ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Theresa May , uk elections , uk politics

Reply
Old 21st April 2017, 06:03 AM   #401
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,384
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Furthermore, 64% of people believe that a 'hard Brexit would respect the result of the referendum', only one point below the 'Canada-style' deal which includes free trade. Kind of makes a mockery of the significance of your 'two-thirds' claim.
Considering I would also think that 'hard Brexit would respect the result of the referendum', that's hardly surprising. After all, the referendum simply asked if we should leave or not.

I also consider a hard Brexit to be the worst choice.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:05 AM   #402
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,230
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is this different than what newspapers have been doing for decades? I can see how the internet helps with getting the right information to the right people but that effect isn't going to go away over time.

I think it's much more concentrated. Yes, newspapers have been doing it for ages, but, if you wanted to see pictures, you'd have to watch the evening news from one of, realistically in the UK two channels. (these days there's also the option of getting 'news' from sky, of course) Watching the evening news then forced one to at least be aware of things that one isn't interested in or that might run contrary to one's worldview.

Now there's no need whatsoever for any of us to leave our cosy cocoons of personalised information. We can get all the visuals we want with a commentator biased ot fit our particular worldview and never have to encounter anything that might be uncomfortable enough to cause reconsideration.
__________________
Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:08 AM   #403
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Considering I would also think that 'hard Brexit would respect the result of the referendum', that's hardly surprising. After all, the referendum simply asked if we should leave or not.

I also consider a hard Brexit to be the worst choice.
So that's fine, you believe in a mandate for Brexit. Everybody (who expresses an opinion) has an ideal scenario and everybody has their best case and worst case scenario. That has nothing to do with a mandate, which was the issue being disputed.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:24 AM   #404
DreadNiK
A typical atypical
 
DreadNiK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by baron View Post

Remoaners
*snigger*
__________________
Question Everything - Just not always out loud...

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
DreadNiK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:36 AM   #405
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,084
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think it's much more concentrated. Yes, newspapers have been doing it for ages, but, if you wanted to see pictures, you'd have to watch the evening news from one of, realistically in the UK two channels. (these days there's also the option of getting 'news' from sky, of course) Watching the evening news then forced one to at least be aware of things that one isn't interested in or that might run contrary to one's worldview.

Now there's no need whatsoever for any of us to leave our cosy cocoons of personalised information. We can get all the visuals we want with a commentator biased ot fit our particular worldview and never have to encounter anything that might be uncomfortable enough to cause reconsideration.
Sounds right but again that's a factor of what is being communicated rather than how it is being communicated (the how is just facilitating the targetting) which is why I'm not sure that it goes away over time.

I'm not even sure the TV effect has gone away so much as we have just got used to it so it seems like a normal thing.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:41 AM   #406
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,230
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Sounds right but again that's a factor of what is being communicated rather than how it is being communicated (the how is just facilitating the targetting) which is why I'm not sure that it goes away over time.

I'm not even sure the TV effect has gone away so much as we have just got used to it so it seems like a normal thing.

Oh, I'm dealing in speculation here, I've no idea how to demonstrate it.
__________________
Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:52 AM   #407
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,075
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Maybe if you stuck to the figures in the report without trying to re-analyse them using laughably biased 'techniques'? And you talk about spin.
On the other hand, my pseudonym here is my actual job title, so I'll wager I know my way around interpreting data more than you think you do.

Quote:
The doomsday scenario is always just around the corner. When it doesn't play out that doesn't matter because it's still just around the corner! Remoaners put me in mind of the End of Times crowd, always predicting the end of the world yet totally unphased when their dates pass unnoticed, concentrating instead on the next date when Armageddon will really happen, honestly!
"Doomsday scenario" is your hyperbole, not mine. People, though, will lose their jobs, and many more will suffer all manner of "new" inconveniences and expenses as a result.

Quote:
You seem to have magicked this figure out of nothing and summarised a cherry-picked portion of the explanation to fit your biases.
No, that's you not understanding some fairly basic numbers/options:

16% = "It is more important for Britain to have control over EU immigration into Britain than to keep free trade"
24% = "It is more important to ensure Britain can trade freely with the EU without EU barriers than it is to control EU immigration"
40% = "It is a false choice - it is posible to BOTH control EU immigration into Britain AND to keep free trade with the EU"
19% = "Not sure"

If 24% place free trade over immigration controls, and 40% put free trade on an equal footing as immigration controls, it's hardly "magick" to state that the combined 64% - i.e. roughly two-thirds - see free trade as necessary. That said, the inclusion of "It is a false choice" in one option is a pretty textbook example of a manipulative question.

