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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito , sexism issues

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Old 20th April 2017, 03:11 PM   #401
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Consider just this one argument from Vixen; suppose there were bloody footprints in the hallway between Meredith's bedroom and the bathroom and Amanda and Raffaele DID clean them up. How in God's name did they manage to wipe that up and STILL retain the foot impression? Anyone who has ever looked at Luminol results understand when an area has been cleaned what Luminol reveals is a massive blob of swirl marks. It does NOT reveal a footprint because the footprint was destroyed during the cleaning. Now, that's not to say Luminol has never revealed a footprint before, but in those cases the area was not cleaned, it was simply such a faint trace that the blood was not visible without the help of Luminol to light it up. But in the 9+ years since this crime happened the PGP have never been smart enough to figure this out. It displays an alarming lack of critical thought by the PGP.
The whole point of luminol is to make visible what is invisible to the naked-eye. Not only would luminol find blobs like was found in the hallway, but it would also find the distinctive marks (swirls, etc.) of a clean-up. However, once luminol is used, that should always be amended to "attempted" clean-up.

Please note upthread that Vixen also alleged a clean-up in the murderroom itself, one which - you know the drill here - removed two of three forensic identities.

Maybe that's what the lamp was for!
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:36 PM   #402
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The whole point of luminol is to make visible what is invisible to the naked-eye. Not only would luminol find blobs like was found in the hallway, but it would also find the distinctive marks (swirls, etc.) of a clean-up. However, once luminol is used, that should always be amended to "attempted" clean-up.

Please note upthread that Vixen also alleged a clean-up in the murderroom itself, one which - you know the drill here - removed two of three forensic identities.

Maybe that's what the lamp was for!
That lamp was part of Amanda's and Raffaele's very own DNA analyzing and fingerprint identification kit that they'd ordered online. Thanks goodness the cops fried their hard drives or surely that would have come to light!
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:07 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That lamp was part of Amanda's and Raffaele's very own DNA analyzing and fingerprint identification kit that they'd ordered online. Thanks goodness the cops fried their hard drives or surely that would have come to light!
Yea, I hear that they sell that DNA detecting lamp on Amazon now for $39.95. Free shipping with Amazon Prime.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:27 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yea, I hear that they sell that DNA detecting lamp on Amazon now for $39.95. Free shipping with Amazon Prime.
We need a "like" button.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:25 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The whole point of luminol is to make visible what is invisible to the naked-eye. Not only would luminol find blobs like was found in the hallway, but it would also find the distinctive marks (swirls, etc.) of a clean-up. However, once luminol is used, that should always be amended to "attempted" clean-up.

Please note upthread that Vixen also alleged a clean-up in the murderroom itself, one which - you know the drill here - removed two of three forensic identities.

Maybe that's what the lamp was for!
Quick, you had better let the Rome Forensic Laboratories know about this toute suite.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:28 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yea, I hear that they sell that DNA detecting lamp on Amazon now for $39.95. Free shipping with Amazon Prime.
Do you get paid for product placement?
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:11 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
What perhaps is most strange is that some PGP apparently think that the ECHR will make a ruling about Amanda being "innocent" or not, or that somehow my opinion that the ECHR will rule in her favor is based on my belief that Amanda is innocent.

My opinions are based solely on my reading of the ECHR case law and the evidence (facts) of the case. I am confident that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent because I have read and comprehended the significance of the evidence in the case. Likewise, I have read enough ECHR case law to be confident of its (eventually) ruling that Italy violated Amanda's rights under the Convention; the ECHR strictly follows its precedents.

The ECHR is not a court of appeal and does not judge anyone "guilty" or "not guilty". The only "person" on trial - and it is really a kind of civil trial - is the respondent state, in this case, Italy. The ECHR will find either that Amanda's rights under the Convention were violated by Italy, or that they were not, for each of her allegations of a violation. This has nothing to do directly with whether or not she is "innocent" (not guilty) or guilty of calunnia. However, by the ECHR ruling that Italy had violated her rights, Italy will be obligated to give Amanda a revision trial strictly adhering to the Convention. This means that "evidence" consisting of statements obtained from her under coercion in an interrogation without a lawyer, and defensive statements (the memoriales) she wrote in custody but before she had the counsel of a lawyer, will not be admissible as evidence against her. Since these were the only evidence against her for the charge of calunnia, she must be acquitted of the charge of calunnia, or the charge must be dismissed (equivalent to an acquittal).

I don't think it is the PGP making that mistake. It is the PIP who seem to believe the ECHR has some kind of magical power to reverse the conviction of calunnia.

The appeal has not even been deemed 'admissible' yet, even at this very late date.

90% of all applications are rejected. To bring a complaint under Article 3 (torture: 'violation of human rights') it has to be shown:

(a) the violation is a substantial one, not simply whether the police failed to bring you a cup of tea, for example,

(b) has given rise to a claim for damages,

(c) does not apply to persons walking into a police station voluntarily supplying information naming a person as the perpetrator of a specific crime. (The police are NOT obliged to provide a lawyer for this purpose.)

