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Old 21st April 2017, 08:14 AM   #1601
Jabba
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
There are no such thing as potential selves. That is a construct of yours and yours alone. And yet, despite the number of times this has been pointed out to you, you continue to ignore it.
Jond,
- See below.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Trying to re-group and present my premises for your objections:

1. There is such a ‘thing’ (process?) as consciousness.
2. Consciousness naturally brings with it a “self” (or, “sense of self”).
3. “Self” being the experience that reincarnationists believe returns to life.

4. There is such a thing as a potential selves – before we are conceived, we are potential selves.
5. There must be an infinity of potential selves.
6. Scientifically speaking, each self can have only one finite life -- at most.

7. Scientifically speaking, the likelihood of my current existence must be about 7 billion over infinity (there being about 7 billion humans currently existing on the earth).
8. In other words, the likelihood of my current existence – given the scientific hypothesis -- is virtually zero…
9. My current existence is therefore evidence that the scientific hypothesis is wrong.

10. But that’s actually quite simplistic…
11. What if other things -- or empty space -- have/has consciousness? What if there are more universes or dimensions? What if time isn’t what we think it is? What if science is only at the beginning?
12. My current existence seems pretty fertile in light of what we know and don’t know.
13. I’ll be back. I’ve got a lot of spaces to fill and miles to go.

- I'm trying to develop a map.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:15 AM   #1602
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jond,
- See below.
You keep saying that, but no, there is no such thing as a "potential self". Stop trying to peddle ideas that have been shown to be wrong.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:17 AM   #1603
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You don't actually address points, jabba. You do everything in your power to grind the debate to a halt so that you never have to admit to being wrong.

We actually see through your tactics, you know.
Argumemnon,
- Give me a point now, and I'll try to address it.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:19 AM   #1604
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Give me a point now, and I'll try to address it.
Here's a thought. Go back through the last three pages or so and pick up one of the points that someone has already addressed.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:19 AM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You keep saying that, but no, there is no such thing as a "potential self". Stop trying to peddle ideas that have been shown to be wrong.
- What potential thing is there?
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:20 AM   #1606
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Theoretically, you'll be able to post that on the map for 'all' the neutrals to see.
Why can't he post it here -- as he already has -- for all the "neutrals" to see, and have you address it without all the hemming and hawing? Why the need to move the discussion to a forum you control?
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:20 AM   #1607
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Here's a thought. Go back through the last three pages or so and pick up one of the points that someone has already addressed.
Jay,
- Give me one.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:22 AM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Give me one.
No. I told you enough times that you should remember, that I don't repeat arguments I've already put to you. Go back over the last three pages or so and pick up any of the points you haven't yet addressed. I will not participate in your stonewalling.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:23 AM   #1609
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Argumemnon,
- Give me a point now, and I'll try to address it.
What are you talking about? I'm refering to your behaviour in the Shroud thread where you claimed to only read and address the first point of each post, which was clearly a ploy to ignore as much stuff as possible.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- What potential thing is there?
There are actual things, jabba. Stop trying to derail the discussion.

Quote:
- Give me one.
No. Go back and read the posts people write for you.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:23 AM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
What potential thing is there?
None. Your notion of a "potential" thing that exists in infinite numbers only in the abstract has no basis in reality and provides no useful basis for computation.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:23 AM   #1611
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. I told you enough times that you should remember, that I don't repeat arguments I've already put to you. Go back over the last three pages or so and pick up any of the points you haven't yet addressed. I will not participate in your stonewalling.
- So, I'll try harder to ignore you.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:24 AM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, I'll try harder to ignore you.
I thought you said you were friendly.

Gee, you seem to have a lot of time to post right now. How about you use it to learn something instead of acting like a jerk?
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:24 AM   #1613
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What are you talking about? I'm refering to your behaviour in the Shroud thread where you claimed to only read and address the first point of each post, which was clearly a ploy to ignore as much stuff as possible.



There are actual things, jabba. Stop trying to derail the discussion.



No. Go back and read the posts people write for you.
- No.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:25 AM   #1614
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No.
Well at least now we have a pretty clear admission from you that you have no intention of participating in this thread honestly. Took you long enough.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:27 AM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I thought you said you were friendly.

Gee, you seem to have a lot of time to post right now. How about you use it to learn something instead of acting like a jerk?
- I'm friendly to anyone who is somewhat friendly to me. I just try to ignore people who aren't.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:27 AM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
If you were to read the thread, you'd see plenty of examples of people telling you how and when you're putting words in their mouths. Your unwillingness to read the thread does not compel people to constantly remind you of them. You and only you are responsible for how much of this thread you read and absorb. It's high time you stopped blaming everyone else for your shortcomings.

As to the matter of insults, I seem to recall Loss Leader recently having engaged you on a point. He has asked you a number of times to continue that engagement, and you have patently refused. If, as you say, you so do because the posts written to you are insulting, you should be able to go back and produce the post of his that you claim is insulting and which, according to you, would absolve you of the responsibility to answer it.

