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Old 13th November 2013, 07:57 PM   #281
deaman
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You know what, skyrider44? I'm going to take up your cause for you. This is my best argument against gay marriage:

1. The goal of all humans should be to be righteous in the eyes of God and united with him in death.
2. Only through the Mormon faith may people truly be righteous and all that stuff I said in #1.
3. It is the obligation of the righteous to bring others to God through the Mormon church.
4. It is the obligation of those with sin to live righteously and to be faithful to the teachings of the Mormon church.
5. Homosexuality is a sin which prevents individuals from union with God in this life or in death.
6. Thus, it is the duty of Mormons to convince people to renounce their homosexuality and practice the Mormon faith (and it is the duty of sinners to be convinced).
7. Anything that makes it easier or more acceptable to be homosexual makes it more difficult to convince homosexuals to do that stuff I said in #1 and #5.
8. Gay marriage makes it easier for people to be homosexual.
9. Thus, gay marriage should not be allowed.

This appears to be the only honest, logically consistent argument against gay marriage that I can construct. Those who are so inclined may attack my logic. Don't bother attacking the truth value of any of the premises as I obviously don't believe they are true.

However, if the truth value of the premises is assumed, it would appear to be the duty of every right-thinking individual to actively make life as difficult for homosexuals as possible.
This is so pathetically sad.
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Old 13th November 2013, 08:06 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by deaman View Post
This is so pathetically sad.

What do you mean by that?
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Old 14th November 2013, 03:32 AM   #283
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Catching up here after a particularly intense bout of RL, I see skyrider replied to a point of mine some days back

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Research on the effects of children living with same-sex parents is mixed. Some studies report it is a problem, while others claim it is not. Consequently, it isn't accurate to say that there is no problem.
Nor, of course, is it accurate to say there is a problem, given the presented evidence.

skyrider's post represents precisely the sort of twisted logic that led me to write

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
This sort of intellectual dishonesty shown by deliberate misusing sources is, IMO, the result of rationalising the need to accept Smith's frauds regarding the BoM and the BoA.
It's why accepting lies 'for the greater good' is so pernicious, in my view.
So, accepting the BoM and BA predisposes Latter-day Saints to accept certain research that shows children are harmed by being raised by same-sex parents.

Surely you aren't serious.

Other posters wrote
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
It certainly predisposes them to ignore facts in favour of ideology.
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I'm sure pakeha is being very serious. You've already demonstrated that you will ignore glaringly obvious evidence regarding the founder of your religion, why should we expect you to acknowledge scientific institutions that say that homosexuality is a normal aspect of human behavior?
Oh, yes, quite serious, indeed.
Intellectual dishonesty inveigles us into the most amazing rationalisations imaginable.
It's why I go back again and again to what to me is the crux of the Morman point of view on their own church and its teachings- they're basing any thoughts or conclusions on a cognitive dissonance, a dissonance formed by consciously or unconsciously repressing the truth about Smith's con games respecting his 'inspired translations'.
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Old 14th November 2013, 04:23 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If you're referring to the story of Babel, the Lord God's reason for confounding the language is quite clearly told: aversion to brick cities, tall towers, and/or human aspiration in general.

So, what's the official LDS policy on the building of cities, the use of bricks in construction, and the permissible height of towers guaranteed not to make the Lord God fearful that heaven might be invaded?

The Washington DC LDS Temple is 288 feet tall. The LDS Office Building in Salt Lake City is 420 feet. That's definitely getting up near the theoretical maximum height that could possibly have been built of brick in ancient times. But of course we now use steel for tall buildings and so can build them much taller than that. Is that not a cause for concern? What about aircraft and spacecraft, that go much higher? How seriously does the LDS take that Genesis passage anyhow?

What about language translation software? Are you not afraid that if we work around the problems of communications too effectively, God will try some new affliction to (literally) keep us down? What if next time He decides to just blind us all?

I wonder whether you've thought this through.

Respectfully,
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http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1-2?lang=eng
B of A 1:17 And this because they have turned their hearts away from me...

