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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 6th January 2021, 10:34 PM   #3681
dudalb
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What next? Explain how the Bastille was not an insurrection against the French Government?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:36 PM   #3682
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, they don’t mean the exact same thing. But they are very close in meaning. Thus, synonyms.

The question is why you wish to split this particular hair but readily accept the term “insurrection” without delving into similar semantic quibbles.
They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:38 PM   #3683
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It doesn't matter if Congress was unable to do something unless they actually lost the power to do it because the terrorists took that power themselves then it isn't a seizure.

Congress still had the ability to vote on the certificates, they never lost it, the Terrorists never gained it. Yes, they were denied the ability to exercise the power because the law says they have to be in a certain place to do so, but they never lost the power itself, any more than going to lunch means that they lose the power.
Congress was occupied, legal proceedings halted. No matter how long it lasted, that was an attempted coup, the actions those of terrorists, and the man responsible a White supremacist who repeatedly betrays his oaths of office. There's no sugar coating that, and the Paradise of Infinite Lollipops for White Boys is over. Laughably, pathetically over.

Uncle Sam has had yet another very public trouser drop thanks to White boys and their sadly deluded allies. Henceforth, zero grounds to claim adherence to Western values, or any sort of "leadership", let alone a moral voice or intellectual credibility. Trump and his base have ****-canned the USA for generations to come and greatly advanced the forces of totalitarianism around the planet.

In light of events, waving a Trump flag this point forward is an act of treason, an intentional declarative blessing of a violent coup against democracy. From now on, no quarter, no respite, no benefit of the doubt, only a hard press up against the wall.

Time to finally rewrite the DoI so that it does not take those lazy short-cuts in defining the first principles of democracy which, btw, do not start with "small government". Maybe then prairie dogs and swamp rats will get some learnin'.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:39 PM   #3684
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.

The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:40 PM   #3685
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don Lemon seems to be pushing a "Capitol Police are part of the plot" conspriacy theory.
There is video of the Capitol police palling around with the right wing terrorists and taking selfies with them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rev...ump-terrorists
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:43 PM   #3686
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
already answered.

Possessing power doesn't mean you can always exercise it, and not being able to exercise a power doesn't mean you have had it taken away from you
That’s not an answer, it’s a dodge.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:44 PM   #3687
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What next? Explain how the Bastille was not an insurrection against the French Government?
Who is claiming that it wasn't? Well other than the "government" at the time was a Monarch, so it was really an act of insurrection against the French Monarchy. It was also an act of Rebellion and Revolution. It wasn't a Coup though.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:47 PM   #3688
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That’s not an answer, it’s a dodge.
Do you believe that you can only have power if you can exercise it? If so, then does the Government lose its power when the Session is suspended?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:49 PM   #3689
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They are close in meaning yes, in that they are both actions against a Government. But they are different enough actions to differentiate between them, so when there is a need, they should be.
“Insurrection” is defined as “a violent uprising against an authority or government”.

I mean, can we really call this a violent uprising against the government? These dudes just kind of milled around for a while and then allowed themselves to be politely escorted out of the Capitol.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:49 PM   #3690
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:51 PM   #3691
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
Hitler wasn't. He went to prison for I believe 18 months. Wrote Mein Kampf and then ran again.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:52 PM   #3692
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
There is video of the Capitol police palling around with the right wing terrorists and taking selfies with them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rev...ump-terrorists
I prefer to wait for the investigations.
On the other hand, if the police really are on Trump's side, then you need to take my suggestion about arming yourself or brand yourself as a bag of hot air.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:53 PM   #3693
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Do you believe that you can only have power if you can exercise it? If so, then does the Government lose its power when the Session is suspended?
No, but I believe that you can’t exercise power unless you possess it.

You seem to object to my question, so I’ll rephrase it: Could Congress exercise their power to certify the election while right wing terrorists occupied the Capitol?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:54 PM   #3694
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
“Insurrection” is defined as “a violent uprising against an authority or government”.