(d) the person has said on the witness stand in their trial they had no complaints about the police treatment,

(e) has never lodged a complaint through the proper process before applying to the ECHR and

(f) Dalla Vedova has technically breached his code of conduct by not doing so.

It is well worth reading through the terms and conditions of admissibility of the ECHR here:

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/CO...d_Talk_ENG.PDF
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Last edited by Vixen; 21st April 2017 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:25 AM   #408
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It may be worthwhile to point out that Knox v. Italy is about a conviction and prison sentence for 3 years resulting from an unfair trial, not about whether someone was or was not brought tea. It is typical of the misrepresentations of the PGP to pretend that a case is about some essentially irrelevant details not mentioned in the facts, and not about alleged violations of Articles 3, 6, and 8.

To help, here again is the summary from the Country Profile of Italy, p.12, of the "noteworthy pending case" in question, with certain important general statements highlighted:

Amanda Marie Knox v. Italy (no. 76577/13)
Case communicated to the parties in April 2016
This case concerns criminal proceedings in which Ms Knox was found guilty of making a false accusation. The offending statements were taken while she was being questioned in the context of criminal proceedings for the murder and sexual assault of her flatmate. The applicant was accused of implicating another person whom she knew to be innocent.
Ms Knox alleges that the criminal proceedings in which she was convicted were unfair, relying on Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (a) (right to a fair trial – right to be informed promptly of the charge), (c) (right to legal assistance), (e) (right to assistance from an interpreter), Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment) and Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life) of the Convention.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:05 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
It may be worthwhile to point out that Knox v. Italy is about a conviction and prison sentence for 3 years resulting from an unfair trial, not about whether someone was or was not brought tea. It is typical of the misrepresentations of the PGP to pretend that a case is about some essentially irrelevant details not mentioned in the facts, and not about alleged violations of Articles 3, 6, and 8.
I've cultivated a huge bias in the last while, and I hope it is not an unfair bias.

Whenever someone from the PGP says their opinion is derived from reading 10,000 pages of court testimony, I take that as "code" for that they are about to spout something from John Follain's book, "A Death in Italy." There's a reason why the fake-Wiki cites Follain's book as it primary source.

Follain's account of the interrogation(s) cannot be more misleading. Indeed, it really doesn't square with Mignini's own accounting for the interrogation(s) he related to CNN's Drew Griffin in 2010.

In any event, that's what I think of when reading your post above, Numbers. Follain leaves his readers with the impression that Knox suddenly, and out of the blue named Lumumba to stop all the good treatment she'd been getting - the chamomile tea and biscuits.

Did not Ficarra once complain that Knox was such an ill-manner American, that she confessed while her mouth was full with biscuits, that she sprayed around the room like an ill-mannered American would?
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:38 AM   #410
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A poster has written, apparently regarding Knox and her case against Italy before the ECHR:

"the person has said on the witness stand in their trial they had no complaints about the police treatment".

If this were true for Knox, why did Mignini launch a prosecution against Knox for criminal "aggravated continuing calunnia" against the police and himself for her testimony in the Massei court and statement in her appeals to the Italian courts? Knox was acquitted of these charges by the Boninsegna court, a verdict that became final when the prosecution did not appeal the verdict.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:40 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think it is the PGP making that mistake. It is the PIP who seem to believe the ECHR has some kind of magical power to reverse the conviction of calunnia.
You could be correct about this though I think those paying attention understand the best that can be achieved through the ECHR is to essentially force Italy into conducting a revision trial, and that if the ECHR rules in Amanda's favor then Italy essentially has no evidence to try Amanda with.
Quote:
The appeal has not even been deemed 'admissible' yet, even at this very late date.
Why do you feel the need to continuously introduce your characterizations of things. Given the ECHR's typical scheduling, April 2017 is NOT a "very late date."
Quote:
90% of all applications are rejected. To bring a complaint under Article 3 (torture: 'violation of human rights') it has to be shown:

(a) the violation is a substantial one, not simply whether the police failed to bring you a cup of tea, for example,
I'd say failure to be promptly notified of charges, failure to provide a lawyer, failure to provide an impartial interpreter, inhuman and degrading treatment and failure to respect private and family life are all rather serious charges that, as Numbers has repeatedly shown, are all violations the ECHR considers very egregious.
Quote:

(b) has given rise to a claim for damages,

(c) does not apply to persons walking into a police station voluntarily supplying information naming a person as the perpetrator of a specific crime. (The police are NOT obliged to provide a lawyer for this purpose.)
Now you're inserting your own opinions which, btw, is contradicted by the ISC ruling regarding her signed statements.
Quote:

