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Old 10th June 2019, 02:17 PM   #121
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If I earned enough to pay for my own insurance, or could be covered under Obamacare, they yes, I would still be better off in the U.S.
My income is so pitiful that I got most of my Obamacare premiums back. But idiotically, I haven't used Obamacare for much of anything even though I'm way overdue for a thorough physical workup. My insurance company is even hounding me to find a doc and get a slew of screenings.

ETA:
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As I pointed out before, my particular career (University educated/technology) is the type that is usually salaried and the type that employers would probably offer health insurance as part of the compensation.
You are probably of an age to never rely on a "gig economy," but the employer-based insurance model is becoming quite frayed around the edges. It's a WWII artifact, when health care was considered a "fringe benefit." Health insurance was not even a blip on the radar when I joined the full-time workforce at age 20. Now it's often the only reason people stay in jobs they hate.

It's actually quite strange IMO that dental insurance is not considered a basic benefit. Don't know Bernie's position on it but aside from fancy cosmetic dentistry it's a pretty basic need.

Last edited by Minoosh; 10th June 2019 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:49 PM   #122
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
My income is so pitiful that I got most of my Obamacare premiums back. But idiotically, I haven't used Obamacare for much of anything even though I'm way overdue for a thorough physical workup. My insurance company is even hounding me to find a doc and get a slew of screenings.
Admittedly that sounds a little weird. I'm not disputing you, but people generally assume insurance companies would prefer you to NOT use medical care to keep costs down.

(Unless of course they think that running screening tests can keep costs down in the long run by catching certain diseases early.)
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As I pointed out before, my particular career (University educated/technology) is the type that is usually salaried and the type that employers would probably offer health insurance as part of the compensation.
My employer offers health insurance. To have the second lowest tier they offer, I would be paying over $400 a month. This insurance would still require me to pay a significant amount out of pocket for treatment, services, or medication. I have refused an ambulance and driven to the emergency room to save hundreds of dollars, for instance, when an ankle was sprained badly enough that I thought it was broken. I don't quite think you understand that having insurance through your employer is still no guarantee that you can get a treatment, get in to see a doctor, or even be able to afford care when you need it.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #124
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Universal health care has one great advantage: peace of mind.

Not that Bernie's campaign promises are likely to be any more bankable than the next politician's.

But don't let that reassure you, Cain. Keep right on trembling. It'll help you stay warm.
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Old 10th June 2019, 07:25 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
DEATH PANELS!!!!
Death spaniels. That's what I would like to see. Socilist death spaniels.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:14 PM   #126
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Yes, waiting lists are dreadful. Far better to not have access to that treatment at all.

"Better dead than red", just, um, litterally.


Also, in lots of "socialist" countries you still have private clinics and hospitals, so if you don't want to wait for a treatment, operation, or examination, just go have it done at some private practictioner, just like in the US. I remember when they were mass-vaccinating against the swine flu and there were hour-long lines at the free-of-charge public vaccination places. I just decided to have the shot at a private clinic.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:21 PM   #127
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The really scary thing about affordable, fair healthcare is that people will like it.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:42 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You should have “left it” before posting it in the first place, not after reminding how much of how racist you are this place is.
FTFY
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I have always said that Americans would rather see their country burn than take the risk that someone, somewhere, might get something they don't deserve.
I have always said Scandanavians are so self-loathing they'd rather hang themselves than breathe oxygen that could be used for a Somali.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:48 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right. It's cloaked in some sort of psychology argument about how people with children are more likely to care about the future (which isn't true), but upon inspection it's pretty clear that the "future" we're meant to care about is that of whites.
Right, I want people I can't stand to breed. Skeptics and their brilliant logic.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:04 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Even I, with my extremely limited understanding of politics, am well aware that the United States cannot by definition become anything even close to what Venezuela is, because Venezuela has a centralized government and the US has a federal government
Not only that but demographics play a huge role. Socialism in Japan is different from socialism is Brazil or socialism in Zimbabwe.

When you mix different racial and ethnic groups, "socialism" breaks down. One ethnic or racial group pays more, they start feeling resented. The other group feels attacked. It is what it is. It's an immutable law of nature. No country will ever be "above" it. To hear these childless Euopreans, who live in a 95% white country that's struggling to pay for their welfare states while being covered by the US military security blanket get on their high horse is just cringe. I mean stomach turning cringe.

Last edited by Baylor; 10th June 2019 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:25 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not only that but demographics play a huge role. Socialism in Japan is different from socialism is Brazil or socialism in Zimbabwe.