Quote:
What it boils down to is everybody wants the best possible outcome, that's hardly surprising, but it's not how negotiation works. Indeed, the report states this:

When you look at the figures overall they tell a very different story. The fourth graphic shows that 52% of people think 'TM's Brexit deal would be good for Britain' and 61% believe that her deal 'would respect the result of the referendum.' Furthermore, 64% of people believe that a 'hard Brexit would respect the result of the referendum', only one point below the 'Canada-style' deal which includes free trade. Kind of makes a mockery of the significance of your 'two-thirds' claim.
Those answers are pretty much meaningless, given that nobody knows yet what "TM's Brexit deal" actually will be. Whether it "respects the result of the referendum" also means little. The referendum was on whetehr teh UK should remain a member of the EU. The end of membership can taken many different forms, all of which would techinically "respect the result of the referendum" as long as membership did in fact end. Obviously a hard Brexit will "respect the result of the referendum," but it will be an utterly **** deal. A soft Brexit would equally "respect the result of the referendum," but would have less negatives than a hard Brexit.

Quote:
So you can't answer, then.
No, I thought sarcasm was an appropriate response to your apparent ignorance about Le Pen's views of the EU. Le Pen favours Frexit, so obviously Brexit would be a "dry run" for what she wants to do in her own country.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st April 2017 at 06:58 AM.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 06:57 AM   #408
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,075
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So that's fine, you believe in a mandate for Brexit. Everybody (who expresses an opinion) has an ideal scenario and everybody has their best case and worst case scenario. That has nothing to do with a mandate, which was the issue being disputed.
13 people wanting a vague something different, for every 12 people wanting a more tangible something else, is a techincal majority, not a mandate.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st April 2017 at 06:58 AM.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 07:21 AM   #409
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
On the other hand, my pseudonym here is my actual job title, so I'll wager I know my way around interpreting data more than you think you do.
Clearly you do not. Maybe management beckons?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"Doomsday scenario" is your hyperbole, not mine. People, though, will lose their jobs, and many more will suffer all manner of "new" inconveniences and expenses as a result.
Where's your evidence of a net negative result of Brexit?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, that's you not understanding some fairly basic numbers/options:

16% = "It is more important for Britain to have control over EU immigration into Britain than to keep free trade"
24% = "It is more important to ensure Britain can trade freely with the EU without EU barriers than it is to control EU immigration"
40% = "It is a false choice - it is posible to BOTH control EU immigration into Britain AND to keep free trade with the EU"
19% = "Not sure"

If 24% place free trade over immigration controls, and 40% put free trade on an equal footing as immigration controls, it's hardly "magick" to state that the combined 64% - i.e. roughly two-thirds - see free trade as necessary. That said, the inclusion of "It is a false choice" in one option is a pretty textbook example of a manipulative question.
You have misrepresented the entire data set (not to mention using a 'manipulative question' as the primary source of your argument).

Start with the 24%. They did not say we must have free trade, although many will probably believe that, they simply stated it was more important than immigration. Some might not want immigration restricted at all and see free trade as a nice-to-have but ultimately no big deal. They would fall under the 24% header too.

Your misrepresentation of the 40% is even more pronounced. This group said it would be possible to have both immigration restrictions and free trade. They made no comment whatsoever on whether they thought free trade was important to them, or even a factor.

So your 'two thirds' figure is entirely unsupported by the data.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Those answers are pretty much meaningless, given that nobody knows yet what "TM's Brexit deal" actually will be.
So the actual figures in the report are meaningless but the ones you make up are gospel. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Whether it "respects the result of the referendum" also means little.
No, it is the key fact in relation to my point you disputed, that being it's a mandate for government negotiation resulting in Brexit.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The referendum was on whetehr teh UK should remain a member of the EU. The end of membership can taken many different forms, all of which would techinically "respect the result of the referendum" as long as membership did in fact end. Obviously a hard Brexit will "respect the result of the referendum," but it will be an utterly **** deal. A soft Brexit would equally "respect the result of the referendum," but would have less negatives than a hard Brexit.
So you say. Why would I believe this?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, I thought sarcasm was an appropriate response to your apparent ignorance about Le Pen's views of the EU. Le Pen favours Frexit, so obviously Brexit would be a "dry run" for what she wants to do in her own country.
So what? What France goes and does has no impact on Brexit. I ask again, what he Le Pen got to do with Brexit?
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.

