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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 17th April 2017, 09:09 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
People keep saying this - that Trump purposefully courted bigots, that bigotry is a part of the overall Republican strategy, etc.

Has anybody got any evidence or supporting documentation that shows this is an intentional element of the platform as opposed to a by-product?
Yes. I read about a study this morning that showed that the authoritarian trait was less than the racist trait and the latter was significant. That was about 10 hours ago but I'll try to find it.
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Old 17th April 2017, 09:29 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
So we are back to square one: the democrats need to pander more to the racists, sexists, and other bigots.
This is such an odd view I seen taken by a number of posters here. Do you really believe that the majority of Trump voters match that description? And if they do, that those are the specifics they vote on in general?


Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not about "feeling better", it's about not wanting to be around someone who would vote for a person as morally repugnant as Trump.
You must have an incredibly high bar to be met when deciding to associate with others. Would you say you apply that thinking across the board? Obviously wouldn't associate with Ted Kennedy voters, but how about with MLK if he was still alive? Is an adulterer less morally repugnant as Trump? How about any celebrity that stood and clapped for Roman Polanski?

I always assume people put some kind of weighted scale judgement on these things, weighing the good and bad and deciding. Except for Trump voters, who obviously made their decisions exclusively because or in favor of his faults, not in spite of them.
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Old 17th April 2017, 09:39 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Yes. I read about a study this morning that showed that the authoritarian trait was less than the racist trait and the latter was significant. That was about 10 hours ago but I'll try to find it.
It was the American National Election Survey. The Washington Post did an analysis of the data. Still can't post URLs, though.
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Old 17th April 2017, 10:05 PM   #364
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Here is the link to the study 2016 American National Election Study

And the WP article referencing it Racism motivated Trump voters more than authoritarianism


Hopefully someone better versed in this can explain it better. I just see a steady baseline for R voters racial views and drop for D voters. So good job Democrats. Otherwise not sure what is really being inferred by this in regards to racism playing a significant role. [Edit] Guess they are using the gap between R and D to make some determination. So racists Democratic voters didn't vote D this time or switched over to R or the base in general became more racially aware. Seems like an odd position that the racist D voters voted for a black Democratic candidate but switched for a racist Republican candidate, because racism.

Last edited by rdwight; 17th April 2017 at 10:10 PM. Reason: add more thought
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:03 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you really think that most of the people who voted for him did so because he was rich? That's a theory I've haven't heard put forth. Doesn't mean it's not out there, just that I haven't run across it.
Why would he think something that is not what he actually posted?
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:57 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Do you think America moved forward on Civil Rights in the 60's by bending over backwards to accommodate the view of racist white southerners?
.
We did, how else did we get Sessions as the AG?
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:59 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think that the Civil Rights movement would have failed if it had alienated the support of sympathetic white people by vilifying all white people indiscriminately.
It just alienated the majority of white people.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:02 AM   #368
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:03 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
People keep saying this - that Trump purposefully courted bigots, that bigotry is a part of the overall Republican strategy, etc.

Has anybody got any evidence or supporting documentation that shows this is an intentional element of the platform as opposed to a by-product?
What would it take to convince you of that? Clearly the openly racist statements by trump that appeal to bigots are not enough.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:05 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
...BUILD THE WALL! BUILD THE WALL!
That is just fun happy school kid racism.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/28/health...middle-school/
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:13 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The Mexican Government rounds up murderers and rapists and ships them across the border - remember that one?
Now, now. Some, I assume, are good people.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:20 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What would it take to convince you of that? Clearly the openly racist statements by trump that appeal to bigots are not enough.
For some people they literally require that someone say that white people are better than black people (or Mexicans or whatever) to admit racism. I guess it is an effective way of sticking your head in the sand.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:27 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
For some people they literally require that someone say that white people are better than black people (or Mexicans or whatever) to admit racism. I guess it is an effective way of sticking your head in the sand.
I have a hard time believing those people are actually this ignorant. I think, instead, that they want to convince people that there is no dog-whistle while they keep on blowing it.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:41 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
For some people they literally require that someone say that white people are better than black people (or Mexicans or whatever) to admit racism. I guess it is an effective way of sticking your head in the sand.
It comes out most clearly these days in statements lauding the accomplishments of Western civilization, which are mostly thought of as made by white northern Europeans in powdered wigs. Which is in itself odd, given that the Enlightenment and Age of Reason are exactly what give these same racists "issues." They'll happily take the bling, but not the hard factual and scientific work that created it.
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Old 18th April 2017, 05:53 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ahem, Jeff Sessions, Mexicans are filth, you know that Jeff Sessions.
How dare you question Jeff Sessions long history of caring about Civil Rights Whites!
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Old 18th April 2017, 05:55 AM   #376
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I hope that Jeff Sessions dies soon.
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Old 18th April 2017, 08:39 AM   #377
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Trump might decide to stay in the Paris Accord because of Ivanka and Jared. And Rex Tillerson (!). And despite what that scumbag Bannon wants.