When you mix different racial and ethnic groups, "socialism" breaks down. One ethnic or racial group pays more, they start feeling resented. The other group feels attacked. It is what it is. It's an immutable law of nature. No country will ever be "above" it. To hear these childless Euopreans, who live in a 95% white country that's struggling to pay for their welfare states while being covered by the US military security blanket get on their high horse is just cringe. I mean stomach turning cringe.
I cringe at your use of the word "cringe." Indeed, it is cringeworthy. Nay, a fine example of cringeworthiness. You see, "cringe" is a verb; the adjective is "cringeworthy" and the noun is "cringeworthiness."

Your last sentence's finish would be correctly worded, "...get on their high horse is just cringeworthy. I mean stomach-turning cringeworthiness."
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:39 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
We had a liberal presidency from 2009 to 2017. The economy recovered, millions got healthcare, unemployment plummeted, and we didn't start any new wars. (Didn't get out of the old ones, either.) Oh, and killed Osama Bin Laden.
We didn't start any new wars????

Sure if you don't include Libya, Syria and Yemen. And don't forget the war in the shadows, the drone strikes.

p.s. Just think our first black President helped to bring back African slavery in Libya. How's that for an accomplishment?
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:39 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The really scary thing about affordable, fair healthcare is that people will like it.
Brown people!

-eta-
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
My employer offers health insurance. To have the second lowest tier they offer, I would be paying over $400 a month. This insurance would still require me to pay a significant amount out of pocket for treatment, services, or medication. I have refused an ambulance and driven to the emergency room to save hundreds of dollars, for instance, when an ankle was sprained badly enough that I thought it was broken. I don't quite think you understand that having insurance through your employer is still no guarantee that you can get a treatment, get in to see a doctor, or even be able to afford care when you need it.
In my eyes as absurd as having to refuse a police cruiser or fire truck. I don't understand people who don't think that at least emergency services should be freely available to everyone?
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Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 10th June 2019 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:51 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Brown people!

-eta-

In my eyes as absurd as having to refuse a police cruiser or fire truck. I don't understand people who don't think that at least emergency services should be freely available to everyone?
"I don't understand why the entire world doesn't think like I do. I don't understand why the entire world doesn't work like it does in sexless, childless, aging Northern Europe."
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:14 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"I don't understand why the entire world doesn't think like I do. I don't understand why the entire world doesn't work like it does in sexless, childless, aging Northern Europe eastern Washington."
There you go. All fixed.

By the way, just because couples may not have children, does not mean ‘sexless’

Have you ever visited Europe? Have you ever even left your state?
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:07 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"I don't understand why the entire world doesn't think like I do. I don't understand why the entire world doesn't work like it does in sexless, childless, aging Northern Europe."
Oh my word!
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:11 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
There you go. All fixed.

By the way, just because couples may not have children, does not mean ‘sexless’

Have you ever visited Europe? Have you ever even left your state?
He's from eastern WA?

I might get in trouble for this, hopefully not, it is an honest question: How do we know how many trolls there are in the forum? I mean real trolls, not just echo-chamber disciples.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:38 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"I don't understand why the entire world doesn't think like I do. I don't understand why the entire world doesn't work like it does in sexless, childless, aging Northern Europe."

Well ...

Quote:
In 2011, the Durex survey asked about the frequency of sex versus people's satisfaction levels. When looking at both scores, Japan was among the lowest, but the U.S. and U.K. were lower than many other countries.
What Marital Sex Statistics Can Reveal: Who's Doing It and How Often? (verywellmind.com)

I guess that Baylor needs to learn that when you only have sex for procreational purposes, it doesn't only happen very rarely, it also isn't much fun ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:48 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
My employer offers health insurance. To have the second lowest tier they offer, I would be paying over $400 a month. This insurance would still require me to pay a significant amount out of pocket for treatment, services, or medication. I have refused an ambulance and driven to the emergency room to save hundreds of dollars, for instance, when an ankle was sprained badly enough that I thought it was broken. I don't quite think you understand that having insurance through your employer is still no guarantee that you can get a treatment, get in to see a doctor, or even be able to afford care when you need it.

Very interesting. I didn't know that it was as bad as that. It certainly explains the reaction to the Fox News question about how many people with private insurance would want to transition to universal health care:

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 11th June 2019 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:58 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Right, I want people I can't stand to breed. Skeptics and their brilliant logic.
Indeed, what is the world coming to? You'd think homo sapiens sapiens were a single, same species the way these traitors go on and on about "humanity". A common race? Dirty lie!