I mean, can we really call this a violent uprising against the government? These dudes just kind of milled around for a while and then allowed themselves to be politely escorted out of the Capitol.
Considering that they smashed their way in and there was a death, I'd say that there was some violence in there.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:57 PM   #3695
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that they smashed their way in and there was a death, I'd say that there was some violence in there.
But was it really an uprising? They basically just forced their way into a building and that was it. Remember, we need to be dead-on perfect in our definition of terms.

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Old 6th January 2021, 11:02 PM   #3696
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, but I believe that you can’t exercise power unless you possess it.

You seem to object to my question, so I’ll rephrase it: Could Congress exercise their power to certify the election while right wing terrorists occupied the Capitol?
Again already answered.

And you seem to agree that when a Session is suspended that the Congress doesn't lose its powers. Why should the reason for the suspension matter in this?

However, you have yet to answer as to if the right-wing terrorists could exercise any governmental powers while occupying the Capitol?
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:03 PM   #3697
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
But was it really an uprising? They basically just forced their way into a building and that was it. Remember, we need to be dead-on perfect in our definition of terms.
Was it an act of resistance or rebellion against the Government? Then yes it was an uprising.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:04 PM   #3698
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The instigator of a failed insurrection is usually hanged in public, while the instigator of a failed coup is usually shot in prison and their body dumped on the side of a road from a moving car.

So, it's very important to get this right.
Awesome post!

Really helps distill this "First Up Against The Wall Come The Revolution" discussion in a nutshell.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:13 PM   #3699
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I asked, I think in this thread, why it matters if you all it a coup, or an insurrection, or whatever. One poster often alludes to effective "messaging" - which includes deciding on a phrase and sticking with it, so that any attempt to characterize this event as a serious threat is off-message. Minimizing it is a strategy - in essence, "Yes, they took over our space temporarily but we came back and finished the day's business." Setting aside all of the emotions, this is what happened - there was a break of a few hours, and then the legislative branch of government was back in business.

I understand wanting to avoid the word "coup," but I don't have a lot invested either way. There are a couple of posters here adamant about not using that word and for lack of a better answer I'm deciding it's a "messaging" issue. Which may be valid; it is not clear to me yet.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:15 PM   #3700
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Re: Coup semantics.

This was a mob. And, yes, it was an uprising. Trump's "plan" was to whip MAGtards into a frenzy, and pressure Republican legislators to use some kind of parliamentary super-tactic in order to circumvent the election. It didn't work, so the restless mob stormed the capitol. They're not taking over the levers of power. The guy in the horned helmet did not assume any kind of state authority even for a second. This was a Trump-inspired action, but not exactly Trump-led. He told the mob to disperse. He didn't say, "Hold the People's Building until I arrive. I'm going to make an announcement to the world."

Calling this a "coup" is sort of like how after the Las Vegas shooting people said, "I don't care what anyone says, this is terrorism." And their evidence is 1) It was really, really bad and 2) people felt terrorized. Well, no. Terrorism has a social/political component.

All of this is further complicated by the fact that Trump is pro-coup. The business of the ten living Secretaries of Defense recognizing Biden as President-Elect is more ominous. What's the story behind that letter? Hawley/Cruz trying to circumvent the certification of the vote is also more ominous (although, truth be told, Hawley/Cruz know/knew their actions would not change the outcome; they're rank political opportunists angling to take the presidency for themselves).
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:17 PM   #3701
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whether or not you want to call any single incident an uprising or a coup or whatever, trump's treasonous coup attempt isn't limited to this one incident. he's been making increasingly brazen and dangerous attempts for two months. and the more attempts he takes, the more coup-like it appears
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:17 PM   #3702
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, that’s just your dodge again.

Quote:
And you seem to agree that when a Session is suspended that the Congress doesn't lose its powers.
That’s because a voluntary suspension does not constitute a loss of power. If Congress suspends a session, they have the freedom to reconvene whenever they want. They had no such freedom while right wing terrorists occupied the Capitol.

Quote:
Why should the reason for the suspension matter in this?
Their power wasn’t suspended. It was taken away from them.

Quote:
However, you have yet to answer as to if the right-wing terrorists could exercise any governmental powers while occupying the Capitol?
No they couldn’t. Nor is that relevant, as I’ve repeatedly explained.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:22 PM   #3703
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Was it an act of resistance or rebellion against the Government? Then yes it was an uprising.
A bunch of people forced their way into a building and then wandered around taking selfies. Was that really a rebellion?