Quote:
On the campaign trail, Mr. Trump vowed to “cancel” the climate deal, and his most politically conservative advisers, including his senior strategist Stephen K. Bannon, have pushed him to follow through. But Mr. Bannon’s influence has waned in recent weeks, while authority has risen for Mr. Trump’s daughter Ivanka and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who advocate staying in the accord.

Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson, the former chief executive of Exxon Mobil, has also spoken in favor of “keeping a seat at the table” in the climate pact, and in recent days, major corporations have stepped forward to embrace that position.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/u...=politics&_r=0
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:04 AM   #378
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Mod WarningRemember that this thread is about President Trump and his administration and not any former opponent he had during the election. Please keep the discussion about the current administration, and the events of the day.
Posted By:kmortis
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:05 AM   #379
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Despite what the tribals in the Republican party might scream about and say, even gas, coal, and general energy companies recognize and admit they are externalizing costs by being allowed to dump carbon into the atmosphere. Many of them favor a light carbon tax. In my view, they do this as another stalling tactic against stronger measures just as they've been supporting science denial for the same end, and not because they themselves believed it.

But that same tactic of stalling is probably why Tillerson wants to 'keep a seat at the table'. I've said before, that flat denial and refusal simply removes one from most agency over the decisions being made. Further in this situation it diminishes America's soft power for no true gain (although our soft power has already taken a huge beating because Trump's an obvious con artist and we elected him). China leading over the US on energy tech and pollution control? That means America sucks.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:09 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Despite what the tribals in the Republican party might scream about and say, even gas, coal, and general energy companies recognize and admit they are externalizing costs by being allowed to dump carbon into the atmosphere. Many of them favor a light carbon tax. In my view, they do this as another stalling tactic against stronger measures just as they've been supporting science denial for the same end, and not because they themselves believed it.

But that same tactic of stalling is probably why Tillerson wants to 'keep a seat at the table'. I've said before, that flat denial and refusal simply removes one from most agency over the decisions being made. Further in this situation it diminishes America's soft power for no true gain (although our soft power has already taken a huge beating because Trump's an obvious con artist and we elected him). China leading over the US on energy tech and pollution control? That means America sucks.
Yeah, you're right. I'm glad our Secretary of State isn't a total moron.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:28 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah, you're right. I'm glad our Secretary of State isn't a total moron.
But I assume you are still smarter than he?

And I wonder if he is on the list of people you hope die soon?
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:35 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
But I assume you are still smarter than he?
It is possible he hates Trump (or at least doesn't think Trump is fit for the presidency) but hopes he can mitigate the damage. Other people that this might apply to include Secretary of Defence Mattis, National Security Advisor McMaster, and Secretary of Homeland Security Kelly.

If those people actually think that Donald Trump is good president, yeah, I'm sure I'm smarter than them.

Quote:
And I wonder if he is on the list of people you hope die soon?
No. But I hope Betsy DeVos dies soon, to give another example.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 18th April 2017 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:03 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
... No. But I hope Betsy DeVos dies soon, to give another example.
And Pruitt. I want to introduce him to a large anaconda and live broadcast.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:06 AM   #384
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Apart from the obvious moral issues in wishing someone dead, and the psychological effects such thinking can have on the person having those thoughts, have you considered that them simply dying could actually lead to worse people?

I'd rather see them removed from office in disgrace, preferably in a way that shows their ideologically driven ideas to be as bankrupt as Trump's casinos. Especially because I now see that so many Republicans would go down swinging to defend them, or at least attack their opponents.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:08 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
And Pruitt. I want to introduce him to a large anaconda and live broadcast.
Yeah, that's a better example. Pruitt will probably end up doing more damage than DeVos.

