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Old 8th March 2017, 12:47 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
330
Jabba, I will assume that your answer is, "I agree that immortality cannot be proven, shown to be likely, or even shown to be possible. I further agree that my personal faith does not constitute a logical argument of any sort. Also, I am a 'cooking magazine' or internet poster."
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Old 8th March 2017, 01:01 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
330

331Dave,

- So, I will assume that your answer is, "Yes. There is a 'thing,' or process, that is exhibited in me that would not be exhibited in a perfect copy of me." That will be my first premise in arguing for an infinity of potential selves. I'll call this process a "particular self-awareness."
STOP DOING THAT.
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Old 8th March 2017, 02:51 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
False on two counts. Read the thread.

1. I've never said Jabba given H is impossible. I've stated the obvious, that the prior odds against Jabba given H were giganogargantuan. You've even conceded this yourself, in what was apparently a previous incarnation.

2. I've assumed nothing. I have numerous posts supporting #3. I do not need or intend to write a book about it every time I point it out.
I have read it, and your protestations do not change my interpretation. Bear in mind that I am not trying to be combative here; I find your posts interesting and frequently informative. But in this instance you seem to be equivocating the gigano odds with impossible but backing off when called on it.
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Old 9th March 2017, 06:14 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
A perfect copy of me would exhibit a perfect copy of that process.
Dave,
- But in an earlier dialog,
232
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
...
In scientific models for consciousness, it is exactly as traceable as the cause and effect that led to a particular brain existing, because they are the same thing. My particular brain can never exist again. If you somehow made an exact copy of my brain, It would exhibit an exact copy of my consciousness.
236
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, it wouldn't exhibit your particular self-awareness. "You" would not be reincarnated.
239
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
For exactly the same reason it wouldn't be my particular brain. It would be a copy...
- IOW,
- There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
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Old 9th March 2017, 06:47 AM   #365
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As has been pointed out (and ignored) an infinite number of times in this infinite thread: there would, in your impossible duplication scenario, be TWO Jabbas. Count them. Both would think they are Jabba, as they've had all the same experiences up to the point of duplication. After which they would diverge.

Godless Dave, I'm sure will be along to correct you as well. And you will, once again, misrepresent what he says. It's almost like we've seen this movie before.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:14 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- But in an earlier dialog,
232

236

239- IOW,
- There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
It's "different" in the way your second can of soup is different from your first can of soup. They're identical but they're not the same can of soup.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:15 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
As has been pointed out (and ignored) an infinite number of times in this infinite thread: there would, in your impossible duplication scenario, be TWO Jabbas. Count them. Both would think they are Jabba, as they've had all the same experiences up to the point of duplication. After which they would diverge.

Godless Dave, I'm sure will be along to correct you as well. And you will, once again, misrepresent what he says. It's almost like we've seen this movie before.
On the assumption that there ever will be getting Jabba to recognize his errors, this isn't the way. The crux now is his continued conflation of thing and process as demonstrated in the post you quoted and as repeated every time he writes a variation of "a thing, or process."

That difference and continued conflation are what need to be hammered on. The recent near agreement to stick with "how many going 60 miles per hour are there" was the right tack.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:26 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
On the assumption that there ever will be getting Jabba to recognize his errors, this isn't the way. The crux now is his continued conflation of thing and process as demonstrated in the post you quoted and as repeated every time he writes a variation of "a thing, or process."

That difference and continued conflation are what need to be hammered on. The recent near agreement to stick with "how many going 60 miles per hour are there" was the right tack.
Was that question ever addressed?
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:29 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Was that question ever addressed?
Of course. I counted all of the goings-of-60-miles-per-hour and placed that same number of jelly beans in a large glass jar. Guess the amount and win a prize.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:29 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Of course. I counted all of the goings-of-60-miles-per-hour and placed that same number of jelly beans in a large glass jar. Guess the amount and win a prize.
ummm..."all of them"?
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:30 AM   #371
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No, wait!

FOUR.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:33 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
ummm..."all of them"?
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
No, wait!

