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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 6th January 2021, 09:11 PM   #3641
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay, then, what would YOU call today's debacle? What convenient one-word term that would be easily recognizable to explain what this was would YOU employ?

If you want to be King Vocabulary you should be able to provide the goods. (Or wait until your maddened supporters storm the ISF and try to coup us, I guess!)
Already answered.

An Insurrection
A Rebellion
A Terrorist Action
A Violent Uprising
An Ideological Based Attack

take your pick. I prefer the first one of these.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:15 PM   #3642
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your concession is noted.
Not a concession at all, it was pointing out that your understanding is so poor that you can't even ask the right questions.

Whether or not the Government was able to conduct its business is entirely irrelevant to if it was a coup or not, in fact, many governments have continued to operate through coup attempts, so whether they can operate or not is irrelevant.

When the session is suspended then the government can't vote on things, that doesn't mean that the reason the session was suspended was a coup, and that is where your logic goes, that any reason for a suspension of congress = coup.

The question you need to be asking is:

"Did the right-wing insurrectionist terrorists have the power to certify the election results while they were in control of the Capitol?"
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:16 PM   #3643
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is there anything in the Constitution that says where the certification has to occur? In that particular building, or anywhere in the capital city? The Capitol is normally the most convenient place for them to do it, but is it required?
Not in the Constitution. The Electoral Count Act says they meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives (3 USC 15). But Constitutionally, and even probably legally, they could do the count anywhere if they couldn't do it in the House chamber. They could do it at the House of Representatives Lawn & Garden Center.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:24 PM   #3644
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
Have we passed peak trump yet?


Not yet. Wait for the UN and NATO to liberate US from TRUMP in a few years.


Now what was that forum command to split the thread and create a new thread
titled, Trump's Coup d'état Part 2.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:29 PM   #3645
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
Now what was that forum command to split the thread and create a new thread
titled, Trump's Coup d'état Part 2.
Trump's Two d'état comes next week.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:35 PM   #3646
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Not in the Constitution. The Electoral Count Act says they meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives (3 USC 15). But Constitutionally, and even probably legally, they could do the count anywhere if they couldn't do it in the House chamber. They could do it at the House of Representatives Lawn & Garden Center.
Yeah, it wouldn't be in the 12th Amendment, the Capitol building wasn't completed at that time.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:36 PM   #3647
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I said translation.

(a) stroke of (or "at a") state (capital E in d'État)

I'll skip the jargon.

Transliteration comes out rebellion, insurrection, revolution, overturn, etc.

Again, for the same reasons we assign things like "ethnolinguistic groups" while also excepting they aren't really hard and fast, or this is the Roman Republic, while that is the Roman Empire, but nobody in Rome woke up aware of that distinction...

A coup is a an attack on the state. Maybe they possess existing offices in a charade that takes on legitimacy, maybe a new government form, maybe an interim commission to hold new elections, but those are all held as a different component of an overall "takeover/overthow/supplant" historical event.

Something could happen tomorrow that makes a 40 year look back on this moment a whole different word.

Why hammer it out in real-time?

:9
It's weird that you argue with me and then seem to end up agreeing with me. The end result of a coup, as you just pointed out twice, is a new or changed Government where the coup members take power from the Government being taken over/overthrown/supplanted and give it to themselves or others that they deem as the new government or leadership, however temporary. If you can demonstrate any historical case of a coup occurring where the Government was overthrown and not replaced by those that overthrew it, then I'll concede the point that it's possible. Until then I don't see the point of objecting to the common definition found in pretty much every dictionary that a coup d'etat is an attack on the government in order to seize that government's power.

ETA: I'm pretty sure most Romans would have understood the difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:38 PM   #3648
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not a concession at all, it was pointing out that your understanding is so poor that you can't even ask the right questions.

Whether or not the Government was able to conduct its business is entirely irrelevant to if it was a coup or not, in fact, many governments have continued to operate through coup attempts, so whether they can operate or not is irrelevant.

When the session is suspended then the government can't vote on things, that doesn't mean that the reason the session was suspended was a coup, and that is where your logic goes, that any reason for a suspension of congress = coup.

The question you need to be asking is:

"Did the right-wing insurrectionist terrorists have the power to certify the election results while they were in control of the Capitol?"
There is nothing in the definition of “coup” that says those carrying out the coup must assume and exercise government power.

It only says that they seize, or take it away, from the government.

When members of the government had to flee the Capitol or barricade themselves in their offices, they lost their power to carry out their duties.

And it was the right wing terrorists who sieged and occupied the Capitol that took it away.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:40 PM   #3649
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Not for example, taking control of the powers of Government by the insurrectionists in order to dictate the next President?
When did they do or try and do this in any way that would have been seen as using Government powers to do such?
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:44 PM   #3650
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what do you think they were there for?
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:44 PM   #3651
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A friend of mine is from St. Louis, and while he's not a bad guy, he tells me St. Louis is the murder capital of the United States. So, all I'm saying is that there may be competition. Hawley's probably still in the running though.
East St Louis!

St. Louis is actually forth.

I feel pretty safe, though.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:44 PM   #3652
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Already answered.

