|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#121 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
True, but the problem with torture is two-fold:
1) It has been shown to be much less effective at obtaining information that is later validated/confirmed. 2) It yields SIGNIFICANTLY more really false information as the target begins rambling to get it to stop. I would say this describes a practically bad process in addition to a morally objectionable one. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#122 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#123 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
You left out the other side: that it generates way more bad information that other means. If the price you pay for a small amount of accurate, usable information is a mountain of ********. It's hard to see how that qualifies as "working" from the perspective of an investigator. Torture, which has been studied, leads people down the wrong road more often than not, wasting time and resources chasing phantoms.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#124 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Based on the studies of the efficacy of torture and coercive interrogation techniques.
There is a huge amount of work on this subject, including a lot of really good stuff that's been linked here.
Quote:
I enjoy the discussion. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#125 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,872
|
No, that hasn't been shown. There are no good studies on the efficacy of torture compared to other techniques. Nor can there be, under western ethics rules on research. That itself is a problem for the use of torture as a policy, but it isn't the one you claim. What you believe you know about torture, you don't.
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#127 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,689
|
Studied scientifically? How would that be done when torture is illegal and morally condemnable in the first place?
It may not be possible to evaluate the effectiveness of torture when those who might use it to its best advantage are organized criminals such as the Mafia, street gangs, cartels, etc. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#128 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,673
|
Seconded!
While the widespread use of torture can sometimes result in obtaining data that could not be readily obtained otherwise. However, the widespread use of torture also produces vast volumes of false information as well. And by the time one separates the truth from the fiction, then then the bit of truth that was obtained via torture is simply not worth of all the effort that it took to produce that one bit of truth. That is what I have been saying for some time now, collecting data through the use of torture is actually a very poor way to collect data. |
__________________
08 JAN 2018 > Trump says that he is "Like, Really Smart" and that he is "a Very Stable Genius". 11 JAN 2018 > During an Oval Office meeting, Trump asks "“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?”" A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#129 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
I ask you to cast your memory all the way back to the 2000's when a group of plucky young neo-cons decided they knew better than 5 centuries of human moral development and engaged in the wide-spread use of torture.
A very detailed report was generated from that fun little experiement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate...on_CIA_torture Additionally, we have other countries who have engaged in systematic torture and kept records. The Soviet Union is a good example. Several Latin American countries who learned their techniques from us. Also, we have a mountain of historical evidence: the combatants in WWII, the Salem Witch Trials... There is literally endless evidence on this because we humans are sick ***** and every so often one of us has power and thinks, "Eh, all those damn hippies are wrong. Get me some sharp things and I'll find out the answer..." Edit to add: Here's a guy who studied the neuroscience: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.p...=9780674743908
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,872
|
Yes, apparently.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You have fundamentally failed to understand what I'm saying.
Quote:
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#131 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Maybe you addressed it earlier and I missed it, but what is your objection to the Senate Intelligence Committee's 6,000 page analysis of Bush era torture effectiveness?
Some of their findings:
Quote:
Their conclusion is that it was less effective than the forms of interrogation that, say, obtained accurate, useful information from KSM, among others. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,872
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#133 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#134 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
How is giving an example "off the top of [your] head" without checking the details or making sure of its applicability and then lamenting that because someone else did check up on it and thus no evidence will be accepted even if you do actually provide meaningful and researched evidence not the very definition of disingenuous on your part? |
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#135 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
I highlighted the part of your post which was pure speculation. In order to make me look dishonest, you had to make stuff up. Do I have to explain how that's dishonest, beren?
The example works. I remembered it off the top of my head but I did check the details before posting. Why you somehow thought the highlighted was correct is beyond me, unless you did it specifically to make the conversation about me rather than about the example I gave. Either way, you ended up making yourself look bad instead. |
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#136 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,689
|
Governments already routinely use forms of torture which aren't really regarded as torture per se. The most common is probably the removal of freedom (jail, prison, being detained, etc.), and the threat of loss of freedom.
The simple physical presence of police is a potential threat of the loss of freedom if you do not cooperate. Do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing and you will be handcuffed. That is a mild form of torture and we actively avoid it by cooperating. Conventional interrogation can include threats of torture. We aren't going to let you go back home to your family until you tell us what we want to know. We can keep you here for a very long time, but we won't physically touch you. It's a torture that isn't generally regarded as a torture. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#137 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,673
|
That is often the case.
I do not know if you have heard or not, but these days there is actually a considerable amount of skepticism regarding intelligence work. While it is true that very once in a great while, intelligence services do hit a 'home run' which makes them quite appreciated for a least a few years. But the record clearly shows, that nations tend to be be poorly served by their respective intelligence services in spite of the vast amounts of resources that are used to support these intelligence services. But that is a bit off topic for the purposes of this thread. |
__________________
08 JAN 2018 > Trump says that he is "Like, Really Smart" and that he is "a Very Stable Genius". 11 JAN 2018 > During an Oval Office meeting, Trump asks "“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?”" A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#138 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
I heard that somewhere, yes.
The internet is really the place-par-excellence for passive aggressive comments, isn't it? So do you agree that your objection about having to check the information obtained from torture applies to other forms of intelligence gathering or not? |
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#139 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
I did not reply of the top of my head. I researched first. That's how I know that the phrase has a meaning that is the antithesis of looking up facts.