The intent and motive to build the Tower was an attempt to reach Heaven by their own labour, disregarding the Commandments of God... the obeying of which is the only way. The Lord was displeased, and confounded the language to segregate the varying degrees of righteousness amongst the people.

It was not the height which was significant, it was the intent of the hearts of the unrighteous who sought to reach Heaven without the blessing of their Heavenly Father.

Jared and his brother were righteous men who lived near the Tower and who loved and obeyed God. They and their people, who were called the Jaredites, retained the language and were led by the Lord to America. See Ether 1:35, 37 in the Book of Mormon. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/1?lang=eng

The unrighteous were scattered and segregated according to the degree of their wickedness.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/11?lang=eng
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Old 14th November 2013, 08:01 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Cat Tale View Post
It's something that, if you give me a couple months, I can look into in my spare time cause it's one of those things I'm now interested in. In just a quick 5 minute search I did find some things that looked interesting in the Deseret News and other online newspapers. I should say, historic newspapers, not recent. I'll get back to you on that later.
I'm looking forward to reading what you uncover.

Back to the topic of gay marriage, the majority of Americans support the legalization of gay marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...#Polls_in_2013

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3682884.html

Interracial marriage didn't have that high an approval rating until the 1990's.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/mos...marriages.aspx

During the civil rights movement, approval of interracial marriage was around 20%.
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Old 14th November 2013, 09:11 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1-2?lang=eng
B of A 1:17 And this because they have turned their hearts away from me...

The intent and motive to build the Tower was an attempt to reach Heaven by their own labour, disregarding the Commandments of God... the obeying of which is the only way. The Lord was displeased, and confounded the language to segregate the varying degrees of righteousness amongst the people.

It was not the height which was significant, it was the intent of the hearts of the unrighteous who sought to reach Heaven without the blessing of their Heavenly Father.

Jared and his brother were righteous men who lived near the Tower and who loved and obeyed God. They and their people, who were called the Jaredites, retained the language and were led by the Lord to America. See Ether 1:35, 37 in the Book of Mormon. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/1?lang=eng

The unrighteous were scattered and segregated according to the degree of their wickedness.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/11?lang=eng
Except that all of the evidence to date shows migration patterns. These patterns were established prior to DNA and supported by multiple lines of evidence. DNA has since confirmed them.
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Old 14th November 2013, 09:38 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Intellectual dishonesty inveigles us into the most amazing rationalisations imaginable.
It's why I go back again and again to what to me is the crux of the Morman point of view on their own church and its teachings- they're basing any thoughts or conclusions on a cognitive dissonance, a dissonance formed by consciously or unconsciously repressing the truth about Smith's con games respecting his 'inspired translations'.
Indeed. It isn't that acceptance of the Book Of Mormon and the Book Of Abraham predisposes LDS to accept certain research that shows children are harmed by being raised by same-sex parents. It predisposes (many of) them to accept certain research that pretends to show said harm.
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Old 14th November 2013, 09:40 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The unrighteous were scattered and segregated according to the degree of their wickedness.
And what was the degree of wickedness, relative to the others, of Anglo-Saxons?
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Old 14th November 2013, 10:37 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
They and their people, who were called the Jaredites, retained the language and were led by the Lord to America.
What language is that? Is it now lost?
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:01 AM   #290
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It's important to keep the issue of gay adoption in perspective. There is a very real shortage of adoptive and foster parents for children who are older than toddler age. It strikes me as short-sighted and foolish to deny children loving homes with gay couples based upon vague and debunked fears in a world where this happens:

Feel like cannot cope with your child anymore? Parents in the US found a very easy way of solving such problems. They sell or give for free their unwanted rascals to strangers through the Internet. The future of those children is unknown since the US government is typically unaware of such arrangements.

Which would be a better fate for a child? To be adopted by a gay or lesbian couple who had passed an adoption agency's screening process, or to be given away on Craigslist like an unwanted rabbit or dog?
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:54 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1-2?lang=eng
B of A 1:17 And this because they have turned their hearts away from me...

