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Old 12th November 2013, 04:31 PM   #241
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...What's your view on interracial marriage Janadele?
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.
Those who can be made to believe in absurdities...
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Old 12th November 2013, 05:31 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Kindly note that I haven't said "homosexuals are bad parents." I have
quoted sources indicating that children do better when raised by a father and a mother. Please don't misquote me (which you do again in the next para.).
It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.
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Old 12th November 2013, 05:55 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
. . .Each of the arguments made against gay marriage have been chipped away by statistics, until all that's left is religious belief. You have failed to demonstrate actual societal harm to children or families from gay marriage.
That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/...s-gender-an...
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Old 12th November 2013, 06:17 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/...s-gender-an...
Once again, having spent money and urged it's members to support prop 8 the Mormon church backed defendants in the trial did not provide any scientific data to support the notion that children raised by gays and lesbians are in any way at greater risk of harm than children raised by heterosexuals. That was the church's great opportunity to demonstrate that there is any such harm...

BUT SO WHAT?

Seriously, why won't you address the elephant in the room. We know that the fact that children born to poor parents are by definition born disadvantaged and that is not a valid reason to prevent poor people from marrying. So why are you talking about children at all? What is your point? What is your argument?

If you are sincerely interested in the health and well being of children then you are looking at the wrong group.
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Old 12th November 2013, 06:25 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Seriously? It means that the thread had gotten so long that some people were having trouble loading it, so it was closed and a second thread on the same topic was opened.
If that is true, then "Mormonic Boogaloo" should not be included in the title of this 2nd Thread as that is not within the title of the original.
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Old 12th November 2013, 06:34 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/...s-gender-an...
Please post from the article directly and provide a link to the article.
Christine Kim is unreliable as a source, as she intentionally distorts the claims from reports, as I and others have already shown.
It doesn't help your argument to continually rely on sources who are dishonest.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
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Old 12th November 2013, 08:30 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.
I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.

During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
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Old 12th November 2013, 08:31 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.
Or, Smith was a liar and a fraud (a charge you've done nothing to refute) and there is no reason to believe this. Hmm... Which is more likely?
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Old 12th November 2013, 08:50 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively.

Not having a male role model appears to have worked out for the President of the United States.

But this is all just a side show. My recent post attacking gay marriage appears to me to be the only logical argument that can be made from the Mormon perspective. The desire of some Mormons to avoid being labeled prejudiced is strong, but it is not laudable when it is not the truth.
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Old 12th November 2013, 08:51 PM   #250
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I've studied enough Sociology and Public Health to know about gay marriage. My dad is also a "Distinguished Professor" of Human Development and Family Science. In addition to all that, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence within my giant extended family. ALL of it points to the children of gay couples generally turning out a little bit wealthier, a little bit more 'intelligent' and a little bit more 'happy.'

All that said, Can we PLEASE move this discussion on? Is the only thing about LDS that JanAdelle and Skyrider want to pass on is intolerance? Jan is abhorrent on the issue, and Skyrider is at best, um, squishy on the issue. We get it. So, maybe we can now move on to other aspects of this faith?
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Old 12th November 2013, 08:57 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Those sources made it sound like the modern LDS church was denying they ever sanctioned polygamay. From what I can gather, the LDS church did issue such denials during the time period when there were a lot of legal headaches around polygamy, but the modern church no longer denies it as part of their past. Is this a correct description of the situation?
Interesting question. I've not done enough research into the practice of polygamy in the early days of the Church to really converse much about it. What I can tell you is that since I joined the church well over 20 years ago, the church has not been shy about admitting that we've practiced it. I mean, we don't stand upon the rooftops and shout it out, but it is talked about and discussed several times a year when discussing the "D&C and Church History," or the Teachings of Lorenzo Snow (both this year's course of study). I'm pretty sure I answered your question, if not let me know.

It's something that, if you give me a couple months, I can look into in my spare time cause it's one of those things I'm now interested in. In just a quick 5 minute search I did find some things that looked interesting in the Deseret News and other online newspapers. I should say, historic newspapers, not recent. I'll get back to you on that later.
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Old 12th November 2013, 09:03 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.
It's been explained to you MANY TIMES that the study by the Mayo Clinic is not being doubted. The cherry-picking of individual quotes from the article, however is quite biased. Especially when the study itself points out that many of the problems that gays face- the serious problems you yourself point out- are indeed probably caused by the prejudice and social stigmatization homosexuals face in society, such as not being allowed to marry.