An Insurrection
A Rebellion
A Terrorist Action
A Violent Uprising
An Ideological Based Attack

take your pick. I prefer the first one of these.
The very first synonym in the thesaurus entry for “insurrection” is “coup”.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/insurrection?s=t

You might be engaged in some needless hair-splitting.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:48 PM   #3653
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
There is nothing in the definition of “coup” that says those carrying out the coup must assume and exercise government power.

It only says that they seize, or take it away, from the government.

When members of the government had to flee the Capitol or barricade themselves in their offices, they lost their power to carry out their duties.

And it was the right wing terrorists who sieged and occupied the Capitol that took it away.
This is incorrect. Seize means not just to deny something, but to take it away from someone and into your own possession so you have it and they don't.

Unless the terrorists took the ability into their own possession and thus could have used it, then they did not remove it from Congress, instead, they prevented them from using the power, they didn't seize it.

Let me put this in a way you can understand.

If I seize your car, I get a truck and tow it away, taking it into my possession.

If instead I just slash your tires and dumping sugar in your gas tank, while I have denied you the ability to use your car, I haven't seized it. You still retain possession of it.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:48 PM   #3654
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lol of course objecting to the use of casual use of words by using strict legal definitions of them in a casual conversation is needless
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:51 PM   #3655
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Are we allowed to use the word coup yet?
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:53 PM   #3656
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Are we allowed to use the word coup yet?
lol still trying to figure that out buddy
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:53 PM   #3657
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
lol of course objecting to the use of casual use of words by using strict legal definitions of them in a casual conversation is needless
Words have meanings, if you don't use them in the correct context then you cause confusion.

Would it be a good idea to talk about the tornado that devastated miles of Florida coastline? I mean after all Hurricane, Cyclone, Typhoon, Tornado... they are all cyclonic wind storms, what does it matter is we use them all interchangeably?
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:55 PM   #3658
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The very first synonym in the thesaurus entry for “insurrection” is “coup”.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/insurrection?s=t

You might be engaged in some needless hair-splitting.
You do understand that synonym doesn't mean "words with exactly the same meaning" right?
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:57 PM   #3659
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You understand that synonyms can be used interchangeably, right? That's what makes them synonyms.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:57 PM   #3660
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is incorrect. Seize means not just to deny something, but to take it away from someone and into your own possession so you have it and they don't.

Unless the terrorists took the ability into their own possession and thus could have used it, then they did not remove it from Congress, instead, they prevented them from using the power, they didn't seize it.

Let me put this in a way you can understand.

If I seize your car, I get a truck and tow it away, taking it into my possession.

If instead I just slash your tires and dumping sugar in your gas tank, while I have denied you the ability to use your car, I haven't seized it. You still retain possession of it.
If you seize my car, but don’t drive it or otherwise use it and merely prevent me from using it, you’ve still seized my car.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:58 PM   #3661
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Just saw a repost of something Lin Wood is saying on Parler. That Trump is hiding out with the top military brass in TX waiting for Pence and Congress to finish their crimes. Then they will swoop in.

For my money, I bet that Trump is still in the White House on hold with Twitter tech support.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:01 PM   #3662
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is incorrect. Seize means not just to deny something, but to take it away from someone and into your own possession so you have it and they don't.
If instead I just slash your tires and dumping sugar in your gas tank, while I have denied you the ability to use your car, I haven't seized it. You still retain possession of it.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If you seize my car, but don’t drive it or otherwise use it and merely prevent me from using it, you’ve still seized my car.
Exactly, sticking a boot over your car wheel is a common way for a car to be seized without actually hauling it away.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:03 PM   #3663
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Just saw a repost of something Lin Wood is saying on Parler. That Trump is hiding out with the top military brass in TX waiting for Pence and Congress to finish their crimes. Then they will swoop in.

For my money, I bet that Trump is still in the White House on hold with Twitter tech support.
Lin should watch out for the people with nets swooping in.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:04 PM   #3664
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
You understand that synonyms can be used interchangeably, right? That's what makes them synonyms.
This simply isn't true. Synonyms may be interchangeable, but can also change the context of the sentence. synonyms are words of similar meaning, not exact. For example, a synonym of "Fat" can be both "Morbidly Obese" and "Chubby" but these are not the same thing, and using them interchangeably would give an incorrect context.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:04 PM   #3665
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do understand that synonym doesn't mean "words with exactly the same meaning" right?
Yes. Do you understand that synonyms are close enough in meaning that quibbling over their specific definitions is engaging in needless hair-splitting?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:07 PM   #3666
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Words have meanings, if you don't use them in the correct context then you cause confusion.

