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Old 18th April 2017, 09:55 AM   #2521
Donn
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
To reach the official tally of eleven, I need ten more witnesses. Once I have them my account of Drop Bears in the Pre-Columbian Americas will have met the exact same standard of evidence as the Book of Mormon.

Come forward and TESTIFY my friends!
Ahheye testify, mah brudda from anudda udda! I saw dem dere koalaform writin's on METAL PLATES like it waz thru stone spectackles — an' a innernet vidya played in mah head. A fearsome great DROPBEAR did fall from the back of a SPECKLED GIANT SLOTH and, lo, there, uh.., it was.

Hold my beer.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:57 AM   #2522
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Strawman!!
Eucalyptisbear!
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:03 AM   #2523
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Testify!

That gives THREE witnesses to the Drop Bear Testament.

Zivan
Slowvehicle
Donn

With three witnesses The Drop Bear Testament is now %27 of the way to having met the same standard of evidence as the Book of Mormon. It already has the exact same archeological evidence supporting it as the Book of Mormon.

Amen!
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:14 AM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Can we get Samuel L. Jackson cast as the leader of the Drop Bear Army?
We'll need a whole series of movies in that case:

"Iron Drop Bear 2"
"Captain Drop Bear" (just a cameo at the end)
"The Drop Bears"
"Captain Drop Bear: The Wendigo" (Winter Drop Bear sounded wrong, and this lets me keep after the same comic book universe)
"The Drop Bears: Age of Bunyip" (may as well add another Aussie beast here)

And the spin-off Television Series
"Agents of Drop Bear"
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:20 AM   #2525
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
AMEN!

The first witness has come forward. Remember, in the grand tradition of Mormon witnesses, visions are a legitimate means of seeing the proof you need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

The Book of Mormon had a total of eleven official witnesses, twelve if you count Mary Musselman Whitmer, who claimed to be a witness but Smith never bothered to mention.

To reach the official tally of eleven, I need ten more witnesses. Once I have them my account of Drop Bears in the Pre-Columbian Americas will have met the exact same standard of evidence as the Book of Mormon.

Come forward and TESTIFY my friends!
From the cold and forbidding North comes the story of the Winter Drop Bear, embossed on plates of finest magnesium. Thrill to the vision of their ripping chariot born armies, horses and steel using First Nations apart so thoroughly that no trace can ever be found.

Your copy available now for 10 equal payments of $29.95 + shipping and handling.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:26 AM   #2526
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
From the cold and forbidding North comes the story of the Winter Drop Bear, embossed on plates of finest magnesium. Thrill to the vision of their ripping chariot born armies, horses and steel using First Nations apart so thoroughly that no trace can ever be found.

Your copy available now for 10 equal payments of $29.95 + shipping and handling.
But wait! There is more! If you are one of the first 11 callers, you receive a FREE gift! Yes, absolutely FREE gift of magic underwear*! This FREE gift is yours for only 10 additional easy payments of $29.95 + shipping and handling.

Call now before supplies run out!

*some restrictions may apply. Especially if we send you the wrong size of magic underwear. If they are too small, there will be greater restrictions.

Last edited by Zivan; 18th April 2017 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:25 PM   #2527
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
But wait! There is more! If you are one of the first 11 callers, you receive a FREE gift! Yes, absolutely FREE gift of magic underwear*!
Dropbares!
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:46 PM   #2528
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Dropbears on a plain.
I'm rethinking my user name, though it can never be capitalized, even at the start of a sentence.

What the **** are dropbears? I don't actually have to read the BOM, do I? I mean, I understand the KJV fine, but the BOM was insufferably forced, like by a guy who didn't understand his source material. I lasted two pages.
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Old 19th April 2017, 09:00 PM   #2529
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A drop bear is a vicious killer Koala. Also some software.
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Old 19th April 2017, 10:34 PM   #2530
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I thought it was what happens when you leave gummi bears out in the sun.
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:28 AM   #2531
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I'm rethinking my user name, though it can never be capitalized, even at the start of a sentence.

