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Tags anarchism , bomb incidents , Conspiracy Cells of Fire , terrorism incidents

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Old 27th March 2017, 11:34 AM   #41
Polaris
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
More like Hamas firing a mortar shell into Netanyahu's office expecting it will hit Netanyahu but actually hitting his secretary instead.
The bomb still has to go through the postal service, and can go off at any time along its route (while it's only a danger to the bomb-maker being the only acceptable time).
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Old 27th March 2017, 11:31 PM   #42
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Hey, caveman1917. I just figured we were due for some scrapping; it's been a while.
OK then.

Quote:
why not finally tell me what - in outline form - it is you advocate? Or take on my accusation, which does have a weak point or two, that the systems you advocate are unfair to compare to "real life" because they posit only their benefits.
Step 1: articulate and explain the contradiction in that quote. As a hint:

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
True. You don't even posit the virtues of your hypothetical system.
What hypothetical system?
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Last edited by caveman1917; 28th March 2017 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 27th March 2017, 11:42 PM   #43
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I’m don’t know what you’re referring to here. In what way was I “educated”?
You're right, you weren't. You probably simply can't be.

Quote:
Do you disagree that non-violence is preferable to violence?
Define "violence".

Quote:
Again the knee-jerk tu quoque argument.


Quote:
Interesting? How about just wrong?


Quote:
If you don’t find it “interesting”, then why are you participating in this thread?
A combination of plain boredom and ill-fated attempts to get you to produce something interesting.

Quote:
Also, were you aware that the book you linked to says the IMF has changed it stance on Austerity vs Stimulus based on research?
I wouldn't exactly call it "based on research" - but yes.

Quote:
Which, if true, would suggest that these anarchists are both ineffective and wrong.
How so?

Quote:
Which shows you don’t understand “whataboutism”.
Oh I understand it just fine, it's not even a real fallacy. At least a tu quoque is a real fallacy. Not, of course, that my statements constitute a tu quoque, but at least that one's an actual proper fallacy. My statements would be a tu quoque if they were like "you're a hypocrite on a boring ideological crusade therefor your claim is false" but as you can see it stops at "you're a hypocrite on a boring ideological crusade". It's a set of contextually relevant statements which does not, of itself, constitute an argument with as conclusion the negation of your claim, thereby clearly not a fallacious one, let alone an instance of a tu quoque. You just don't like it being pointed out and are grasping at straws - the same two straws as always (how interesting), one of which isn't even a real straw in the first place. </yet another pointless attempt at educating you>

Quote:
Whataboutism is a tu quoque argument. Like above where you responded to criticism of anarchist violence by saying the Italian police also used violence in arresting them. Someone else using violence (if you think the police arresting criminals is violence) doesn’t make your violence okay.
My violence? What would that be exactly?

Quote:
It’s not at all the same as ”What about this evidence that proves you wrong?”
It kind of is. Ex contradictione quodlibet, which proves everything wrong.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 28th March 2017 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 28th March 2017, 02:06 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
OK then.

Step 1: articulate and explain the contradiction in that quote. As a hint:

What hypothetical system?
So, status quo? No advocacy of change based on some preferred model? Not that all models are bad, of course. Or, what changes to current political and economic systems would you suggest?

I already agreed that most institutions fall short of stated mission. I also think all humans do, too. So I'd like to hear what system might be proposed that best deals with corruption/hypocrisy and small-minded individuals serving self-interest to the detriment of society. Could it be one that best allows such to be exposed, meaning that the best situation would be one in which we are surrounded by palpable hypocrisy and corruption?

Just as a way of starting a conversation.
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post

What hypothetical system?
Exactly. You're all about struggling against, but have nothing to say about what you're for.
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Old 30th March 2017, 02:04 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So, status quo? No advocacy of change based on some preferred model?
Neither of these follow.

Quote:
Not that all models are bad, of course. Or, what changes to current political and economic systems would you suggest?
Abolishing both?

Quote:
I already agreed that most institutions fall short of stated mission.
What made you think the stated mission had anything to do with actual activity in the first place?

Quote:
So I'd like to hear what system might be proposed that best deals with corruption/hypocrisy and small-minded individuals serving self-interest to the detriment of society.
Don't we all...

Quote:
Could it be one that best allows such to be exposed, meaning that the best situation would be one in which we are surrounded by palpable hypocrisy and corruption?
Could, on the other hand, the best one be the exact negation of that? Seems a priori equally likely to me.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 30th March 2017, 02:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly. You're all about struggling against, but have nothing to say about what you're for.
Apparently neither have you, other than appeals to tradition for your pet system.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly. You're all about struggling against, but have nothing to say about what you're for.
I think Caveman makes that clear with one that Bakunin quote in his sigestruction itself is a creative act.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Apparently neither have you, other than appeals to tradition for your pet system.
My pet system is what?