Would it be a good idea to talk about the tornado that devastated miles of Florida coastline? I mean after all Hurricane, Cyclone, Typhoon, Tornado... they are all cyclonic wind storms, what does it matter is we use them all interchangeably?
yeah words do have meanings, and meaning depends on context.

instead of this example, i'll use your other example. the broad definition of treason betrayal of one's country, but you object to the use of that because it doesn't fit with the US constitution's legal definition. people are allowed to use the more broad definition if they want, you don't get to pick which definition people are allowed to use and in what context.

it's more like you're objecting to the word "storm" because you'd rather they use the word "hurricane"
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:12 PM   #3667
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This simply isn't true. Synonyms may be interchangeable, but can also change the context of the sentence. synonyms are words of similar meaning, not exact. For example, a synonym of "Fat" can be both "Morbidly Obese" and "Chubby" but these are not the same thing, and using them interchangeably would give an incorrect context.
No one is arguing that synonyms have the exact same meaning.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:12 PM   #3668
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Don Lemon seems to be pushing a "Capitol Police are part of the plot" conspriacy theory.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:13 PM   #3669
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If you seize my car, but don’t drive it or otherwise use it and merely prevent me from using it, you’ve still seized my car.
You seem to be deliberately missing the point yet again.

It's not "merely preventing your using it." I am able to prevent your using it because you no longer possess it, I do. I can go for a joy ride in it because it's in my possession. Just because I don't, doesn't mean I can't.

This is the issue. Seizure involves more than the mere denial of use, it involves taking away the possession of that use from someone else and in doing so having the possession yourself (it giving that possession to someone else.)

It doesn't matter if Congress was unable to do something unless they actually lost the power to do it because the terrorists took that power themselves then it isn't a seizure.

Congress still had the ability to vote on the certificates, they never lost it, the Terrorists never gained it. Yes, they were denied the ability to exercise the power because the law says they have to be in a certain place to do so, but they never lost the power itself, any more than going to lunch means that they lose the power.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:15 PM   #3670
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No one is arguing that synonyms have the exact same meaning.
so you agree that insurrection and coup don't mean the same thing then?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:22 PM   #3671
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
13 people arrested so far, according to Norwegian news.
13 is a pathetically small amount given the number of people involved and the seriousness of the crime.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:22 PM   #3672
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
yeah words do have meanings, and meaning depends on context.

instead of this example, i'll use your other example. the broad definition of treason betrayal of one's country, but you object to the use of that because it doesn't fit with the US constitution's legal definition. people are allowed to use the more broad definition if they want, you don't get to pick which definition people are allowed to use and in what context.
When people declare that someone has committed Treason, then that is a direct criminal accusation. Treason is defined by a criminal code. If you want to accuse someone of violating that code, then get the codes right.

Quote:
it's more like you're objecting to the word "storm" because you'd rather they use the word "hurricane"
wrong way around. It's closer to objecting to people calling a Thunderstorm "a Hurricane."
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:24 PM   #3673
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
13 is a pathetically small amount given the number of people involved and the seriousness of the crime.
There will be more, lots of footage and photos of the perps, the police will identify them and then go knock on the door over the next few weeks.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:26 PM   #3674
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You seem to be deliberately missing the point yet again.

It's not "merely preventing your using it." I am able to prevent your using it because you no longer possess it, I do. I can go for a joy ride in it because it's in my possession. Just because I don't, doesn't mean I can't.

This is the issue. Seizure involves more than the mere denial of use, it involves taking away the possession of that use from someone else and in doing so having the possession yourself (it giving that possession to someone else.)

It doesn't matter if Congress was unable to do something unless they actually lost the power to do it because the terrorists took that power themselves then it isn't a seizure.

Congress still had the ability to vote on the certificates, they never lost it, the Terrorists never gained it. Yes, they were denied the ability to exercise the power because the law says they have to be in a certain place to do so, but they never lost the power itself, any more than going to lunch means that they lose the power.
If they didn’t lose the power to certify the vote then why didn’t they exercise it?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:26 PM   #3675
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don Lemon seems to be pushing a "Capitol Police are part of the plot" conspriacy theory.
i'd consider it an almost inexplicable failure that they were allowed to get that close with so little resistance, have to be honest. like it's possible they were so badly prepared for this despite all the obvious warning signs but that takes an unbelievable amount of incompetence.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:26 PM   #3676
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
There will be more, lots of footage and photos of the perps, the police will identify them and then go knock on the door over the next few weeks.
Yeah, those ******* know who they are and are probably shaking in their boots right now.

Or not.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:29 PM   #3677
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
When people declare that someone has committed Treason, then that is a direct criminal accusation. Treason is defined by a criminal code. If you want to accuse someone of violating that code, then get the codes right.
i thought i just explained that there's also a more casual definition of the term that normal people can use in casual conversation? it was the only reason i wrote what i wrote. like, what is going on here?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:33 PM   #3678
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Yeah, those ******* know who they are and are probably shaking in their boots right now.

Or not.
I think a lot of ones who drew attention to themselves will be arrested.
The idiot who selfied himslef sitting in Pelosi's office is going up for sure.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:33 PM   #3679
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
so you agree that insurrection and coup don't mean the same thing then?
No, they don’t mean the exact same thing. But they are very close in meaning. Thus, synonyms.

The question is why you wish to split this particular hair but readily accept the term “insurrection” without delving into similar semantic quibbles.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:33 PM   #3680
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If they didn’t lose the power to certify the vote then why didn’t they exercise it?
already answered.

Possessing power doesn't mean you can always exercise it, and not being able to exercise a power doesn't mean you have had it taken away from you
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