The intent and motive to build the Tower was an attempt to reach Heaven by their own labour, disregarding the Commandments of God... the obeying of which is the only way. The Lord was displeased, and confounded the language to segregate the varying degrees of righteousness amongst the people.

It was not the height which was significant, it was the intent of the hearts of the unrighteous who sought to reach Heaven without the blessing of their Heavenly Father.

Jared and his brother were righteous men who lived near the Tower and who loved and obeyed God. They and their people, who were called the Jaredites, retained the language and were led by the Lord to America. See Ether 1:35, 37 in the Book of Mormon. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/1?lang=eng

The unrighteous were scattered and segregated according to the degree of their wickedness.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/11?lang=eng
So those were the guys with the chariots pulled by the tapirs?
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:58 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It's important to keep the issue of gay adoption in perspective. There is a very real shortage of adoptive and foster parents for children who are older than toddler age. It strikes me as short-sighted and foolish to deny children loving homes with gay couples based upon vague and debunked fears in a world where this happens:

Feel like cannot cope with your child anymore? Parents in the US found a very easy way of solving such problems. They sell or give for free their unwanted rascals to strangers through the Internet. The future of those children is unknown since the US government is typically unaware of such arrangements.

Which would be a better fate for a child? To be adopted by a gay or lesbian couple who had passed an adoption agency's screening process, or to be given away on Craigslist like an unwanted rabbit or dog?

Excellent point especially since several studies indicate that gay couples tend to be far more willing to take in older, sicker, and more troubled children than straight couples are. In some states, half of all gay adoptive parents adopted children designated as special-needs. Gays also have much higher rates of adopting minority children than straight couples. The children that many gay couples adopt would otherwise languish for years in foster care limbo.
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Old 14th November 2013, 12:33 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1-2?lang=eng
B of A 1:17 And this because they have turned their hearts away from me...

The intent and motive to build the Tower was an attempt to reach Heaven by their own labour, disregarding the Commandments of God... the obeying of which is the only way. The Lord was displeased, and confounded the language to segregate the varying degrees of righteousness amongst the people.

It was not the height which was significant, it was the intent of the hearts of the unrighteous who sought to reach Heaven without the blessing of their Heavenly Father.

Jared and his brother were righteous men who lived near the Tower and who loved and obeyed God. They and their people, who were called the Jaredites, retained the language and were led by the Lord to America. See Ether 1:35, 37 in the Book of Mormon. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/1?lang=eng

The unrighteous were scattered and segregated according to the degree of their wickedness.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/11?lang=eng
I prefer real history.
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Old 14th November 2013, 12:45 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
What language is that? Is it now lost?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaredites

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jaredites

Details are sparse, but according to the Book of Mormon, they would have emigrated from Asia. Their written language was intelligible to the Nephite King Mosiah I a thousand years or so after their migration. Keep in mind, written Chinese is an example of a single written language used by multiple spoken languages. Developing a common written language would probably have been a priority for the scattered peoples. By creating a common written language for multiple spoken tongues, China pretty much stuck its tongue out at the Babel curse and threw it a rude gesture before moving on.

The Nephite's probably spoke a form of Aramaic.

If the Jaredites influenced the surrounding peoples or left behind a remnant speaking their native tongue, then the original language spoken by Adam and Eve would probably have been a precursor to one of the modern Asian language families. The written language would have to be a written trade language, like Chinese, for a Nephite king descended from Palestinian Jews to read it a thousand years later.

Amusingly, the Nephite and Jaredites narratives and the fact that their scribes shared a written language tells us that commerce had already started finding a way around the Babel curse before the Jaredites migrated to the Americas.