As Bubba Gop, swamp god and red state welfare queen, said so eloquently at the last Labama Possum BBQ, "Hey, bring back them laws prohibiting miscegenation! Yeah, that's the ticket!... Whaddaya mean, 'contra dick shun?' I said nutin about being against shunning dicks!"

Yes, indeed, let us shun dicks.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:58 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Yes, waiting lists are dreadful. Far better to not have access to that treatment at all.

"Better dead than red", just, um, litterally.


Also, in lots of "socialist" countries you still have private clinics and hospitals, so if you don't want to wait for a treatment, operation, or examination, just go have it done at some private practictioner, just like in the US. I remember when they were mass-vaccinating against the swine flu and there were hour-long lines at the free-of-charge public vaccination places. I just decided to have the shot at a private clinic.
Even in the UK with the most socialist of health systems (some) people have private health insurance, there are private hospitals. Health insurance is relatively cheap because a lot of the big cost items can be covered by the NHS. People use private health care for getting appointments when they want, for health screening that the NHS does not offer, to get sons vaccinated against HPV (currently only offered to girls on the NHS) etc. Most doctors and their families would routinely use the NHS, private hospitals are not seen as higher quality. The doctors in private hospitals are he same as those in the NHS hospitals. (Private hospitals are plusher, better food, more privacy, more convenient and flexible.)
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Old 11th June 2019, 12:12 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I always notice that they suggest Venezuela as opposed to Norway, Sweden, Germany and other Western European countries that are far more liberal than any Democrat in the US.

If you go to 2:35-2:50 in this interview with Bernie Sanders (The Daily Show, Comedy Central), he explicitly refers to Denmark and Sweden.

For some reason, capitalist countries like Botswana, Vanuatu, Romania, Uruguay, Rwanda, Jamaica, Kazakhstan, Colombia, Peru and Armenia are hardly ever mentioned in these comparisons between capitalism and socialism even though they belong to the top (!) 50 capitalist countries (as do Denmark, Sweden and the USA - Denmark and Sweden placed above the USA).
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th June 2019, 12:48 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In the U.S., almost everyone is covered by either work insurance, some form of Obamacare, or medicare.
Maybe it depends on what you mean by "covered".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3744314/
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS
Greater than one-third of low-income adults nationally were underinsured. Medicaid recipients were less likely to be underinsured than privately insured adults, indicating potential benefits of expanded Medicaid under health care reform.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this...ankruptcy.html

Quote:
A new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues
Quote:
An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found.
Quote:
“Despite gains in coverage and access to care from the ACA, our findings suggest that it did not change the proportion of bankruptcies with medical causes,” an article on the study published in the American Journal of Public Health states.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:01 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Jeez, I just had to hear my uncle have this exact same panic attack like 2 days ago. He's not even a Trump fan (as I'm pretty sure our OP is). He thinks Trump is a bombastic, offensive idiot who is wrecking the country. However, a sooooocialist (doom gongs) would be so much worse, the absolute worst thing that ever happened, he assures me. I just don't understand how evil socialism is because I was not a person yet during the bulk of the Cold War. Also, socialism and communism are the same thing. Also, Jews.

I feel your pain. If you had stayed you might have been able to hear about the Great Replacement or the Rothchilds.


Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not only that but demographics play a huge role. Socialism in Japan is different from socialism is Brazil or socialism in Zimbabwe.

When you mix different racial and ethnic groups, "socialism" breaks down. One ethnic or racial group pays more, they start feeling resented. The other group feels attacked. It is what it is. It's an immutable law of nature. No country will ever be "above" it. To hear these childless Euopreans, who live in a 95% white country that's struggling to pay for their welfare states while being covered by the US military security blanket get on their high horse is just cringe. I mean stomach turning cringe.

And there it is. We can't have equality because the races aren't equal and proper whites will end up paying for the gutter people.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:36 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Well, of course not by European standards. By American standards, Obama was an outright Communist! There's a whole thread here about 30-odd (some very odd) reasons why he hated America.
By any standards. Words mean things. It only makes it worse when people encourage the wrong thinking that someone like Obama is a progressive or a socialist or left wing. he is a centre right politician at best.

Why does it matter? because it normalises ultra right crackpottery as the other side of the coin and paints actual lefty policies as extremist crackpottery.

Call a spade a spade. There are no communist mainstream politicians in the US. There are almost no socialists. There are damn few progressives. There are a shedload of conservatives of different hues and a worrying amount of ultraconservatives.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:41 AM   #147
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually yes it is the case.

The U.S. system does have major problems... its extremely expensive, and a huge segment of the population does not get adequate coverage. So I'm not trying to absolve the U.S. or claim it system is "best in the world'.