What the **** are dropbears? I don't actually have to read the BOM, do I? I mean, I understand the KJV fine, but the BOM was insufferably forced, like by a guy who didn't understand his source material. I lasted two pages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_bear
Quote:
A drop bear (sometimes dropbear) is a hoax in contemporary Australian folklore featuring a predatory, carnivorous version of the koala (Phascolarctos cinereus). This imaginary animal is commonly spoken about in tall tales designed to scare tourists. While koalas are typically docile herbivores (and notably, not bears), drop bears are described as unusually large and vicious marsupials that inhabit treetops and attack unsuspecting people (or other prey) that walk beneath them by dropping onto their heads from above
http://www.australiangeographic.com....s,-study-says/
Quote:
There has been relatively little scientific research into the drop bear (Thylarctos plummetus), which the Australian Museum describes as a "large, arboreal, predatory marsupial related to the koala." Populations are thought mainly to exist in forested coastal regions of eastern and southern Australia, stretching from the Cape York Peninsula to Tasmania.
...but they appear to prey on people with non-Oz accents before cobbers.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:43 AM   #2532
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I'm rethinking my user name, though it can never be capitalized, even at the start of a sentence.



What the **** are dropbears? I don't actually have to read the BOM, do I? I mean, I understand the KJV fine, but the BOM was insufferably forced, like by a guy who didn't understand his source material. I lasted two pages.


Translation errors. Smith was a TERRIBLE translator. He cut out the drop bears for crying out loud! Clearly, the Mormon god is calling me to do a fresh translation of the Book of Mormon to fix all of Smith's cock-ups.

BOM: Drop Bears Revealed. coming this fall to Kindle.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:40 AM   #2533
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Has anyone ever published a parody of the BOM? I doubt it, because it's an old, wise rule among parodists that you can't lampoon something that's no damn good to start with.

Hell yes I've tried reading it. I didn't get beyond the 300th. "and it came to pass." That was about two chapters in. I don't fault myself for that; self-destructiveness is a bad practice.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:03 AM   #2534
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Thylarctos plummetus. That's funny!
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:18 AM   #2535
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I thought it was what happens when you leave gummi bears out in the sun.
You are thinking of the dreaded droopbear.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:45 PM   #2536
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Has anyone ever published a parody of the BOM? I doubt it, because it's an old, wise rule among parodists that you can't lampoon something that's no damn good to start with.

Hell yes I've tried reading it. I didn't get beyond the 300th. "and it came to pass." That was about two chapters in. I don't fault myself for that; self-destructiveness is a bad practice.


When I read it I used the Gutenberg edition. I did a search and replace on the common phrases. For example I replaced "and it came to pass" with AICTP. Since my career is an IT I'm used to reading acronym soup and filling in the rest mentally. This made the book surprisingly more readable.

Sadly, I did not keep my modified version of the book of Mormon. I probably should have. Maybe I'll go back and reproduce the effort. I have to admit, if I'm going to do the BOM drop bear addition I might as well do a few other variations as well while I'm at it. Slogging through that much ether in print is something one does not want to do multiple times.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:02 PM   #2537
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Originally Posted by fibbermcgee View Post
A drop bear is a vicious killer Koala.
I have long considered my Strine brethren as our sillier (compliment) cousins. In the states we allowed far too much immigration from what became Germany, resulting a preference for fart jokes. I recently learned I carry 92% more Neanderthal genes than the average European, so fart jokes are in my nature, but the rest of me prefers silly.
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:31 AM   #2538
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
You are thinking of the dreaded droopbear.
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:33 AM   #2539
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I recently learned I carry 92% more Neanderthal genes than the average European, so fart jokes are in my nature, but the rest of me prefers silly.
Farts can be silly, properly pitched!
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:40 AM   #2540
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The problem with the skeptics' approach to the BOM's authenticity is, it focuses on the nitpicky details, while the true believer focuses on the doctrines instead. To date, I've never seen anyone disprove the Christian doctrines and teachings of the BOM. Skeptics tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

bb
Why disprove anything when it's the claimant's burden to prove their positive claim?
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Old 21st April 2017, 06:47 AM   #2541
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The problem with the skeptics' approach to the BOM's authenticity is, it focuses on the nitpicky details, while the true believer focuses on the doctrines instead.
The doctrines in the Book of Mormon are Christian only if you can show they have something to do with Jesus Christ. The book satisfies this claim prima facie by claiming Jesus visiting the people living in the Americas shortly after his death. That is the only basis upon which a claim of Christianity can be made, and its historicity is not therefore merely a nitpick. You bear the burden to prove that there existed a people for Christ to visit, and that he actually did so, before you can claim a Christian origin for what the book claims as doctrine. That burden is made immovably heavy by the wealth of archaeological information about the Americas and the complete lack in it of anything whatsoever supporting the Book of Mormon. Mormon scholars admit this lack, even if the church leaders do not.

