does either answer change if the cat is an illegal immigrant, or a Russian spy whale? If the cat transitions to female will Biden pet it more? If it's traumatized by Biden and doesn't have claws to scratch him with, could the cat request Biden be euthanized?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:51 AM   #36
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Non sequitur. Why does not being indigenous have anything to do with where they are supposed to be? Does being non-indigenous mean they are "supposed" to be indoors? I get the idea that your preference would be that they not exist at all.
Why did you not read the whole post where I explain what the word means?

If they're not indigenous, then they're not expected ("supposed") to be there.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:53 AM   #37
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,113
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's like removing a dog's voicebox because you really want a dog but can't stand all the barking.
Some people actually do this. I had a neighbor who had a dog like that. A good thing, too, since the thing barked at air most of the time.

Myself, I'd rather pick a dog that just didn't bark a lot instead, than to have to operate it for that. However, I don't find such an operation to be morally wrong.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:53 AM   #38
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,039
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...and? Are you arguing that, since invasive species have already been introduced, one more is ok? What is your argument, anyway?
One "more" is actually one that was introduced early in the invasive species process. Cats have been here for hundreds of years and trying to turn back the clock is futile.

The CVMA seems to disagree with you on the topic of pain. They are officially opposed to de-clawing and I suspect the majority of Canadian vets will follow their recommendations.

Point of interest - I have owned spaniels, springer and cocker, for more than 40 years. all of my dogs have had their tails docked to breed standard. I gave this little thought. Recently the CVMA has come out against tail and ear docking for dogs. I have decided that I agree with this and any future spaniels in our home will be long-tailed dogs.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #39
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,060
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The cat is not jumping around merrily the next day. The cat is obviously in pain whenever it puts pressure on the front paws (like when it tries to walk or use the litter box). It’s cruel and I’m surprised any veterinarian would agree to perform the procedure.
I know most vets in my city won't do the procedure anymore.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #40
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,062
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote:
Spaying or neutering is done to prevent overpopulation
Which is relevant to my comment how? It's still forcibly removing a part of their anatomy and causing them pain and anguish. I know, because I got my rabbit neutered last December and he didn't appreciate it at the time. For some reason the "overpopulation" angle makes it ok? It's not as if it's mandatory.
The problem is that overpopulation also causes pain and anguish... unadopted cats can either become feral (Where they kill birds and other animals, often painfully), or take up space in shelters (where they often have to be put down due to overcrowding.)

So you have your pet fixed (causing a little immediate pain), so you don't run the risk of having a lot of little cats running around that end up either suffering themselves, or inflicting suffering on other animals.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.