But... most people do have coverage, either through work (155 million), through private insurance/Obamacare (102 million), or medicare/medicaid/other government programs (121 million). And the U.S. does not have a problem with waiting lists.

A salaried person probably has insurance through work (and if not, they can probably afford to get insurance through Obamacare). And if a person does have insurance they can probably get their care without having to worry about waiting lists.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying the U.S. system is perfect and doesn't need to be fixed. (The best systems in the world give universal coverage, but combine private and public systems.) I'm just saying that most people do get good medical care in the U.S., and I can't blame a person if they worry about the potential of losing that good medical care (for themselves) that they currently in order to go to a single-payer system (with its wait list problems) just because "well, everyone will be the same".
Why would they lose that? Nobody would stop them buying private healthcare if they want it.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:56 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
And there it is. We can't have equality because the races aren't equal and proper whites will end up paying for the gutter people.
Argumentum ad indignation. Argumentum ad smilieum. Instead of the usual "meh's mad" how about you demonstrate how welfare states can work in large, multi-racial countries.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:58 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
By any standards. Words mean things.
Words mean different things in different places.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:00 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Every day I get a "Quora Feed" to my gmail account, and I don't know how many times I have seen the question, "I am terrified about the possibility of socialized medicine like Canada. Someone help me?"

I am like, who are these dolts who are "terrified" of socialized medicine? Of course, they never explain what terrifies them.

Reagan told them so.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:12 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
While I don't deny that's in there (a lot), I think that's an over simplification.

I think a balance between "I want my hard work to lead to a higher standard of living" and "Screw everyone, sink or swim suckers!" can be reached somewhere.

I think the trouble is partly that people want to add "In every single conceivable aspect of my life." to the 'hard work' thing.

Aren't they happier with having a nicer place to live, bigger house, nicer car, better educated children, better health anyway due to better diet and environment, more opportunity for travel and education, more opportunity for free time and more money to do exciting stuff during that time and all the other things wealth brings? They want better chemo too?
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:22 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think the trouble is partly that people want to add "In every single conceivable aspect of my life." to the 'hard work' thing.

Aren't they happier with having a nicer place to live, bigger house, nicer car, better educated children, better health anyway due to better diet and environment, more opportunity for travel and education, more opportunity for free time and more money to do exciting stuff during that time and all the other things wealth brings? They want better chemo too?
I think they also forget that a rising tide floats all boats and helping other people helps everyone. I mean I would rather my kid's teacher was focused on how best to educate my kid and was happy healthy and thriving rather that stressed out about how to pay for her husband's operation for example.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:23 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Argumentum ad indignation. Argumentum ad smilieum. Instead of the usual "meh's mad" how about you demonstrate how welfare states can work in large, multi-racial countries.
exactly the same way they work everywhere else. race has nothing to do with it.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:28 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
exactly the same way they work everywhere else. race has nothing to do with it.
Not according to science.


Last edited by Baylor; 11th June 2019 at 03:41 AM. Reason: imgur sucks
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:43 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think they also forget that a rising tide floats all boats and helping other people helps everyone. I mean I would rather my kid's teacher was focused on how best to educate my kid and was happy healthy and thriving rather that stressed out about how to pay for her husband's operation for example.
If she's a teacher in the US she and her spouse'll likely have excellent health care and coverage. Much better than UK.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:44 AM   #156
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According to science!
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:48 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think the trouble is partly that people want to add "In every single conceivable aspect of my life." to the 'hard work' thing.

Aren't they happier with having a nicer place to live, bigger house, nicer car, better educated children, better health anyway due to better diet and environment, more opportunity for travel and education, more opportunity for free time and more money to do exciting stuff during that time and all the other things wealth brings? They want better chemo too?
Yup

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Old 11th June 2019, 03:58 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
we didn't start any new wars.
You might ask this guy about the accuracy of that claim...

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Old 11th June 2019, 04:04 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think they also forget that a rising tide floats all boats and helping other people helps everyone. I mean I would rather my kid's teacher was focused on how best to educate my kid and was happy healthy and thriving rather that stressed out about how to pay for her husband's operation for example.
I think we can probably add a lack of understanding that the role that luck plays.

"I work hared and am therefore successful and have money, therefore, if you are not successful and do not have money, you did not work hard"

It's a bobbins attitude that's gone a long way from turning Capitalism from being one of the greatest tools man has ever created into a religion.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:09 AM   #160
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“Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I'll piss on 'em
that's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death
and get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard“

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