And again you seem to be young enough in the Mormon curch not to remember (or know at all) that the issue of Book of Mormon historicity supported by archeology was first affirmed by the Mormon church. It was their attempts to equate ancient sites and artifacts to those in the Book of Mormon, and concepts such as the feathered serpent to Christian ideas like angels or the resurrected Jesus, that first raised this issue. The demand to prove historicity is not just some stunt dreamed up by critics to discredit Mormonism by any "nitpicky" means at their disposal. It is a direct rebuttal to claims made by the church, but now abandoned.

There was an article this week in the Salt Lake Tribune investigating the reasons why some become disaffected with Mormonism. It turns out a leading factor is not that church history and doctrine are not as sanitary as they were taught, but rather that questioning Mormons had to learn about the facts from outside sources. People leave the Mormon church because the leadership lies to them and teaches only a cherry-picked version of church history and practice. Before railing against your critics for their allegedly improper approach to challenging church claims, you should consider that you don't know as much about your own church as outsiders do.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:32 AM   #2542
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The doctrines in the Book of Mormon are Christian only if you can show they have something to do with Jesus Christ. The book satisfies this claim prima facie by claiming Jesus visiting the people living in the Americas shortly after his death. That is the only basis upon which a claim of Christianity can be made, and its historicity is not therefore merely a nitpick. You bear the burden to prove that there existed a people for Christ to visit, and that he actually did so, before you can claim a Christian origin for what the book claims as doctrine. That burden is made immovably heavy by the wealth of archaeological information about the Americas and the complete lack in it of anything whatsoever supporting the Book of Mormon. Mormon scholars admit this lack, even if the church leaders do not.

And again you seem to be young enough in the Mormon curch not to remember (or know at all) that the issue of Book of Mormon historicity supported by archeology was first affirmed by the Mormon church. It was their attempts to equate ancient sites and artifacts to those in the Book of Mormon, and concepts such as the feathered serpent to Christian ideas like angels or the resurrected Jesus, that first raised this issue. The demand to prove historicity is not just some stunt dreamed up by critics to discredit Mormonism by any "nitpicky" means at their disposal. It is a direct rebuttal to claims made by the church, but now abandoned.

There was an article this week in the Salt Lake Tribune investigating the reasons why some become disaffected with Mormonism. It turns out a leading factor is not that church history and doctrine are not as sanitary as they were taught, but rather that questioning Mormons had to learn about the facts from outside sources. People leave the Mormon church because the leadership lies to them and teaches only a cherry-picked version of church history and practice. Before railing against your critics for their allegedly improper approach to challenging church claims, you should consider that you don't know as much about your own church as outsiders do.
Nice answer but I think it's wasted. Billy may have actually left the building this time. We'll have to wait and see, though.

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Old 21st April 2017, 08:42 AM   #2543
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Nice answer but I think it's wasted. Billy may have actually left the building this time. We'll have to wait and see, though.
It'll be here if and when he returns.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:31 AM   #2544
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Nice answer but I think it's wasted. Billy may have actually left the building this time.
According to his user profile he accessed the forum within the last 24 hours. So he still seems to be reading, even if he's stopped posting.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:49 AM   #2545
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Post

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
According to his user profile he accessed the forum within the last 24 hours. So he still seems to be reading, even if he's stopped posting.
I suspect he's either waiting for someone to post something he feels like responding to, or he's praying the DropBear Epistle doesn't reach the 11 endorsers that would put it on par with the Book of Mormon in terms of evidence.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:24 AM   #2546
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
According to his user profile he accessed the forum within the last 24 hours. So he still seems to be reading, even if he's stopped posting.
I normally access the forum through Tapatalk and user info is limited.