Last edited by baron; 21st April 2017 at 07:23 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 07:38 AM   #410
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,124
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Point 4 shows why. A clear majority, 40% of the electorate, thinks UK can secure a free trade deal to it's liking while achieving control over immigration. The fact this would cause the EU to disintegrate doesn't seem to register with them.

McHrozni
Perhaps they just don't feel obligated to keep the EU together on the EU's terms.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:06 AM   #411
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,075
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Clearly you do not. Maybe management beckons?
Meanwhile you will keep on with your boringly predictable and cack-brained arguments that we can have our cake, eat it, and save a bit for later.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:09 AM   #412
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Meanwhile you will keep on with your boringly predictable and cack-brained arguments that we can have our cake, eat it, and save a bit for later.
That option is only available for those who positively engage and try to make it work. For the rest, their cake will always taste like ****.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:22 AM   #413
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,075
Originally Posted by baron View Post
That option is only available for those who positively engage and try to make it work.
Yes, I daresay people like you will continue to delude yourselves.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:38 AM   #414
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,084
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Perhaps they just don't feel obligated to keep the EU together on the EU's terms.
They should probably work on the assumption that the EU does though.

Public support for unrealistic outcomes isn't a mandate for anything except maybe investing in schools.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 07:21 PM   #415
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,124
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
They should probably work on the assumption that the EU does though.
So? It's the EU's job to bring that consideration to the table. There's nothing to be gained by conceding points of dispute before negotiations have even started--before the points of dispute have even been declared.

ETA: It's like you're trying to hypothetically resolve the entire dispute in the EU's favor, before it's even properly begun, so that you can then use your hypothetical resolution to prove that the dispute should never have been raised in the first place.

Last edited by theprestige; 21st April 2017 at 07:24 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 07:41 PM   #416
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,254
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

ETA: It's like you're trying to hypothetically resolve the entire dispute in the EU's favor, before it's even properly begun, so that you can then use your hypothetical resolution to prove that the dispute should never have been raised in the first place.
This.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:53 PM   #417
MCel58
Demented Hen
 
MCel58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 952
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So? It's the EU's job to bring that consideration to the table. There's nothing to be gained by conceding points of dispute before negotiations have even started--before the points of dispute have even been declared.

ETA: It's like you're trying to hypothetically resolve the entire dispute in the EU's favor, before it's even properly begun, so that you can then use your hypothetical resolution to prove that the dispute should never have been raised in the first place.
The EU have already brought their considerations to the table in the form of the guidelines for their side of the negotiations and a sizeable vote in the EU parliament so we are no longer talking in hypotheticals. They are clear that the EU team is negotiating the departure of the U.K. from the EU and will not even discuss any form of trade deal until issues such as budget commitments and existing citizen rights and placement of agencies, the NI agreement and border, Gibraltar etc etc have been decided on and significant progress has been made. You can try and ignore these things but the terms that the EU are prepared to negotiate on have been set. If TM believes that getting another mandate from the country is going to somehow change these terms then she is as delusional as most other Brexiteers.

Last edited by MCel58; 21st April 2017 at 09:04 PM.
MCel58 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 11:28 PM   #418
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 4,947
UK: I'm leaving you.
EU: So sorry for you. OK.
UK: When I leave I'll slam the door.
EU: Par for our friendship so far. And?
UK: I've left!!!! Article five-oh, baby! You don't care, so there!
EU: What about the furniture and the children?
UK: I'll through fiscal stones at your house, btw.
EU: What say we finish the divorce first?
UK: Uh, what say, a little sex once in a while?
EU: Out of the question.
UK: I'll encourage your other friends to hate you, too.
EU: Please concentrate on packing your things.
UK: Gimme some snooky!
EU: OK, so now I've had to kick you in your "rocks" of Gibraltar. Please stop!
UK: I'm throwing a hate-you party (aka "election")!! Yay for me.
EU: So glad for you. OK. Leave.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time on videogaming.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 12:07 AM   #419
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,084
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So? It's the EU's job to bring that consideration to the table. There's nothing to be gained by conceding points of dispute before negotiations have even started--before the points of dispute have even been declared.

ETA: It's like you're trying to hypothetically resolve the entire dispute in the EU's favor, before it's even properly begun, so that you can then use your hypothetical resolution to prove that the dispute should never have been raised in the first place.
Well that's fine and dandy but misses the point. Feel free to want and try to get whatever you feel is the best outcome but if 40% of people support Brexit on the belief that they can get that then it's not a mandate to deliver a Brexit that doesn't get that outcome.