Will you do that? Will you take it upon yourself to accuse one of the moderations of insulting you? Or can we leave this silly straw man of an excuse behind?
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:28 AM   #1617
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm friendly to anyone who is somewhat friendly to me. I just try to ignore people who aren't.
Asked and answered. You give various incompatible reasons why you ignore posts. This is only the latest, and it is not supported by evidence.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:29 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm friendly to anyone who is somewhat friendly to me. I just try to ignore people who aren't.
JayUtah has been EXCEPTIONALLY patient with you, addressing your points and claims with an ENORMOUS amount of poise and detail over the years, only to be RUDELY ignored by you at every turn. Your threat of ignoring him now rings hollow, since you've done nothing but that for years.

Jay's been your best option for learning something in all of your threads, and you've done nothing but being insulting by dismissing his best efforts to educate you as to the nature of your errors. You don't get to call him unfriendly.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:30 AM   #1619
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, I'll try harder to ignore you.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No.
I agree with Argumemnon. This is as clear an admission as we're likely to get that you have no intent of participating honestly in this thread.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:30 AM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well at least now we have a pretty clear admission from you that you have no intention of participating in this thread honestly. Took you long enough.
- Lately, I've been responding to all your posts. Give me a post about the subject of this thread, and I'll try to answer it too.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:31 AM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- What I want to do is probably impossible (for me), but I bet that if someone who really understood the computer and the Internet would attack the problem, they could solve it. I would like to make it in diagram form


Do You Believe The Soul Is Separate From The Body?
.........l..................................................l
........No..............................................Yes
.........l..................................................l
.........l..................Do you have any repeatable, falsifiable evidence?
.........l................................l................................l
.........l...............................No.............................Yes.
.........l................................l ...............................l
Accept the null position that the soul..................Really?
is not separate from the body.............................l.......l
...........^.................................................. .......No.....Yes
............l.................................................. .........l.........l
............L---------------------------------------------l........l
.................................................. ..............................l
.................................................. ......................Publish it, genius.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:31 AM   #1622
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sure, here's one:



Dave responded:



You also tend to deliberately misrepresent other people's conclusions, like here:
There you are Jabba. If you go to the post I've quoted above you can see a specific example of you putting words in someone's mouth.

This was on the previous page.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:31 AM   #1623
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Lately, I've been responding to all your posts. Give me a post about the subject of this thread, and I'll try to answer it too.
Read the thread. You don't get to proudly say that you deliberately ignore what people say and then demand they say it again. This is just your typical stonewalling tactic.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:32 AM   #1624
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Lately, I've been responding to all your posts. Give me a post about the subject of this thread, and I'll try to answer it too.
Posting a response is not answering points.

But here's one for you: you have no justification for using "infinity" as a denominator in your equation, since you've not established that there are an infinity of "odds" against a particular person existing. In fact, for all you know all things are deterministic, and thus all odds are 1:1. You have utterly failed to address this repeatedly.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:32 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
JayUtah has been EXCEPTIONALLY patient with you, addressing your points and claims with an ENORMOUS amount of poise and detail over the years, only to be RUDELY ignored by you at every turn. Your threat of ignoring him now rings hollow, since you've done nothing but that for years.

Jay's been your best option for learning something in all of your threads, and you've done nothing but being insulting by dismissing his best efforts to educate you as to the nature of your errors. You don't get to call him unfriendly.
- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me, and I keep giving him another chance...
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:34 AM   #1626
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me...
Example, please.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:34 AM   #1627
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me, and I keep giving him another chance...
That is a bald faced lie, jabba. Jay has been engaging you for YEARS, posting very detailed rebuttals of your claims. You've been ignoring him and insulting him throughout, and now you complain that he's getting frustrated with you? That is entirely your own fault.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:39 AM   #1628
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Posting a response is not answering points.

But here's one for you: you have no justification for using "infinity" as a denominator in your equation, since you've not established that there are an infinity of "odds" against a particular person existing. In fact, for all you know all things are deterministic, and thus all odds are 1:1. You have utterly failed to address this repeatedly.
Argumemnon,
- I have tried to address this numerous times. For some reason, it doesn't easily communicate.
- Maybe, it's just me -- but maybe, it's like calculus or factor analysis, and does not easily communicate.
- Whatever, I'll try again -- but, it won't be fast.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:41 AM   #1629
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I have tried to address this numerous times. For some reason, it doesn't easily communicate.
It doesn't "communicate" because it's wrong. Your critics are telling you the reasons why it's wrong. Instead of addressing and fixing those reasons, you simply accuse your critics of not understanding you, or the problem of being somehow intractably complex, and then just repeating your claim over and over again. That is not how debate works.