(d) the person has said on the witness stand in their trial they had no complaints about the police treatment,
Not at all true. Here's just one of Amanda's spontaneous declarations made during trial in March, 2009

" First of all there are hours and hours where they don’t say that I continued to confirm my same version even when they told me that Raffaele apparently said that I left the house. There was this aggressive insistence about the message that I received and replied to Patrick, really aggressive! They called me “a stupid liar”, from everywhere... there was also this story of the trauma that this Donnino had told me about and then after that she suggested that this could have been the same situation that happened to me. In the sense that right while I couldn’t remember very well because I was traumatized and because of this I should be able to remember something different. Then these slaps on the head that I really did receive... it’s true, I’m sorry, that’s the way it was!"
Quote:

(e) has never lodged a complaint through the proper process before applying to the ECHR and

(f) Dalla Vedova has technically breached his code of conduct by not doing so.
No clue what you mean with items (e) and (f) but it's clear the application to the ECHR was made correctly and that all domestic remedies have been exhausted.
Quote:

It is well worth reading through the terms and conditions of admissibility of the ECHR here:

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/CO...d_Talk_ENG.PDF
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:21 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
You could be correct about this though I think those paying attention understand the best that can be achieved through the ECHR is to essentially force Italy into conducting a revision trial, and that if the ECHR rules in Amanda's favor then Italy essentially has no evidence to try Amanda with.

Why do you feel the need to continuously introduce your characterizations of things. Given the ECHR's typical scheduling, April 2017 is NOT a "very late date."

I'd say failure to be promptly notified of charges, failure to provide a lawyer, failure to provide an impartial interpreter, inhuman and degrading treatment and failure to respect private and family life are all rather serious charges that, as Numbers has repeatedly shown, are all violations the ECHR considers very egregious.
Now you're inserting your own opinions which, btw, is contradicted by the ISC ruling regarding her signed statements.
Not at all true. Here's just one of Amanda's spontaneous declarations made during trial in March, 2009

" First of all there are hours and hours where they don’t say that I continued to confirm my same version even when they told me that Raffaele apparently said that I left the house. There was this aggressive insistence about the message that I received and replied to Patrick, really aggressive! They called me “a stupid liar”, from everywhere... there was also this story of the trauma that this Donnino had told me about and then after that she suggested that this could have been the same situation that happened to me. In the sense that right while I couldn’t remember very well because I was traumatized and because of this I should be able to remember something different. Then these slaps on the head that I really did receive... it’s true, I’m sorry, that’s the way it was!"
No clue what you mean with items (e) and (f) but it's clear the application to the ECHR was made correctly and that all domestic remedies have been exhausted.
This is correct, but as you may appreciate, these specifics are part of larger violations of the Convention, which is the conviction of a person (Knox) following an unfair trial. The specifics you mention are among the elements contributing to the unfairness of the trial, although each of them is itself a violation of the Convention. But it is the combination of them that may be most significant in terms of demonstrating the degree of unfairness in the trial.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:23 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
A poster has written, apparently regarding Knox and her case against Italy before the ECHR:

"the person has said on the witness stand in their trial they had no complaints about the police treatment".

If this were true for Knox, why did Mignini launch a prosecution against Knox for criminal "aggravated continuing calunnia" against the police and himself for her testimony in the Massei court and statement in her appeals to the Italian courts? Knox was acquitted of these charges by the Boninsegna court, a verdict that became final when the prosecution did not appeal the verdict.
And if you recall, Boninsegnia criticised the police as overkilling with kindness. He knocked them for treating her with overweening sympathy and hugging her, etc.


That'll be a precedent: 'violation of human rights and degrading human treatment' by being too kind.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:33 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And if you recall, Boninsegnia criticised the police as overkilling with kindness. He knocked them for treating her with overweening sympathy and hugging her, etc.


That'll be a precedent: 'violation of human rights and degrading human treatment' by being too kind.
So are you simply not aware of the multiple testimonies of Amanda where she details the mistreatment she received at the hands of the police or are you just deliberately pretending they weren't made?
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:39 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
This is correct, but as you may appreciate, these specifics are part of larger violations of the Convention, which is the conviction of a person (Knox) following an unfair trial. The specifics you mention are among the elements contributing to the unfairness of the trial, although each of them is itself a violation of the Convention. But it is the combination of them that may be most significant in terms of demonstrating the degree of unfairness in the trial.
Absolutely. Everybody should have the right to name a person who could be arrested and jailed for fun. Someone black and non-Italian you think the police might arrest pronto and hopefully beat up for being in possession of an offensive skin.