Some examples: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/d...p-of-your-head Note the usage example that puts the phrase and looking something up as opposites. http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/off+the+top+of+head Three explanations that support my understanding. There are more if you want ... You said your "supplied" the example from the "top of [your] head." In other words, what you gave us - "supplied" us- came form the top of your head. This is in no way the same as "remembering it and then researching it. Don't get upset that I believed what your actually said .... Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk |
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#140 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,673
|
Well of course I do agree that information collected via torture should be verified if it is possible to do so.
But even if the information is verified, then it may not be good information all the same. Also, if the information cannot be verified, then it may be good information all the same. I am not trying to be obtuse, but this is an important issue. If the data collected via torture can be verified, then it should be verified. However, if the information can be verified, then that rather implies that the torture was not necessary to begin with since one already had at least one other non-torture data source. On the other hand, if the data obtained via torture cannot be verified, then that data may, or may not, be of use. After all, military decisions are often made on the basis of incomplete and unverified information and if one were to wait until all of the information can be verified, then it is often too late for a military solution. Accordingly, it is often difficult to say if unverified information gained via torture is really of any value at all or that the information produced via torture is actually part of some sort of disinformation mechanism. Again, it all gets back to what I have been saying is that torture is actually a poor way of collecting data. |
__________________
08 JAN 2018 > Trump says that he is "Like, Really Smart" and that he is "a Very Stable Genius". 11 JAN 2018 > During an Oval Office meeting, Trump asks "“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?”" A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#141 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,689
|
Intelligence is inherently covert and classified as Top Secret. We don't know a fraction of what happens because we aren't supposed to. We hear about some "home runs" but we may never hear about all the runners who are "picked off base". The reason is because they don't want the world to know what they are doing, and what they are working on, and how it all happens.
Torture that "works" may be similar in that it's covert and not subject to any form of formal study or evaluation. |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#142 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#143 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#144 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
|
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#145 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#146 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
|
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#147 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#148 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
You need to reread them.
They say things like if you say something off the top of your head, you say it without thinking about it for very long or looking at something that has been written based on what you remember without giving it too much thought or without precise knowledge.* You objected to my saying you didn't check your facts. This supports you how? Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk |
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#149 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
Hey, stop listening to yourself and read what I post: the EXAMPLE was off the top of my head. It doesn't follow that the content of the example was. Like, someone can say "off the top of my head, the most powerful car in the world is the Bugatti Veyron" and then check the information before posting it. It's absolutely not contradictory.
Now would you please drop this ridiculous semantic argument?
Quote:
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#150 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
|
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#151 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#152 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,035
|
|
__________________
Drive-by snark artist. Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort. Band wagon pile-oner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#153 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,673
|
While I do agree with your first paragraph, I do have to take a bit of an exception to your second paragraph.
There are good records from World War II regarding the torture that was done by the Germans and Japanese to learn military secrets, and one will find that the data they obtained was of little, if any, practical value once it was obtained. Also, there is the more recent Senate report on the use of torture during the Bush Administration and they could not even find one case where torture provided any data of any real value. |
__________________
08 JAN 2018 > Trump says that he is "Like, Really Smart" and that he is "a Very Stable Genius". 11 JAN 2018 > During an Oval Office meeting, Trump asks "“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?”" A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#154 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,673
|
Sorry, but I have to unpack this a bit ...
Yes. I do agree that is normally the case. When intelligence is collected, then every attempt is made to verify that intelligence. This fact does indeed apply to cases where intelligence is obtained via non-torture. I hope that clarifies things for you.
Quote:
Thanks much in advance. |
__________________
08 JAN 2018 > Trump says that he is "Like, Really Smart" and that he is "a Very Stable Genius". 11 JAN 2018 > During an Oval Office meeting, Trump asks "“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?”" A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#155 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#156 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
I see your argument.
I think there's more than enough historical data from us, the Soviet Union, Nazis, Latin American countries (whose strong men we installed regularly tortured)....etc. to conclude that it isn't effective. Also, we have plenty of studies about coercive interrogation techniques - there's an entire branch of legal academic studies focusing on these issues - to fairly extrapolate. If less coercive means yield bad information, it's pretty safe to conclude that the effect of more coercive means will just be worse. But yes, the controlled study hasn't been done, nor will it...at least not by us, hopefully. The next Nazis who come along and devote clinical precision to their perversions will have to go down that route. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#157 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
|
|
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#158 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Torture has a legal and internationally established definition. There are obviously cases on the margins that will test any definition, but nothing you mentioned really fits that category.
Quote:
A good example of that is the Brendan Dassey case. There is another interesting case where an officer managed to get 4 people in separate interrogations to confess to a crime they didn't commit entirely by accident - the officer was not trying to force a confession: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...e-confessions/ This is all on a continuum to torture. So I disagree with how you're using "torture," but you are raising a really important point about things we've come to accept as normal being highly coercive. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#159 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#160 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
If someone being tortured will say anything to get the torture to stop, why wouldn't they say the truth?
And as far as non-torture yielding higher quality information, we have many examples of the police eliciting false confessions without the thumb screws. Now, if the answer to that little factoid is that the police were not conducting the interview properly, and that's why they got a false confession, then I'd say the same about a bad torturer - if they are getting bad information, they are doing it wrong. A better way to view the topic is as a scale of incentives and matching the right incentive to the person in front of you. Threats of incarceration or a plea deal might work for one but not for the next. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|