The answer in the survey doesn't talk about what they might prefer but rather what they think is that case and speaks to the blind optimism or poor understanding of the issue on the part of Brexiteers.

Oh and i hate the idea that this is even packaged as being in the EU favour because the EU position is in the UKs favour too. It's the Brexiteers who are working against the UK here.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 12:16 AM   #420
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,538
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
UK: I'm leaving you.
EU: So sorry for you. OK.
UK: When I leave I'll slam the door.
EU: Par for our friendship so far. And?
UK: I've left!!!! Article five-oh, baby! You don't care, so there!
EU: What about the furniture and the children?
UK: I'll through fiscal stones at your house, btw.
EU: What say we finish the divorce first?
UK: Uh, what say, a little sex once in a while?
EU: Out of the question.
UK: I'll encourage your other friends to hate you, too.
EU: Please concentrate on packing your things.
UK: Gimme some snooky!
EU: OK, so now I've had to kick you in your "rocks" of Gibraltar. Please stop!
UK: I'm throwing a hate-you party (aka "election")!! Yay for me.
EU: So glad for you. OK. Leave.
Inane, inaccurate, and in the wrong thread.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don

That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 12:16 AM   #421
MCel58
Demented Hen
 
MCel58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 952
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
UK: I'm leaving you.
EU: So sorry for you. OK.
UK: When I leave I'll slam the door.
EU: Par for our friendship so far. And?
UK: I've left!!!! Article five-oh, baby! You don't care, so there!
EU: What about the furniture and the children?
UK: I'll through fiscal stones at your house, btw.
EU: What say we finish the divorce first?
UK: Uh, what say, a little sex once in a while?
EU: Out of the question.
UK: I'll encourage your other friends to hate you, too.
EU: Please concentrate on packing your things.
UK: Gimme some snooky!
EU: OK, so now I've had to kick you in your "rocks" of Gibraltar. Please stop!
UK: I'm throwing a hate-you party (aka "election")!! Yay for me.
EU: So glad for you. OK. Leave.
MCel58 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 12:35 AM   #422
McHrozni
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,752
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Perhaps they just don't feel obligated to keep the EU together on the EU's terms.
Sure, but EU does. It gets a vote just as UK does. Expect EU to prioritize itself over UK. The answer would require EU to dismantle itself to serve the UK, which is implausible to say the least.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 12:40 AM   #423
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,084
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This.
So if and when May fails to achieve that what then? She no longer has a mandate from those 40% of people.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 02:40 AM   #424
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well that's fine and dandy but misses the point. Feel free to want and try to get whatever you feel is the best outcome but if 40% of people support Brexit on the belief that they can get that then it's not a mandate to deliver a Brexit that doesn't get that outcome.
I've already explained about the 40% figure that's being bandied about. It does not show that 40% of people only support Brexit on the condition they get free trade and restricted immigration. In fact, it explicity states that this is not the case

Originally Posted by poll
When we asked the 40% what they would prefer if they were forced to choose, they split evenly between immigration and trade.
Using figures that are demonstrably incorrect does not help your case.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 03:58 AM   #425
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,420
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
My issue is not with Corbyn's being left wing, it's with his being inept and having a huge pile of dirty laundry just waiting to be aired in the press.
As the UK press currently stands it is quite happy to take his clean laundry, pour chocolate sauce on it and then air it.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 04:03 AM   #426
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,420
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<sigh> Looks like the SUN and the DAILY MAIL have already started their election campaign.

Let's face it, it was these two papers that swung it for BREXIT. One is owned by an Australian who lives in the USA (iirc) and the other by an Non-Domestic Resident (someone who gives his principle address as abroad to avoid UK Income Tax).
I believe he is now a US citizen as the American's have rules preventing foriegn nationals owning their press.

The other actually inhefited his non-dom status, along with a title, from his father. Avoiding taxes is apparently a family tradition.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 04:27 AM   #427
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,538
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
As the UK press currently stands it is quite happy to take his clean laundry, pour chocolate sauce on it and then air it.
What a poor put-upon martyr he is. He must have expected to be treated differently from every other political leader, and it must be so disappointing not to be given special kid-glove handling. One doesn't need the press to slate him, when you can hear the actual words coming from his lips.