FOUR.
Don't be silly. There can't be four alls of them.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:36 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But in an earlier dialog,...
You've been told flat-out by the person you're attempting to coerce into agreement that he doesn't agree with you. It doesn't get any more authoritative than that. You're wrong -- deal with it.

Quote:
IOW,
No, not "in other words." In Dave's words. Stop rewriting people's posts to make it seem like they agree with you.

Quote:
There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
No.

You're trying to conflate "separate" with "different." Dave and others have told you several times that under the scientific hypothesis the copies would be indistinguishable. You're simply playing your typical word games to try to insinuate otherwise.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:38 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Don't be silly. There can't be four alls of them.
IOW, you agree with me that I am right, right?

Where's my prize?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:06 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
IOW, you agree with me that I am right, right?

Where's my prize?
For a broad definition of agree and a broader definition of right. In my own way, I am making immortality great again.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:23 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
On the assumption that there ever will be getting Jabba to recognize his errors, this isn't the way. The crux now is his continued conflation of thing and process as demonstrated in the post you quoted and as repeated every time he writes a variation of "a thing, or process."

That difference and continued conflation are what need to be hammered on. The recent near agreement to stick with "how many going 60 miles per hour are there" was the right tack.
There's that. OTOH, I wouldn't make the assumption that Jabba will ever recognize his errors at this point. Especially as he has ignored every attempt at differentiating "thing" and "process", and likely always will.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:25 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
For a broad definition of agree and a broader definition of right. In my own way, I am making immortality great again.
My prize? My yuge prize?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:45 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My prize? My yuge prize?
This bit of infinite wisdom, Bayes-friendly.
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Old 9th March 2017, 09:03 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- But in an earlier dialog,
232

236

239- IOW,
- There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
How many 'going sixty' are there Jabba
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:42 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It's "different" in the way your second can of soup is different from your first can of soup. They're identical but they're not the same can of soup.

And now I want soup. Well ... "soup" or Amy Adams.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:52 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
Jabba is this a game to you? Are you just intentionally ignoring people until finally one of them snaps and tells you off so you can walk away the moral victor?
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Old 9th March 2017, 11:07 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jabba is this a game to you? Are you just intentionally ignoring people until finally one of them snaps and tells you off so you can walk away the moral victor?
Yes.

In his prior threads he has made exactly that argument. He has interpreted the flounces of frustrated critics as victories for him. In his interpretation he has expertly confounded his critics and they don't wish to debate him anymore, hence he must be right.

This is why I keep asking Jabba why he thinks any serious critic should engage him. He addresses only those people who defer to him, and answers only those posts that seem to agree with him. He rudely ignores anyone he thinks is "unfriendly" or writes posts that are too long or too complicated for him to read. When he's not berating his critics for being too "analytical" to understand the inherent beauty and truth of his arguments, he's trying various linguistic swindles to trick people into seeming to agree with him.

No serious critic should be obliged to wallow in that. If one leaves, Jabba considers it's only because the critic was defeated. If one never engages, Jabba considers it's because he knows he will lose. It's the same hamster wheel that so many fringe arguments fall into. Jabba simply does not put on the table the hypothesis that he may be wrong.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:13 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, I will assume that your answer is, "Yes. There is a 'thing,' or process, that is exhibited in me that would not be exhibited in a perfect copy of me." That will be my first premise in arguing for an infinity of potential selves. I'll call this process a "particular self-awareness."
Whatever Dave might say, this is false. A perfect copy would exhibit an identical process.

Quote:
- I will also use this premise to try to explain the difference between you (or me) and Mt Rainier -- the basic idea being that your particular self-awareness is not at all cause and effect traceable and is therefore infinitely unlikely according to Bayesian statistics. Whereas, Mt Rainier is quite traceable.
False. The self-awareness is cause and effect traceable.

Quote:
- In my next post -- with a little bit of luck -- I'll try again to explain why the combining of one of Dad's sperm cells with one of Cleopatra's ova (and numerous other current impossibilities) does represent a potential self.
It will need more than a little bit of luck. An impossible combination is not a potential combination: If you don't play the lottery, you are not a potential winner.