Again, please remember that we need to be 100% accurate in our definitions. We cannot allow ourselves to be lazy and casual in our use of language.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:27 PM   #3704
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A bunch of people forced their way into a building and then wandered around taking selfies. Was that really a rebellion?

Again, please remember that we need to be 100% accurate in our definitions. We cannot allow ourselves to be lazy and casual in our use of language.
4 people were killed today.

You tell me.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:30 PM   #3705
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
…Again, please remember that we need to be 100% accurate in our definitions. We cannot allow ourselves to be lazy and casual in our use of language.
4 people were killed today.

You tell me.
On this johnny karate is correct.
1 person was killed.
Another 3 died.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:30 PM   #3706
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
4 people were killed.

You tell me.
We’re talking strict definitional terms here. I’m not sure that the number of fatalities is a factor in determining whether or not this qualifies as a rebellion, in again, strict definitional terms.
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:00 AM   #3707
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The silver lining to the storming of the Capitol building is that it has led us to all agree on the specific definition of the word "coup".

And whether a word quoted at the end of sentence should have the period within the quotation marks or that the period should be outside the quotation marks when the word or phrase is not a spoken or written quotation of another party.

And whether a sentence can begin with the word, "And."
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:03 AM   #3708
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
And whether a sentence can begin with the word, "And."
So, can it?
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:09 AM   #3709
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There's a lot of misinformation out there, but we can never forget what happened today: The Capitol was stormed by ANTIFA.
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:11 AM   #3710
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Are you guys being this pedantic on the Stop the Steal guys too?

I mean, their accusation isn't really that Biden and the Democrats broke laws regarding theft.
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:19 AM   #3711
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
There's a lot of misinformation out there, but we can never forget what happened today: The Capitol was stormed by ANTIFA.
Trump should ban all False Flags!

except the Confederate one, of course.
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:51 AM   #3712
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Judge Napolitano Tweets

Quote:
(1 of 2)
President Trump is even more deranged than I ever imagined during my 35 years of knowing him. Since November 3rd, he has been unhinged from reality. Today he invited and incited an attack on the government he has sworn to protect...
Quote:
(2 of 2 )He should be arrested tonight. Vice President Pence should invoke the 25th Amendment before the President pardons these thugs or does more damage to freedom. The VP will easily get the votes of a majority of the cabinet.
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Old 7th January 2021, 01:05 AM   #3713
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Hmmmm ... let's see. Upper right hand corner -> thread tools -> ignore this thread.

There.
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Old 7th January 2021, 01:07 AM   #3714
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump should ban all False Flags!

except the Confederate one, of course.
Or those 3 percenter ones. Or those Blue Lives Matter ones. Or those ones with death's heads on them. Or Trump Flags, natch! Or MAGA flags. Or Nazi Swastika Flags.

Let's hope nobody saw which one was sneaked in there.
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Old 7th January 2021, 02:24 AM   #3715
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Betting one of the first guys to be arrested for his role in the insurrection is that idiot who took the selfie of himself in Pelosi's office. He just saved teh FBI a lot of work.
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Old 7th January 2021, 02:26 AM   #3716
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Betting one of the first guys to be arrested for his role in the insurrection is that idiot who took the selfie of himself in Pelosi's office. He just saved teh FBI a lot of work.
I think Viking idiot is a frontrunner.
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Old 7th January 2021, 02:38 AM   #3717
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
So, can it?
It depends on the weather.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:01 AM   #3718
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
If you had any doubt that this Trump was any less "complicit" than the others.

There was the spectacle of Erik Trump...
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:04 AM   #3719
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Pretend attempted coup. Make believe.
I don't think so. It was well orchestrated. The woman who was shot, Ashli Babbit, was a US Air Force veteran - probably one of the leaders - who burst in through the window like something out of James Bond.

That was no 'tourist'.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:06 AM   #3720
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think so. It was well orchestrated. The woman who was shot, Ashli Babbit, was a US Air Force veteran - probably one of the leaders - who burst in through the window like something out of James Bond.

That was no 'tourist'.
She was a Q-nut too.
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