Stop pretending you don't understand this.
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Old 12th November 2013, 09:07 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
These seem like the same problems one would expect from anyone raised by a single parent. I would imagine that being raised by two parents, even of the same gender, would be preferable in any case. The life experiences and secondary family resources would be greater for the child in question. Not ideal, of course, but better than not allowing a single gay parent to marry at all, don't you think?
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Old 12th November 2013, 09:12 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.
The Mayo Clinic page that you linked to does not oppose same-sex marriage. To claim so is dishonest.

Quote:
During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."
One man's experience doesn't amount to scientific evidence, it only amounts to anecdote. The things that Mr. Lopez reports could be unique to whatever aspects of his psychology lead him to think that his mother's lesbian partnership is to blame for his social awkwardness. What "unspoken gender cues" is he talking about?

Quote:
I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents.
The most that you can say is that it is representative of Mr. Lopez's experience.

Quote:
I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
How did my brother-in-law, raised by a single mother, manage to become a loving father to three children without a male role model? I'm reminded of a line from a song: "It's no fun to be told that you can't blame your parents anymore."

Quote:
Another biased source with a political agenda. The Witherspoon Institute funded the problematic Regnerus study.
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Old 12th November 2013, 09:15 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
I grew up poor. My life was very difficult. I suffered neglect and abuse. I had both a mother AND a father. So what?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

So what if Mr. Lopez had a difficult life? What conclusions are we to infer from that fact? What conclusions are we to infer from the fact that poor children are more likely to be neglected and abused than children born to wealthy families? I reject your premise but even if we grant it. EVEN IF we grant it, what does that have to do with anything?

DO YOU HAVE A POINT?
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Old 12th November 2013, 09:36 PM   #256
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How about an example of an individual experience that runs opposite to that of Robert Lopez?

Zach Wahls stated, in a speech made before the Iowa State Legislature, "In my 19 years, not once have I ever been confronted by an individual who realized independently that I was raised by a gay couple. And you know why? Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero affect on the content of my character."

Wahls is an Eagle Scout who attained a 99th percentile score on his college aptitude test.

I'm sorry that Robert Lopez feels so socially awkward, but how can we determine if his individual experience is the result of being raised by lesbian parents? Had he been raised by heterosexual parents, would he have managed to lose his virginity in high school? I know people who have blamed their parents for their own failings, why should Robert Lopez's personal account be taken as evidence that his lesbian mother is to blame for his disappointment with himself?
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Old 12th November 2013, 10:49 PM   #257
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You can keep citing studies from conservative and religious sources till the cows come home. You may even be right some of the time (though I would not bank on it). The one thing you have not done, because I believe you cannot ever do it, is to demonstrate that adding the option of single sex marriage to the world as it actually exists will make anything worse.

Opponents of gay marriage are in a bind here. It is unacceptable to be, or at least to appear to be, anti-gay, to oppose the existing rights of homosexuals. But it leaves them nothing with which to oppose same sex marriage. We see the difficulty over and over here, the rhetoric of anti-homosexuality is recycled unapologetically as if it were applied only to the issue of marriage itself.

Even in places where gay marriage does not yet exist, gay people exist. Gay couples exist. Children of those people exist. Theoretical musings on the ideal are irrelevant if you are pretending you do not want to change the real.

Even if we were to stipulate (and it's only a stipulation here) that the children of gay couples are disadvantaged over the children of straight couples, not one iota of evidence has been presented that allowing those gay couples to marry will make the situation worse, rather than better.

Even if we were to stipulate (and it's only a stipulation here, and a tenuous one at that) that allowing gay marriage would increase the number of gay parental couples in the world, not one iota of evidence has been presented that this would decrease the number of children in heterosexual families.

Even if we were to stipulate (and remember it's only a stipulation here) that gay people are more promiscuous than straight people, not one iota of evidence has been presented that allowing those people to marry will make the situation worse, rather than better.

And so it goes. Reams of superfluous information have been presented that suggest, rightly or wrongly, what the ideal family is for children to grow up in. But nothing has been presented to suggest that adding single sex marriage to the civil options offered by society will make a single thing worse for anyone except for those jealous of the traditional definition of marriage.