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Old 9th March 2017, 01:15 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- But in an earlier dialog,
232

236

239- IOW,
- There is something different about this perfect copy. A different kind of 'thing' -- but different, nevertheless.
No. There is nothing different about a perfect copy. But it is not the same copy.

Hans
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:18 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Whatever Dave might say, this is false. A perfect copy would exhibit an identical process.
In fact, that's what I said.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:49 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No. There is nothing different about a perfect copy. But it is not the same copy.

Hans
Indeed, Jabba is equivocating between "different" (separate) and "different" (non-identical). His critics know very clearly which one they intend when they talk about an identical process being exhibited by an identical copy. But because Jabba is also conflating "process" and "thing" he doesn't grasp that "separate" has no meaning for processes.
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Old 9th March 2017, 03:46 PM   #387
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It's a little bit like an obsessed stalker. The woman says to his face, no, I hate you, I will never ever want anything to do with you ever. Then the stalker tells himself, well that one time 6 months ago, she took 2 extra seconds to hang up the phone, that must mean she loves me.
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Old 9th March 2017, 03:49 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, Jabba is equivocating between "different" (separate) and "different" (non-identical). His critics know very clearly which one they intend when they talk about an identical process being exhibited by an identical copy. But because Jabba is also conflating "process" and "thing" he doesn't grasp that "separate" has no meaning for processes.
Oh, he understands very well. He just chooses to ignore it to keep his boat floating. There is no limit to the dishonesty.

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Old 9th March 2017, 03:50 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
In fact, that's what I said.
That's what I read you saying, also. But ... well ...

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Old 9th March 2017, 04:51 PM   #390
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Is a car a "thing" or an "emergent property"? When you get down to it, the only "things" are elementary particles. A car is then an emergent property of a set of things (elementary particles) with specific relations between them (ie relative position, energy, etc).
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Old 10th March 2017, 01:12 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Is a car a "thing" or an "emergent property"? When you get down to it, the only "things" are elementary particles. A car is then an emergent property of a set of things (elementary particles) with specific relations between them (ie relative position, energy, etc).
No, no, no we are not going down this road again.

This is another "Gotcha" that gets dropped into esoteric discussions; that a "thing" isn't a "thing" if it can be separated into smaller discreet "things" and that science is somehow admitting something if it discusses "things" which are collective.

Yes "Joe Bentley" both the organic entity and the ongoing conscious process can be separated into smaller unique conceptual ideas, which in turn can broken down into smaller conceptual ideas for many, many layers.

But that doesn't mean "Joe Bentley" isn't a thing we can talk about. A collective thing is still a thing. But some reason Woo Slingers and Woo Apologist just latch onto this idea as if it proves or means something. At no point in the rule or spirit of scientific thinking does looking at a collective thing or collective process become invalid or unreasonable.

And yet again for the umpteenth time this is all semantics. Our language developed to discuss things on a practical, real world, day to day level. "Joe Bentley" is a concept because the ongoing process of consciousness inhabiting this organic entity is just a useful concept to apply a label to in everyday life. The mitochondria in my cells don't give a toss about "Joe Bentley" and neither does the ongoing heat death of the universe but my mortgage company does. It matters to me on the level I operate and I am 100% perfectly okay with that.

Me acknowledging that the concept of "me" is just a handy shorthand for the level of the universe I operate on most of the time isn't some admission of anything sinister or backhanded. It just is.

You don't have to embrace Woo to talk about things other then subatomic particles and energy transfer.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:26 AM   #392
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232
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
...
In scientific models for consciousness, it is exactly as traceable as the cause and effect that led to a particular brain existing, because they are the same thing. My particular brain can never exist again. If you somehow made an exact copy of my brain, It would exhibit an exact copy of my consciousness.
236
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, it wouldn't exhibit your particular self-awareness. "You" would not be reincarnated.
239
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
For exactly the same reason it wouldn't be my particular brain. It would be a copy.
If two separate brains could produce the same self-awareness that would mean the scientific explanation for self-awareness is wrong.
Dave,
- In the above, you seem to be agreeing with me that a perfect copy of your brain would not exhibit your "particular self-awareness." Am I misunderstanding?
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:35 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
232In the above, you seem to be agreeing with me that a perfect copy of your brain would not exhibit your "particular self-awareness." Am I misunderstanding?
No you are not misunderstanding. You are purposely, intentionally, dishonestly, and insultingly misconstruing.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:36 AM   #394
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
232

236

239Dave,
- In the above, you seem to be agreeing with me that a perfect copy of your brain would not exhibit your "particular self-awareness." Am I misunderstanding?
Would a perfect copy of my brain be my brain?