And as for the ECHR, let's complain about the police brutally in hugging you and bringing you snacks and camomile tea, when - hey, shlumps! - I need you to knock me about about a bit and give me a black eye and a few cracked ribs, as it does my ECHR claim no good when you spout off kindly words and deprive one of the right to go to a doctor and get a medical report of all the, er, injuries inflicted, er, or lack thereof, and the psychological pain of being caught out lying - um, confessing, I mean a 'forced confession' - one wasn't even allowed a comfort break; all that tea was torture - it was, er, forced because, um, I blurted out my confession and accusation, and they should have guessed - known - I would do this, as it's obvious one is really flaky, I mean, vulnerable, and er, I was just a kid, with er, learning difficulties, yeah, that's right, and I should have had my Mom with me, and er, if they knew I was a pathological liar, then they should have made sure I had a lawyer who could make me SHUT UP, instead of incriminating myself. Yeah, that's it.

Anyway who cares about Patrick when you've got a US citizen who was supposed to have been met at the airport by President Obama, but never mind one got Trump to pay half my legal fees anyway. What a shnorrer, thought he could buy my vote. Der!
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:53 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Absolutely. Everybody should have the right to name a person who could be arrested and jailed for fun. Someone black and non-Italian you think the police might arrest pronto and hopefully beat up for being in possession of an offensive skin.
Every once in a while I forget this is what you believe happened. Yet this is not what anyone said happened.

Every once in a while, when they have nothing else, the PGP play the race card and deal it from the bottom of the deck.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:55 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Vixen
And if you recall, Boninsegnia criticised the police as overkilling with kindness. He knocked them for treating her with overweening sympathy and hugging her, etc.
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
So are you simply not aware of the multiple testimonies of Amanda where she details the mistreatment she received at the hands of the police or are you just deliberately pretending they weren't made?
Once again, Vixen alleges something about Boninsegna's court with no citation.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:02 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
the person has said on the witness stand in their trial they had no complaints about the police treatment,
Did you know that some of her testimony is on youtube?

Here she shows how she was slapped and mistreated by the police during the interrogation:
https://youtu.be/EIORm_-1XJ8?t=121

(Full here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q05c7kr3Smw)

Another one here in English:
https://youtu.be/CEyYrSZx-3Q?t=1013
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:51 AM   #419
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Vixen, now that we've established that

1) Knox and Sollecito knew about the bath mat and the blood in the bathroom before calling 112,

2) that they had plenty of time to remove/clean both beforehand,

3) and that Leopold's glasses were left behind unknowingly

what is your explanation as to why Knox and Sollecito not only left such, according to you, incriminating evidence but pointed both out to the police?
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:58 AM   #420
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Vixen, how do you explain away Lumumba's own description of being hit, punched, kicked, called a racial slur and threatened with 30 years if he didn't confess?

Why does his account sound similar, even worse, than Amanda's? He had no way of knowing what she had said about her own interrogation at that time. Coincidence?
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Old 21st April 2017, 11:25 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen, how do you explain away Lumumba's own description of being hit, punched, kicked, called a racial slur and threatened with 30 years if he didn't confess?

Why does his account sound similar, even worse, than Amanda's? He had no way of knowing what she had said about her own interrogation at that time. Coincidence?
I pointed out in a previous post that PGP are strangely quiet about the apalling treatment Lumumba received at the hands of the police.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:06 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
I pointed out in a previous post that PGP are strangely quiet about the apalling treatment Lumumba received at the hands of the police.
Yes, they are quiet on this other than to note that he later said he was "treated well". Of course, we don't know what prompted this 180 degree reversal. Could it possibly be that he didn't want to be sued for calunnia or he wanted to get his bar reopened months after his innocence was ascertained? Nah...

Whether he was lying about his mistreatment just after his release or later when he totally contradicted himself, either way he is a liar.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:11 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The whole point of luminol is to make visible what is invisible to the naked-eye. Not only would luminol find blobs like was found in the hallway, but it would also find the distinctive marks (swirls, etc.) of a clean-up. However, once luminol is used, that should always be amended to "attempted" clean-up.

Please note upthread that Vixen also alleged a clean-up in the murderroom itself, one which - you know the drill here - removed two of three forensic identities.

Maybe that's what the lamp was for!
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Quick, you had better let the Rome Forensic Laboratories know about this toute suite.
I suspect they already know this basic fact. Which is why no evidence of any clean up was ever presented in court.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:34 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And if you recall, Boninsegnia criticised the police as overkilling with kindness. He knocked them for treating her with overweening sympathy and hugging her, etc.


That'll be a precedent: 'violation of human rights and degrading human treatment' by being too kind.
What Boninsegnia criticized was the interpreters' and Raffo's uncalled for and out of line displays of empathy/maternal affection toward Knox which they called "unorthodox". Not "the police"; just Raffo, Donnino, and Colantone. Nowhere did Boninsegnia agree that Knox was treated with kindness by Ficarra or the other police or treated in the manner they describes. In fact, he calls their accounts "sugarcoated":

Quote:
The different, unorthodox, method applied by the law enforcement and their auxiliary personnel, while apparently sugarcoated, is certainly not an elegant counterpoint to, but rather in irreconcilable conflict with the immediately subsequent incarceration of the woman:
Boninsegnia actually agreed with Hellmann's findings on the calunnia charges; that Amanda was psychologically pressured into a "confession" under extreme stress and only wanted the interrogation to end...to escape the pressure of the interrogation.