Really, folks. It does not matter what the Mayo Clinic says (or what one or the other careless reader thinks it says) about the risk of homosexual practices. It does not matter what this or that organization says about what is risky or dirty or icky or sinful, or how they wish the world would be. None of it matters unless one is lying about what is being argued here. A small group of people want to achieve equality and rights that in many places are not yet theirs. The benefit to them is real, at least insofar as they believe it to be. If you want to argue against that, you need to show how in the real world of real people who really exist right now, society will sustain harm whose price offsets that benefit. As in many parts of the world, it has not happened in this thread. I don't think it can be.

On the other hand, the opposite has happened in many parts of the world. It's time to stop wondering and start looking around.
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Old 12th November 2013, 10:54 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
How about an example of an individual experience that runs opposite to that of Robert Lopez?

Zach Wahls stated, in a speech made before the Iowa State Legislature, "In my 19 years, not once have I ever been confronted by an individual who realized independently that I was raised by a gay couple. And you know why? Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero affect on the content of my character."

Wahls is an Eagle Scout who attained a 99th percentile score on his college aptitude test.

I'm sorry that Robert Lopez feels so socially awkward, but how can we determine if his individual experience is the result of being raised by lesbian parents? Had he been raised by heterosexual parents, would he have managed to lose his virginity in high school? I know people who have blamed their parents for their own failings, why should Robert Lopez's personal account be taken as evidence that his lesbian mother is to blame for his disappointment with himself?
There are lots of such anecdotes. Children want to be loved and two parents seems to be the magic number. The evidence provided by council at the prop 8 trial was conclusive. No evidence was provided by the defense. That was their opportunity and suddenly the dog ate their paperwork.

But all of that is irrelevant. It is legal for gays and lesbians to have children. Marriage does not figure into the number of children that gays and lesbians are likely to have.

Skyridder won't answer the question. Can anyone else offer an answer? So, what if we were to grant his premise for argument sake? What possible difference does it make? What ramifications would that have on poor people whose children are measurably disadvantaged? What about single parents? What are we to do about this sub-prime situations?

We are missing a part of the equation. There's a great big gap. Is there anyone that can fill that in without special pleading?
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Old 13th November 2013, 03:35 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.
Did you feel this way about the meaning of the Tower of Babel before you became Mormon?

How to joining the LDS Church change your views on race relations, if it all?

You mentioned the pre-existence. Was coming to believe in the pre-existence something that was added to your existing beliefs about race relations, or did it influence and change your beliefs? If so, how?
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Old 13th November 2013, 03:39 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post

I'd like to see some statistics from geographically dispersed areas of the country before making a judgment.



That's true--for now. But will it remain that way if gay marriage becomes legal nationwide?
Keep in mind gay marriage has been legal in some other countries for a very long time. We have a wealth of statistical information from those other countries about this. In general, it looks like gay marriages do tend to be a bit more resistant to divorce than straight marriages. Although, strangely, among the Dutch, lesbians get divorced more often than gay men...
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Old 13th November 2013, 03:46 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.
Based on what we know of interracial marriages that's actually be expected at this stage. Children of families where the relationship of the parents is disapproved of by the surrounding society are less likely to graduate from high school. We've already seen that Legalizing gay marriage reduces the stigma of being gay. Program such as "it gets better" and assorted anti-bullying campaigns are going to contribute to this trend is well.

It really is astounding how well the gay rights movement and the arguments for it are mirroring the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Even the way that homophobia negatively impacts the children of homosexuals is shockingly similar to the way racism impacts the children of minorities and mixed-race families.

The more you tell me, the stronger my support becomes for marriage equality. You're elucidating of wealth of ways that marriage equality benefits society as a whole and the children of gay families in particular.
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Old 13th November 2013, 05:30 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I raise the point, which is relevant, because in 2001 (yes, it's old data) 80% of heterosexual couples remained married after five years; 66% after 10 years; and 57% after 15 years. For male homosexuals in relationships, less than 1% remained together after just a year; after 1-3 years, 31% were still together; and after 4-7 years, 29%.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfi=IS04C02
Loss Leader has already fisked your stats and demonstrated that they don't say anything like what you claim they do. This is becoming a pattern.