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think Caveman makes that clear with one that Bakunin quote in his sigestruction itself is a creative act.
I don't get the fascination with 19th century philosophers whose ideas have never created a stable working society, much less a happy one. One might as well study phrenology or alchemy.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:29 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
My pet system is what?
This:
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I choose to stick with the "belief system" that is commonly accepted in our society
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
This:
Recognizing the systems that exist make them my "pet system"?

That makes no sense.

I'm sure over time, assuming the survival of the human species, we will have many different systems, just like we have in the past. Hopefully, as time goes on, these systems will become better, more perfected, granting greater comfort, rights and opportunities to everyone.

Wanting to destroy a system without having a plan on what you're going to replace it with, how you're going to replace it, and without getting the consent of the people who would be affected by the changes is, in my opinion, colossally stupid and selfish.

In keeping an open mind, I would very much like to have you (or someone else) explain what they see in anarchism that makes it seem good to them and not stupid and selfish as it seems to me. Towards this end I often try to engage you (and others) in dialog, often asking questions to better understand your view. Like many other anarchists, you have been extraordinarily reluctant to participate in any way that shows your ideals in a positive way.

The very idea that not liking your ideas means I'm attached to the status quo is unfounded, but typical of the fallacious reasoning common among anarchists. So common that I sometimes wonder if anarchists are fallacious on purpose, if they've been trained to think fallaciously, or even if they're deliberately trying not to be understood.

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Old 1st April 2017, 12:28 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Recognizing the systems that exist make them my "pet system"?
You choosing a specific system to stick with constitutes you having a pet system. Then, being the one with the positive claim over the set of possible systems, feel free to argue for it at some point.
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Old 1st April 2017, 09:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You choosing a specific system to stick with constitutes you having a pet system.
What exactly was this choice and when did I make it?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Then, being the one with the positive claim over the set of possible systems, feel free to argue for it at some point.
What is the positive claim?
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Old 1st April 2017, 06:06 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What exactly was this choice and when did I make it?



What is the positive claim?
while (latest_mycroft_post.semantic_equals(#53))
{
GOTO #50
}
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Old 1st April 2017, 07:03 PM   #55
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What is an anarchist? Always wondered that.

I f you asked me, what was a Fascist, then I could point you at Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism" which pretty-well explains types of governments we have seen from the Ancient Roman Empire to Iraq's Saddam Hussein.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma.../mussolini.htm

But Anarchy? Just haven't seen a great definition.
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Old 1st April 2017, 09:50 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
But Anarchy? Just haven't seen a great definition.
How come? Seems some anarchists even wrote a definition of anarchy on that limo which got burned at the time of Trump's inauguration. Liberals have been whining about that one more than enough, including on this forum, how have you missed it?
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 1st April 2017, 10:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
How come? Seems some anarchists even wrote a definition of anarchy on that limo which got burned at the time of Trump's inauguration. Liberals have been whining about that one more than enough, including on this forum, how have you missed it?
This is nonsense.

If you want to discuss the topic, then fine,

Otherwise....spare us all.

Really...I'd like to know the definition of an Anarchist as well as Mussolini defines a fascist.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma.../mussolini.htm

I think that is fair.

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Old 1st April 2017, 10:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
This is nonsense.
What is nonsense? That they wrote a definition of anarchy on the limo (they have: anarchy is order, in graffiti on the limo) or that liberals have been whining about the limo (they have: check the thread on it)?
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Old 1st April 2017, 10:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Really...I'd like to know the definition of an Anarchist as well as Mussolini defines a fascist.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma.../mussolini.htm

I think that is fair.
I don't think you'll find that.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 08:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Recognizing the systems that exist make them my "pet system"?

That makes no sense.

I'm sure over time, assuming the survival of the human species, we will have many different systems, just like we have in the past. Hopefully, as time goes on, these systems will become better, more perfected, granting greater comfort, rights and opportunities to everyone.

Wanting to destroy a system without having a plan on what you're going to replace it with, how you're going to replace it, and without getting the consent of the people who would be affected by the changes is, in my opinion, colossally stupid and selfish.

In keeping an open mind, I would very much like to have you (or someone else) explain what they see in anarchism that makes it seem good to them and not stupid and selfish as it seems to me.
Towards this end I often try to engage you (and others) in dialog, often asking questions to better understand your view. Like many other anarchists, you have been extraordinarily reluctant to participate in any way that shows your ideals in a positive way.