His findings were that the evidence supported Amanda's version of events and not the police's version.

Quote:
There is not, hence, sufficient evidence that the events did not occur as Knox reported, as regards the police.

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Old 21st April 2017, 08:34 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What Boninsegnia criticized was the interpreters' and Raffo's uncalled for and out of line displays of empathy/maternal affection toward Knox which they called "unorthodox". Not "the police"; just Raffo, Donnino, and Colantone. Nowhere did Boninsegnia agree that Knox was treated with kindness by Ficarra or the other police or treated in the manner they describes. In fact, he calls their accounts "sugarcoated":



Boninsegnia actually agreed with Hellmann's findings on the calunnia charges; that Amanda was psychologically pressured into a "confession" under extreme stress and only wanted the interrogation to end...to escape the pressure of the interrogation.

His findings were that the evidence supported Amanda's version of events and not the police's version.
Yes, you've given an excellent summary of some of Boninsegna's main points. He stated that under Italian law (including its Constitution) Knox was to be given defense rights, such as having a lawyer, that she did not receive during the interrogation; in the MR, he mentioned the Gemelli CSC panel judgment which noted that the police and prosecutor had violated CPP Article 63. Boninsegna stated that it was the duty of the police to act professionally, and not maternally nor inhumanely, toward Knox, a suspect they were interrogating. He points out that the police seized (took) Knox's phone without a warrant, which shows clearly that she was a suspect.

It's remarkable in terms of the discussion on this forum that the PGP never mention the Gemelli CSC panel decision that the police and prosecutor had violated CPP Article 63; that is why neither statement that Knox made during the interrogation could be used against her during the murder/rape trial. Gemelli allowed the statements to be used "only" during the criminal calunnia trial - which was going on before the same judges (professional and lay) in the same proceedings as the murder rape trial.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:52 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Yes, you've given an excellent summary of some of Boninsegna's main points. He stated that under Italian law (including its Constitution) Knox was to be given defense rights, such as having a lawyer, that she did not receive during the interrogation; in the MR, he mentioned the Gemelli CSC panel judgment which noted that the police and prosecutor had violated CPP Article 63. Boninsegna stated that it was the duty of the police to act professionally, and not maternally nor inhumanely, toward Knox, a suspect they were interrogating. He points out that the police seized (took) Knox's phone without a warrant, which shows clearly that she was a suspect.

It's remarkable in terms of the discussion on this forum that the PGP never mention the Gemelli CSC panel decision that the police and prosecutor had violated CPP Article 63; that is why neither statement that Knox made during the interrogation could be used against her during the murder/rape trial. Gemelli allowed the statements to be used "only" during the criminal calunnia trial - which was going on before the same judges (professional and lay) in the same proceedings as the murder rape trial.
But, oddly enough, some do mention Boninsegnia even though that MR was extremely critical of how the police handled the interrogation. It was actually refreshing to read a report that called Donnino out for her very inappropriate conduct. The court made clear the police had an obligation to provide Amanda with a neutral translator and that using one who was a member of the Perugia police created a conflict of interest highlighted by Donnino's efforts to convince Amanda she had amnesia due to trauma. Why anyone thinks pointing to the findings of this court is beneficial to the PGP is beyond me.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:40 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
But, oddly enough, some do mention Boninsegnia even though that MR was extremely critical of how the police handled the interrogation. It was actually refreshing to read a report that called Donnino out for her very inappropriate conduct. The court made clear the police had an obligation to provide Amanda with a neutral translator and that using one who was a member of the Perugia police created a conflict of interest highlighted by Donnino's efforts to convince Amanda she had amnesia due to trauma. Why anyone thinks pointing to the findings of this court is beneficial to the PGP is beyond me.
If nothing else, it shows the willingness to "read into" things what one wants to hear back from those same things. Much like repeatedly claiming that Marasca-Bruno in 2015 thought that Ak was at the scene during the murder, or had written that AK had faked the break-in to divert attention from Rudy. Or some such nonsense.

This is as opposed to letting documents tell their own story, which regardless of where you stand in this, means letting Boninsegna be Boninsegna and not twisting his words.

But then again, that is this case in a nutshell.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:05 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Absolutely. Everybody should have the right to name a person who could be arrested and jailed for fun. Someone black and non-Italian you think the police might arrest pronto and hopefully beat up for being in possession of an offensive skin.