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Yes, the homosexual couples did not have the benefit of marriage, which may, indeed, explain the differences. I'm simply asking if there is reason to believe that marriage will cause gay couples to stay together for periods that approximate the figures for married heterosexual couples.
With no plausible basis for considering that it wouldn't, and no justification for considering such a question relevant to the question of whether they should be permitted a basic civil recognition of their relationship. Did you have a point, or were you just JAQing off?

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I sincerely hope that it will be a "stabilising" influence, but only time will tell.
Yet you don't seem to want to find out, as you persistently use this perceived hypothetical risk as a reason for denying same-sex couples the right to marry. I'm appalled, but not surprised.

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I haven't thrown out anything, wildly or otherwise.
I beg to differ. Every reason you have given for opposing same-sex marriage is a poorly-considered, inconsistent post hoc rationalisation of a position you decided on for other reasons. The studies and statistics you quote are overwhelmingly from heavily biased, ideologically motivated sources, and you typically misunderstand or misrepresent them in your haste to find some sort of foundation for your position. Not only that, but even if they were impeccable sources, meticulously reported, they still wouldn't offer a reason for denying same-sex couples the opportunity to marry.

Your arguments are so weak and incoherent that Loss Leader has taken the time to construct an argument on your behalf, just to move the discussion along. When your opponents can effortlessly make your case better than you can, doesn't that give you food for thought?
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Old 13th November 2013, 06:35 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Please post from the article directly and provide a link to the article. Christine Kim is unreliable as a source, as she intentionally distorts the claims from reports, as I and others have already shown.
It doesn't help your argument to continually rely on sources who are dishonest.
I wanted to post the article proper, but there's a $39 fee.

Re. Ms. Kim: I know she has written extensively on same-sex marriage. It may not be fair--nor accurate--to claim that she "intentionally distorts the claims from reports."
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Old 13th November 2013, 06:52 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
. . .One man's experience doesn't amount to scientific evidence, it only amounts to anecdote.
Having said that, you then say this:

Quote:
How did my brother-in-law, raised by a single mother, manage to become a loving father to three children without a male role model?
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Old 13th November 2013, 07:21 AM   #265
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[quote=RandFan;9621660] Skyridder sicwon't answer the question.

The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.

When children do best, all of society benefits.

Those who are pushing the gay agenda are free, of course, to continue doing so, including calling me a bigot. As for myself, however, I will have nothing more to say on the subject.
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Old 13th November 2013, 08:47 AM   #266
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[quote=skyrider44;9621448]I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.[/qutoe]
Actually, you don't understand.
I am referring to the fact that your sources are biased and intentionally misrepresent data to further a clear anti-gay agenda. Not only that, but you are also intentionally misrepresenting articles to further your own anti-gay agenda. Just like you are misrepresenting my statement to mean something I do not mean.
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Old 13th November 2013, 09:08 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Skyridder won't answer the question. Can anyone else offer an answer? So, what if we were to grant his premise for argument sake? What possible difference does it make? What ramifications would that have on poor people whose children are measurably disadvantaged? What about single parents? What are we to do about this sub-prime situations?

We are missing a part of the equation. There's a great big gap. Is there anyone that can fill that in without special pleading?
I don't think the people using the argument are really thinking it through to that extent. There seems to be a fantasy that denying gay marriage will magically keep kids from being born to gay couples. While it would prevent adoption, the kids will still be born and will end up growing up in households where their parents aren't married. Denying gay marriage exacerbates the problem, it doesn't make it better.

If, however, we get to the point where being "disadvantaged" is enough reason to remove a child from the household, you start marching towards things like Australia's "Stolen Generation" or Canada's forced sterilization program. Those are not theoretical, but very real historical precedents. Mormons should be wary of letting this line of thinking continue, as being a religious minority in most the country, they'd fare no better in terms of keeping their kids than Muslims. The Dominion and Evangelical believers likely to move forward with a "Lost Generation" scenario see Mormons as delusional Pagans at best. Mormons wouldn't be in the first round to lose their kids or face forced sterilization, but having grown up among the people who would be leading the charge in an American Theocracy, I can tell you Mormons would be targeted eventually.
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Old 13th November 2013, 09:42 AM   #268
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The motives for the marginalizing of gays and opposition to gay marriage are well understood by most of us, and it is not productive to attempt to couch these religious and immature reasons in terms of concern for children or states' rights. We know what is going on.