So, he reads the forum but seems to have given up posting. Maybe that translates to something like shut up and listen?

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Old 21st April 2017, 10:26 AM   #2547
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I suspect he's either waiting for someone to post something he feels like responding to, or he's praying the DropBear Epistle doesn't reach the 11 endorsers that would put it on par with the Book of Mormon in terms of evidence.
I'd like to witness, but I'm afraid it would conflict with my FSM ordination. I'll have to consult a stripper about it.

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Old 21st April 2017, 10:31 AM   #2548
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I'd like to witness, but I'm afraid it would conflict with my FSM ordination. I'll have to consult a stripper about it.
I see no inherent conflict between the DropBear Epistle and the FSM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 11:03 AM   #2549
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Depending on the stripper, one can have a rather pleasant bear drop...
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:28 AM   #2550
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It'll be here if and when he returns.
I disagree that it was "wasted"...TY for continuing to teach.

As far as Mr. Baxter profiting, however, it is true: all our efforts were wasted from the beginning...
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:29 AM   #2551
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I'd like to witness, but I'm afraid it would conflict with my FSM ordination. I'll have to consult a stripper about it.

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Think of it as an exercise in comparative austropology...
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:31 AM   #2552
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Depending on the stripper, one can have a rather pleasant bear drop...
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Old 25th April 2017, 09:06 AM   #2553
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Are we talking about the same book??? The BOM mentions Christ and his doctrine on virtually every page.
I want to revisit this because Zivan has made some excellent points in another thread that are relevant here. The fact that 600 BCE Jews were expressing not only an overtly Christian concept of a messiah but the concept of a messiah at all, is proof the Book of Mormon is a forgery.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The BOM mentions Christ and his doctrine on virtually every page.
If the BoM were legitimate, then this would not be the case.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The concept of "The Messiah" is post-tanakh. Jews in 600 bce did not even have the concept because it was not invented yet. Josef smith was smoking something..........
The concept of a messiah expressed by the Jews depicted in the BoM simply did not exist at the time. In the quotes below Zivan explains how the concept of a "messiah" would eventually be understood by Jews, but not until a few huncred years AFTER the time period claimed by the BoM.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Radically different than the xian "prophecies".

There is no virgin birth "prophecy", no born in bethlehem "prophecy", no dying/resurrection "prophecy", no sacrificial savior from sins "prophecy", no god-man "prophecy", no from nazereth "prophecy", no second coming "prophecy", etc., etc.

The word translated to english as "messiah" is the hebrew word, "mashiakh", which simply means, "anointed with oil". (Specifically, the special oil used according to the recipe as described in tanakh).

In tanakh, all the jewish kings were anointed with the oil, and they were all messiahs. Some of the priests and prophets were anointed with oil as well and were also messiahs. Additionally, even inanimate objects, such as the temple and various objects used in the temple, were also anointed with the special oil.

The word "mashiakh" (messiah) is used 39 times in tanakh. But xian translations only translate it as "messiah" twice, both in the book of daniel, and both times with a capital "M" to make it appear to be a "prophecy about jesus". They even use the definite article "the" (which is not in the hebrew). Also, the translations make it look like there is only one "messiah" ("The Messiah") when the hebrew is actually speaking of two different anointed ones, living about four centuries apart. Some translations also translate "anointed" as "Messiah" in one or two of the psalms, again to make it appear as a "prophecy about jesus".

The rest of the 35-37 times the word "mashiakh" is found in tanakh, xian translators translate it correctly as "anointed", because they can not make jesus "fit" into the verse.

A fun one is where cyrus the great of persia is called god's anointed (isaiah 45:1). I wonder why xian translators do not translate THAT one as "God's Messiah".

Jesus did not meet any of the messianic prophecies. I think about the only "messianic" prophecy judaism and xianity have in common is the "descend from king david" one. But jesus did not even qualify for that one according to the nt geneaologies.