Oh, and he doesn't need the press saying stuff about him to make his incompetence clear to millions. One only needs listen to what he tries to say, and how often he fails to say it, to see his incompetence. Further, you look at the lightweight rabble he has to surround himself with to see that Labour's third team aren't up to the job of running anything at all. He can't even inspire some of their actual talent to work with him, so why would he expect anyone outside his little group of acolytes to vote for him, or to write nice things about him? Once and for all, his standing in the opinion polls, his standing with the PLP, and his result in the General Election are not the fault of the press.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don

That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 04:53 AM   #428
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 76,988
Everyone I've spoken to about the GE has been tired of politics and elections. I predict we are going to see a very low turnout , which will favour the Tories.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 05:54 AM   #429
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 8,927
I'll be away on holiday on June 8th. Normally I would apply for a postal vote, but at the moment I see little point as there is no-one I want to vote for. Anyone want to try to convince me otherwise?

I'm a pro-Europe left leaning pensioner who usually votes tactically for the Lib Dems as I live in the sort of constituency where you could stick a blue rosette on a pig and it would get elected.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 08:34 AM   #430
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Round here is a sea of yellow- Lib Dems. The irony is that if it weren't a prosperous, semi-rural community with next to no immigration, most of these would vote UKIP or Conservative. Nothing wrong with that, of course, we mostly vote for what benefits us.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 09:12 AM   #431
Ian Osborne
JREF Kid
Tagger
 
Ian Osborne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,382
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Round here is a sea of yellow- Lib Dems. The irony is that if it weren't a prosperous, semi-rural community with next to no immigration, most of these would vote UKIP or Conservative. Nothing wrong with that, of course, we mostly vote for what benefits us.
Where are you? Newton Abbot here, and I presume you're somewhere close.
__________________
"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
Ian Osborne is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 09:23 AM   #432
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Where are you? Newton Abbot here, and I presume you're somewhere close.
Long way away South Lakes.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 05:33 PM   #433
Seismosaurus
Illuminator
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,869
Well here's an interesting election promise : Labour says they will create four more bank holidays.

Is that really what the UK economy needs right now? More holidays?
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 05:58 PM   #434
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,721
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Well here's an interesting election promise : Labour says they will create four more bank holidays.

Is that really what the UK economy needs right now? More holidays?
A bit misleading. One extra holiday for England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The UK has around the same number of public holidays as Australia My state added an extra one (for AFL Grand Final eve) a couple of years ago without the social fabric being torn apart.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 06:07 PM   #435
Seismosaurus
Illuminator
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,869
Then it's a good job nobody suggested that it would tear the social fabric apart, really. We all dodged a bullet on that one.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 06:09 PM   #436
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,721
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Then it's a good job nobody suggested that it would tear the social fabric apart, really. We all dodged a bullet on that one.
Oh come on. I was matching your hyperbole (four extra holidays) with my own.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 06:42 PM   #437
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,124
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Well here's an interesting election promise : Labour says they will create four more bank holidays.

Is that really what the UK economy needs right now? More holidays?
US businesses generally ignore "bank holidays" in favor of striking some balance between giving employees an expected number of recognized holidays and economy-stimulating (and profit-making) work days. Naturally quite a a few bank holidays are observed, but the general economy ticks on regardless of how many vanity days the government obliges itself to observe (and the banking industry for whatever reason sees fit to indulge). Does the British economy really depend so much on the government's power to declare "holidays"? How feudal.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2017, 07:18 PM   #438
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,721
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
US businesses generally ignore "bank holidays" in favor of striking some balance between giving employees an expected number of recognized holidays and economy-stimulating (and profit-making) work days. Naturally quite a a few bank holidays are observed, but the general economy ticks on regardless of how many vanity days the government obliges itself to observe (and the banking industry for whatever reason sees fit to indulge). Does the British economy really depend so much on the government's power to declare "holidays"? How feudal.
Probably veering off-topic. Obviously a lot of people work on declared public holidays, but in Australia, and the UK I think, employers have to pay much higher rates, meaning some small businesses may not turn a profit on these days.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2017, 01:51 AM   #439
Mid
Muse
 
Mid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 940
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A bit misleading. One extra holiday for England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The UK has around the same number of public holidays as Australia My state added an extra one (for AFL Grand Final eve) a couple of years ago without the social fabric being torn apart.
Is it just 1 extra my reading of that article, which is possibly wrong, is that all 4 would be holidays in the various nations?

My objection to it would be that it would just add to the load of holidays in March/April when the weather is cold, damp and depressing rather than adding some in June/July when the weather's slightly less cold and damp but equally depressing
Mid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2017, 02:06 AM   #440
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,084
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Well here's an interesting election promise : Labour says they will create four more bank holidays.

Is that really what the UK economy needs right now? More holidays?
We had extra holidays for all that royal nonsense so yeah we can cope with some extra time off.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.