Hawaii has just passed their same sex marriage law, and Illinois will soon follow. It doesn't matter what Utah does or what some LDS members think; most religions eventually either just follow those who do the right thing after seeing that it was in retrospect the right thing, or else they themselves become marginal fringe cults. I suspect when membership begins to wither because of the bigoted views required by the church, some prophet will suddenly get the message from god that gay marriages were always meant to be.

The video of Rep. Ing's speech captures why this thread's exposure of the paucity of arguments against the gay "lifestyle" is so clear.

Quote:
Rep. Kaniela Ing (D - South Maui) not only delivered an inspiring nine-minute speech in favor of marriage equality in the Aloha State, but he took listeners on a journey through his own self-discovery and realization of why rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) individuals are so important.

Last edited by Olowkow; 13th November 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 13th November 2013, 10:31 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Having said that, you then say this:
It is a direct response to your question, "How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?". It shows why your presentation of Robert Lopez's testimony doesn't amount to evidence. He blames the lack of a male role model for his being a "social outcast", having "girlish mannerisms", and not getting laid in high school, then he happens to mention that he was gay then, and now considers himself bisexual. Many people grow up without a father in the family, and they don't complain of such things. People don't encounter effeminate men and automatically assume he didn't grow up with a male role model in the home. When a claim is based on a single account, then another single counter-example is sufficient to establish the invalidity of applying that account to a general population. If someone says he won't hire Irishmen because they are drunks, and he supports this claim by pointing out that his Irish neighbor is an alcoholic, I don't need to counter with a sociological study to prove the fallaciousness of his generalization. Simply pointing to another Irish neighbor who doesn't care for alcohol is enough.

As to your question, I have a couple of counter questions: How does a girl learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by a single father? How does a boy learn to be a father if he is raised by a single mother? You are implying that same-sex parents will and do result in opposite gender children having no idea how to "behave like a man" or "behave like a woman". If this was true we would see experiences like Robert Lopez's described in vast numbers by children who grew up without a gender role model in otherwise stable and supportive homes. The answer to your question is, "It depends on the individual, but a great many girls make fine mothers despite having grown up without a mother in the family.



And what are "unspoken gender cues" anyway?
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Old 13th November 2013, 10:43 AM   #270
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[quote=skyrider44;9622178]
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Skyridder sicwon't answer the question.

The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.

When children do best, all of society benefits.

Those who are pushing the gay agenda are free, of course, to continue doing so, including calling me a bigot. As for myself, however, I will have nothing more to say on the subject.
Perhaps it is true. But there are plenty of children that do well with only one parent, or with parents of the same gender. There seems to be no reason to discriminate because 'FOR THE CHILDREN!'

Of course, to be consistent, you want to deny equal rights to gays for the children. Shall we also take away children who have single parent households, and give them to households with a married couple of man and wife? That is the logical conclusion.

If you do not, then there is absolutely no reason to deny marriage rights to a gay household because 'children need a mother and a father'.
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Old 13th November 2013, 10:51 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
False. I posted the New Family Structures Study (NFSS), conducted by U. of Texas-Austin sociologist Dr. Mark Regnerus, which clearly showed that young adults whose parents had been in same-sex relationships fared poorly compared to parents who had not been in such relationships.
About that "study"...

FLORIDA: Judge Orders UCF To Release Documents In Debunked Regnerus Study

Judge Orders Disclosure of Documents Detailing Publication of Regnerus’ Junk Science

Quote:
Almost from the moment it was released, the 2012 New Family Structures Study raised red flags among family scholars for its results that suggest that children are less likely to thrive when raised by gay and lesbian parents than if raised by straight parents. The study is a clear outlier among 30 years’ worth of social science that suggest that children thrive equally well in two parent households, regardless of the genders of their parents. It was soon revealed that Regnerus’s study utterly failed to control for error. The study’s so-called “straight” households featured heterosexual parents in committed, long-term relationships, whereas the so-called “gay” households failed to feature same-sex couples in comparable relationships. In today’s opinion, Orange County Circuit Judge Donald Grincewicz ruled that emails and documents possessed by University of Central Florida (UCF) related to the flawed study’s peer-review process must be turned over to John Becker, who sought the documents under Florida’s Public Records Act. UCF houses the journal Social Science Research, which published the Regnerus study, and the editor of the journal, UCF Professor James Wright, led the peer-review process for the research. Becker is represented by the Law Office of Andrea Flynn Mogensen, P.A., and Barrett, Chapman & Ruta, P.A; and
Allow me to emphasize a critical point:
Quote:
The study’s so-called “straight” households featured heterosexual parents in committed, long-term relationships, whereas the so-called “gay” households failed to feature same-sex couples in comparable relationships.
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Old 13th November 2013, 11:03 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.
Decades of who's parenting experience? Plenty of people grow up with single parents and turn out just fine. And there are people who grow up in traditional households who make train wrecks of their lives. Children do best when they are raised in a loving, supportive home. Non-traditional families are perfectly capable of proving love and encouragement, and traditional families are no guarantee that children will receive such support.