I hope that Scott Pruitt dies soon. Maybe he gets cancer from the corporations he is trying to protect.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:09 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Apart from the obvious moral issues in wishing someone dead, and the psychological effects such thinking can have on the person having those thoughts, have you considered that them simply dying could actually lead to worse people?

I'd rather see them removed from office in disgrace, preferably in a way that shows their ideologically driven ideas to be as bankrupt as Trump's casinos. Especially because I now see that so many Republicans would go down swinging to defend them, or at least attack their opponents.
I don't think it is possible to have people worse than Sessions, Pruitt, or DeVos.

If Sessions dies of heart attack today, I will be happy.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 18th April 2017 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:12 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I don't think it is possible to have people worse than Sessions, Pruitt, or DeVos.
I'd say it another way. The extent to which it can get worse is small, the extent to which it can better, even how unlikely, is great.

I'd hold out hope for the chance that it will get better. I won't say it can't be worse, but it can't be MUCH worse.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:19 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'd say it another way. The extent to which it can get worse is small, the extent to which it can better, even how unlikely, is great.

I'd hold out hope for the chance that it will get better. I won't say it can't be worse, but it can't be MUCH worse.
Yeah that is well stated.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:00 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Keep saying that long enough, and they won't want anything to do with you either... nor with the parties that you end up representing. Sure fire way to make sure your preferred party doesn't win any future elections.
Nope, a surefire way to win is to outnumber such folks at the polls.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:51 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Nope, a surefire way to win is to outnumber such folks at the polls.
If that was true Clinton would be in the White House and the Democratic Party would control the Senate.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:53 AM   #391
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Some of you may recall I took a break from the forum some time ago.

I recall I was dismayed over the joy some were taking over the deaths of those they disagreed with either politically or philosophically. I think it was celebration over the deaths of Phyllis Schlafly or Antonin Scalia or both.

I gets to a point where I have to ask myself if these are the kind of people I would choose to hang out with in real life. If not, why hang out with them online?

Now, more than one member is actually wishing for the death of others based on nothing other than differing political philosophy or world view.

One recently popularized word summarizes such death wishes to me: deplorable.

I still find some benefit and entertainment from this forum, so will stick around for now. But if you find me sometimes unresponsive to posts, its because for right now I'm going to use a scalpel to hide at least some of the more deplorable members here. Maybe that will keep the forum as a net positive in my life.

Will just have to see how it works out.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:54 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I don't think it is possible to have people worse than Sessions, Pruitt, or DeVos.

If Sessions dies of heart attack today, I will be happy.
Bannon.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:56 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
If that was true Clinton would be in the White House and the Democratic Party would control the Senate.
Well, yes, I should say "plus enough margin to overcome our undemocratic system," but that is possible without pandering to bigots.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:48 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
...BUILD THE WALL! BUILD THE WALL!

I hope you're not going down this sad road - "He didn't say the N-Word, how can you tell if he's racist..."

Lee Atwater: Hide your racism behind policy - deport, build a wall, ban Muslims, er, I mean people from certain countries.

Plausible deniability only seems to fool vapid media types.
I don't think it's vapidity. I also don't think it's necessarily racist, nor even bigoted.

For example... most of my family is black and hispanic in ethnicity. Most of them are pretty staunchly against illegal immigration. Most of them don't support amnesty arrangements for illegal immigrants. I don't think their position is indicative of bigotry.

Taking a stance against illegal immigration and against the threat of foreign terrorists isn't necessarily the result of bigotry. It could be, but by itself is not sufficient evidence to conclude bigotry.

Otherwise, a very large chunk of my black and hispanic family with strong military backgrounds are all bigots... which I find pretty questionable.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:48 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Some of you may recall I took a break from the forum some time ago.

I recall I was dismayed over the joy some were taking over the deaths of those they disagreed with either politically or philosophically. I think it was celebration over the deaths of Phyllis Schlafly or Antonin Scalia or both.

I gets to a point where I have to ask myself if these are the kind of people I would choose to hang out with in real life. If not, why hang out with them online?

Now, more than one member is actually wishing for the death of others based on nothing other than differing political philosophy or world view.