Quote:
Maybe, it's just me -- but maybe, it's like calculus or factor analysis, and does not easily communicate.
No, it's simple. It's just wrong. If you look back a few weeks, you'll see how I was able to communicate the essentials of calculus in just a few paragraphs. It's not a matter of your critics being dense. It's a matter of the concepts you're trying to foist being wrong.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:45 AM   #1630
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Argumemnon,
- I have tried to address this numerous times. For some reason, it doesn't easily communicate.
- Maybe, it's just me -- but maybe, it's like calculus or factor analysis, and does not easily communicate.
- Whatever, I'll try again -- but, it won't be fast.
See what I mean? Responding properly to my request would take barely more time than what you took to post this. You used it instead to -- surprise -- not answer the request.

It's a simple question, jabba: WHY do you use "infinity" as a denominator? You can respond in just a few sentences, but chose not to. That's because you know you have no answer.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:56 AM   #1631
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me, and I keep giving him another chance...

Please quote one example of this.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:59 AM   #1632
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jond,
- See below.
Jabba, the problem you continue to fail to grasp is that the self isn't a thing. It is a process in a functioning brain. Now, conceptually there could be considered "potential brains" but that's not what you're trying to achieve. Further, you have no interest in discussing potential brains. You need there to be "potential selves" that are out there waiting to be born, but that's not what the scientific model indicates.

The self you are is the only self you can be, because your "self" is the result of your ongoing brain function.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:13 AM   #1633
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Theoretically, you'll be able to post that on the map for 'all' the neutrals to see.

In practice, the only person who will be able to post anything on the "map" will be you.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:30 AM   #1634
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- If I can actually get the blog going, you will be able to post your own comments. And theoretically, I won't even moderate your comments.
Sooo..... You want to have a site on the internet where the words that people write here can be posted for others to read. Then those writers may also be able to add additional posts. And you won't moderate these posts?

I'm thinking there is an easier way to accomplish this.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:34 AM   #1635
jond
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Do You Believe The Soul Is Separate From The Body?
.........l..................................................l
........No..............................................Yes
.........l..................................................l
.........l..................Do you have any repeatable, falsifiable evidence?
.........l................................l................................l
.........l...............................No.............................Yes.
.........l................................l ...............................l
Accept the null position that the soul..................Really?
is not separate from the body.............................l.......l
...........^.................................................. .......No.....Yes
............l.................................................. .........l.........l
............L---------------------------------------------l........l
.................................................. ..............................l
.................................................. ......................Publish it, genius.
This.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:52 AM   #1636
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
I'm thinking there is an easier way to accomplish this.
Jabba maintains that a neutral reader, upon reading this debate, will conclude that the materialists are biased, ostensibly to the extent that they are rejecting an otherwise well-reasoned argument. If that belief is sincere, then it requires only drawing the reader's attention to this forum and thread. But Jabba insinuates that it would only be through his "map" that a neutral reader would come to the predicted conclusion. It's hard to interpret that as anything other than an admission that the desired conclusion could only be reached via Jabba's proposed edits and redactions. The "map" is either superfluous or dishonest. There is very little other ground.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:58 AM   #1637
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's hard to interpret that as anything other than an admission that the desired conclusion could only be reached via Jabba's proposed edits and redactions. The "map" is either superfluous or dishonest. There is very little other ground.
Indeed. If one could only agree with jabba were the conversation edited by jabba, it stands to reason that one only agrees with jabba if the conversation is presented dishonestly.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:29 AM   #1638
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Indeed. If one could only agree with jabba were the conversation edited by jabba, it stands to reason that one only agrees with jabba if the conversation is presented dishonestly.
Summaries and redactions are prepared all the time in scholarship, and if accomplished properly they are useful when the essence of a controversy must be efficiently conveyed. But invariably such redactions aver their fidelity by referring easily back to the original source material. Even if the reader never follows the reference, the act of supplying it is an offer to be rebutted on the grounds of distortion.

Jabba's track record as an editor doesn't pass muster. He never referred back to the source material, and he conceded to accusations of distortion and omission (which he promised to correct, but never did). There is no legitimate goal in scholarship which is served by these actions. These actions are consistent only with a deliberate attempt to deceive. There is no reason to suppose, given the stated intent of his new "map", that he will act any differently this time around.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:35 AM   #1639
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Summaries and redactions are prepared all the time in scholarship, and if accomplished properly they are useful when the essence of a controversy must be efficiently conveyed. But invariably such redactions aver their fidelity by referring easily back to the original source material. Even if the reader never follows the reference, the act of supplying it is an offer to be rebutted on the grounds of distortion.
Yeah. Reading the original in these cases doesn't suddenly reveal bias. Jabba's idea is to introduce bias via the editing process.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:39 AM   #1640
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm friendly to anyone who is somewhat friendly to me. I just try to ignore people who aren't.
I don't know which is the sadder possibility; that you are using this as an excuse or that you honestly believe it.

Your childish definition of "nice" as "doesn't disagree with my inane statements" is your own problem of your own making Jabba.

You have been massively rude in this discussion and have been treated with kid's gloves in return. There is no mythical population of "neutrals" you are impressing.
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