You know well enough by now that children do best when they are raised in families of higher socio-economic status. We don't need decades of parenting experience to know that, we have hard scientific evidence. Yet you are only calling for the prohibition of marriage between same-sex couples, not poor couples. This is an appalling double standard and it exposes the truth behind your opposition to equal marriage rights for all adults.

Quote:
When children do best, all of society benefits.
Yes. But why is it that your concern only seems to extend as far as children of same-sex couples? Why are you willing to call for drastic steps, such as limiting the right to marry, only when it involves gay couples?

Quote:
Those who are pushing the gay agenda are free, of course, to continue doing so, including calling me a bigot. As for myself, however, I will have nothing more to say on the subject.
The "gay agenda" is very similar to the "black agenda" and the "women's agenda" that came before. Its goal is to end unfair legislation that relegates to second class citizenship a portion of the population with discriminatory laws that are only applied to those being marginalized. The fact that you are supporting such unequal legislation is, quite simply, bigotry. I'm sorry that you don't like that, but it doesn't make it any less true. (Just like your reluctance to admit to the evidence against the Book Of Abraham doesn't make Joseph Smith any less a liar.) You may as well leave this discussion, as I can't see you offering anything more than what you have already presented: misrepresentation and obfuscation by bigots, along with some actual scientific sources that you misinterpret as supporting your position because you didn't examine them in detail. You've presented your argument and it has been shown to be fallacious.
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Old 13th November 2013, 11:41 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
I wanted to post the article proper, but there's a $39 fee.
So you are not sure what the actual report says. this is an important point.

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Re. Ms. Kim: I know she has written extensively on same-sex marriage. It may not be fair--nor accurate--to claim that she "intentionally distorts the claims from reports."
I know she misrepresents the data, because I have read her work and I have read the sources she cites.
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Old 13th November 2013, 11:45 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.
It isn't good enough to simply say this. You must also cite first source research. You are unable to, and this is why fail.

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
When children do best, all of society benefits.
Then why not advocate for preventing poor people from having children?
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Old 13th November 2013, 12:45 PM   #275
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay.
You have yet to provide actual evidence to support this assertion. Debunked and misrepresented studies are not evidence.

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.
Please, elaborate on this aspect of your claim. Whose experience? How many families were involved? Where were the results published?
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Old 13th November 2013, 01:20 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation.

If you're referring to the story of Babel, the Lord God's reason for confounding the language is quite clearly told: aversion to brick cities, tall towers, and/or human aspiration in general.

Originally Posted by Genesis 11
Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

So, what's the official LDS policy on the building of cities, the use of bricks in construction, and the permissible height of towers guaranteed not to make the Lord God fearful that heaven might be invaded?

The Washington DC LDS Temple is 288 feet tall. The LDS Office Building in Salt Lake City is 420 feet. That's definitely getting up near the theoretical maximum height that could possibly have been built of brick in ancient times. But of course we now use steel for tall buildings and so can build them much taller than that. Is that not a cause for concern? What about aircraft and spacecraft, that go much higher? How seriously does the LDS take that Genesis passage anyhow?

What about language translation software? Are you not afraid that if we work around the problems of communications too effectively, God will try some new affliction to (literally) keep us down? What if next time He decides to just blind us all?