So, to answer your question, the written language of the Jaredites had to be ideographic and in use by the Babylonian empire for trade purposes around the time the Nephites left Palestine. The following is probably representative:
http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/classes...5/choi/bab.htm

The spoken language was, given the Eastern Asian origins of the Jaredites, of the Sino-Tibetan family. The King Mosiah I incident tells us the Oceanic languages are right out, as they would not have has even a ghost of a chance of enough Babylonian trade relations for the shared common written language to be in use in both locations. Indian language families are contenders to be the descendants of the Jaredite language, but China is a more likely contender due to it's superior position for the described Trans-Pacific migration. China hits the sweet spot of necessary geography and trade relations.
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Old 14th November 2013, 12:58 PM   #295
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There's been a lot of discussion here about what, if any, role the LDS church should play in enforcing Mormon morals upon non-Momrons. To further that discussion, I'd like to discuss the incident described at the following link:

http://imgur.com/gallery/zwCGHQs

Assuming the incident is accurately described, what we have is a group of Mormons treating a non-Mormon acquaintance poorly because of a tattoo and revealing attire. The image is of a letter written by one of the Mormons in question a few months after the incident.
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Old 14th November 2013, 01:19 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It's important to keep the issue of gay adoption in perspective. There is a very real shortage of adoptive and foster parents for children who are older than toddler age. It strikes me as short-sighted and foolish to deny children loving homes with gay couples based upon vague and debunked fears in a world where this happens:

Feel like cannot cope with your child anymore? Parents in the US found a very easy way of solving such problems. They sell or give for free their unwanted rascals to strangers through the Internet. The future of those children is unknown since the US government is typically unaware of such arrangements.

Which would be a better fate for a child? To be adopted by a gay or lesbian couple who had passed an adoption agency's screening process, or to be given away on Craigslist like an unwanted rabbit or dog?
Beating a well worn drum here, but I would also point out that adoption by gay persons and gay couples (which includes, of course, adoption of the children of a partner's previous unions) in some places at least long long predated single sex marriage and civil union. The long acceptance of gay adoption, and the existence of the resulting families, was one of the motivations for the Vermont Supreme Court's ruling that resulted in civil unions. Using the adoption angle to resist gay marriage is an argument for turning the clock back, not forward.
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Old 14th November 2013, 07:17 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
There's been a lot of discussion here about what, if any, role the LDS church should play in enforcing Mormon morals upon non-Momrons. To further that discussion, I'd like to discuss the incident described at the following link:

http://imgur.com/gallery/zwCGHQs

Assuming the incident is accurately described, what we have is a group of Mormons treating a non-Mormon acquaintance poorly because of a tattoo and revealing attire. The image is of a letter written by one of the Mormons in question a few months after the incident.
I do not see in the letter or the presentation an accusation that the other Mormons on the premises dealt badly with Zach. It looks as if the grandmother who hosted the party did so, mentioning that she hurt not only Zach but his friends. Exactly what transpired is not made clear, but it does not seem like a concentrated attack by many.

The letter cited looks like a pretty gracious apology. We cannot know whether it was on her own, at the urging of her grandson, or at the urging of Mormon colleagues, but whoever brought it about, it seems like a decent resolution.
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Old 15th November 2013, 07:19 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I do not see in the letter or the presentation an accusation that the other Mormons on the premises dealt badly with Zach. It looks as if the grandmother who hosted the party did so, mentioning that she hurt not only Zach but his friends. Exactly what transpired is not made clear, but it does not seem like a concentrated attack by many.

The letter cited looks like a pretty gracious apology. We cannot know whether it was on her own, at the urging of her grandson, or at the urging of Mormon colleagues, but whoever brought it about, it seems like a decent resolution.
I agree with Bruto, I don't see evidence of a group doing anything wrong, what I do see is a grandmother making an apology for behaving poorly. Unfortunately, there are people in all walks of life, religious or not, who put their foot in their mouth from time to time. In the incident related in this post he says "she" [the grandmother] treated him poorly, no mention of anyone else and how they behaved. We do not know what brought her to apologize, whether she actually fretted about it for several months, or she was enticed by her family, but as one of the comments below the letter states, at least "she had the guts to own up to her mistake, that shows something." So basically we have a grandmother who offended a non-member, and she apologized. Seems pretty straight forward and resolved, am I missing something?
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Old 15th November 2013, 07:54 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Cat Tale View Post
I agree with Bruto, I don't see evidence of a group doing anything wrong, what I do see is a grandmother making an apology for behaving poorly. Unfortunately, there are people in all walks of life, religious or not, who put their foot in their mouth from time to time. In the incident related in this post he says "she" [the grandmother] treated him poorly, no mention of anyone else and how they behaved. We do not know what brought her to apologize, whether she actually fretted about it for several months, or she was enticed by her family, but as one of the comments below the letter states, at least "she had the guts to own up to her mistake, that shows something." So basically we have a grandmother who offended a non-member, and she apologized. Seems pretty straight forward and resolved, am I missing something?
You're not missing anything. You got exactly what I was trying to convey by posting the link, someone apologizing for a mistake.