No, it wouldn't.

And for exactly the same reason, a copy of my self-awareness would not be my self-awareness. Because two is more than one.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:43 AM   #395
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
In the above, you seem to be agreeing with me that a perfect copy of your brain would not exhibit your "particular self-awareness." Am I misunderstanding?
Yes. In the scientific model there is no such thing as a "particular self-awareness." Self-awareness is a property, not a thing or set of things. A property is not discretely quantizable, or discrete at all.

As I told you before and must tell you again (and again and again and again), your misunderstanding is really that you are trying to foist onto the scientific model a notion that is an entirely different kind of concept from what the model actually holds. Your misunderstanding is at a very, very fundamental level.

But it appears you're not ready to discuss that level of error. You're still stuck on trying to trick Dave into seeming to agree with you, or pretend he already has.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:48 AM   #396
Jabba
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Would a perfect copy of my brain be my brain?
Dave,
- No.
- But mostly, I'm trying to see if I can use "particular self-awareness" for referring to what's missing in the copy. Can I?
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:52 AM   #397
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- No.
- But mostly, I'm trying to see if I can use "particular self-awareness" for referring to what's missing in the copy. Can I?
No, because it's no more "missing" than any other part of the original. You could just as accurately say the original brain is missing, because a copy is separate from the original. It would be misleading to single out one part of the copy and say "This is different from the original" when everything about the copy is separate from the original.
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Old 10th March 2017, 10:12 AM   #398
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Oh for the love of...

Attempt 456th to explain this in a way you'll understand.

A person is two things, both a physical biological entity and an ongoing neurological process that is dependent on the biological entity. The "mind" is a process that the "brain" creates.

The "mind" process is continually and constantly changing to account for outside influences and stimulus. Your mind is not the same as it was 5 minutes ago, to say nothing of 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months or 5 years. It's a process. This has been explained to you more times then is necessary.

If you could somehow split this process into two identical processes they would be different but identical process until outside stimuli changed them.

So if some magical duplication ray hit you and split you into two identical "Jabbas" each Jabba would be no more or less the "real" Jabba then the other since there is no "One True" Jabba but each Jabba would immediately start differing as they experienced new stimuli.

So the "Is it the same" pleading is meaningless, a semantic distinction without difference.
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Old 10th March 2017, 10:21 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- No.
- But mostly, I'm trying to see if I can use "particular self-awareness" for referring to what's missing in the copy. Can I?
Nothing is missing from the copy. The brain is there. The process is there. It's all there. Nothing is missing.

"Something is missing" is the proposition you are trying to prove. You can't prove it by assuming it's true. Four years ago, I would have thought your argument was ignorant. Now I just assume it's dishonest.
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Old 10th March 2017, 10:25 AM   #400
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But mostly, I'm trying to see if I can use "particular self-awareness" for referring to what's missing in the copy. Can I?
No. Under the scientific model there's nothing missing in the copy. If the brain is copied exactly, then all the properties of the copy will manifest exactly in the copy, subject of course to subsequent dispersion since part of the process that creates the sense of self is the response to ongoing stimulus. This ongoing response property seems to stick in your craw, and you don't seem to want to answer any questions about it. Perhaps that's because it tends to undermine your notion of the sense of self-awareness as a "thing" that can have an existence -- however abstract -- apart from the organism that exhibits it.

But in any case you're still conflating "different" (separate) with "different" (non-identical). Until you clear that up and start using more precise terminology you're going to continue "misunderstanding." As this problematic equivocation has now been explained to you at least twice, is there an ETA for when you'll start paying attention to it?
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