I wonder whether you've thought this through.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 13th November 2013, 02:34 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.
You STILL have not answered the question.
  • Children do best when they are not raised in poverty. So what?
  • The ability to marry has nothing to do with whether or not gays and lesbians will have children.
  • It's a finding of legal fact that you are wrong. The scientific consensus does not show what you think it shows. I've provided the links. The legal finding of fact was based on expert testimony.
Quote:
When children do best, all of society benefits.
True but denying gays and lesbians the right to marry the person they love will not A.) reduce the number of children raised by gays and lesbians. B.) Increase the number of children raised by a two parent family. C.) Solve real pernicious problems like poverty.

Quote:
Those who are pushing the gay agenda are free, of course, to continue doing so, including calling me a bigot. As for myself, however, I will have nothing more to say on the subject.
I wish you would just answer the questions posed to you. Why is it so hard to address them?
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Old 13th November 2013, 02:38 PM   #278
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Keep in mind, this is a non-trivial slice of the population we're talking about.

Study: Public polls underestimate same-sex attraction, especially among Christians
Quote:
A team of researchers at Ohio State University found that when respondents were assured of anonymity, their admission to same sex attraction and activity rose sharply. In a normal survey, an average of 17 percent of those surveyed (12 percent of men, 24 percent of women) said they have had a sexual experience with someone of their own sex. For the anonymous, or “veiled” survey, the number rose to 27 percent (17 percent of men and 43 percent of women), an increase of 58 percent.

In the standard survey, 11 percent or respondents said they did not consider themselves to be heterosexual. In the veiled result, the percentage leapt to 19 percent, a 65 percent increase.
From a parenting perspective, I would think an out gay man who is happy with who he is and who is married to the man he loves would make a much better father than a repressed, self-loathing closeted homosexual in a loveless opposite-sex marriage of religious necessity. Who would you rather have as a father, a pre-scandal Ted Haggard or Nathan Lane?

OK, bad example, because Haggard is, according to him, bisexual. The odds are good he's actually attracted to his wife. He has no reason to lie about this, as the Evangelical movement celebrates alleged "ex-gay" salvation narratives.
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Old 13th November 2013, 02:50 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I don't think the people using the argument are really thinking it through to that extent. There seems to be a fantasy that denying gay marriage will magically keep kids from being born to gay couples. While it would prevent adoption, the kids will still be born and will end up growing up in households where their parents aren't married. Denying gay marriage exacerbates the problem, it doesn't make it better.

If, however, we get to the point where being "disadvantaged" is enough reason to remove a child from the household, you start marching towards things like Australia's "Stolen Generation" or Canada's forced sterilization program. Those are not theoretical, but very real historical precedents. Mormons should be wary of letting this line of thinking continue, as being a religious minority in most the country, they'd fare no better in terms of keeping their kids than Muslims. The Dominion and Evangelical believers likely to move forward with a "Lost Generation" scenario see Mormons as delusional Pagans at best. Mormons wouldn't be in the first round to lose their kids or face forced sterilization, but having grown up among the people who would be leading the charge in an American Theocracy, I can tell you Mormons would be targeted eventually.
Thank you. It's special pleading to suggest that we should only consider the affects of allowing gays and lesbians to marry when it comes to the well-being of children. Never mind that when asked for evidence of harm at the Prop 8 trial none was provided. While there was plenty of evidence that being raised by two parents regardless of gender was what was most important.
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Old 13th November 2013, 04:45 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
The bottom line is that children do best when raised by a father and a mother, neither of whom is gay. Decades of parenting experience proves that to be true.

When children do best, all of society benefits.

Those who are pushing the gay agenda are free, of course, to continue doing so, including calling me a bigot. As for myself, however, I will have nothing more to say on the subject.
Well, I'm glad you're comfortable with what others might call you. If you think that standing for rationality and equality of rights and normalization of families in the actual world that actually exists at this very moment is "pushing the gay agenda" then we can all draw our own conclusions.

You're may well be right in a certain way that generally the children of happily married heterosexual parents do best, but we also cannot dismiss the unfortunate fact that this occurs in a world tainted by hatred and prejudice against anything else. If you're happy in that world, good for you. I, on the other hand, want a few things for everyone that we Vermonters enjoy today. I want the children of people who live otherwise than myself to have the legal protection of a family. I want people who love each other to be able to enjoy being married, because I think marriage is wonderful. And I want to change the hateful and disgusting world in which those two previous ideas can be dismissed as "pushing the gay agenda" as if that were reason enough to dismiss the lives and loves and families of the real people among whom we live.
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