I think the letter is a good example of someone realizing they had overstepped their bounds when interacting with a non-Mormon. This woman clearly has affection for the person she treated badly but she let judgmental attitudes hold sway during the BBQ.

In a way, I see the exchange as symbolic of the LDS church's relationship towards marriage equality. Right now, we're at the BBQ. The LDS leadership is just starting to realize their behavior in relationship to Prop 8 was over the top and out of bounds. The party is still going on, and the non-Mormon is still being treated badly, but realization is starting to creep in.

Eventually, the LDS leadership is going to metaphorically write the apology letter. Since they still haven't quite reached that stage in race relations, it'll probably take them a bit longer than the median population.

While I'm tempted to compare the family members talking to the Grandmother to LDS members, I think I've strained the analogy far enough.
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Old 15th November 2013, 03:58 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I think I've strained the analogy far enough.
But a great analogy at that!
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Old 16th November 2013, 12:18 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You're not missing anything. You got exactly what I was trying to convey by posting the link, someone apologizing for a mistake.

I think the letter is a good example of someone realizing they had overstepped their bounds when interacting with a non-Mormon. This woman clearly has affection for the person she treated badly but she let judgmental attitudes hold sway during the BBQ.

In a way, I see the exchange as symbolic of the LDS church's relationship towards marriage equality. Right now, we're at the BBQ. The LDS leadership is just starting to realize their behavior in relationship to Prop 8 was over the top and out of bounds. The party is still going on, and the non-Mormon is still being treated badly, but realization is starting to creep in.

Eventually, the LDS leadership is going to metaphorically write the apology letter. Since they still haven't quite reached that stage in race relations, it'll probably take them a bit longer than the median population.

While I'm tempted to compare the family members talking to the Grandmother to LDS members, I think I've strained the analogy far enough.
I'm sorry, I was going to respond to this line of thinking but I have no idea what to do with it. It is a kindly thought (LDS leaders = grandma) but is empty of any kind of real insight or knowledge of what LDS leadership really thinks or might do.

I think that people being treated unfairly today deserve responses to their treatment today and not vague promises of a better future time. That seems like a mine that has been pretty well tapped isn't it?
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Old 16th November 2013, 08:21 PM   #302
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It has been a long BBQ.

Ensign magazine posted some LDS perspectives back in 1980 on the issue of the day, which was approval of a constitutional amendment called the ERA. This perceived great moral threat to the country that caused the church to align its resources toward its defeat was worded:
Quote:
The Equal Rights Amendment reads, in its entirety, as follows:

Section 1: Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2: The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3: This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.
The article itself offers a good perspective on LDS opposition to gay marriage. Opposition that has remained consistent for a long time. It is more than thought of as 'sinful', it represents an undermining of an entire philosophy about family life that goes back to 'pre existence'.

Back in 1980 they opined:
Quote:
9. What would be the impact of the ERA on homosexual marriages?

In hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Paul A. Freund of Harvard Law School testified: “Indeed if the law must be as undiscriminating concerning sex as it is toward race, it would follow that laws outlawing wedlock between members of the same sex would be as invalid as laws forbidding miscegenation [interracial marriages]” (Senate Report 92–689, p. 47).