Do you mean the "dual prophecy" idea? Or "multiple fulfillment"? That is also a xian concept, but not a jewish one.
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Then she is definitely among the vast majority of jews! (Most are secular anyway). Among jews it is just a minor issue, rarely thought about. It is not a "big deal" like the xian version of "the messiah" is. Among jews it is usually mentioned as a passing comment, if talked about at all. It only becomes an "issue" when talking to xians trying to convert us.
...
Basically, judaism is not concerned with who The Messiah is. It is not important. He will simply be the anointed king/ruler during the Messianic Era, a time of world peace where "swords will become plowshears". No war, the 12 tribes will be re-united, he will be a just and wise ruler. He will be a mortal, born of two human parents, in the normal way, will live and die like a normal person. He will be married with children. He will be of the tribe of judah, a descendent of king david through solomon. There is no specific time or place of his birth. No mention of how he will die. No one has to "believe in" him. He will not "save us from our sins" nor will he be "sacrificed as atonement" for anyone. He will not be "divine" or a god, or a god-man. There will be no "second coming". Either he accomplishes everything the first time (world peace, re-uniteting the tribes, etc) or he is not The Messiah.

Judaism is about this life, an "afterlife" is not important and is not even defined in tanakh. We are to focus on this life, and tikun olam---"repairing the world". Tikun olam can be any act of kindness, helping others, helping the planet, giving charity (which is actually called "justice". There is no word for "charity" because it implies superiority on the giver, and both the giver and receiver are considered equal. It is considered justice for one who has more to help one who has less, not considered "charity").

(Sorry is this was not explained very well. Just ask for me to clarify any/all the confusing/badly worded parts)..............
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I learned about this stuff to counter the obnoxious missionaries always harrassing us. Otherwise I would not have known.

One of their favorite "proof text" is daniel 9:25-26. The kjv was the usual one used by protestant xians until all the various newer translations came out. The missionaries use one of the newer translations but tell us it is "about jesus".

I just looked at "bible hub" and many of the translations have "anointed" but it is still with a capital "A", has a definite article, "the" and still makes it look like one person, instead of two.

http://biblehub.com/daniel/9-25.htm
The theology of the Book of Mormon and the time period in which it claims to occur are proof that it is a fabrication. It expresses a theology that would not exist anywhere in the world until a good 40 to 100 years AFTER the death of Christ. 100 CE to 150 CE theology is being discussed by 600 BCE Jews. It's about as plausible as the scenes in Disney's Alladin where the genie is making 20th-century pop culture references.
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Old 30th April 2017, 08:14 PM   #2554
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Mormons have so far failed to penetrate the pickup artist community. This is why:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pickup-artistry
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Old 30th April 2017, 09:45 PM   #2555
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Has anyone ever published a parody of the BOM?
The Book of Mormon

Saw it play in Los Angeles. Great fun.
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Old 1st May 2017, 08:47 AM   #2556
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Mormons have so far failed to penetrate the pickup artist community. This is why:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pickup-artistry
But you can't make this stuff up. About five years ago there was a controversy at BYU involving students who would drive to Las Vegas for the weekend, get married, have all the sex they wanted, and then get divorced before returning home to Utah. "What happens in Vegas..."
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Old 1st May 2017, 08:49 AM   #2557
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
The Book of Mormon

Saw it play in Los Angeles. Great fun.
Saw it in Salt Lake City. I guarantee it was more fun.
"Salt Lake City's not a real place; it's just a metaphor."
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Old 1st May 2017, 09:23 AM   #2558
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Of that I have no doubt.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 01:22 PM   #2559
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I suspect he's either waiting for someone to post something he feels like responding to, or he's praying the DropBear Epistle doesn't reach the 11 endorsers that would put it on par with the Book of Mormon in terms of evidence.
Um, do I have to be witty and/or funny in order to testify to the DropBear Epistle? I did have a beer with dinner last night, so that can't hurt, right? I mean, with the whole witnessing thing?
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Old 3rd May 2017, 02:06 PM   #2560
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Originally Posted by GuitKitty View Post
Um, do I have to be witty and/or funny in order to testify to the DropBear Epistle? I did have a beer with dinner last night, so that can't hurt, right? I mean, with the whole witnessing thing?
Having a beer definitely helps the whole witnessing thing!

Now there are four witnesses!

Last edited by Zivan; 3rd May 2017 at 02:08 PM.
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