And as for the ECHR, let's complain about the police brutally in hugging you and bringing you snacks and camomile tea, when - hey, shlumps! - I need you to knock me about about a bit and give me a black eye and a few cracked ribs, as it does my ECHR claim no good when you spout off kindly words and deprive one of the right to go to a doctor and get a medical report of all the, er, injuries inflicted, er, or lack thereof, and the psychological pain of being caught out lying - um, confessing, I mean a 'forced confession' - one wasn't even allowed a comfort break; all that tea was torture - it was, er, forced because, um, I blurted out my confession and accusation, and they should have guessed - known - I would do this, as it's obvious one is really flaky, I mean, vulnerable, and er, I was just a kid, with er, learning difficulties, yeah, that's right, and I should have had my Mom with me, and er, if they knew I was a pathological liar, then they should have made sure I had a lawyer who could make me SHUT UP, instead of incriminating myself. Yeah, that's it.

Anyway who cares about Patrick when you've got a US citizen who was supposed to have been met at the airport by President Obama, but never mind one got Trump to pay half my legal fees anyway. What a shnorrer, thought he could buy my vote. Der!
In tort law in the US there is a concept called comparative and contributory negligence. My guess is that there is something similar in the UK. The concept is about measuring the responsibilities of the parties involved.

I don't think anyone here PGP or PIP that doesn't believe that Patrick suffered damages as the result of his early morning arrest, incarceration and that his bar was kept closed for an extended period of time. And while it is arguable that Amanda may bare some responsibility I think it is very clear that the vast majority of damages that Patrick suffered were caused by the authorities and not Amanda.

As much as Vixen tries to blame Amanda and absolve the authorities, it simply is not reasonable. The question is how much is Amanda responsible and how much are the authorities responsible?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:17 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In tort law in the US there is a concept called comparative and contributory negligence. My guess is that there is something similar in the UK. The concept is about measuring the responsibilities of the parties involved.

I don't think anyone here PGP or PIP that doesn't believe that Patrick suffered damages as the result of his early morning arrest, incarceration and that his bar was kept closed for an extended period of time. And while it is arguable that Amanda may bare some responsibility I think it is very clear that the vast majority of damages that Patrick suffered were caused by the authorities and not Amanda.

As much as Vixen tries to blame Amanda and absolve the authorities, it simply is not reasonable. The question is how much is Amanda responsible and how much are the authorities responsible?
That was exactly my point 5 years ago when I was a guilter of calunnia. It was/is simply obvious that Mignini/Napoleoni bore/bear the lion's share of responsibility for Lumumba's plight.

Five years ago I had to be convinced that in essence AK bore no responsibility. Strangely, it was reading the PGP-translation of the Griffin/Mignini interview for CNN in 2010 that convinced me. Mignini et al., were simply getting the answers from Knox that they wanted, they just needed to get her to "buckle". Which she did.

"She buckled and told us what we already knew," was the way they had put it, and they had no problem later that day saying that the case had been closed - as of Nov 6, 2007. The problem? The case that the cops/prosecutor's closed upon bore no relation to the forensics - until Rudy Guede came on the scene two weeks later.

And Guede's first unrehearsed, secretly recorded analysis of the case? "Amanda had nothing to do with it." The rest was 7 1/2 years of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:04 AM   #430
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I always have to laugh when the PGP blame Amanda for Le Chic's closing. TMofMK states:

Quote:
As a result of the police investigation, Le Chic was closed for three months, with a result that Patrick eventually went out of business.
This is not true.
The bar was on financially shaky ground already as it had only been open for two months before the murder. It had failed to draw the crowd it needed which was the university students. This was the reason Lumumba had hired Amanda in the first place; to draw in this vital clientele. Under any circumstances, it should have been closed for the two weeks Lumumba was in jail at the maximum. One has to ask why was it closed for a further two and a half months? Certainly not due to the "police investigation" as TMofMK claims. It was clear after 2 weeks that Lumumba was not involved in the murder and his bar was not connected to the crime scene in any way.

I suspect that there is a connection between the extended closure of the bar and Lumumba's 180 degree turn in his description of his interrogation. He goes from being kicked, punched, hit on the head and called "a dirty black" to being "treated well".
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:18 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
That was exactly my point 5 years ago when I was a guilter of calunnia. It was/is simply obvious that Mignini/Napoleoni bore/bear the lion's share of responsibility for Lumumba's plight.

Five years ago I had to be convinced that in essence AK bore no responsibility. Strangely, it was reading the PGP-translation of the Griffin/Mignini interview for CNN in 2010 that convinced me. Mignini et al., were simply getting the answers from Knox that they wanted, they just needed to get her to "buckle". Which she did.

"She buckled and told us what we already knew," was the way they had put it, and they had no problem later that day saying that the case had been closed - as of Nov 6, 2007. The problem? The case that the cops/prosecutor's closed upon bore no relation to the forensics - until Rudy Guede came on the scene two weeks later.