The very idea that not liking your ideas means I'm attached to the status quo is unfounded, but typical of the fallacious reasoning common among anarchists. So common that I sometimes wonder if anarchists are fallacious on purpose, if they've been trained to think fallaciously, or even if they're deliberately trying not to be understood.

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Very reasonable points and questions. 'Anarchy/anarchist' are pretty wide umbrella terms, which encompass anachro-capitalist to anachro-communist to anachro-'all y'all'. If we take it as fundamentally meaning 'against Rulers', maybe it is easier to pin down. I see anarchy as a means rather than an end, a means of political expression against a system that is beyond repairing from within or discussing change with. Kind of like suggesting to Stalin to relinquish some power for the common good? I think there is no intent to destroy a given system, but to deliver the opening volley and normalize extreme dissent, in the sense of letting people know that others have reached the breaking point, too.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 08:49 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You choosing a specific system to stick with constitutes you having a pet system.
I see, you're back to calling laws "belief systems". You already lost that argument, so why rehash it?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Then, being the one with the positive claim over the set of possible systems, feel free to argue for it at some point.
What are the set of possible systems, and with whom would I argue it?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 09:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Very reasonable points and questions. 'Anarchy/anarchist' are pretty wide umbrella terms, which encompass anachro-capitalist to anachro-communist to anachro-'all y'all'.
That makes sense. At the same time, I've observed that calling yourself an "anarcho-capitalist" in some anarchist circles is likely to get you beat up. They're very fond of beating people up as a way of expressing their disagreement.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
If we take it as fundamentally meaning 'against Rulers', maybe it is easier to pin down. I see anarchy as a means rather than an end, a means of political expression against a system that is beyond repairing from within or discussing change with.
Which suggests a lot of anarchists are not very familiar with the philosophical underpinnings of anarchism, but are attracted to it because they are against the establishment as they see it.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Kind of like suggesting to Stalin to relinquish some power for the common good? I think there is no intent to destroy a given system, but to deliver the opening volley and normalize extreme dissent, in the sense of letting people know that others have reached the breaking point, too.
Do you self-identify as an anarchist? Or as an anarchist sympathizer?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Which suggests a lot of anarchists are not very familiar with the philosophical underpinnings of anarchism, but are attracted to it because they are against the establishment as they see it.
Balaclavas are the new Guy Fawkes mask.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 06:34 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That makes sense. At the same time, I've observed that calling yourself an "anarcho-capitalist" in some anarchist circles is likely to get you beat up. They're very fond of beating people up as a way of expressing their disagreement.



Which suggests a lot of anarchists are not very familiar with the philosophical underpinnings of anarchism, but are attracted to it because they are against the establishment as they see it.
Exactly. The same blanket term doesn't seem appropriate to describe the musings of Noam Chomsky and the actions of the 'anti-Milo' protesters at Berkeley. The anarchists I am familiar with (East coast, USA, late '80s to early '90s) were aligned against the three 'C's: corporatism, commercialism, and consumerism. While the idea of stateless/rulerless societies were kicked around, the 'enemy' was the masses who willingly prostrated before consumerism. It was a social revolt more than a political one, and certainly, as you say, attracted anti-authority types into the fold. It really would be much clearer to use different terms for the groups as they have little in common besides a distaste for direct rule (and don't we all).

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Do you self-identify as an anarchist? Or as an anarchist sympathizer?
Sympathizer. Sympathized more when younger, then grew up and got practical.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 03:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I see, you're back to calling laws "belief systems". You already lost that argument, so why rehash it?


Quote:
What are the set of possible systems
Any system you care to imagine.

Quote:
and with whom would I argue it?
Not with but for. Argue for your preferred system, as in: make a case for it.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 05:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Balaclavas are the new Guy Fawkes mask.
I'm still trying to figure out why some so-called anarchists identify with Guy Fawkes - who was obviously an advocate of the Religious State and State Control.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 05:18 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why some so-called anarchists identify with Guy Fawkes - who was obviously an advocate of the Religious State and State Control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film)

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V for Vendetta has been seen by many political groups as an allegory of oppression by government; libertarians and anarchists have used it to promote their beliefs. David Lloyd stated: "The Guy Fawkes mask has now become a common brand and a convenient placard to use in protest against tyranny and I'm happy with people using it, it seems quite unique, an icon of popular culture being used this way."[5]
Usually adapted by morons like 9/11 truthers and then later, occutards. I'd wager 99% of them couldn't tell you who they're wearing a mask of.
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Old 5th April 2017, 11:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What, you don't remember? Laws exist independently of your belief in them?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Any system you care to imagine..
So I'm supposed to argue for something without a reasonable alternative? Okay, my argument is that there are no reasonable alternatives.