Passage of the ERA would carry with it the risk of extending constitutional protection to immoral same-sex—lesbian and homosexual—marriages. The argument of a homosexual male, for example, would be: “If a woman can legally marry a man, then equal treatment demands that I be allowed to do the same.” Under the ERA, states could be forced to legally recognize and protect such marriages. A result would be that any children brought to such a marriage by either partner or adopted by the couple could legally be raised in a homosexual home. While it cannot be stated with certainty whether this or any other consequence will result from the vague language of the amendment, the possibility cannot be avoided.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/03/th...-a-moral-issue
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Old 17th November 2013, 03:05 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
You and others have repeatedly attacked my sources as lacking in credibility and of being anti-gay marriage propaganda "rags."

Jeez, why do think that is?

Because that is all they are. You have repeatedly failed to cite any legitimately objective source. You are being disingenuous if you claim you have.
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Old 18th November 2013, 09:58 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Cat Tale View Post
But a great analogy at that!
Thank you.

For everyone in the thread:

Since this is a thread about the LDS church, I have a few questions for a novel I'm working on.

Assume the following situation:

An LDS woman marries a man who is Methodist. Despite both of them having met in New York City, he moves his entire livelihood to Utah so she can live near her family.

The Woman's mother, we'll call her Edith, is a VERY active LDS member who contributes a rather large tithe from her late husband's estate. She is prone to the more conservative aspects of the church. While still an LDS member, she might be more comfortable in one of the fundamentalist denominations.

Edith beings spreading the claim that her sin-in-law is an alcoholic. There is no real evidence he is an alcoholic aside from the observed casual drinking Edith offers as "proof." He offers to go cold turkey for Lent to prove he's not an alcoholic. He does so, and Edith insists the fact that he's not dying from delirium tremens is proof he's still drinking on the sly.

How would the LDS leadership react to Edith?

Would they be tempted to advise she moderate her behavior and tone down or stop the accusations?

Would they be likely to support her and side with her, even as evidence mounts that she's either lying or delusional?

How extreme must her behavior get before the local LDS leaders being to distance themselves from her?

How would the LDS members in the community likely react to the situation?

How would they be EXPECTED to react?

At what point would the community distance itself from Edith?
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Old 18th November 2013, 02:09 PM   #305
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Smile

Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
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Old 19th November 2013, 02:12 PM   #306
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It's a miracle!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg typhoon-haiyan-philippines-damage-4-111213.jpg (152.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 628x471.jpg (98.7 KB, 4 views)
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Old 19th November 2013, 02:13 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
She should have prayed for her god not to have murdered those 3600 people to begin with. Faith didn't help much there.
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Old 19th November 2013, 02:23 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
Tell me, were they incapable of prayer to save the lives of the thousands of others that died, and drowned? Or does your god only save those who believe?

I would find it more 'miraculous' if the LDS missionaries had prayed, and the Typhoon simply disappeared before hitting the islands. Otherwise, you have some nice Anecdotal evidence, which means nothing.
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Old 19th November 2013, 02:24 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
Of course, the people who drowned while praying won't get articles written about them.

Confirmation Bias is a powerful delusion.
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Old 19th November 2013, 03:11 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.
It seems that all opposition to your position is biased. Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...
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Old 19th November 2013, 04:17 PM   #311
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Old 19th November 2013, 04:58 PM   #312
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A) Water always stops rising at some point.
B) Did they know the storm was coming and opt not to do something stupid?
Color me unimpressed.
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Old 19th November 2013, 04:59 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
If God chose to save certain people then God chose not to save all those who died. So you're saying that God just deliberately murdered thousands of people, many of whom would have had just as much faith, been just as deserving and prayed just as sincerely as this woman.
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Old 19th November 2013, 05:43 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=107...ors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/p...-prepared.html
God kills people if they aren't Mormon?
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Old 19th November 2013, 07:06 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
It seems that all opposition to your position is biased. Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...
Surprise!

it's a bad link!

Any chance of posting a link to the actual article, or do I have to go hunting it myself?
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Old 19th November 2013, 07:40 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It's a miracle!
Wow, that miracle sucks. Weak sauce there God, weak sauce. Do better next time.