And Guede's first unrehearsed, secretly recorded analysis of the case? "Amanda had nothing to do with it." The rest was 7 1/2 years of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I agree with you Bill. But Vixen talks as if the authorities are not responsible at all. As if they shouldn't be accountable for checking Amanda's story before arresting Patrick. As if they aren't accountable for quickly absolving him. As if they aren't accountable for keeping his bar closed.

One also can't ignore the statements where they admit to applying pressure on Amanda until she buckled and told them what they already knew. As if they didn't have preconceived ideas.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:12 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I always have to laugh when the PGP blame Amanda for Le Chic's closing. TMofMK states:



This is not true.
The bar was on financially shaky ground already as it had only been open for two months before the murder. It had failed to draw the crowd it needed which was the university students. This was the reason Lumumba had hired Amanda in the first place; to draw in this vital clientele. Under any circumstances, it should have been closed for the two weeks Lumumba was in jail at the maximum. One has to ask why was it closed for a further two and a half months? Certainly not due to the "police investigation" as TMofMK claims. It was clear after 2 weeks that Lumumba was not involved in the murder and his bar was not connected to the crime scene in any way.

I suspect that there is a connection between the extended closure of the bar and Lumumba's 180 degree turn in his description of his interrogation. He goes from being kicked, punched, hit on the head and called "a dirty black" to being "treated well".
The really weird thing is that compared to what horror befell Meredith and the Kerchers, and once AK and RS have been absolved with that.....

...... that the PGP PR-guilt campaign is now trying to convince the world that some random Seattleite, hippy chick might be a racist. Think about it, almost by definition it's not for them about the Kerchers anymore, it's about Lumumba - and the current photoshopping campaign and twitter campaign is to shame someone because she is convicted in Italy for having falsely accused an African-Italian of a crime; which is the best-case they can now drone on about.

Because all this is ECHR notwithstanding.

And this is BEFORE actually drilling down for oneself about the interrogations themselves, where at least one Italian judge, Boninsegna, is critical of people like the translator - for not translating, but admitting to manipulating the young accused. And this is also before considering that Knox did not force anyone to run out and arrest Lumumba, I mean they already thought that Amanda was a liar, so why run out and beat the crap out of someone on this liar's say-so?

Is that what the PGP currently are all about? Nothing about the PGP's droning about "she blamed the black guy" stands scrutiny, but even worse - even if all this be true, why aren't they also on about the current US Attorney General for his past racist remarks? Why pick on some (should be) anonymous Seattleite?

Because it's the only thing left for them to hate-on about. How does becoming a victim-warrior for Lumumba help the Kerchers?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:22 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I always have to laugh when the PGP blame Amanda for Le Chic's closing. TMofMK states:

This is not true.
The bar was on financially shaky ground already as it had only been open for two months before the murder. It had failed to draw the crowd it needed which was the university students. This was the reason Lumumba had hired Amanda in the first place; to draw in this vital clientele. Under any circumstances, it should have been closed for the two weeks Lumumba was in jail at the maximum. One has to ask why was it closed for a further two and a half months? Certainly not due to the "police investigation" as TMofMK claims. It was clear after 2 weeks that Lumumba was not involved in the murder and his bar was not connected to the crime scene in any way.

I suspect that there is a connection between the extended closure of the bar and Lumumba's 180 degree turn in his description of his interrogation. He goes from being kicked, punched, hit on the head and called "a dirty black" to being "treated well".
I've always been curious about why the bar remained closed after Patrick was released. Was it really that the authorities kept it closed or did Patrick just not reopen it? Why do we believe that the authorities just didn't let him reopen?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:34 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The really weird thing is that compared to what horror befell Meredith and the Kerchers, and once AK and RS have been absolved with that.....

...... that the PGP PR-guilt campaign is now trying to convince the world that some random Seattleite, hippy chick might be a racist. Think about it, almost by definition it's not for them about the Kerchers anymore, it's about Lumumba - and the current photoshopping campaign and twitter campaign is to shame someone because she is convicted in Italy for having falsely accused an African-Italian of a crime; which is the best-case they can now drone on about.

Because all this is ECHR notwithstanding.

And this is BEFORE actually drilling down for oneself about the interrogations themselves, where at least one Italian judge, Boninsegna, is critical of people like the translator - for not translating, but admitting to manipulating the young accused. And this is also before considering that Knox did not force anyone to run out and arrest Lumumba, I mean they already thought that Amanda was a liar, so why run out and beat the crap out of someone on this liar's say-so?

Is that what the PGP currently are all about? Nothing about the PGP's droning about "she blamed the black guy" stands scrutiny, but even worse - even if all this be true, why aren't they also on about the current US Attorney General for his past racist remarks? Why pick on some (should be) anonymous Seattleite?

Because it's the only thing left for them to hate-on about. How does becoming a victim-warrior for Lumumba help the Kerchers?
I agree. It was never "for" Meredith or the Kerchers. They've convinced themselves their hateful campaign is somehow "all for Meredith". It makes them feel morally superior to all the PIP who "knowingly defend murderers". It's nothing more than a self-serving excuse. It was about Amanda, and to a lesser degree, Raffaele. Guede barely gets a mention from them. I would love to see a really good psychological study on what makes them tick.