Done.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not with but for. Argue for your preferred system, as in: make a case for it.
To whom?
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Old 5th April 2017, 05:25 PM   #69
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What, you don't remember? Laws exist independently of your belief in them?
There's nothing to remember because I didn't lose any argument about that. Also, your position is utterly moronic, of course laws don't exist independently of our belief in them.

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So I'm supposed to argue for something without a reasonable alternative? Okay, my argument is that there are no reasonable alternatives.
That's not an argument, that's an assertion, not that I'm holding my breath for you to develop the intellectual capacity for understanding the difference. Though good for you to finally admit that you do, indeed, have a pet system to promote - namely the status quo.
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Old 5th April 2017, 07:12 PM   #70
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There's nothing to remember because I didn't lose any argument about that. Also, your position is utterly moronic, of course laws don't exist independently of our belief in them.
Are you kidding? Civilizations have risen and fallen and we still know what their laws were (mostly). That nobody obeys or enforces them anymore doesn't make them go away or alter how they've influenced history.


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's not an argument, that's an assertion,
Yeah, just because something can be labeled with one nown doesn't mean other nouns don't also apply.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Though good for you to finally admit that you do, indeed, have a pet system to promote - namely the status quo.
Not at all. I'm always trying to change the status quo. When I do, I have ideas on how to make it better.

The idea that we should change the status quo without knowing what we're going to change it to is laughable to me. Almost as laughable as your assertion that I should argue for the parts I agree with. What a waste of time that would be.


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Old 6th April 2017, 10:02 PM   #71
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Are you kidding? Civilizations have risen and fallen and we still know what their laws were (mostly). That nobody obeys or enforces them anymore doesn't make them go away or alter how they've influenced history.
They're still human constructs which, being fully part of our beliefs, don't exist outside of our beliefs.

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Almost as laughable as your assertion that I should argue for the parts I agree with.
Of course you do. You don't just get to declare that parts of the system you promote do not require argumentation.
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Old 7th April 2017, 11:28 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
They're still human constructs which, being fully part of our beliefs, don't exist outside of our beliefs.
Certainly they do. That's why they have survived longer than the people who enforced them or obeyed them have.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course you do. You don't just get to declare that parts of the system you promote do not require argumentation.
Who requires this?
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Old 8th April 2017, 12:28 AM   #73
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Certainly they do.
Of course they don't. Erase everyone's beliefs, where have your laws gone now?

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Who requires this?
Not who, it's called "burden of proof".
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Old 8th April 2017, 08:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course they don't. Erase everyone's beliefs, where have your laws gone now?
The analogy that's been presented to you before is with religion and God. If you cease believing in God, religion remains.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not who, it's called "burden of proof".
Prove what to whom?
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Old 8th April 2017, 08:34 PM   #75
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The analogy that's been presented to you before is with religion and God. If you cease believing in God, religion remains.
If you erase everyone's beliefs then religion, being a belief, does not remain.

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Prove what to whom?
I was going to tell you to stop playing dumb, but you're probably not even playing. If you have a pet system to promote then it's up to you to argue its merits.
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Old 8th April 2017, 08:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you erase everyone's beliefs
You can't. So that's not relevant.
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Old 8th April 2017, 09:36 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film)



Usually adapted by morons like 9/11 truthers and then later, occutards. I'd wager 99% of them couldn't tell you who they're wearing a mask of.
I've heard some idiots even refer to it as a "V mask".
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Old 8th April 2017, 10:08 PM   #78
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I've heard some idiots even refer to it as a "V mask".
Thanks for the post! I'm starting to see the full-blown stupidity of the Guy-Fawkes Mask thing.
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Old 9th April 2017, 08:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you have a pet system to promote then it's up to you to argue its merits.
Note the key word?

I don't need to promote what already is, unless someone else wants to change it. When I want to make changes, I absolutely do argue the merits of the changes I want to make.
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Old 9th April 2017, 10:13 AM   #80
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't need to promote what already is, unless someone else wants to change it.
Sure you do. And even if you didn't, plenty of people want to change it so you still do, by your own argument.

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When I want to make changes, I absolutely do argue the merits of the changes I want to make.
No that's not how it works. If I promote a religion which is exactly the same as christianity but with "God" replaced with "Tod" then I still have a burden of proof for the entire religion and not just the "Tod" instead of "God" part.
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