I bet most of the other religious people prayed the water would stop rising and eventually it did.
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Old 19th November 2013, 08:14 PM   #317
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...Interesting that, in a thread about "LDS" doctrine, a Catholic Author's opinion piece is offered as "evidence" that marriage equality will be bad for "the children".

The actual article can be found here:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/..._sex_parenting

Apparently,according to the author, babies can cause lesbians to stop loving each other. OTH, according to the author, same-gender couples who solve their child-real;ted issues are made stronger thereby.
Quote:
When spouses "fall in love" with their children, it doesn't diminish their love for the other spouse, but enriches it. Same-sex couples may seek children hoping they will provide this same effect, but will more often find them an obstacle to and a competitor for affection. And when persons with SSA do succeed in solving their deep problems and meeting their unmet needs, it tends to diminish the attractions that form the very basis of their relationship, and likewise undoes it.
Surprisingly, no support is offered for the author's opinion.

Apparently, according to the author, boys raised by lesbians cannot develop traditionally sterotypical male identities, because lesbians hate and distrust masculinity, and women more thoroughly discourage gender-typing play. Which, according to the author, is a bad thing, because constructionist ideology.

The article is worth a read, if only as a textbook example of circular reading and special pleading--because "marriage" (in the Catholic millieu) is the procreative union of one stereotypical man and one stereotypical woman, dutifully carrying out their western-world stereotypical rôles, anything different is, by definition "bad"; and it is "bad" because it is, in fact, different.

Her opinion, presented as a conclusion:

Quote:
But no matter how many people praise "family diversity," children being raised by parents with SSA will always know that it's not the same, and someday they will resent how their needs have been sacrificed for the sake of a social experiment. In a sad irony, the more that cultural elites insist that there is nothing wrong with their situation, the more these children will feel guilty about resenting it, and this guilt will lead them to conclude that there must be something wrong with them.
For fun there is even more of the same at
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/..._grand_bargain

There is a fun discussion to be had about the value and usefulness of, and the societal problems caused by, stereotypical gender rôles, but this may not be the thread for it. My parents, bless their hearts, raised me to look upon work as, not "man's" work, or "woman's" work, but "my" work. I was expected to cook and keep a house clean with the same skill and dedication as I was expected to fell timber and repair the family cars. I was expected to sew, and darn, and do laundry, with the same joy and competence as I was expected to pour concrete, lay tile, and hoe. How much better off would I be if I were inculcated into a traditionally stereotypical gender rôle? As it is, my partner gets to call me the "domestic goddess" of our arrangement.

[/OT]
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Last edited by LashL; 19th November 2013 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag.
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Old 19th November 2013, 08:15 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
It seems that all opposition to your position is biased.
It only appears that way to you because you do not refer to the primary scientific sources, which I am using. I welcome an honest discussion of the data, you may start by referring back to my crituque of the regenerus paper. Would you care to explain why they use simple t tests on such numerous data sets? Why didn't they use a bonferoni correction?
Why do they not compare married gay parents to married straight parents?
How do they control for divorce, For income?
What does it mean that there are different results for lesbians vs. gay men? Do this imply there is a difference there or does it suggest the difference is statistical anomolies.

Beyond all this none of this matters.
We know you will not deny poor parents from marrying. Why deny gays?

Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post

Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...
Once again, you link to a reference of a book that supposedly reviews primary research. This is not equivilent to actually reading the studies. I have already shown several times before how your sources distort and lie about the science, why would you think another hearsay article to be any different?

For what reason do you avoid reading the original research?
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Old 19th November 2013, 08:17 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
If God chose to save certain people then God chose not to save all those who died. So you're saying that God just deliberately murdered thousands of people, many of whom would have had just as much faith, been just as deserving and prayed just as sincerely as this woman.
If 'god' could have prevented a single death, and it chose to do not so, it is unspeakably evil.
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Old 19th November 2013, 08:19 PM   #320
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Back on topic:

Good thing these families weren't gay--all sorts of disgusting and abhorrent immorality might have ensued.

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...ygamous_family
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