I find it amusing in a sad sort of way that Amanda is now being targeted as a racist. If she was such a racist, why would she have gone to work for Lumumba in the first place? Even more implausible is that she would invite Guede over to her place or to engage in sexual assault with her. As a racist, she would have had nothing to do with Guede or Lumumba. But, hey, why let logic get in the way of a good smear campaign?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:58 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree. It was never "for" Meredith or the Kerchers. They've convinced themselves their hateful campaign is somehow "all for Meredith". It makes them feel morally superior to all the PIP who "knowingly defend murderers". It's nothing more than a self-serving excuse. It was about Amanda, and to a lesser degree, Raffaele. Guede barely gets a mention from them. I would love to see a really good psychological study on what makes them tick.

I find it amusing in a sad sort of way that Amanda is now being targeted as a racist. If she was such a racist, why would she have gone to work for Lumumba in the first place? Even more implausible is that she would invite Guede over to her place or to engage in sexual assault with her. As a racist, she would have had nothing to do with Guede or Lumumba. But, hey, why let logic get in the way of a good smear campaign?
PGP like to play the race card when attacking Amanda. They claim Amanda named Lumumba because was a racist. PGP don't see the contradictions in accusing Amanda of being a racist. They claim Amanda hated black people but helped a black man Rudy Guede rape and murder a white woman and then covered up for him. As the post above has shown the supposedly racist Amanda was willing to work for a black man. In his interview to the Daily Mail Lumumba said he was called a dirty black. PGP are strangely silent about the racial abuse Lumumba described.

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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:16 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've always been curious about why the bar remained closed after Patrick was released. Was it really that the authorities kept it closed or did Patrick just not reopen it? Why do we believe that the authorities just didn't let him reopen?
It makes more sense that it was kept closed by the police rather than Lumumba himself. For financial reasons, it would be logical that he would have reopened it ASAP after his release rather than keep it closed for two and a half months before doing so.

It's interesting to note that Lumumba accused the police of racism in a World News Sept. 2011 interview:

Quote:
If she had picked a Spanish or French citizen -- a white person -- the police would have spent more time thinking about it," he said.
I think his statement has some merit.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:17 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
PGP like to play the race card when attacking Amanda. They claim Amanda named Lumumba because was a racist. PGP don't see the contradictions in accusing Amanda of being a racist. They claim Amanda hated black people but helped a black man Rudy Guede rape and murder a white woman and then covered up for him. As the post above has shown the supposedly racist Amanda was willing to work for a black man. In his interview to the Daily Mail Lumumba said he was called a dirty black. PGP are strangely silent about the racial abuse Lumumba described.
Well said. The racism wasn't Amanda's it was the Perugia authorities.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:46 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It makes more sense that it was kept closed by the police rather than Lumumba himself. For financial reasons, it would be logical that he would have reopened it ASAP after his release rather than keep it closed for two and a half months before doing so.

It's interesting to note that Lumumba accused the police of racism in a World News Sept. 2011 interview:



I think his statement has some merit.
In some countries one would assume that what was needed was a backhander (bribe) to the appropriate official to expedite the processing of the paper work to allow the bar to reopen after it was closed.

Of course this would not be the case in Italy? http://www.business-anti-corruption....profiles/italy
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:53 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In some countries one would assume that what was needed was a backhander (bribe) to the appropriate official to expedite the processing of the paper work to allow the bar to reopen after it was closed.

Of course this would not be the case in Italy? http://www.business-anti-corruption....profiles/italy
He could have used the 70,000 euros he received for his Nov 2007 story to the DM. You know, the one where he "fired Foxy Knoxy".

When 1/3 of citizens believe the police are corrupt, there's a big problem.

From your link:

Quote:
One third of citizens perceive the police to be corrupt and the same percentage of surveyed citizens believe that bribery and abuse of power are common among police officials

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Old 22nd April 2017, 02:08 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In some countries one would assume that what was needed was a backhander (bribe) to the appropriate official to expedite the processing of the paper work to allow the bar to reopen after it was closed.

Of course this would not be the case in Italy? http://www.business-anti-corruption....profiles/italy
Planigale, thanks for the link.

Here are some brief excerpts from it:

" Almost half of the surveyed households perceive the judiciary to be corrupt and more than one quarter of citizens believe that abuse of power and bribery are widespread among the courts."

"One third of citizens perceive the police to be corrupt and the same percentage of surveyed citizens believe that bribery and abuse of power are common among police officials."

http://www.business-anti-corruption....profiles/italy

I am unsure if the surveys referred to in the link measured "corruption" as solely related to business or financial criminal corruption or also included non-business and non-financial criminal corruption.
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