One recently popularized word summarizes such death wishes to me: deplorable.

I still find some benefit and entertainment from this forum, so will stick around for now. But if you find me sometimes unresponsive to posts, its because for right now I'm going to use a scalpel to hide at least some of the more deplorable members here. Maybe that will keep the forum as a net positive in my life.

Will just have to see how it works out.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:50 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The Mexican Government rounds up murderers and rapists and ships them across the border - remember that one?
... Is that actually what he said?
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:51 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
They keep saying it to you because it's so glaringly obvious yet you keep making an issue of it. Nobody says it much beyond your ken because, you know, glaringly obvious.
That holds as much water as people saying that it's glaringly obvious that Clinton thinks that rural americans are stupid people and all bigots.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:57 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
... Is that actually what he said?
Here's what he said:

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
Sure seems like he's talking about the Mexican government sending rapists to the US, but as with most of Trump's statements, it is ambiguous.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:03 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't think it's vapidity. I also don't think it's necessarily racist, nor even bigoted.

For example... most of my family is black and hispanic in ethnicity. Most of them are pretty staunchly against illegal immigration. Most of them don't support amnesty arrangements for illegal immigrants. I don't think their position is indicative of bigotry.

Taking a stance against illegal immigration and against the threat of foreign terrorists isn't necessarily the result of bigotry. It could be, but by itself is not sufficient evidence to conclude bigotry.

Otherwise, a very large chunk of my black and hispanic family with strong military backgrounds are all bigots... which I find pretty questionable.
Blacks and hispanics can't be bigots?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:06 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't think it's vapidity. I also don't think it's necessarily racist, nor even bigoted.

For example... most of my family is black and hispanic in ethnicity. Most of them are pretty staunchly against illegal immigration. Most of them don't support amnesty arrangements for illegal immigrants. I don't think their position is indicative of bigotry.
Because there exist some non-bigots who oppose illegal immigration, it does not follow that none of the supporters are bigots. Again, the studies have been done. Racial resentment is the single strongest indicator of support for Trump.

Quote:
Taking a stance against illegal immigration and against the threat of foreign terrorists isn't necessarily the result of bigotry. It could be, but by itself is not sufficient evidence to conclude bigotry.
And in the South they were just worried about the safety of those poor white women at the swimming pool.

Look, you're smart. You should be more than capable of understanding that racists have figured out how to express their racism without resorting to obvious indicators. It's Lee Atwater:

Quote:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "******, ******, ******." By 1968 you can't say "******"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
You can't say, "I hate Mexicans," so you say, "I'm worried about illegal immigration." Illegal immigration is not a significant problem in this country. The only real victims of illegal immigration are abused and exploited immigrants. Everything else can be solved with a tiny sum of money compared to the size of our government and the cost of that dumb wall.

You can't say, "I hate Muslims," so you say you're "worried about terrorism." America does not have a problem with Islamic terrorism. The largest and deadliest terror organization in our nation's history was white and protestant. More people are killed by toddlers with guns than Islamic terrorists.

This is a tired old tactic. It's transparent. Trump is the guy who moved into politics by arguing the first black president couldn't have been American. He nominated Jeff Sessions, who was too racist for the federal judiciary in the 80's.

You think he would have said that the white mother of a slain soldier wasn't allowed to talk? Remember the judge who was too Mexican to judge him fairly? He was sued by the justice department for racial discrimination, workers at his casinos have complained about racial discrimination, he was sued for removing black card dealers at the request of patrons. Central Park five, Native Americans opening casinos - the list of people he's slurred is long.

This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Otherwise, a very large chunk of my black and hispanic family with strong military backgrounds are all bigots... which I find pretty questionable.
There is a long history in this nation of members of oppressed group justifying that oppression to curry favor with the dominant power structure. A minority can easily contribute to white supremacy, even if they mean well.

And again, pointing to token people who are not bigots does not change the fact that racial resentment was the single largest indicator of Trump support:
[quote]
More recent data is bringing the drivers of Trumpism into sharper focus, and what we're seeing is striking: Racial attitudes may play a larger role in opinions toward Trump than once thought. Economic concerns, on the other hand, don't seem to have as much of an impact on support for Trump./QUOTE]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.62743dda2c59
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